Comments for Cat box 9
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here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a
substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos
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B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Hi, it's B. again.
I can't keep up with so many posts, but I'm thinking about you, and saving the posts, for slow reading back on my computer.
It was my birthday on Friday, October 27, so now I really feel run down. I'm so old (39) Gee, I wish I was that "old"!, and still in the same struggle - dear H did not even meet a therapist once (not really his fault), so I can't really TALK to him. He is very helpful, very loving and almost not abusive, but I still do much more than he does and I feel soooooo tired and so un-helped.
Dr. Irene, I wanted to let you know that St. John's wort is NOT for pregnant or lactating women. Probably unnecessary info for most on this site, but very relevant for me: I am nursing, and I want another child... (can't seem to get it! I think my stomach has still too much stress and anger to make room for a baby...). Yes. NO medication just about is for pregnant or lactating women. That's why it's important to check with your doctor before taking anything!
I love you all, and I'll be back (poor you...). B.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Dear B, Hi the rest,
Gee B, Lucky us! We've missed you. I can't chat right now. Dan just found out that the trip out of town is a 14 day assignment and he needs food and clothes packed as they will be staying in cabins. Busy, busy and busy today.
Happy Birthday B. We have/had a lot of birthdays this month. Happy Birthday to the Cat Box.
Got to run. I read the posts and Dr. Irene and Trubble, Glad you are here. Thanks.
Love to everyone and Happy Day today, you are all in my thoughts.
Love,
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Dear all Not feeling too well after a day with C. Went to his place for breakfast as he had invited me. Didn't feel welcome though. I decided that could very well be my own insecurity, so I sort of ignored the feeling. But no hugs, just a little kiss, and hey are you there already. Made a joke about my new clothes, which I didn't appreciate, so I said I had promised myself to hit him if he would do anything like that. So then I did, laughingly, but even so. Then after breakfast we went for a ride in his new car and after a while he asked me would I like to drive. I did, so far so good. Praised the car etc Then he started how he hated Sundays and how boring going out for a ride was actually. He did say it in general, but I really felt rotten about it. After getting to his house again, I said, sorry I got you stuck with such a boring afternoon, I'll go now, and leave you to do whatever you wanted (I know, blackmail probably, but I really felt bad). No, no he said and started kissing me. We ended up in bed, but I really felt yukkie afterwards when I drove home (he had a dinner appointment elsewhere). I feel very yukkie and haven't the faintest idea how to handle this. It makes me feel all responsible again for him having a nice afternoon, and like it's all my fault if it wasn't. I know I should not see him if I don't feel welcome, but it's so hard to discern whether it are just my own feelings of insecurity, and thus something I should fight, or whether it is him not acting nice and friendly enough. Let's put it this way: If he appeared yukky and insecure, I think you might go out of your way to reassure him. That's not to say you don't have insecurity issues, but, it is likely you are being provoked. Bad feelings anyway and I don't like it. I think I might send him an e-mail and tell him I don't like this kind of behavior,, that it is not very respectful when you're touring with someone on a Sunday, to tell how you hate Sundays and touring on Sundays. Yep. Especially since he knows you and he knows how sensitive you are (and I mean "sensitive" in a GOOD way, as in perceptive.)
Dear Asha, sorry about your one-man turkey dinner. I would have loved to come over, but I don't eat turkey :-). Hope you will be able to work it out. We also have a hard time talking about difficult issues. We either ignore the whole issue or start to kiss and hug, when a difficult subject comes up, so we won't feel so separate. Some thought about Steve's trips and your being annoyed about them. I wonder do you think you get personal issues and work issues mixed up sometimes? Cause I think being annoyed when he makes your work harder by leaving at such short notice, you should tell him so, but don't get it confused with you being angry because of being left alone on a short notice personally. Must be hard to keep the two things separate, cause I can imagine them getting easily entangled. But I think it is very important to keep them separate.
Dear Jay, hope your husband will keep up the good work, who knows.
Love to all of you. I don't have anything uplifting to say right now, so I'll just quit and have a yukkie evening all by myself with a glass of port and the cats. At least they appreciate my company :-).
Hope tomorrow will be brighter.
Love, AJ
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Dear B,
I posted before reading: happy belated birthday and glad to have you back.
Love, AJ Us too!
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Hello, all,
Just want to let you know that I have not disappeared. I've been reading the posts, but haven't felt to talkative. Happy belated birthday, B! Mine was Saturday, and as for being old, how would you like to be 46!? All I can think is "Four more years 'til 50!"
I had an unhappy birthday; failed miserable at disengaging. Plans to be with my parents feel through, and I panicked at the thought of spending an entire day alone with H. I've felt this way lately, I think because of all of the times over the years that I've been trapped away from home with him and his hostility. When I ask him to back off, he escalates, and I've had some awful experiences.
I made the mistake of telling him how I felt and we were on a slippery slope from there. (He'd been so "good," I thought I was safe, so I took the bait when he asked what was wrong).
We did recoup enough to go out to a late lunch, to a mall and bookstore, but when he noticed me crying again after we got home, he ripped me. I was so worn down, I engaged big time. He'd promised before we'd left that he wouldn't do that, and here he was--! I fell apart, sobbing and sobbing between yelling. I'm so embarrassed that I did that!
Today I have a monster tension headache. He apologized and asked me what I wanted him to do; said he'd "try to do better." I broke down again. I've heard that before. He asked me to tell him specifically what I wanted him to do; I did, but as of last night he was still saying that he would not go to therapy unless I paid for it. I won't pay for his therapy; I'm not that desperate! He's got to be more responsible than that! Yes. So, if he asks you what you want him to do, and you spell it out, and he still has a problem, well... Pull away!
Anyway, I feel like a total dud today. I can tell by, among other things, the way I burst into tears so readily, and the way I sob, from way deep down, that I'm near some crisis point. I don't know if he really cares, or not, but I do!
Hope all is okay with everyone else. Lynn, I'm so jealous! Moose in your yard! We had a deer in our backyard a few years ago. Very surprising as we live smack in the middle of town, practically, and it had to have jumped out tall fence. We usually get raccoons and possums. Years ago I heard a racket outside. a mama coon had brought her babies to play on our back porch. I looked out the window to see assorted babies climbing the stair rails and sitting on the window air conditioner!
Take care all,
Becky
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Hi all:
B - nice to hear from you. What if you do your share of the work, and then ask him to pay a housekeeper to cover his share? Would he be open to that?
That was an issue with Steve and I as well, which would have to be resolved if we ever lived together again.
Lynn: Dan is gone for 14 days? How will all of us 'codependents' survive without him?
Just realized I really hate that word - codependent - it's so disempowering.
Dear AJ
<<I feel very yukkie and haven't the faintest idea how to handle this. It makes me feel all responsible again for him having a nice afternoon, and like it's all my fault if it wasn't.>>
What about you? Did *you* have a nice afternoon?
<< I know I should not see him if I don't feel welcome, but it's so hard to discern whether it are just my own feelings of insecurity, and thus something I should fight, or whether it is him not acting nice and friendly enough.>>
You said you felt yukky - think about what makes you feel yukky and whether it makes sense to feel yukky, if you were to look at it closely.
<< Bad feelings anyway and I don't like it. I think I might send him an e-mail and tell him I don't like this kind of behavior,, that it is not very respectful when you're touring with someone on Sunday, to tell how you hate Sundays and touring on Sundays.>>
I don't think that telling him he's disrespectful will help. Think of it from an "I" perspective. I felt unwelcome. I felt uneasy because you were saying you were bored. I was getting mixed messages from you - you hate touring on Sundays, but yet that's what you chose to do with me. I don't enjoy being around you when you say you are bored and disinterested with my company. In future, I won't choose to stay when you say these things.
much more empowering than - You are disrespectful. You make me mad. You are arrogant etc. etc.
<<Dear Asha, sorry about your one-man turkey dinner. I would have loved to come over, but I don't eat turkey :-)>>
Are you vegetarian? I eat birds and fish, but no other kinds of meat. :)
<<Some thought about Steve's trips and your being annoyed about them. I wonder do you think you get personal issues and work issues mixed up sometimes?>>
this is possible. though the trips are a personal choice.
<<Cause I think being annoyed when he makes your work harder by leaving at such short notice, you should tell him so, but don't get it confused with you being angry because of being left alone on a short notice personally.>>
Yes, it's more to do with what I think about once he's gone on such short notice. "Oh no, he was supposed to call so and so" or things like that. I don't have time to think about these things when I'm told at the very last minute.
<< Must be hard to keep the two things separate, cause I can imagine them getting easily entangled. But I think it is very important to keep them separate.>>
Sometimes the trips are personal trips, so there are 2 elements to them, but I agree with you.
<<I don't have anything uplifting to say right now, so I'll just quit and have a yukkie evening all by myself with a glass of port and the cats. At least they appreciate my company :-).>>
Cuz cat-humans are smart!
Or you could come over and have some brussel sprouts and mashed potatoes? And Halloween candy for dessert? Your cats might enjoy the turkey. Think about it, and come on over if you feel like it.
take care all
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Becky
we were posting at the same time. (((hugs)))
It's my birthday too in a couple of weeks. What is it about that, is it our sun signs that put us all in this situation?
Wierd.
hang in there girlie. I'll send some positive vibes your way.
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Another aside.
The trips Steve is taking do help him make money, which he really can use right now, and I understand and support that. I don't think our current issues are really to do with the trips, except that he does forget to ask me if I need anything from him work wise. I just mentioned it because I was trying to examine all the reasons I might have been upset.
I think that there are a whole gamut of issues that I am bothered by. This is where it gets complicated, because it started with one and now there are more issues to deal with.
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
D ear All. This is the fourth time today I've written a long post and somehow managed to lose it - me pressing wrong buttons and not the site. I am just going to say Have a lovely day everyone and happy birthday B. If you are old then I am ancient (45).
and Becky your birthday sounds a bit like mine. I refused to celebrate it as I was so tearful and wound up. Had to give in in the evening as my best friend came round with a cake and meal.
My daughter is still not in touch with me. I got weepy today and had to stop myself buying her things. You can't give rewards to someone who has physically attacked you. I just hope she gets out of this phase again soon and falls out with everyone else.
Still puzzled by my husband. He told me to leave today. Then I said that I would but we needed to discuss it and he refused. Then he made me a cup of tea and has been pleasant since. Actually, I don't think I could really care less. The other weird thing is I put a bill of rights from a book on assertiveness on the door. Usually he would take this down, but this time he hasn't.
He spent the day doing housework...................!!!!!!!!!! even defrosted the fridge. I wish I knew why I feel so unnerved by this. Is he practicing to be on his own? Or does he just want to do his bit and am I being unfair. This has only happened since we have really fallen out.
It makes me feel somehow I am not good enough. Inadequate. Fearful.
Which means the childhood rejection tape is playing again. After all this is the year 2000 and if I can go back to work it will be really helpful if the housework and meals are shared.
Maybe the issue is mine and not his.
My real issue is that both my husband and daughter are throwing all their rage and anger at me and I know I am the scapegoat, But what on earth do you do to not be one?
Not accept their anger. ......How? How do you not be affected by what you find upsetting? Maybe you just get out of the way and cry alone so they can't see.......
Anyway, even if I don't know how, for both my children's sake I am finding out how.
Sorry, another post - ramble. Thinking out in the written word.
Lynn, 14 nights without Dan. It seems ages to me. I'm glad you saw the mooses ?what is the plural of moose? You seem one very strong person.
Dr. Irene, most of my posts were written before your email to me. Trubble if you stow away to England you can stay here and have trout in jam sauce. If Dr Irene explains what jam sauce is. We don't have that here. My parents in law have a whole swimming pool full of trout! love, Jay
So I feel weird. Like I am no longer used to
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000
S1
Jay:
Send your hubby over here, my house could use the cleaning. He can defrost the fridge here too. :)
I would rather have this problem than the opposite. But I'm sure there is a reason for what you are feeling. What do you think his true intentions are? To clean the place, to share the household work, or to push a button? Or maybe something else.
If you can let go of your button around this, you might be able to enjoy it!
Also, I think if you act out of your higher strength (which is obvious that you have from your posts here), it will be harder and harder for you to get 'scapegoat'. Maybe on some level you were accepting their blame, which made it easier for them to blame you.
take care Jay
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
From the songs-stuck-in-one's-head department:
There is a fairly recent song getting much airplay on my usual station that is making me want to cry when I hear it. I think it's called "Wonderful" and I'm not sure which band sings it, but there is this one line in the chorus that just sticks with me:
"Promises mean everything when you're little and the world is so big."
Last time I heard it, I thought of Lynn's NOT MY DOG post.
Being lied to is an icky nasty horrible thing. Especially when it's about something serious. I was fortunate that my parents would never have tried to pull any variant of the not-my-dog thing on me -- admittedly, sometimes things went too far in the other direction, but I do like that I was "the little person" to my parents (especially Dad) even as a baby. And they didn't DO the "now this won't hurt a bit..." or anything like that. No stork stories for me, either. A picture book explaining where babies came from appeared in with the rest of my books at some point when I was fairly little.
I remember feeling sort of offended when, to cover up for putting onion soup (which her kids said they didn't like) into a meat loaf, the woman who usually babysat for me (Mommy #2) told her kids that she put GLUE in it! And they ate it up, literally and figuratively. This just disturbed me somehow; I was seven or eight at the time, and by that age was helping my parents go grocery shopping and make dinner. I was also in wannabe-nun phase and (I don't actually remember doing this, but my mother thinks it's funny and still tells the story) apparently told Mom #2's kids "Be grateful you have a hot meal to sit down to!"
I *was* a self-righteous little brat in those days, I guess. :)
Astrid
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Hi all, the new positive won' t be a scapegoat and will let my husband carry on with the cleaning if he gets a kick out of it new me here.
Thanks Asha. Your words make sense and I am feeling strong.....I will enjoy it. you mean my higher strength is obvious. ....I keep getting told I am strong. I am going to live up to my reputation! I have no idea about my husband's motivation at all. If someone deliberately creates a fog, then they don't want you to see what they are doing.
The blocking thing is what happens all the time between us. He is the actor who continually blocks. Conversations go nowhere.
Dr. Irene. I am starting to like cleaning my own cat boxes. I may even get a cat. :)
Trubble I will feed it trout and jam sauce.
Wow, I have a whole load to feel down about and to be sad about but I am functioning o.k.
I recommend Ginkgo Billboard with Ginseng. In addition to the Kava.
Becky. I don't know if this helps you but my husband can only hurt me if I accept his hurt. You are such a lovely person and I am praying your crisis if it happens is creative.
Scary strong gales here. The train station is shut. Trees down. Floods. Roofs ripped off....The south has no power and people injured. Lots of flood warnings for the rivers down here. I am glad that I live higher up the road than the river is likely to rise. sunshine and showers and less wind for this afternoon. Isn't that like life. So quickly it changes?
Just kept calm in a metaphorical storm; wish I didn't have the feelings inside though. But it feels a good challenge to be coping with them.
Yes, Dr Irene I am changing.........I told you I move fast.
Love to you all, Jay
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene, Trubble and the rest of us. Lynn here and I'm going to be totally selfish and just post two things about me. Good! I've read the rest, the blue pencils and I do have thoughts, cheers, prayers and comments to a bunch, but it's 4 AM and I can't sleep so I'm trying to get healthy.
Dan had to go out of town and wasn't sure how long. Got a call yesterday that it was a 2 week job long ways away and probably not an access to a phone. We do this all the time. Just not like now ..... working here and on us.
Anyhow, we were both doing things yesterday, I mentioned the new tub in the room and over the drain, just not connected. I started cleaning and vacuuming (hoovering :) and I feel myself getting miffed. "Nothing" "Ever" gets finished around here! Stopped that and asked Dan to please get some trim and finish the woodwork, etc. He said OK, so OK. Thought I was ok with it. Then he asked me to please not finish installing the tub till he got home, because he started it and he wanted to finish it. I was fine with that, too. Then he started watering plants and came out and started in on which plants had water in them and which ones didn't and which ones he watered and why he didn't others and on and on and I (I hope this is a form of disengage) said, "Don't do this to me again. I was gone for two weeks and you started in on me and now you are going to be gone for two weeks so please don't start this again." Much better.
He left the room, engaged me a little by asking what I wanted done with the leftover stuffing and I said I didn't care.
Premature maybe Dr. Irene, but I said that there was so little of me left that I didn't need any more of this. I'm ready to get on to the next step. I don't want to spent the rest of my life "on guard" watching for these. Ok, kiss goodnight and don't know what, but this is strange to me, like I'm afraid I'll hurt his feelings (my mother). I felt strangely better, but totally unfamiliar doing this.
Re: Your blue pencil to my October 23rd post. Write down why I I'm (grin, now I'm stuttering on paper) afraid to let go. I'm happier than all the cats in Egypt to let this go. I feel like I've had 4 years of Dan's telling me he'd go to therapy if I'd go with him. He'd do the workbook if I'd help him. He wouldn't read Bradshaw if I couldn't guarantee I would stay with him, because if I didn't promise to stay with him, what was the use of him doing all this work. So I think I've stuck it out trying to help "us." I can't. There is so little of me left that I don't feel like I can help myself tonight (I'll get strong again). I don't want to hold his hand through this, I can't fix this.
If I put this into words, I think I'm starting to resent being the reason he'll do this. I feel like the scarier (sp?) this gets for him the more he lays on me and the more I take on and I don't like feeling like I should be responsible for his mental health. I'm not. This brings up real yukky attached at the hip withdrawals. Right. Because he can't put something on you that you don't accept, but you already see that.
His sister especially, and that is why I love this site. Dan has never shared any of this stuff with anyone but me before. Empathy (can't spell that either) once or twice, but really! I just ain't helping him get over this one and I was elated he got into this with the new lady. I'm happy he said it was ok for him to go without me. I wish I was healthy enough to have told him this 5 years ago.
I know he laid it on me (wrong) and I took it (two wrongs), but in retrospect, my going with him was preferable (in my thinking) than him not going at all and when he went a time or two alone he dropped out. We'd go back and then he'd go once and drop out again.
Getting way too wordy again, but I really have the need to vent. I think I've hated feeling responsible for his well being. I think I resent the "I'll do it for us." I resent the "I'll go if you'll come with me."
You asked why I was afraid to let him go? Just from the gut feelings, I'd be as happy as Trubble eating Salmon if he'd go and stick with it. I think if he goes and when it gets tough and if he starts laying it on me again I say NO and start to clean my own Cat Boxes. (And now he has to cancel for at least 2 more weeks).
I truly don't like feeling like it's my responsibility for US.
Again, I know I took it, but it doesn't mean I liked it.
Brief subject change as I find myself very angry (at myself). One Moose or 13 Moose. Moose is Moose, unless we're talking Catnip moose (the French call it mousse). The same with crèche .... It costs $25 to buy a Nativity Set with the manger. $125 if you buy a Nativity set with a crèche. As for prat. One of my mothers dirtiest words. Tushie as in prat fall.
Ok, enough, back to I'm so angry that I did this to myself. I'm going to be 54 in a couple of weeks (got a bunch here) and I can learn new tricks, but I don't want to waste any more time. I don't want to die of Old Age still posting in the Cat Box.
Moral. I truly hope Dan goes and sticks is out this time. I really think I need my own shrink. If Dan doesn't follow through I may have to see if Trubble wants to hitch his wagon to my broomstick and off we'll go flying with the Blue Angels or something.
Anytime MommyDoc2!
5:23 AM and I still don't feel tired, just strung out ...
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Dr Irene,
Lynn still here wide awake and just re read what you blue penciled to me.
I am so terribly depressed and I think the only way I can explain it is to say that I don't like Dan like this at all. I mean throwing this at me. This doesn't absolve me from taking it, but I think I kept going and kept pressuring and kept pushing is in the hopes that he would go to counseling and stick it out because I really and truly don't like him at all and the more I withdraw when he gets dependent on me, the further I withdraw and it is a vicious circle. Yet because I love him I see the potential and know how good he can be. I simply can't make him good for me (Lord knows, I've tried). He has to make him good for me.
This is a silly thought (maybe), but I feel I've been getting better. The living room looks like a room today and not someone's storage shed. Anyhow, I've been doing things I've neglected for a long time. Could this be threatening to Dan? I'm not an analyst, but is co dependence better than no dependence, because I feel like he's trying to drag me down. Sort of like if I fix my own tub (I can) and clean our own house I won't need him anymore? I can really feel the pressure, yet I don't know what's going on or why. I just don't want to get back into a 3 day depression and I feel myself slipping ... I didn't like the pressure the minute I got home and I don't like the pressure the minute he's leaving. Please go see the shrink without him...
Sorry guys, wallowing in a pity party here and I want to try and talk myself out of it. I haven't forgotten you and you all have my Love and Prayers. I wish someone had my headache and tears. Now that WAS selfish, you do. Poop.
Is this the point Dr. Irene? I don't have to know why he's messin' with me. I just have to know he's messin' with me and know it's not about me? Bingo!
Ok, so where do I go and what do I do here? This feels ? (can't find a word) ?
Love, Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Dr Irene.
I just read your blue pencil on posts 8. I wasn't mad at you about the depression thing at all. Just answering the question I knew you would ask. I didn't mean to exclude you from my love either! Sorry. Nor going to have a guilt trip about screwing that up......
for creche read child care facility. Usually alongside a course.
I wouldn't do the psychology just yet as I would want to take it too far at this point in my life and I just don't think you should get into doing therapy for others if you do it to help get your life sorted. I know I would want to go down that road. (Getting to be the psychologist, I mean). First I need to finish my research MA.
I wasn't going to but now I think I will.
Even if I never submit the thing.
Just for me.........
I am trying hard about my daughter. Still no contact and I have learnt that the only option is for her to stay in a bed and breakfast. it is near where we live and the situation is unlikely to change for a bit. I will give it a week and then write to her. She seems so set on not seeing me just now - but that is according to my husband.
I am ignoring a cat and mouse game now. But I am no longer the mouse so the cat will find it has been chasing air. - Sorry Trubble sure you catch the real thing. Hope this doesn't sound too crazy.
One minute I get treated well and the nest minute I don't as if he can't make up his mind. Mine is made up I am no longer the mouse I have evolved and become a cat too. Only I am choosing to be a pedigree and get treated well. Trubble we can share the trout.. ...
Sorry feeling like playing.......
Oh yes Lynn - I didn't mean Nativity sets!!! We have those too and call them mangers. See my post for Dr. Irene. Now I know about the mooses.
But seriously I think it is time Dan did stand on his own feet and go to the therapy for himself. At least he decided to go to this new therapist originally if you went or not. I really feel for you with the not sleeping bit as I did that 4.am thing or earlier for a long while. (What did we do before the computer?).
It seems to be connected with unresolved anger with me. What I have found is that it helps to have every possible relaxing oil. fragrance, bath oil, candle, pillow with herbs, prayers to read, things to sniff around handy for when I wake up. I got to know about "Judge Judy' shows when I couldn't sleep. Not sure why English TV sees fit to show an American Civil court in the small hours of the morning, but sometimes I couldn't stay mad as the problems seems sometimes at lest a lot more trivial than the ones causing my anger. (Well the one I remember most seemed to involve a dispute about a fish tank).
At last the wind has died down and I have stopped planning to get out my 'Little House on the Prairie' books to see how they survived the weather. Love, Jay/
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Hi all,
Well I've looked quickly through the posts since I am late into today.
The weekend was busy to say the least. Friday I went to my nan's and bought some food from the takeaway. Saturday my daughter dances and then off to the library and things to exchange at the shops. Then the car broke down so no more outings. My young nephew came to stay he kept me busy. He is 2 years old and has more energy than I ever could imagine. Sunday walk and more walking to get my daughter some sneakers.
We went her daddy's house to tell him that we'd be gone a while at the shops in case he came to pick her up. THEN something insightful happened. ANNOYING REALLY!!! You all know I asked my ex to leave my house the other night. Well my daughter said to her daddy, "YOU didn't come around on Friday" He said "Yeah I know, your mom kicked me out on Wednesday so I couldn't." My daughter said "Mommy your naughty, you shouldn't kick him out." I was stuck for words. None came out, I was livid. Why? does it always happen that I ended up being passed the blame????
I said to my daughter when we left her daddy's house. "I didn't kick him out, he had a choice to treat us nicely and not yell at us or the choice to go, his choice so no I didn't kick him out, he was in a mood and so I told him we me and you weren't gonna let him take it out on us."
She said "OH"
I was livid, so livid, I mean now he thinks it was my fault, now where is the lesson in that??? He was meant to realise that I wasn't tolerating his bad mood, now our daughter hasn't helped by helping him to shift the blame on to me. ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!
(She's only 6 years old and she is helping her dad blame me!!!! This makes me feel angry!!!)
When am I gonna stop getting blame for his moodiness??? and to top it all off he grinned and told my daughter, I'll be around on Monday and Wednesday and Friday as usual. AND I never said "NO you won't be". Oh why didn't I say "NO this isn't a good idea" why do I not speak up and say NO, Your not coming around so the next time your in a mood I'll get the blame. YUKKKK I feel YUKK!!
What good has come from all this????
Thanks and hi to you all. Theressa
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
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Dear Cat Box,
Lynn here again and I nearly got caught! Dan came into the TV room all concerned and upset, "Honey, what's the matter, couldn't you sleep?" I told him I just wanted to see him off and to tell him to have a good trip.
Theressa, I'm going to start with you, because I read you last. I'd say Hooray for you. You caught it! Would you have noticed this being done two weeks ago? At least you recognized it.
I think this is one of the toughest lessons for me to learn. I feel like if let my guard down for one minute Dan knows and Zooms in. I think that is what this mornings post was all about. Dr. Irene, We do get out of this stage don't we? I don't want to spend much more time waiting and watching for the next one.
And Theressa, on blame. Why do you always get it? Probably like me, you take it. Next step might be that now that we recognize it we can learn to pass it back.
How did the Birthday party go?
Dear Jay, Are you ok with the weather? Sounds scary, but we get different scary. All in what we're used to. Stay safe and a prayer for the people hurt and homeless. Makes me feel like a poop whining because Dan won't talk to me and people are being blown from their homes.
I'm glad Dr. Irene mentioned an illness that may be wrong with your daughter. Dan's daughter is diagnosed bi polar, yet the Psychologist at the state home thought it was a personality disorder. She is doing well finally and taking her meds and going to the Dr. regularly.
Jay, as for the housecleaning and the presents. Dan would do that. If I got mad and wanted to talk he'd either clean or get me a gift. This is how he thought he was pleasing me and making up. I'd get livid, but it seems that this is how he learned in childhood. Not necessarily bad, just doing the best they know how.
You think I'm strong, how? Because of the moose or because I can live without Dan for 2 weeks? Great question if it is about Dan. I think Dan gets threatened when I do fine without him. I try to reassure him that I do fine because he has me prepared. I was also single for years and learned to do a lot of my own "honey do's" Actually enjoyed tearing out the wall the other day. A crowbar is great therapy for me.
If it's about the moose, we have a healthy respect for them around here. As far as I'm concerned they can do anything they want to. Especially the mama with two 2 two year old calf's. We live in town, too, but also get bear roaming around down here in the garbage cans. We get used to them and give them a wide berth. I'd probably have the big one if I saw an alligator. Now those I'm not used to.
Dear AJ, I'm so sorry you feel so down. I don't blame you. Yuk about the sex. Just doesn't feel loving, does it? I stick to my guns on this one. If I don't feel loved in the kitchen I can't get loving in the bedroom. I do think men can use this as a way of trying to let us know they love us. A while back Dan told me if I'd let him take me back to the bedroom he'd show me how loving he could be. He was serious. I was speechless.
Love the wine and cats therapy. Trubble, do you recommend white or red? I can't do candles. My cats think it's fun to bat at the flame. Wine, cats and a flashlight loses something.
Take care AJ and we've probably all done the same.
Dear Becky, Happy belated Birthday! The moon must be unfavorable for us Scorpio's (and nearly Astrid). Don't know. Maybe when something aligns with another planet things will look better. Wishful thinking, but what the heck. It's our Birthday's and we can wish for whatever we want.
Next time hand him the keyboard and say quit messing with me until you read this.
Our neighbors feed every stray cat in the neighbor hood. Then they started getting this stinky little skunk coming into their porch and sharing. The skunk was fine with the cats. Wasn't fine when he saw people. Did you get pictures of the baby raccoons?
Dear B, SOS. I sure could have used some of your strength last night. Send us some strength and when the hubby's get in a house cleaning mode we'll lend them to you. I swear, some of Dan's cleaning lately has been self defense on his part. I made more progress the last 2 days than I had in the last 2 months. I'm thinking this is subconscious rebellion on my part. Doc? Could be...
Dear Astrid, It sounds like you had pretty healthy parents. My mother still referred to bathroom hygiene as wee and grunty. Even in her 70's. I can't remember her ever calling a period anything but the curse and referred to sex as "daddy tried to get familiar with me." Oh, Boy! :) Here's a Catholic one you should like. She suggested that I get on the pill and since she told me about it she'd take the "sin" for me.
Funny death story, too. Mom was in a coma for about a week and for the 1st time all week my dad's neighbor talked dad into going over to his house for some coffee. My sister and I were about talked out after a week and we were discussing (over the sick bed) how tough it was to talk sex with the children. Then we got into how mom told us. Talked about what mom told my sister. She handed her a book and told her to talk to me if she had any questions. Yea, well, I got the book, but nobody to ask. Chuckle and more along these lines. Well, mom sat up in bed, opened her eyes wide and opened her mouth and fell dead back on the pillow. We got the hysterical giggles. Thank goodness my dad wasn't there. We were laughing. Plum silly. Don't know what she was going to say to us, but.... Then they told us the hearing is the last thing to go.
By the way, my dog's name was Murphy. Both dogs, that is. :)
Dear Asha, Sorry I missed the acting part. Good one. Our old therapist had me "try" and pretend I was Dan. Just couldn't. I'm not Dan. I might not be able to act, but if you throw out the brussel sprouts I guess dinner's at your place. I liked what Dr. Irene said about the sides. Now why couldn't we have thought of that? See Doc, we still need you. And so simple, too.
For all you youngsters, I had the cure for the 50's blues. I was born in 1946, so when I do the math I tend to forget my birthday is at the end of the year. My daughter in law asked how old I was. I said 49. So they threw a 50th Birthday Party for me and it was great. Dan never said a word till we were driving home and then he asked how old I was. 50! Nope, I was only 49. Well, that was easy. So start to lie now and make yourselves a year older and then you can get the trauma behind you and when you really turn 50 it's no big deal. Really isn't anyhow. Age is just a number.
Dear Dr. Irene, Wow, what a bum night. I'm glad I didn't get into it worse as I wanted to scream, "quit messing with me!" I don't want to spend my life watching and being on guard. Does this pass? I see why separation can be therapeutic. I think you're PMSing... :)
Steve, you get to be Tarzan of the Cat Box. You better return and protect us.
Well, that's my book of the day. Trubble, I hear mommy is mad at you and you are only getting tuna.
I think you deserve Caviar and Escargot. Thanks Pal. My
REAL mommy R U!
Theressa, another baby, how many do you have? Do we get to pick names here? I vote for Kit or Kitty. What else?
Love, Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
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Dear Theressa
<<When am I gonna stop getting blame for his moodiness???>>
Probably when you stop blaming yourself. Ah, yesssss.
Of course it's easier for him to blame you than to take responsibility. I would be surprised if he *did* own up to his contribution to the problems. If you wait for him to agree that you were right in kicking him out, I think you'll be waiting an eternity. Just know for yourself what's right, and don't expect him to agree.
Your daughter may be siding with him in front of him, because she knows that that's how she gets his approval. If I was you, I would talk to her about that. Once I overheard Steve's kids saying really negative things about their visit with him in a phone call to their mom - that they were having a rotten time etc. etc. (it was obvious they weren't having a rotten time) Steve later spoke to them about it and I think it relieved a huge pressure from them. Your daughter will learn to say what daddy wants to hear unless you show her that it's not necessary. Also, she's hearing one version from him and another from you so she's probably testing you both to see what is true. But she knows that you will be there regardless of what she says about you, while he won't, necessarily. So she's probably learned to be 'careful' towards him. Yessssss!
Lynn and Jay - please send both husbands here, when they are in 'cleaning mode'. Tell them it would really please you for them to do this for me. B and I could share. thanks.
Hi to all. More later.
Asha
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Asha Dear,
I can't speak for Jay so I am sending Dan to you. I guess B gets Jay's H by default. Dan comes
equipped with 7 cats, 2 dogs, 2 parakeets, 1 cockatiel and 3 aquariums. Turkey
Trout is also his favorite food, so I know you'll give him a good home.
Now that that's settled I think I might dis engage to Hawaii for the winter.
PS. No exchanges or refunds and I'm sorry about Steve, but I could only fit me (plus a cat) on my broomstick.
Thanks Asha, I needed a chuckle. Things always look better when I'm laughing.
My cape is packed and the alimony check is in the mail. Thanks.
And Love,
Lynn
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dr Irene
You have a wonderful ability to bring clarity to what seems so muddled. You are right. I am angry. More angry than I originally was aware of.
Dear all
I debated whether to post this or not, because Steve will find it hurtful. I'm at a point where I feel like being 100% honest about the source of my anger, and I think I need to be up front about it for my own sake, even if it's hurtful to Steve. We may just not be good for each other right now.
I walked down the street yesterday and saw a couple laughing and hanging up 'dead bodies' together on a close line outside their home for Halloween. I thought to myself, that would never happen with Steve and I.
I think about all the birthdays, Halloweens, and Christmases that I have let go by. I thought about how if I wanted to give a gift to the kids I had to run it by Steve first, or I'd be seen as challenging him. And how, even now, he was disinterested in my suggestion of pumpkin carving.
I couldn't invite the kids to carve pumpkins, watch a movie etc. instead of sitting around as you suggested Dr I., because it's Steve's choice whether they come here to visit. In order to do the carving, I have to plan to buy the pumpkins. So what it comes down to is that I can make plans for myself and let them do what they will. If I was to go ahead with an activity with the kids that Steve didn't pre-approve I risk being viewed as overriding his authority. Risk it. Steve also has the authority to end the activity and I don't want to start doing something if there's a chance he will take the kids elsewhere. Don't allow yourself to be manipulated, kids or no kids. We would need to be able to both agree on the activity, for me to feel comfortable with it. The problem is you think you need his approval.
I do write out via email what I think my anger is about. Writing usually helps, except when I don't know what my anger is about. Sometimes I don't know for several days. The more you practice becoming aware, the faster and better you get at it.
I realize there are a myriad of issues. I feel as if Steve did a couple of weeks work on himself and then started acting like he should get his way again. He can act any way he wants. Why does this bother you so? In my head I still hear him saying that I'm seeing this all wrong. I realize it doesn't matter if I'm seeing it wrong. I can't deal with my plans being up in the air so often. Of course. So, if he can't commit to plans, exclude him. In a relationship, I want someone who is genuinely interested in *me*, not how I can serve their needs. I want someone who loves me for *my* highest potential, and I haven't even begun to realize that potential. I want to celebrate life; I want to accept, and say 'yes' to it. I don't want to be with someone who continually blocks my ideas and suggestions. Nobody has the power to block you! (Unless, of course, you let them.)
And sometimes yes, I do want to blather on, and for that to be okay! I don't mind my partner saying that a topic is upsetting him and I can respect those feelings. But I do want a partner who lets me blather on from time to time, just because he knows it makes me feel good! I have felt so controlled, so unable to express myself, that I do need to babble right now. Keep babbling then. Steve: let her babble. It's got nothing to do with you. I don't want to impose feelings, I just want to share my excitement, fears, happiness with someone. If I'm going to have someone in my life, I want someone who can handle that. If not, I'll find others who don't mind my babble. Translation: Steve, she loves you and wishes you could handle her babbling when she needs to.
My anger comes from any indication of 'control'. I know that Steve is doing his best right now. This is why I said that perhaps we're just not good for each other at the moment. And that's okay too. Yes.
Thanks for listening to my blathering babble.
Asha
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
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Lynn back,
In retrospect, Dan was being co dependent plus, not abusive. And then when I wouldn't play the plant game, he tried the put the dinner away game. Still felt yukky. Still hope I didn't engage until he asked what was wrong. I told him and then dropped it. I hope. I'm new to this.
Thanks, Lynn
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
A P.S. from Asha
I was just thinking that when I talk to Steve about other people and other situations, some of the subject matter may push a button in him that I am absolutely unaware of. It would help me if he could tell me that he's uncomfortable with the topic, even if he doesn't know why. If I know he's uncomfortable, and if he explores why and can share this with me, then I can be more sensitive to his feelings. Otherwise I'm left feeling baffled and confused, and I'll likely be babbling about the same subject matter again, not knowing I'm hitting a raw nerve. With some subject matter this obvious to me, other subject matter isn't (especially stuff that has nothing to do with Steve or I). Ideally, he would tell you. But, what if he is uncomfortable, but is not only not aware of the whys of his discomfort, but is unaware of his discomfort period? If you sense discomfort on his part, why do you need him to tell you he is uncomfortable?
Asha
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Lynn
No offense to Dan, but I take back my earlier request. My house is too small. Here's a better idea - we on the cat box can all live communally so Dan and Jay's H can clean to make up for those who don't.
Can you imagine the fixing, controlling, codepending, PMSing, and SBU'ing that would go on if we were all together! (I hope this isn't too rude but SBU is a man's version of PMS - stands for sperm build up. hehe) :) But we'd have great birthday celebrations during October and November. We could throw some killer parties, don't you think?
What would we do about those of us who let our dogs sleep on our beds and others of us who don't want dogs in the house at all? We would have a lot of conflict resolution to deal with. Of course, Dr I. would be there to help us work it all out. And there would never be turkey dinners alone...
Consider it. Just Salmon and Trout, my two favorite mommys.
I can't deal with the tuna anymore.
Asha
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Sorry I thought my posts didn't submit earlier and seem to have put 4 On.
Just need to vent. My husband read this cat box over a week ago. Well sorry folks I didn't know this but I told you a pack of lies. He discussed it with his father...........Well I just hope he continues to read it. Perhaps one day he will get around to looking at what he does that is abusive.
Dear Husband. I won't name you here but you know I post as Jay. If you are reading this, then can I invite you to come on board. No one is out to get at you. All I want is some rational discussion on why our relationship is so destructive to you both. If you met others like Steve and Dan - if he eve can post again you would see that.
This isn't about judging. Though sometimes we vent. It is about finding ways forward. I guess you probably won't take the challenge, but it would be so healing if you did for both of us. love Jay whose real name you know.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Boards,
Lynn here. I Got It! I posted it and it went to limbo, so I'll try again.
The new therapist told us we had to give up the web while she was treating us. Dan said OK. I said I'd like to think on it overnight. Dan said it wasn't necessary, Cat Box fini. We get out to the car and he tells me, " That's OK, honey, if you don't like her, we'll find another one."
I bought into it again. I never said I didn't like her. I feel like Dan in one sentence quit the cat box and went out of town and then he fixed my tub (well, kinda) and started filling me with over helpful around here and now I feel here we are back at square one again. I think my instincts were right on. I had to fine tune my instincts because I am so gullible. (sp, and who cares?) This came from my childhood, too.
I wouldn't have been a bartender for 10 minutes if I didn't acquire good instincts. This whole thing with the therapist has smelled fishy to me since "we" went. Why? Because it was fishy! Dan still wants me to fix it, I think. Now he can't post in the Cat Box and he can't go to therapy because he isn't here and now he doesn't have to do either. Good mommy Lynn will fix it and poor daddy Dan can't right now, but we'll be over fixey in the house so she won't get mad at me.
I feel so stupid and this stuff makes me crazy. Very smart! Just don't fix his.
Asha, loved your post. Can't we just have a communal Cat House and "let" the guys come in and clean? At least we'd all have someone to talk to and babble with. What a Birthday Party, too. We could start with the last one and end with the first one. That would give us 2 weeks rest each year. Pour the wine and light the candles. I'm in.
Nearly Happy Halloween, too. How exciting. What costume/s are we all wearing this year? I think I'll pretend I'm a healthy human. Nobody'd recognize me in that costume. Time to put it on for good me thinks!
Love to All, Thanks to all, Prayers to all and Trick or Treat to all,
Lynn
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Lynn,
Your "cat house" idea: I suppose you know what cat house is slang for? Tee-hee!
"Deeper thoughts" later,
Becky
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Becky,
No, I don't. Explain please ...
Big grins, and yep, I am naive. Had to have SBU spelled out for me. Just not quite that naive.
Mighten't be a bad idea. If they were paying for it, I'll bet they'd take better care of it.
OK Trubble, we know better, it's just been one of those days.
TGTH and bye, gotta fly, Lynn Just watch those steep take
offs...
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Lynn, I think your instincts are dead on re: Dan. Been through that both with family and with my ex. And with myself, to be fair.
[Technical note to the Doc: it might just be me, but Buddha board isn't word-wrapping properly and now neither is this post as I type it. Could this be looked into at some point?]
It's certainly not easy to keep on Dealing With Stuff. There's just so much of it. And as far as parents being healthy goes, in many ways yes, but in many other ways no.
Cleaning is a big one here too -- my dad used to sit in the middle of the room and make me clean, which I hated. My first year out of college, I held Thanksgiving dinner.
It went well, until he had a screaming fit about the grease buildup in the broiler. Must have been my housemate; I don't broil food generally. But Dad had a fit, and insisted on cleaning the oven.
Yuck.
So of late in my house, since it's completely to myself, the cat box is the ONLY thing that gets cleaned regularly, because I won't let others suffer for my messiness. Only me. *giggles*
Laundry has completely eaten my bedroom, my car is (two months later) still not completely unpacked from vacation, cat hair that never seems to completely come out of the living room rug and furniture, etc.
I'd love to have it cleaned, and I'd love to be motivated to clean it, but cleaning is so linked to getting yelled at for not doing it right (or not doing it at all). I guess I'm rebelling.
OTOH, Dad's been amazingly supportive lately. E-mail and snail mail clippings related to my various pet projects find their way to me with amazing regularity.
I'm one of the world's biggest suckers for little things. The new guy is still in the picture (though since we know we're BOTH not in the healthiest of states right now, things will go very slowly).
We went to dinner at our usual Applebee's Friday night, and he ordered mozzarella sticks. You know how they come in a basket with that paper liner that's a bit stronger than a napkin?
As we waited for the check, before the dishes were taken away, he used that to make me an origami flower, which now rests on my nightstand. :)
Every time I see that ridiculous flower, I just break out in this massive grin. I'm thinking of taking it to work to cheer me up.
I so completely love that kind of thing. Not money, but thought. Dad was always good at that, too. The best Christmas present of my life was one of his.
You know those shirts that say "Celebrate Freedom, Read a Banned Book"? I got the shirt -- and EVERY SINGLE BOOK on the shirt the Christmas I was ... *thinks*... 15.
Many of the books were from his old collection, and some were from used bookstores. But talk about thought counting! I'm a lifelong bookworm, and I HATE censorship with an intense passion.
It was the ultimate "I know my daughter!" gift.
Now if I could safely visit him without him insisting on vacuuming out my car before I leave, thereby delaying my departure for an extra hour or two..... :P
Astrid
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Date: Monday, October 30, 2000
S1
Dear Astrid,
I hear you about parents cleaning "our" houses. About 3 months ago (in old car) a girl friend bought 2 large boxes of stuff at a garage sale that she couldn't fit in her car. I still have her stuff in my new car. I tell people that that is why I had to buy a station wagon. Tooooo funny the people who tell her to get to out and the one's who ask me why I don't make her get it out. It's my car and I can carry her stuff around for the next 20 years if I so choose.
She and I have turned this into an art form. If she sees me at the grocery store she comes and says hello to her stuff. :)
My favorite T-shirt of the year.
"I'm on a 30 day diet, and so far I've lost 15 days."
I'm a reader, too. I don't believe in banning either. About 10 years ago I found an old "Little Black Sambo" I gave it to my 1st grand son. We have the choice to read or not to read. I went to a used book store near Chicago and bought a bundle of used books and carried them home. That's why I don't need fancy luggage.
I posted a brief one to David at Buddha, too, and it didn't go through. I don't know what all that wrap stuff means. Don't need to.
Neat about the new friend. Just enjoy. You deserve it. Does this mean you aren't moving to Asha's with us? Lovely about the flower. I'm happy for you.
Take care and have a Happy Halloween. Love, Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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PS Astrid, I know about origami. I just got a book at the library book sale. :) Only books I got rid of were a box of witchcraft ones I got at a garage sale. They were too weird for me. Got a bundle, too, at a used Book Store. I have books that I buy just because I like the title. My favorite in that category is "The Neighbor's Are Scaring My Wolf."
Where would the cats sleep if we didn't keep laundry piles around the house? Think of it at cat care.
Say Goodnight Mooses, Goodnight Mooses,
Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Hi all. AK is posting lots of negative stuff about me lately - this for example:
"In a relationship, I want someone who is genuinely interested in *me*, not how I can serve their needs. I want someone who loves me for *my* highest potential, and I haven't even begun to realize that potential. I want to celebrate life; I want to accept, and say 'yes' to it. I don't want to be with someone who continually blocks my ideas and suggestions."
I'm sorry, but these kinds of posts are a pretty good indicator for me that there's nothing left.
Look carefully at what she is saying... Ooops! Steve, stop reacting. Just listen to what she is saying. Ignore her anger and just hear it. This is a good stretch for you...
Gee girl, get the hell out if that's how little you think of me.
Thanks for all your kind words AK/Asha or whatever your name is.
How encouraging...
Steve
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Steve,
"How encouraging?" How? What are you saying here? Why does AK/Asha or whatever she calls herself have to make a decision. Don't you get to make one? What's going on here? I don't understand. I know I don't need to, but I'd like to understand if you feel like explaining it.
Something's wrong, isn't it? Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Hi Cat Box, B. here!
Again a quick note, since I'm stressed in time right now and I've only read up to the middle of posts No. 8...
Yes I saw there were many Scorpions here, as well as many Octobers (My H was born Oct. 18! And today his father has his birthday, and his brother's birthday is one day before mine - really, we were born day after day, same year too). Great! October is the best! No offense, others...
I'll write in detail soon about the problem I raised, but a housekeeper can't solve it. Besides, I can't stand strangers in my things, know what I mean?
Love you all, and talk to you later. Oh, and I find the discussion sooooo pertinent to me too. I really identify with you all. Plus I also have an H that says it's no use to feel so-and-so because you can't change whatever...
Can't have feelings because they mean only pain for him, but he denies that too... That's his choice. Let him...
Bye! Later! B.
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Yes Lynn, there are many things wrong. I was being ironically sarcastic by saying "thanks for the kind words." and "how encouraging".
I felt her words here lately to be extremely HURTFUL Steve: Let her have her feelings; you don't have to have her support and approval all the time! and very DISCOURAGING Please don't go here. She is just setting her boundaries.. I don't have time to go into it all...but...
AK is angry most of the time. There's no way to work on things when she is so angry. Right. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of her always telling me I have to work on me when I know that it takes two to make a relationship. She refuses to get help for her anger. Of course she doesn't see it as a problem. (Remember? Only Steve has problems). No, both of you have problems. Steve has to get a handle on his problems first. Then it becomes her turn. Why? That's a whole article I should write.
All the anger...it's very unhealthy to be around. I cannot expose myself nor my kids to it anymore. Too much walking on eggshells waiting for the next bomb to go off. Especially if you give too much power to the bomber. Otherwise, you'd realize she is just human. Like you. Like Trubble.
When I say she is angry, I don't think I'm conveying the complete picture. She is "deaf/blind angry". To the point where she can't see anything but her own narrow viewpoint. She can't hear a word I say. I cannot reason with her. I cannot "be very gentle" because she'll just bite my head off even harder. Right.
I'm just throwing in the towel on this one. Stop reacting to her! Just let her vent without getting all tied up emotionally in her venting, which has nothing to do with you.
I used to thing my X had big problems with anger. Now her problems seem very small compared to what I see in AK/asha.
Oh how I wish I could tell you the whole story. I feel like the people here see AK as this innocent angel and me as the demon. No me.
Maybe someday, I'll fill you in better Lynn. Right now, just let me say, that what you hear from AK, isn't always the real story, is never the full story. Anyways, I'm tired of living next to one big long temper tantrum. You can't fix her. You can fix you. My suggestion: Let her be angry, let her vent. Why do you let her feelings get to you so much? Detach. Which is NOT throwing in the towel - which is no more than your own frustrated reaction to her reaction. Like dominos. Stop reacting to her reaction!
Steve
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
S1
Hi All,
Hi Lynn, I have only one baby. She is 6 years old and called Missy. My two sister's have children, the one I said is a manipulator is one year younger than me Mags, she has two kids. My youngest sister is Cat she has one baby I looked after him this weekend.
I'd never have had any more children to my ex after Missy, cos he made my life miserable, I was so wrong as a mom in his opinion, still am LOL.
Lynn I also know what you mean about passing back the responsibility to my ex. NEXT STEP RIGHT!!!!
Asha, Missy does feel it is okay to be herself with me. She pushes the limits with me, she seems to feel safe doing so. She'll say to me I know dad moan and is moody, though when she is in his presence she'll side with her daddy. FEAR in my opinion, she is affraid of not getting his approval. WIth me she knows I still love her whatever. I tell her this. I told her love is like glue it sticks no matter what we do. If your naughty your love in my heart stays all the time and the same happens for you, my love stays in your heart no matter what you do. She even feels safe saying mommy its not my fault you did xxxx, we are each responsible for our own actions. I taught her this, and she calls me on it, which is good. Though with her daddy she can't do this, she must just do as he says. So its like she can be healthy with me but not with her dad, with him she must be compliant no matter what, unless she wants to lose his approval.
I am not perfect and sometimes I feel awful cos when everything is running around in my head I just want to be alone, I end up feeling guilty cos I should be spending this time with Missy but I need to relax so I can think straight.
If only life was simple. If Missy would get dressed in the morning without tantrums, if I'd not end up yelling your going to bed early, we're late again. You see Missy is rebelling big time, she doesn't want to do anything that doesn't suit her. If I didn't feel so Yukkyy!!! I feel so sad sometimes and starting thinking what on earth am I doing. I left the chaos or so I thought, or did I?
Thanks all of you Theressa
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Theressa, just a thought about the tantrums. Have you tried a reward chart for getting dressed without the tantrum? Missy might not be able to connect early bed times with what happens in the morning. I remember the tantrums bit well. We were always the family late for school. Also I think it is good if you do relax and take time out for yourself. No need to feel guilty.
Dear all, let's have the catbox, the mess and no husbands! Ohhh, somebody's mad...
Weird kind of day today. Sort of decided it is the rest of my life and ended up in a major tension situation with my H. Then just thought what on earth am I even wanting this to continue for.
Went to the doctors and got the female one I dislike. I thought 'you look stressed as hell and you want to look at my health. Then I thought I have had enough and went out straight from the doctor's surgery and registered with a new one. Can't decide if I was right or impulsive!
Mainly, I just want to change everything and discover who I really am and what I am capable of. So then I went to a careers office and booked an appointment.
Then I decided I feel strong enough to insist on a separation from my husband and what was I doing in a relationship where I have basically felt unhappy for 20 years. Madness.
Then I asked my friend if she thought I had become a manic depressive but she said No you are doing fine. Experience your power. Feel it. Just go slowly so you are not impulsive.
I halved my medication this morning so I really hope it is not a reaction to that.
And then I came back and couldn't resist the catbox.
Bears and raccoons and mooses. I think I want to come to the U.S! Here we have swans in the river and ducks and some horses nearby. Sometimes a hedgehog in the garden nut no bears at all. Or crocodiles , or raccoons. Except in the zoo.
Some how, Lynn your sharing has inspired me to a great sort out. I also have bags and bags of clothing that travels round with me for no better reason than someone threw it out for me to take to the Oxfam store. In fact it has even come out of the car and back into the house several times!
Really, Really missing my daughter now. Still no call. I tried talking to the doctor about her today and that is why I got so mad as she was dismissive. Actually I told her I felt she needed to take some responsibility for not listening to me in the first place. Glad I did. I wasn't rude, I just felt it needed saying.
Lynn, I think you are right. The whole housecleaning thing to me is a way of avoiding the real issues. I am just not fooled any more.
Realised that all I can see left between me and my husband is the housecleaning. So metaphorically, I have found that all my husband ever does for me is clean the catbox. I can clean my own house
(catbox). And mine too!
Steve, I wish you would look again at what Asha says. Like Dr. Irene, says, forget the anger.
lynn. You sound pretty down. I just want to send you lots of love and hugs and if there was one a cat proof candle.
trubble, if you can stow away, then I could do with borrowing a cat to cuddle right now. Only wait until the storms are passed.
More terrible storms forecast for tonight, I watched a little of what was going on elsewhere in the country on TV. Like England is turning into one vast ocean. It put things into perspective seeing how many people have lost everything. I am afout now to see what the river is doing and find my son who appears permanently attached to the basketball courts. (He's good! in the county team a year young.)
Love to you all. Keep smiling. While I was depressed I discovered it really is true: if you smile it does release a chemical. So now if I am really down, I make myself smile. Seems to work even if it is not really a smile at all. :)
Love and lots of hugs. Jay
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Jay said: "Dear all, let's have the catbox, the mess and no husbands!"
Jay, you seem to forget, there are husbands here. That comment is a little bit angry sounding.
Do you believe only men are abusers?
Steve Steve: She's just angry and venting. No harm. Let her. Don't personalize it. Human beings and cats do this.
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Steve,
Hi the rest, I'll post later. Lynn here. In the first place, is there going to be a relationship to work on between you and AK/Asha? If not/never or a BIG NO are you ready to throw in the towel? If so, do and let both of you get on with your lives. (I thought you passed this to AK and was going to let her make the final decision).
If there is even the tiniest ray of hope I think you two need to back off from each other for a few minutes and reconoiter. Fall back and regroup. I'd even suggest no talking and no emails for a couple of days until both of you can sort out your thoughts. Toughie working together. White flag and truce and nothing but what definitely pertains to the business.
Think of it as a retreat. Then and only then do I think each of you can quit shouting long enough to hear each other. Yes.
I can't speak for all here, but I certainly never thought of AK/Asha as an Angel. Nor you as Lucifer. I hear two people who genuinely (I think) care for each other and have let so many issues from the past cloud their thinking that they are stuck there. I know these past issues have to be worked on, but I don't think either of you are in a position to stop, make goals, think rationally about the future and then organize a game plan for healing, nurturing or kissing any of the boo boo's and making them all better, yet.
Yet! I haven't given up on the two of you yet. I don't think either of you have yet either, because if it were over with no looking back one of you would have said an emphatic NO by now.
Ok. If we've both backed off ..... Your needs are just as important as AK/Asha's. What are they? I thought she stated hers loud and clear. (I also think she's like me and wants them yesterday). Rationally, though this isn't going to be better next week or next month and never if the two of you don't quit shouting.
1. Define a game plan for "Steve and AK/Asha. 2. What are Steve's wants and needs from the relationship? 3. What are AK/Asha's want and needs from the relationship? 4. Now take a breather. 3 days off from each other I'd say. Then see if you both feel a genuine commitment to each other and want to make an effort towards a future with each other.
Maybe write these down separately.
That's the easy part! If the answer is yes then the road ahead is full of traps, pitfalls, slips and just a bunch of other yukky stuff waiting to catch you and destroy you. I think you'd both have to make a genuine promise to each other that if the time isn't right to talk something over, then there HAS to be a "time out" respected by both sides to go back in your corners and develop another plan for the next round.
Is therapy out of the Q? I don't remember if you are in or not. Sorry.
Next, and the toughest for me is the past hurts. There will have to be times set aside to deal and heal with these. This is so hard because they keep cropping their ugly head in the middle to sabotage you. Yes. And the bad habits both of these two have where they bounce off each other. So reactive!
Then both of you have childhood issues that need to be faced and dealt with and worked on and resolved. I don't think either of you can do this for each other either. Look at the mess Dan and I keep getting into with this one.
Lots and lots more, but that's a start. Gee, you guys. Can't you see what you are doing to each other? I found my term for it. Pushing my buttons and engage and disengage wasn't making sense to me. I knew what to do when I felt Dan was "Just messin' with me." Put the feelings in your own words.
Ok, lecture over. Just my thoughts anyhow and if I knew so much I wouldn't be in the Cat Box either. I do know, and this I do know that if you both work on this relationship and make it work, 25 years down the road you will look back and not be able to imagine what the fuss was about. True intimacy is the heart to heart of two people who can be in a crowded room and get eye contact with each other and feel more in that look than most of the rest in the room feel in all their sexual embraces put together. You'll know it when you get it, but it takes hard work to get it. That I think is something a couple earns.
If I was too heavy on you, tough. I thought I was just as heavy on AK/Asha. I don't feel I have to tippie toe with you. I'm not trying to hurt either of you. I'd like to see you both stop hurting each other. Then decide if you each want to make the effort to commit to the rest of your lives.
I do love you both. Lynn ToughMommyDoc2! Good advice!
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Steve again, Lynn here. Posting together. No, men aren't only the abusers. We all had a rough day yesterday and got a little silly. In fact I was afraid you'd be angry because I wanted to send Dan to AK.
We're talking a communal home where AK cooks turkey dinners Dan and Jay's H clean and it's full of all of our cats and dogs and birds.
You are welcome to move into the Cat Box commune. You do have to contribute something of yourself though. Any suggestions? Grin.
Steve, truthfully, I can get VERY abusive. I say I'm just trying to get Dan to hear me, but I've said some truly unforgivable things to him. In fact when our ball started rolling I think we reversed roles completely. I didn't even like me like that.
Lynn with (((HUGS))
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Oh Boy, Lynn back,
I just reread my posts to Steve and I'm thinking. I'm talking about the "great" relationship my late husband and I had and I'm also talking earlier about the "great" love I had for my previous boyfriend. Dan will never be either of these men. Dan and I have our own relationship that is totally different, yet I'll bet I'm dragging some of these issues into this relationship, too.
Food for thought here, Always...
Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Steve, I am so sorry. That was a thoughtless remark based on my own anger with my own husband at that time. If you look in 'Confessions" you will see that I came in thinking I was the abuser in the relationship I had with my husband. I don't think only men can be abusers at all. But you also sound angry? I think with Asha and not me?
Yeah Dr. Irene, I messed up. No guilt. Good! ( dr irene has been on at me about this!) Yes.
Lynn, I just wondered if we ever get free of all the junky stuff. Maybe we just have to learn to live with the bits of ourselves that won't change. I don't really know quite what I am trying to say here. actually no, that doesn't work. Maybe it is that once you se it you change, but only if you want to and there is a right time to see everything. Kind of like we don't see it until we are ready. If this makes no sense at all, put it down to the drug thing, Halloween and the impending storms!
love, jay
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
S1
Dear Cat Box and Trubble,
Lynn here. I had to go to the store with my neighbor who is also a Scorpio! I never new very many till here. What a treat.
Thanks Trubble darlin" glad you are working. MommyDoc1 will give you a treat. If she has a problem with this, say, "Lynn said I could!" That outta work. ^-^
I'll try it. Otherwise, can you come get me out of here?
Dear Dr. Irene, I think I will call the "shrink." It's just a 130 mile drive WOW! on the round trip to hell road and I don't like to drive. Ah, there's the job for Steve. I could use a chauffer and I can sit in the back of my station wagon with my dogs and my friends "stuff" and go anywhere I wanted to.
A pat on the back for me, too. Dan's out of town and I didn't go shopping, gamboling or any of the destructive things I can tell myself I'm justified in doing. I have a quirk, too. I love Honkey Tonks and Country Music and Karaoke (sp) and just people in general. Don't need to drink. Dan says I just wake up when the Neon Lights come on. I do like Night Life and Night People. Cats & bats & vampires.
The critters behave for me. They are horrible when I'm gone. Giggle!
Steve, a brief comment. You said X was angry, too. Could this be a pattern of yours that makes all these other women angry? Wouldn't you be mad at Steve if he didn't let you be mad at him?
Jay, about the laughter. My step daughter sent me a phone number of a business and I called and Of course got the "menu." Press one for this, press two for that, etc. Press #7 if you want to hear a duck quack. I pressed #7 and heard, "Quack, quack, quack." Well, my silly train of thought and my apologies Dr. I, but Shrinks used to be called quacks and one silly thought led to another and I can hehe over this hours after I call. Toll free, and yes I call every couple of days. One never knows when one may need to hear a duck quack, does one?
Jay, I love the bags of clothes. I'm glad I do this at the thrift store. I go bags of clothes on dollar day, brig them home and wash and iron them and never wear them. I've got clothes from size 8 to size 14 and I am somewhere right now, but that is subject to change at any moment and so I go out and buy more bags. Goofy or therapeutic? I guess you and I get to be the Cat Box bag ladies.
Congrats to your son. ((HUGS)) to your daughter and it sounds like you know the direction you are heading with H. As for our Dr. I think you did the right thing. They work for us, remember. She may not be bad for everyone, but if she's not for you, that's OK. As for the manic depression, I think we all have a bit of that inside of us. I sure felt like it yesterday. Just tying to organize my thoughts.
Dear Theressa, I think I confused you with B on wanting another baby. Aren't you all glad that I'm not the stork? I think you are right. One by this guy is enough. You'll have to get your child rearing help from others. I used to tell my kids (I worked nights) that school was their responsibility and they had to set the alarm and get themselves up. Come wake me and kiss me good bye, but that was the best I could do. Your daughter may be a bit young for this, tho...
As for you, of course you're crabby. Who wouldn't be! Just reassure her that mums cranky, but not at her (unless you are).
Hi Astrid. Hi Becky and Hi AJ.
Dear B, Hi there. We're waiting. No rush. You haven't even conceived yet and I just gave the baby to Theressa. Sorry. How many others do you have?
Isn't it funny with our relationships? I can't see the nose in front of me when it comes to Dan. Good luck and I'd opt for the house keeper. A teenager who needs a couple of bucks, with room limits?
Dear Asha, I don't know what to say. Yes I do. I still think you two sound like Dan and I in reverse. That makes it funny to me, because I can hear what you are saying, I can hear what Steve is saying, but I can't hear Dan. I think that's why I love Steve's posts. He says exactly what I want to say to Dan. Even the words come out the same. This dynamic is sooooo interesting. Maybe it's the Cat Box way of telling me that no matter what sex we are, we all have the same problems. Not that I don't understand and hear the rest of you. It's just that I think like Steve and so this can't be gender related.
Steve, I was adopted. Do you suppose your folks gave me up? I was so glad to hear from you. How was the trip? PS. Someday I'd love to hear all of your story. Someday do you want to hear all of mine? After we all get a bit healthier maybe we can X change emails. I don't know why, but I don't think Dan is jealous. I think Dan would be of you. Just me thinks. This is silly because I think I'm old enough to be your mother, but (I used to say who knows what men think, but that doesn't work with you) ??? Are you up for adoption?
I love you all, Hope the weather clears in England. I'd love to share the bears and deer and moose with everyone. Just watching them is so peaceful.
Happy Birthday and Happy Halloween
Loves, hugs, peace, purrrs, tears, thanks,
Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Jay,
I don't think one only can change in a relationship. If one does the other is forced to, just by the actions. But then there is no guarantee that the others change will be to our liking or come with us on the road we choose to travel.
Doesn't sound like this makes any more better sense either.
Love you, too,
Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Jay, yea, and quit picking on Steve! :) Love and laughter on this one, Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Yeah Jay, quit picking on me. I'm very sensitive. Grin. Yeah!
Lynn, you said "Steve, a brief comment. You said X was angry, too. Could this be a pattern of yours that makes all these other women angry? "
I knew this would get a bite. I think anger is something we do, not something someone does to us. When I am angry, I have no-one to blame but myself. My X has many "reasons" to CHOOSE to be angry. It's a VERY long story about her childhood. And...Lynn, "my X" does not easily equate with "ALL THESE OTHER WOMEN". Who are you talking about? Grin.
It would be easy to say I'm responsible for my X's and AK's anger. But I don't think so, because then everyone in AK's past would be responsible for her anger, and she would be responsible for their anger at her, etc and on it goes - same for everyone in the world I guess. No, I think we are responsible for our own anger. Yes. And we are also responsible for our behavior when we are angry. Let's make a distinction between the feeling of anger and behaving angrily.
I can't make anyone angry. And no one can make me angry. Right.
By the way Lynn, your last few posts were pretty good. I don't think you have a problem with objectivity as far as AK and I go.
You are pretty fair. Although sometimes I think you miss the mark (usually because of lack of more information), you are very sincere in your attempt to see things clearly. It's hard to see a situation clearly though, if you only get one side. I don't seem to have as much time as AK to give my feelings around here. I would like to point out where AK has made mistakes in her posts regarding me, but I just don't have the time right now. Maybe soon.
Thanks for your input Lynn.
And Jay, apology accepted.
Steve
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Dear Steve,
The biggest problem I have with objectivity is when it relates to Dan and me. I want to shout I'm right and your are wrong and ... well! And quit or I'll work myself into another snit.
I have to run, too. I just have to add about the all the other women remark (Grins back at ya') that I have things that trigger the same responses from all my other men (Grin again).
I agree with you about the 2 sides to every story. I don't think any of us would be comfortable with it ALL here on the web for EVERYBODY to see. So it's hard to understand unless we get some input from each. That's why I'm especially glad you are here.
Take Care.
Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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Steve, giving you a bit of a break here, I'm not sure men are really comfortable sharing their feelings in the first place. I don't think boys are taught they can do this. You can, of course, but I think it's tougher for men. Stero ... Sign of weakness. Not so, but ... Just thinking aloud. Lynn
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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000
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I'm back!
Lynn, "cat house" is slang for brothel, house of ill-repute, etc. Don't ask me how a sheltered Baptist girl knows this!
Astrid, Your dad sounds like a sweetie! I've been told that I was the apple of my dad's eye when i was a baby. I guess when I started growing up I lost my appeal! As I've mentioned in earlier posts, he was pretty hard on me, but I'm no longer angry about it, just sad. He does from time to time soften up; for example, when I graduated with my associates degree, I was one of a few who had a perfect 4.0 GPA. This seemed to impress him. he semi-hugged me and said "Good job." I was very touched by that.
Lynn again, i hope you are feeling less depressed. I understand, believe me!
Could you all give me some input? A page back, I talked about the pain of being called a leech, a mistake, being told I have a pea brain, etc., and asked how one could NOT feel upset about that. dr. Irene commented that maybe there were some things that he was saying that i should think about, but that I should focus on disengaging for now. (Not a direct quote, but I believe this is what she meant).
I don't think she means that I AM a leech, or a mistake, or have a pea brain, but she seems to be suggesting that there may be some truth to his comments. Or am i reading this wrong? Maybe it's the mood I'm in, but I kinda deflated when I read that.
I realize that there can be a kernel of truth in an abuser's remarks, but it's not acceptable to express that truth in an abusive way. I can tell my husband that I'm concerned about his health if he keeps putting on weight; if I say "You're getting so fat you're going to keel over!" that's abusive. He seems to choose the hurtful words more often than not.
I've also learned that it was a mistake to confide in him about certain things such as my past history of panic attacks (MUCH less frequent in recent years) and my unsettling childhood. He throws those things at me as in "Look how weak you are!" or "Well, I guess you ARE getting better--at least you aren't afraid to drive anymore!" This said in a disrespectful and derisive tone. The other night he latched on to a radio host's talking about "perpetual victims," telling me that I'm one of those; I have to have something to feel like I'm a victim of. He then brought up my childhood and belittled my feelings that I was abused in some ways. Told me to "get over it."
I am not a perpetual victim! And I've dealt with the childhood stuff in as much as I'm over the anger. I'm at the stage where I'm working to understand how my childhood has influenced me.
I've noticed that when he gets really nasty, he closes his eyes while he "spews." Anyone else notice this?
Gotta go. Losing my privacy.
Becky
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Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000
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Hi, Jay here,
Dear Becky, I can't see it is right for your husband to call you names. Or to treat you like he does. I've noticed that as I try to disengage with my husband, then he tries harder to wind me up. Or maybe it is harder, in my case, not to think I am being wound up. When I get really wound up I end up calling my husband names out of sheer frustration at what he has said and done and believe me I think at times anyone would. But I can't see it was right for me to do so and I think the things your husband says about you are awful and I would be upset too. I do think though that maybe your husband acts like he does as he knows he can get a reaction from you. You bet!
Maybe worth looking again at Dr I's advice or asking for clarification?
I have had the bit about the childhood too thrown at me. And my husband refuses to come in the car unless it suits him although I am a really safe driver. Admittedly, I am not sure that while I was stressed this is true. I have learnt that the last person I talk about my childhood to or anything that I find upsetting is my husband and make sure I talk to a friend instead. It hurts it is like this as I wanted a caring life partner. But I find at least this way I offset things. I didn't know the meaning of cat house. I don't think we have that term in the u.k so I am glad I know now. Hugs and prayers and lots of thoughts. jay.
Lynn - glad you sound more upbeat. Guess what time it is. My fault for going to bed so early. (It is about 4pm). I think that the hardest thing in the world is to see your own situation. I know what you mean about as you change the other person does too. I changed and my husband certainly doesn't like it. I swear he wants me home in the kitchen whatever he says to the contrary. years ago he had a fellow PhD women's libber in an almost all male college. She was a good friend to both of us and into women's rights. He would agree with her while refusing to let me buy the washing machine. It used to make me so mad as I felt I was treated like that while we had these women's rights type conversations with her. What I can't believe about myself now is I just didn't do the sensible thing and got into argument after argument as I was too afraid to buy one. It was perfectly o.k when I finally did. But the change that wasn't liked was that I stopped being so stupid!
Cat box bag ladies? I love it. I don't gamble but I realised yesterday I buy things as a sort of retaliation if I get mad. I am hooked on buying perfume and make up. This is crazy as I hardly ever wear the stuff. I think it is something about getting attention and for years I was really finding it hard to spend money on myself. Last time I did this being yesterday. It is a long story as to why. It included thinking I had no money and then discovering I had and having an argument about money and then getting so mad I thought right, bother you. Which my whole make up bag is a tribute to the times I got mad at my husband. Which, writing it down like this is totally daft as he wouldn't even notice if I was wearing the stuff. And he wouldn't know it is bought when I feel angry at him. How stupid can I get!
Lynn I also have clothes in 3 different sizes. I have never ever seen the bright lights. I was on a fery a while back with my son and we watched the roulette table. I longed to have a go. Just once. but I don't think I had better. It probably wouldn't have been just once.......
Steve, It would be lovely to get where you are at with the anger. Only I am unsure whether this could happen to me on earth. People do things that make me feel angry and i can choose whether to act the anger out, but I can't choose the angry feelings. How do you get to that point?
Asha, I really hope things work out whatever way you decide to go. I can identify with the need to babble. Hugs.
Asha and Steve, I think Lynn's earlier post for both of you makes loads of sense.
Astrid, I think apart from the housecleaning your dad sounds cool. You are lucky having had such good parents and maybe that is why you seem so clear headed in your posts.
Everyone else. Hugs. Love and happy Wednesday.
Love, Jay
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Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000