Comments for Catbox 44

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Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

44 Edited and 43 FINALLY edited, including a message for Jeannie

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

HI all,

I am a bit confused as yesterday there was a catbox 44 with nothing into it and now there is no way in-not on page 43 anyway!

Mousie, If you do have epilepsy you may be able to learn to control it to some extent - It depends on if you actually just have fits. Some people have "auras" a feeling or warning that they get before they fit. Also I think that you can do a lot by starting to notice when you get worked up.....it could be a part of the epilepsy but when I worked in a children's hospital it was sometimes the ignoring of bad behaviour that caused the child more problems than anything else - the sick child was never corrected as mum and dad felt so sorry ...It led to a lot of suffering for the child ...so you might need to check out where your behaviour comes from and whether you can be taught to get a handle on it.

I sympathize with the medicines but we can also continue habits that started with medical side effects - yes I know about a drug making you suicidal as it happened to me, but the behaviour can continue long beyond the drug. I think because of the way we form habits and pattern match our previous experience - it took me ages to figure that suicidal thoughts happened when I got no attention. And I am not over that yet... but the pattern of returns does diminish... I seek help faster now and so it gets sorted quicker. But the drug can't still be to blame for everything - even if I continue to get the 'electric shocks' that come with some peoples withdrawal from seroxat.

Feeling you are in charge of you is a better feeling I think than feeling out of control (I really did feel out of control).

I am not a Dr however and so I don't know what a doctor would think.

OH well. I got through yesterday and although the day was awful Jake was better in the evening and he did eat the pizza and like it. I presume so as he had a second helping...

I am a little confused though....not big time. Yesterday I thought "I was happier being codependent." "I want this to continue and I do love him ": He was making it clear it was over.....but we are not apparently parting, still....

I guess the best thing is to put all my energy into where I can and just hope we get back into working it out...make my own changes.....make my own life. I think the longer I let myself be down and ill the worse it will be. Yes! I am not sure if you can 'choose to be well' - not if it is physical or even if it is psychological, but I think you can make the choices to get the best out of whatever........ Yes.

So I am still taking down time to look after me. .I have noticed that actually now I'm more selective.  I have had the energy to give more to certain people........and I have felt ok about backing off and taking time for me if I can't do or handle it. I am also asking others properly for help now - yesterday I leaned hard on whatever I could and I did survive.... 

Someone pointed out to me yet again I have suffered the most awful stuff and I am still standing.....some of my friends are also realising I need them to be 'there' for me when I am not saying it all, which helps...hard to be on the receiving end; but it feels good to let myself be cared for without the guilt...... 

Love, Jay

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

I can see how Steve felt about his dog. Who's to say whether it was better to call the vet or not? I mean, MAYBE the vet could have done something... IF he got to it before it was all over... one way or the other. Or MAYBE his dog would have died without the vet's help. Steve would have been with him all the same. Anyway his dog didn't die. What about the down side?... If Steve was sure the vet couldn't do much, what's to gain from calling him? What's to LOSE from calling him? Maybe his dog gets taken away for treatment in that sterile clinic, and dies without Steve there... Or maybe there's someone in that clinic who can't stand to see the poor dog suffer, their problem not Steve's. Maybe they put his dog to sleep without permission, then tell Steve "sorry, your dog died." You can't always trust people not to do that with animals. Now and then you can't trust them not to do it with PEOPLE either... Or maybe they start pushing on Steve and guilting him to have his dog put to sleep, and in a moment of weakness he gives in. All that is stuff Steve would kick himself for afterwards, so why risk it? What if he didn't give in? It's still a big hassle arguing with people about it, wasting energy trying to put all his feelings and wants into words and doing battle with all THEIR emotional stuff, while he's under stress and having enough trouble dealing with his own emotional stuff about his dog and all. So why bring outsiders in at all and make things more complicated? Leave 'em out, that's the best way.

Lots of creatures have that instinct. When I'm hurt, leave me ALONE to heal. Don't bother me. That's all Steve was doing, taking care of himself, by himself, and taking care of his own dog the best way he knew how. He wasn't trying to make anyone else take care of his stuff. I don't see anything wrong with that. It was awkward for Asha to be around the dog when it was in pain, but didn't Steve take care of that in the end by taking his dog away? Asha still has a problem if she's still taking care of the dog. So why not get creative? Swap apartments, you guys! Then you can both keep your own space while Steve takes care of his own dog in Asha's old apartment, and Asha's free. All it takes is a Uhaul truck...

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

IN CASE I CAN'T GET DR IRENE TODAY- I just looked at Jeannie's board -  you have to be over 18 to get into it and I have just read an abusive and hostile post there from Mousie- it is offensive in the extreme towards the catbox and I strongly suggest that we ignore any further posts from Jeannie/Stormy or Mousie (more fool me earlier). Dr Irene I hope that this is the right think to do-Jeannie's site contains a link to this one. I do not wish personally to engage with either of these people any more. (Dr Irene can delete this if she thinks I got it wrong - I don't advise looking for Mousie's post why spend the day on that when you can have a rather better one without.) Jay

Is this the post you meant Jay:

I guess this whole crew is going to be blipped Jay. I don't have the time, energy or inclination to deal with this stuff. Bottom line: this is not the place, though I sincerely hope Mousie et all find a place to help them, if that's what they want. BTW, why would I delete your post? There is no problem with expressing your opinion; no problem if we don't agree. My peeve is with attacking others, which has nothing to do with disagreeing with them.

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Dear Anonymous Poster

I think what you mentioned above probably was very likely what Steve was thinking (only he can say for sure tho). Something I just noted was that a phone call to the vet means something very different to him than to me. #1 I feel I can *trust* the vet and that the experience would be positive and would give me information. #2 I know I can go to the vet, get information, and still refuse “treatment in the sterile clinic” if I so choose.

I think you could be right about Steve needing to deal with his emotional stuff alone.

<<It was awkward for Asha to be around the dog when it was in pain, but didn't Steve take care of that in the end by taking his dog away? >>

It was the way it was done that I found hurtful. When he drove off, he didn’t allow me the opportunity to say goodbye to the dog. When I went to talk to Steve through the window (to tell him I wanted to give the dog a hug goodbye), he wouldn’t look at me or acknowledge me. Finally, I walked away. I felt very hurt. He was angry Asha. Why are you taking Steve's anger personally? When they came back, and were about to drive off again, I opened the hatchback and gave the dog a hug without asking.

Finally, apartment swapping won’t work for me. I live in a house and have my own dog. I don’t know whether Steve will bring the dog back here or not (his ex lives in another city and that's where he is now). If he does, it puts me in a difficult position because I don’t think I can deal emotionally with much more of this. So don't I could easily say no, but it's the dog's well being that concerns me. Your own well-being must concern you more.

I am also feeling uneasy because of a brief conversation I had with Steve the other night about something unrelated. A comment I made (which was meant to be supportive) was apparently taken as an attack, since he walked out again without saying goodbye.

I’ve pretty much had all I can take of these walk outs. I agree that Steve needs to look after his emotional well being, and maybe that’s all he can do to cope. I also need to look after my emotional well being, and that means I don’t want to subject myself to this, if I there are ways I can avoid it. I have feelings too, and I feel hurt and frustrated when he misinterprets me, accuses me, ignores me etc. My support and compassion for his feelings have a limit. If being supportive to him comes at my own expense, then I too have to withdraw. 

thanks

Asha 

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Dear Dr Irene. It may have been - once I realised what was happening I just skimmed and came out of the site to write to you.

I really don't have time to waste reading stuff that offends me or my friends.

Or that offends me written about me or anyone I know...

For those who still entertain a particle of sympathy - I guess the people Dr Irene is talking about will one day be ready to learn, but today is not the day.

Jay   I think they're a bunch of young kids who are very angry... So be it.

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Amy,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. Tried to post this under the "Death of a Dream" posts, but it keep hanging every time.  I copied it there for you.

I have my good days, and bad days. Right now I am in the grieving process. I've tried to be kind and empathetic to my STBX, but anytime he calls, all he is does is throw out blame towards me and our son. When he starts swearing at me on the phone, that's when I say, "I'm not going to listen to you talk to me like that, and then I say 'goodbye'", and hang up. OK.

Friday was tough, as he was served with the RO and divorce papers. When I came home, he had an officer at the house, so he could get his stuff out of the garage. He looked so angry as he was loading his van. You see, in his world, we are the enemy. He has been telling his buddies that me, and our son, are the violent ones. Then I start "beating myself up" for pushing him away, even though it was fear, and not anger. Good: you see you beat yourself up. Now you can stop yourself from doing that. He's the "nice guy", passive and so giving to the rest of the world, but dumps all the "not so nice stuff" on his family. He just doesn't see it that way, and I have to accept that is his reality right now (denial?), and I am working to not worry about what other people think, since they didn't live with him. Right. There have been a few other witnesses to his "craziness". Even so, I just sat in the house and cried. We gave him the support and encouragement to work on his issues, but apparently we are not worth it, as denial is his main coping tool.

He finally called our daughter after 1 month, but she said "he sounded weird" on the message. She called me at work very upset he didn't ask about her brother. This apparently is his new way of "hurting". The sad thing is, now it's only going to push her away, cause she even said, "I want a relationship with Dad, but not until he gets help. I can't talk to him if he's going to be that way". As everything I say is discounted, I told her to write a letter about how she feels, and we can put it with his mail. It may not change anything on his part, but I think it will help her feel better. Amazing...they are stronger with their boundaries than I am, but I'm getting there, one day at a time.  They don't have the self doubt and guilt you do. That's what you've got to work on!

L

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

HI Jay and Doc,

I read that post too from Mousie. It seems like that other site, the X-rated one, is a better place for her. I am sorry I am not as understanding as Stormy and Kris but I don't find a single funny thing in her posts. I would put her post under "Symptoms of Abuse" as Example #1. Wishing her well, but apologies only go so far. I like the kindness of the Catbox, however PC, and I would prefer to see it continue unscratched. We are all trying to learn something other than what Mousie dishes out; been there, had THAT.

I posted this nice post and it never went, then I lost it to the nether world of my computer. Jay, how was your anniversary? Was that the pizza night? In my vanished post, I suggested that you celebrate anyway and buy yourself a silver something or other. Celebrate the product of the 25 years: HKK! I figured Jake would show up for his own anniversary even if he celebrated in his own current half-assed way.

Seattle Becky, you WILL get to the point where you stop wishing your guy would change. But first you have to accept that he won't ever change. As Dr. Irene has said, acceptance is your only sane choice. It's kind of liberating. For me, it was freeing to accept that my ex didn't love *me* enough to change because that let me off the hook, to go on with my life and be with people who DO love me. If I felt like he didn't love HIMSELF enough to change, I would feel sorry for him and being codependent I would try to build the poor puppy's self-esteem up, so he could change and we could live happily ever after, etc if you catch my drift. It won't happen that way. I have spent a lot of time hoping and wishing my "otherwise wonderful guy" would change, and to my horror I have even spent time RECENTLY wishing and hoping! But it gets really easy once you just let go of that and just know in your heart that the guy will not ever change, sad as it is.

I think everything I was going to say in that other post about Steve's dog has now been said. Better that Steve should have an apartment that allows dogs. Since that must not be possible, better not to use the dog as another issue - must let go a little, Steve - it's only fair to Asha that if she is caring for the dog she has to be able to make emergency decisions without dealing with huffiness - work out emergency contingencies in advance?

Sharon, I am in the US!! I think they have personals in Brazil but where I live I can't imagine ever needing to make friends that way! For a few weeks, though I am in the land of cheese and lakes stuffed with fish, Trubble. Don't cats like cheese too? Or is that only WEIRD cats? Trubble, you should come and visit me, even if I am a craven dog lover. Traitor! I like cats too. I used to have a job where I gave cats BATHS for my daily bread. So come see me Trubble, and you will go home clean and stuffed with good cheese!

Love, Perdida... please higher power, let this post go thru...

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dr Irene

You said: Why are you taking Steve's anger personally?

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, but I don’t think I am taking it personally. That is; rationally I know it has nothing to do with me. Still, I hurt. I can deny that that’s true (I know you wouldn't ask me to do that), or I can acknowledge it, while not ‘acting out’. I can probably learn to hurt less as time goes on, but I think the hurt is there as a signal – is it not? Of course. But you don't live together; you've toned down your relationship. His "stuff" should not be so important anymore - unless, of course, you have not toned things down or you are hoping things will somehow change...

I don’t think my goal is to stop ever feeling hurt – just to reduce it’s impact on me, and to listen very seriously to what it is telling me. (Maybe I haven't taken it seriously enough in the past?) You had not indeed. So you two broke up. Why are you still giving him so much power?

If I try to imagine ‘not feeling hurt’ in that situation, (which is really difficult) I could only visualize a circumstance where Steve meant so little to me that his anger or happiness meant nothing; basically, that I didn’t care about him at all. Try to imagine this instead: Here he goes again. Oh well. Glad I'm no longer in the thick of that!  In other words, disengage emotionally...

Under normal circumstances it would probably be a good time to cut our ties completely. We still work together, so I have to sort my feelings out, but I think what I’m seeing from this is that I need to detach from him in a much bigger way in order to not hurt so much.

I also know that part of this has to do with my feelings of loneliness and isolation. Bingo. That would be one reason why you would be likely to "hang on." That also tells me you haven't yet learned to be alone - which is very different from being lonely and isolated... In other words, you've got some work to do.

Steve didn't bring the dog BTW.

thanks

Asha

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Although I've been on line for just over a year, I'm still pretty much a novice when it comes to using message boards and chat rooms. In fact, the ones on this site are the only ones I use. I've visited message boards on other types of sites and tho I'm interested in the subject matter, don't post because of the sometimes disrespectful combative tone of some of the posters.

If someone is asked to alter the tone of their posts, and they respond with vindictive diatribe, that tells me something about what they and their being here are all about. If Mousie wants to spew venom and call it humor, she is free to go where that sort of behavior is tolerated. IMO, if she feels so good about herself and her "style," she wouldn't lash out in defense; but simply move on.

I also need to say this: those of us who have been around the CB for awhile, understand that this is a place where much hard work is done; where compassion and support are the rule, and straight talk is a requirement.

There! I've gotten my 2 cents in! Becky Thanks Becky.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Funny how the site always seems to have server problems when I'm having a crisis that involves Steve. Is it the universe trying to tell me something? :) Giggle!

This may show up twice or not at all, but I'll give it a try again anyway.... Since I answered this above, I'll delete the re-post.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Perdida, Thanks for your kind words- I hadn't thought of getting anything - it was just the date that got to me and the fact it was what it was - I think cheese causes problems for cats? I had a dog that liked cheese when I was young though - maybe Steve and AJ can tell us! - or Trubble---giggle now this is nice just to spend the morning where the chief worry is if a cat is safe eating cheese or not. I LOVE cheese! Hi everyone else no time to write anymore as I have managed to construct a busy day - giggle -How can I get to two places I have agreed to be at the same time at once. I want to be at both and yet not offend two people! Ah well, I will just take the day as it comes, jay

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Monday, July 02, 2001

GIGGLE_- I just found out why I got that strange email telling me to check the site out! Not God, angels, or even Trubble! Somehow I must have clicked the bit that says Like this Site? Tell a Friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jay Hey, just how do you know? Just because you've explained it away, somehow it didn't happen just when it was supposed to?

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi All,

This is for Asha and Steve,

Why do I know this? Because I am going through it, so I do know what is happening with you two.

Here's my two cents:

Do you two remember last year or maybe not that long ago when I talked about DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, different sets of glasses, seeing different things purely because they have different histories, experiences and perceptions?

OKAY It is Asha's choice if she takes care of the dog, that is fine.

It may be easier if Asha took care of the dog for everyone else but it is Asha's choice (which should be made without guilt).

Asha why is it you don't want to mind this dog REALLY? Deep down do you feel that in the past you've had no choice but to take care of others?

Do you feel you've been put on allot and now you are gonna make sure no one puts on you now?

REMEMBER if you choose to or not to mind the dog it is your choice since it would be using up some of your energy.

If you feel deep inside that you have enough to do already and so can't mind the dog, that is fine!

Though I'd dig deeper. Does it have anything to do with the fact that Steve's ex it feels is putting her responsibilities, her dog, on to you?

I too at times feel angry and unhappy when I feel others are putting their responsibilities on to me.

THAT IS When I truly have to sit with my feelings, journal them, ask myself questions, to get to the whole truth. If it turns out it is because I feel that in the past others have used me. THEN I need to list all of these people and the way they used me. Then I will write how I would now handle these people set limits, detach etc.

When I have processed all of this, I sit and ask myself what limits I need to set if I am to mind this dog. SUCH as authority over giving him pain relief. If I am given responsibility for him then I expect to have some authority.

I might say I will mind the dog between xxx hours and then it goes to Steve's such as I will mind him during the day however, he has to go to Steve's at 7pm etc.

WHEN we set limits/boundaries we don't feel used.

CAN YOU TWO, Asha and Steve also just accept the way each of you responds, sees things, interprets things without feel you need to correct each other.

WHEN you do this you see the way the other really thinks, where they are up to in their growth, (without judgment), WHO THEY ARE AT THIS PRESENT. (Accept this)

THE DOG whether it be Asha's dog or Steve's kids dog symbolizes a lesson you both need to learn. THE SAME ONE MY KEYS REPRESENTED.

The lesson Acceptance of the other without judgment, blame, just accepting how the other sees their reality, this will show you what stage in growth each of you are.

SO KEY WORD ACCEPTANCE. 

I am going through this myself.

Take care Theressa

PS You are both right in your own realities, no need for anyone to take sides. Remember all conflict is about convincing others which is a waste of BOTH YOUR energies. Just accept others have a different take on things!!!

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Kathy,

What has your family meant to you in the past?

Have you been a close family? Were you ever the fixer in the family, the hero, people pleaser, the sweet little daughter who did as she was told?

Dig deep, what did your family mean to you when you were growing up?

What formed did it take?

Did you always save your brothers, or try to help them?

Did you get treated like their little princess, and they protected you?

THIS IS YOUR FIRST JOB find out what your family meant to you, only then will you know the true message. ALL THE ANSWERS are inside, you have to dig for them like this.

Then we will talk some more! 

Take care Theressa

 
Monday, July 02, 2001

Good Morning; I am glad to say that the weekend is behind me and over. It wasn't exactly terrible, but not great either.

As expected, M. didn't ,make it over Friday evening. His first (and only real visit since moving out) was Thursday. He told me then (with great confidence) that he would be over on Friday evening. M. said that he was coming directly here from work. That he didn't want to be around his sister, brother, nephews, (drunken family, et al) on Friday night. I was not terribly excited at the prospect of his arriving on Friday night, because I really didn't believe that he would ever make it here. (I AM learning! Blessed are they that expect nothing from an alcoholic, for they shall not be disappointed). Friday at 4:00,M. left a message on the voice mail. "Karin, it's too late. I'm already drinking...LONG PAUSE...I don't know what to do (to stop drinking? About coming over? Beats me.) Maybe I'll see you tomorrow....And I really do love you." (This is love?) I am glad to say that this message didn't devastate me. (2-3 yrs. ago it would have.) I had a nice dinner with the kids, went in the pool, let my daughter have a friend spend the night (something that didn't work when M. was here. What if he came home drunk and she had a friend over? What if he came home wanting to drink and they drove him crazy, so easy to do when he WANTED to drink. )I went to bed early and enjoyed the security of knowing that M. wouldn't be staggering in during the night, waking everyone and picking a fight. Saturday morning I shut the ringers off on the phone. Not to punish but because I knew M. would call and I didn't very sure of how to deal with him. I wasn't angry at him, but I wasn't up for him "visiting" and then coming here to sleep it off in the a.c. while the kids and I stayed quiet because "he had a rough day on the job Friday" (Rough night at the family flop house is more like it!) M. called at 9:00a.m and had the nerve to leave me a nasty-gram on the voice mail. He said he didn't f------ appreciate me "playing games with him by not answering the phone." And I had "no right to keep him from little M." (Apparently he sees me here waiting for his calls. I wasn't aware that not picking up the phone was a mental game. Guess so. However, saying that you will be over and getting drunk instead "just happens". Maybe I should start telling him that I wasn't ignoring his call, I was drunk. Giggle! Apparently that's an acceptable reason for being unavailable. He showed up at the house an hour later and told me that he and his nephew (grown man, no job, no vehicle, lives with family...can you guess if this nephew drinks?) were taking little M. to visit M.'s family at his sister's house. (Fleas, chronic head lice, thick child protective services file, many drunks under one roof, definite marijuana use, rumored heavier substances). M. was furious when I said no. He told me that he would have little M. back in a few hours. He said it would be o.k. because everyone there was very hung over and wouldn't be drinking till evening, so it was a "safe" time for him to take little M. over there! After M. stomped out, I am sorry to say that I had GUILT PANGS for keeping little M. from spending time with his father. WHY?? I know that no child has any business at that house. Because you have some irrational thinking habits. You can clear them up with clear, logical thinking. .If they had any interest in meeting little M., they were always welcome at our home sober, but they never in 2 1/2 yrs. sobered up and came to see him. I'm sure that they wanted a very noisy active toddler around as they nursed their hangovers! M. called again Sunday morning, very calm and friendly, said he'd like to come over and spend the day, sleep here, and go to work from my house this morning. ("We need to talk," he told me. (Also, could he do laundry here? His sister doesn't have a washer anymore.) I told him he could visit, we would talk%2

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Amy-

Thanks for your words of encouragement.

I have my good days, and bad days. Right now I am in the grieving process. I've tried to be kind and empathetic to my STBX, but anytime he calls, all he is does is throw out blame towards me and our son. When he starts swearing at me on the phone, that's when I say, "I'm not going to listen to you talk to me like that, and then I say 'goodbye'", and hang up.

Friday was tough, as he was served with the RO and divorce papers. When I came home, he had an officer at the house, so he could get his stuff out of the garage. He looked so angry as he was loading his van. You see, in his world, we are the enemy. He has been telling his buddies that me, and our son, are the violent ones. Then I start "beating myself up" for pushing him away, even though it was fear, and not anger. He's the "nice guy", passive and so giving to the rest of the world, but dumps all the "not so nice stuff" on his family. He just doesn't see it that way, and I have to accept that is his reality right now (denial?), and I am working to not worry about what other people think, since they didn't live with him. There have been a few other witnesses to his "craziness". Even so, I just sat in the house and cried. We gave him the support and encouragement to work on his issues, but apparently we are not worth it, as denial is his main coping tool.

He finally called our daughter after 1 month, but she said "he sounded weird" on the message. She called me at work very upset he didn't ask about her brother. This apparently is his new way of "hurting". The sad thing is, now it's only going to push her away, cause she even said, "I want a relationship with Dad, but not until he gets help. I can't talk to him if he's going to be that way". As everything I say is discounted, I told her to write a letter about how she feels, and we can put it with his mail. It may not change anything on his part, but I think it will help her feel better. Amazing...they are stronger with their boundaries than I am, but I'm getting there.

Part 2:

My STBX called me at 5:15AM this morning. Thinks he broke his nose playing baseball with some friends last night. We actually had a nice talk, and he thanked me for picking up the phone. I felt like crap not offering to go to the hospital with him, even though I told him I hope he's okay, and to take care of himself. I then had a crying spell....He knows I've always been there for him, but he made his choices, denying that he needs help, that it's everyone else, not him. Now he has to deal with it. If I ran down to the hospital, I would once again be the "rescuer", and I know I can't go there. That and I remembered that one time I had to drive myself to the hospital because he didn't want to get up. That is what is keeping me from going.

He's pulling on my heartstrings again...It's so hard right now, but I know this is the "Jekyll" phase, and "Hyde" is just around the corner.

I don't know what else to post, except I really needed to get this off my chest right now. I'm not trying to feel sorry for myself, but this sucks. :(

L

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Monday, July 02, 2001

This is a test. I posted on Saturday, don't see the post. I guess Trubble is eating those posts again. Not Trubble this time. Yours truly and the server both messed up.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Theressa....Kathy here.

I'm thinking about your post for sure now, since it is in the catbox several times!!! Maybe I needed to see it that many times in order to get me to think it over and respond to it! So there was a reason for the multiple posts! Glad you saw them before I cleaned it up.

In my family, I am the oldest. And after the deaths of my two sisters, I am the only girl. I have 4 brothers. Yes, I was the "self-proclaimed" fixer in the family. Always trying to make things right for everyone. And of course, failing miserably.

I was my mother's confidant - she always complained to me about my father (who like most daughters, I adored). So I listened to her endless complaints about him just because I was the "dutiful" daughter.

Two of my brothers are mentally ill or something. They were diagnosed as ADD or ADHD but I really believe they are bipolar. All I remember is that they were just wacky and out of control while I was growing up.

As you can picture, my family was very dysfunctional. We went to counseling for a while but it never worked. Nothing ever changed.

I joined the US Army when I was 17 and left. It was the best thing I could've done for myself. I was gone 9 years before I moved back (6 in the Army, 3 living in another state).

I saw my brothers more when I was living away than I do now that I live in the area. That's why I thought it strange last week that I would have contact with 3 out of the 4. I think its some sort of message from God that I should be paying more attention to my mom and brothers.

I'm doing better this week. My daughter is back at her friends' and my van is running so things are quiet at home and I feel independent and able to get around again. I think last week was an exam and I didn't really want to be tested so went into it with a bad attitude. I am OK though - made it through. Hopefully this will be a quiet and uneventful week.

Kathy

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi all, I am new to this site.. I think I have read everything in the last two days. It's been a month since I ended things with my whacked boyfriend. Finally came to see just how twisted things were. For the last year we have dated, it has been a constant cycle of him picking fights, we don't talk for a few days........... then we make up.... things are great for a few days.. then BAM another fight. He is paranoid about me cheating on him and anything triggers this fear. Once in the beginning of the relationship when WE were able to date others............ he stood me up for a date (well he was two hours late, seems his ex-GIRLFRIEND showed up and he had to talk with her)........ I broke up with him........... THEN a few days later I met someone for dinner. I have never heard the end to this........... EVEN thought, he was the one who stood me up, ( he didn't call and say he would be late) which caused the breakup....... not to mention we could date others at that time anyways. When ever he gets into one of his "moods" after fighting about the silliest thing, he then says... "all this triggers how easily you can replace me, that is what I am really upset about". So all this time we are fighting over this trivial thing, and now that you see how stupid the subject is, you NOW say it is this other issue?. I have repeatedly tried to tell him that 1. he stood me up... cause and effect thing 2. EVEN IF we hadn't broken up, I was still able to date others 3. That IF I could have replaced him so easily, I wouldn't have gotten back together with him. Little did I know, that whole scene was only the tip of the iceberg.... Yep, I stuck around for more twisted, warped fights.

Now it has become clear to me........... he loves to fight, it is all part of the "cycle". I used to say to him.... it is so weird when you create a fight (and I would fall for it... get sucked in) you get so energized... you'll clean out your garage etc.. while I take to bed for the day. I never knew anyone who got energized by a fight. Now I see that this was a "high" to him...... because it was a distraction, a diversion from his real feelings. Here's my question... Do abusers ever feel remorse? NOT THAT I LEFT AS A PLOY FOR HIM TO GROW... I certainly did not. My leaving was purely for my own emotional safety. I finally "woke up"..... and saw the dance for what it was! (my part as well) I am just wanting some validation that in fact, he has/had some kind of human-ness going on inside of him. Looking back, he was NOT compassionate about what I felt...... (If he was he would have never done the hurtful things to me, compassion prevents us from doing mean things to another.. or is it integrity?) In the last month, he has tried to "bait" me to fight with him in emails. I have done pretty good at containing myself...;) I do know he is lashing out, so that he can start a fight, because in keeping with his M.O. if there was a fight, then it would explain his foul mood. (as coming from the outside of him, instead of the inside of him)... nice gig, if the other is willing to be the scapegoat. And of course, to make things more confusing........ I do miss him (the good parts)....... BUT, when I am feeling too blinded by the good points, I just go a reread my journals............ where it was one fight after another for NO reason. Tell me this is all a normal part of recovery? You're doing the right thing, reading your journals. Forgive, but never, ever forget... Take care

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Monday, July 02, 2001

To the new person posting; You are exactly right, I think, when you say that you were part of the dance. Now that you are no longer responding the old way to your ex-boyfriend's game, he probably is very angry. You were like a puzzle piece that he knew exactly how to fit into his life. Now that you are changing the way you respond to his treatment of you, it may be forcing him to deal with other things that he doesn't want to look at. Of course you didn't break up to make him change. I didn't throw my boyfriend out to force a change either. But that doesn't mean that you won't miss the good things, or even the company or your old routine. I miss the SOBER M. terribly. But I was seeing him left often anyway and reached the point where the bad was outweighing the good. I am also hoping that his failure to seek help or his blame-game tactics don't mean that he never really loved our son & I. I think that he did in as much as an alcoholic was able to love other people. It sounds like your ex. may be pretty emotionally ill. He probably loves you as much as he is capable of loving another person. But alcoholics (addicts, verbal abusers,whatever) don't even love themselves. And I keep reminding myself that before M. can be capable of fully loving or caring for our son & I, he has to be able to love & care for himself. And right now, he doesn't seem to be doing a great job of that. Re reading your journals is probably helpful. I keep reviewing in my mind what the last 5 months here have been like, off & on. I keep reading al-anon lit. to reaffirm that his failure is exactly that, HIS. This site has been very good for me. Hope it helps you too. Karin

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Everyone

Posted On Saturday, Trubble must be eating posts again - gone into cyberspace somewhere. (Giggle)

Ran a test seemed to come out OK so here goes.

I attended a Group session last week and was confused by something that was said. The counselor said I know instinctively what I need to do to keep me safe and that's why all these years there has only been mostly verbal stuff and a few pushes. When I was talking about an incident that happened last week. I said that I had been thinking over what had happened and when my partner started yelling and name calling I would have been better to say something like "That's your opinion" or "I don't like the way your talking to me" and then detached, left the room. I engaged/explained so it escalated into a huge argument. The counselor kept saying that I did what I did because that's what keeps me safe???? That doesn't make sense to me because if I would have said simply "That's your opinion" and then detached I don't think it would have escalated the way it did. Am I missing something here???  Your partner wants you to explain and pay attention to him. Detaching could risk violence.

Kala

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Everyone,

I just spent my first weekend away from my kids. My husband came Saturday afternoon. The kids and I had to wait until Noon for him to show up. He is still "controlling" my time. I wanted to make the transition go smooth so I held back any comments that he was late and next time could he because I sensed this was done on purpose to provoke me. So, I saved it for later. I will just note next time to ask him to tell me when. When it is court ordered he will be required to give me exact times to pick up and drop off.

It was extremely difficult for me to stay away. My mother was a life saver. She actually set limits on me. Every time I came up with an excuse to go back for something she said, "No, do not go back and set a precedent that you each stay completely away". It was difficult for me to stop my own compulsion. I told her it felt like I was 5 years old and she was setting the limits. She even said, "I am going to stop you from doing this until you can stop yourself." 

I did leave a letter on the table explaining that I realize now it's not my responsibility to make him happy. I told him that I can not change him that he has to want to change himself. I told him I will not allow him to blame me for his misbehavior. I told him I am accepting responsibility for my behavior and doing what it takes to change myself. I added that I feel like he has one foot out the door for the duration of our marriage and that we never had a mutual respect relationship or any real commitment. I feel as though he never intended on "working things out" given his recent behavior. (making a "friend" and blaming me for his behavior) I told him I am accepting that this is who he is and has chosen to behave. I am hurt and in pain. I realize now that it was not my fault he chose to behave this way. He kept telling me "If you would just (fill in blank) then I would....(be happy, not cheat, drink, etc) I asked him to think about all the things he has said to me or about me and realize this is a reflection of who he is. I said, "What I realize now is my reflection was of hurt and pain." I told him that I looked in the mirror and saw a person who deserves to be loved, treated with respect, and dignity now.

Well, I gave him a lot to chew on while I was gone. I guess perhaps I should have just let him figure this all out on his own. I stated my opinion. Now it's up to him to do with what he wants with that bit of information.

Meanwhile, I was extremely depressed this weekend. I asked my doctor to switch me from Paxil to Zoloft. I was on 20 ml of Paxil. I started at 50ml of Zoloft. There was no withdrawal symptoms. I was just so melancholy and crying very easily. I am just not so sure the Zoloft is working as well. I have spent so much time crying and grieving. I don't know if either one would be effective. I feel better today. It's OK to feel pain. Please don't try to blot pain out...

I am making a list of my "stuff" to work on. I can see I have a definite problem with feeling lonely and abandoned. His rejection just about sends me into a state of panic. I get upset and start doubting myself, and going back over what went wrong. I read my books for validation. My mom validates my experience. She blames him (exclusively) when I do realize it took two to tango. I obsess about How could have I changed the outcome. Well, I can't. I can only move on from here. I can see that now but boy, on Thursday. I was just devastated when he told me..."I am done with YOU"...and "If you would just have gone to therapy with me then we could have worked this out but your were too scared." (I guess now I will pay for it) I just hit my hand on my cough (frustration) and said, "That's because there is always another If I would just! Good observation! I will not allow you to Blame me for your behavior. I was only willing to accept responsibility for my behavior! You want me to take on your responsibility too." He started in again about how things could have been different if I would have done what he said....I just covered my ears and walked out. I could not listen to it be forced down me how "If I would have..." I just told him "YOU were done with me before you even started. I could never make you happy no matter what I did. There was never a WE. It was all about YOU, YOU, YOU!" All I ever asked for was "time and space to think". I told him I could not take it any longer. I left to cool off. He wants to tell me how to think, feel, and what happened.

See this is where I am really confused. My therapist realizes I am codependent. So she recommended that I do not go in and try to "fix" him. She says to work on myself. Let him worry about his therapy. He is blaming my therapist now for me choosing to "stay away" for he meantime to push him back on himself. He now blames me because I would not go and hear him out because I could see from his recent behavior he was still blaming me and not changing his behaviors. He continued to lie, manipulate, and drink.....He says that he has gotten over being angry and sees that "WE" had a problem. Now, I don't know if I missed something. Could I have been so afraid to be blamed and not hear that he has realized we each have contributed to the problem? I'm sure you have your part. But, don't even bother looking for it until he takes responsibility for himself and stops blaming the world. He does mention lately that he realizes now that he treated me poorly and he was sorry. He does not feel though he was abusive like I say and controlling me that this was my way of blaming him and not seeing his side? I keep wondering if I should not have gone just to hear him out. My therapist says this will just divert the attention away from what he should be doing which is working on himself. See what is making this difficult is that he is trying so hard to re-write history because he is afraid of admitting he was abusive because this will effect his child visitation in the divorce. He wants to convince the therapist that I was wrong. Ugh. I thought if I backed off he would figure it out on his own. I believe under there somewhere he knows but is afraid to admit it because of the divorce proceeding. He keeps saying "Now we will never know because you were too scared to go." I kept thinking I was protecting myself from being verbally attacked and berated in the therapy session. Now, I should be back working on myself. He is still bullying me and intimidating me by threatening to leave the marriage. I did not want him to do this. I am devastated. Ugh......Then there is part of me that thinks go and do the best you can to not accept his blaming. Stick to the issues of responsibility and trust. It won't work huh? His goal is to "win" not understand. Shoot, I know this!?  Face reality.

My problem has been I have "acted out" and he has passively aggressively pushed me up against a wall (not physically but mentally). I am afraid that he will just use it to gain power over me. I did not do anything "illegal". I just spit and yelled at him to get out of my face. My kids have seen this behavior. He immediately said, "Look how you are behaving in front of the kids! My therapist told me you want to be angry and the "victim"!" (Should he hold up a mirror?) I said, "No I want you to get out of my face!" I reported it to my therapist and their therapist. I immediately felt remorse and told them I would develop my impulse control skill, and redirect the anger. I apologized to my kids. I felt cornered at the time, and repulsed by him. I also found out he was dating another girl while saying he was working things out (translation: twisting it around to appear to be my fault). So he is hanging onto this one incident bringing it up over and over to "win" his point. I definitely learned that no matter what he does to provoke me I am responsible for how I reacted. I just can't take it back now. Now, I feel like he "won" but really if he chooses to use this as his reason to leave the marriage. I can't change that. I figured he wanted to leave anyway he would find excuse eventually. He just forces my hand. I just have not developed the necessary skills to protect my boundaries and feel frustrated. He is using this to his advantage. I just want it all to "stop". He pushes, and pushes me.

See I see his behaviors as "acting out" from his "stuff" inside. I am really trying to separate the behavior from the person. I know I do some pretty self-destructive things to myself. I am trying to change. He is drinking which everyone is saying around the kids with his unresolved anger is dangerous. He says he is learning moderation and self-control. He wants to keep the beer and just drink less. I had no comment. He says he is making peace with his past but I feel he put a band-aid on it and now thinks he is healed. He is still attending therapy. Both therapist are trying to get us both to think it's over just move on to keep us focused on each of own "stuff". I have this romantic notion that we can do this together if we stay focused on our own "stuff" and stop blaming each other. Am I correct? Just worry about fixing you right now.

So, I have learned from that incident what not to do. I really lost it at the time. I felt so pushed and now he has gotten what he wanted.....or has he?

What do you guys think? Should I go and just see what he says. Test my own strength. I can of coarse give it more time. We still have 2 months. I can simply tell him "Okay, the marriage was over anyway. I will just continue to work on me. I only can ask that you work on you. Then when the date comes to sign the paperwork. If you don't want to stay and work it out then just sign the paper." So, I can let go and see what happens. I just have to turn my head so that it does not hurt when I hear he is dating, etc. Why that hurts so much is beyond me, I wanted this pain to stop too.

He drew me this picture of a broken heart....BTW he lays on the guilt thick. I can feel he is still manipulating me. This covert stuff is absolutely nerve wracking.

I can just keep working at this disengaging and not allowing him to provoke me and see what happens. If he can't wait for me to pull myself together. Then it just was not meant to be.

Okay, I am done venting.....It's so hard sometimes to stay focused on what I can change. I get so caught up in all the games and manipulation.....That's my problem. I am easily side tracked.

Thanks for listening guys!

LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Well, real no news on the Dr. Psycho home front. I am doing better as the weeks go on. I've been staying very busy with friends and family. I've met some new men friends on the personal ads. No real weirdoes lately - some pretty decent people - so I'm enjoying cultivating some new friendships there, and getting in touch with old friends as well.

I'm still walking - and down 6 lbs. - and am feeling great. Its been warm here so I go out before it gets hot. I walk 1 hour a day.

So, nothing real new. No 'sightings' - no anything. Its been nice!

Love, Sharon

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Again,

I wanted to add something. When I returned on Sunday. I was good in waiting for them to call me to let me know it was okay to come home. I went home and pictured duct tape on my mouth. I dolled myself up (hee,hee...see what your missing. Nah, I had been out shopping with my mom. But, hey, I looked pretty darn good :) Anyway, a neighbor was in the garage. He left me a letter basically saying "Could it possibly be I need to hold up a mirror" and again pointing his finger at me. I thought, "Yep, could be." I just laid it down. Stayed calm. Hugged my kids, and felt absolutely at peace with me. I knew I was not a bad person, just hurt, and in pain. That's okay.

The house was spotless. He spent the whole weekend fixing the yard, cleaning the house, buying groceries, and taking the kids to the water park, to visit friends, and he was exhausted. I bet it took a lot of energy to avoid "feeling". He was in the garage gulping his last beer. I felt like I was watching him for the first time from the outside. I did not feel like he was "doing" anything to ME. He baited a couple of times and I refused to bite. He got in his truck and said, "Lisa, come here. You look beautiful." I said, "I know. I have always been beautiful, Greg. I just couldn't see it sometimes." He drove away. I held myself together for my kids. I truly missed him but I knew I was going to be okay.

What a little time and space did for me this weekend. I guess it won't be so bad after all if he does decide to divorce me and remain the same. I realize it's not my fault. I did the best I could. I am doing what I can humanly possible to change myself and protect myself. If he can't wait for me or accept me then I guess like he says "We will never know what could have been." 

Thanks again.

LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

LisaMM....

Just read your two posts - you sound much better in the 2nd one.

It seems to me that he's just trying to get you back into your old behavior patterns of trying to fix everything for him and being the doormat that he once had.

Don't fall for it!

You've come a long way in realizing that YOU are important and deserving of respect and love.

It seems to me he's just trying to manipulate you - testing you to see what riles you and how he can get you to react to him. Don't give him the satisfaction. Detach...be cool to him....pretend not to hear his yukky comments.

Hang in there....

Kathy

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Kala,

What you might be missing is that your subconscious may know that if you set a boundary and detach that that behavior may be the thing that escalates it over the top (either through subtle signals from him or because of a past experience of yours). Have you read The Gift of Fear? Lots of good info about what your fear is telling you and how those gut feelings are based on logic--even though you aren't aware of it.

Friday

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Monday, July 02, 2001

hi, I just don't know where to begin. I am in a relationship with a man that has to control everything I do, he has even told me I love my children to much and him not enough. he makes me believe I have said things that I have not and I get punished for it, and he keeps telling me I deserve it, there are no ties between us but I just cant seem to let him go. my family fears for my safety yet I still insist on staying with him. I am 31 and he is 38. I need help but don't know where to look please help.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

I've been very busy lately and have been trying to catch up on some reading of the Catbox messages. I seen some things that were going on in my relationship in here still. I got a lot of information from one post about not provoking or was it not confronting the abuser. I totally understand where that person was coming from. My husband will follow me and corner me in the kitchen or wherever I go in the apartment. I tried what it says to do in the book "The Abusive Relationship". The last time I put my hands up and face them towards him and said stop I wound up in the shower, fully clothed. What or how do you react to that. What I do is go totally blank and let him do whatever at that point. I know there is no way of getting around him. He hasn't put me in the shower for a good long time ever since I told him that I didn't think it as being funny and it was totally unacceptable. Now he just picks me up and drags me around. The last time he did the was about two weeks ago and I just screamed in his ear. He let me down and them yelled names at me. I did something after that but an not sure of how I want or should deal with that. I wrote to his parent's and told them what he does and that he won't let me touch him in the morning and how he controls me and about his anger and rages when I ask him why repeatedly to get a simple answer. At first they were shocked, then I explained myself to his mother over the phone as to what he does and about reading that book and all the counseling I went to. Now they want to know how they can help and if they should show him the letters that I wrote to them and they wrote back to me. He is going to visit them at the end of July, but I won't be going because I have other matters to attend to. They want to know if they should say anything to him then. I really don't know, because he just turns my words around (and I explained that to them). I am afraid of his anger and they now know that. I am afraid of what he will do when he does get back home if they do tell him, but at the same time I want them to talk to their son to see how he really gets. I know they understand and I know that they want his side of the story, but they now want to know how to help. What should I tell them? I wrote him a note the other day and I told him how I felt and that he was being really sweet to me, but at the same time being distant. I pointed out that he goes to bed much later that I do and gets out of bed now earlier than I do and he wears his day clothes to bed. I already told him that I have adjusted myself so as not to put my arm around him in the morning when waking up. He said that he wanted to talk about my note. He asked if I had a problem. I said no, I didn't. I asked him to repeat what I stated in the note. He told me that I said that I didn't like the way he showed his affection to me. I said that is not what I said in the note. He tried to provoke a fight or argument by saying that I got upset because he wore his shorts to bed. I just let the conversation drop. I forgot to say "So you say" as it says to say in the book. When I didn't say anything, I get the feeling that he thinks that he won. Is that what it was about?

Debbie

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Thanks Kathy,

I do feel like he is manipulating me. I am just one of those people that pull over to save kittens from the side of the road. I need to keep in mind that I could get hit by a truck if I am not careful.

I just know how the game goes. He misbehaves and blames me. I set limits. He gets mad and pushes me away. I feel bad because he suffers. I can't handle watching him suffer. I take him back. He is good for a little while. Then when I am vulnerable he pulls the rug out from underneath me. I suffer for his actions.

Thank you so much for reminding me! It's manipulation. Again, I will just keep my distance and see what he chooses to do. Meanwhile, I am thinking "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake Up!" It's all right in front of him and he can't see it.

:) LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi all-

Today my STBX left me one nasty voicemail at work, and then one at home apologizing that "I should ignore the voicemail at work". He confirmed his nose is broken from baseball last night. Amazing, the man couldn't pick up a baseball with his son who played AAU baseball, but he can play it with his drinking buddies (I didn't say this to him. .just venting--sorry!). Then he tells me they need to re-break it and set it, but he isn't going to let them do that. Um...okay, your choice I tell him.

I did call him back. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I wanted to see how his nose was doing, and I just can't be that uncaring. He again apologized about the voicemail, that he's in pain and hurting, and that's why he was upset, and I just said okay, well I have to go now.

Then he proceeds to call me a liar (again, his version of all of his episodes are different than those who witnessed it), that he wants the divorce because he can't live with a liar, that I've changed, then he asks me if I can help him with his business books?! I nicely told him, sorry, but I can't help you out with that. Then he gets mad he's going to have to get a bookkeeper, that I was never there for him, yada yada yada.

I finally had the nerve to say, "yes, I was there for you. I took care of both the kids, worked full-time, took care of the house inside and out, groceries, dishes, personal finances, PTA, and your business books. How can you say I did nothing? I asked for one thing I really wanted to do (go back to college 2 nights for 1 1/2 hours--after he closed his 1st business), and you paged me out of class and screamed at me about picking our daughter up from basketball. That was 2 years ago, and I never went back. Who are you talking about? Me or you?" Then he tells me all I do is listen to my counselors and they destroyed our marriage. I said, no, you kept telling me I was the problem. I wanted our marriage to work, so I was willing to listen to what I had to hear. What I heard was I was not all of the problem. I was taking on more than a household of 2 adults should, that I was codependent, and needed to stop giving my life energy away to everyone else. Then I could have more energy, be less frustrated, because I would be taking better care of myself. Then he says, "well, I liked you the way you were, not now. You won't go out and drink with me, and I told you 22 years ago, no woman is ever going to tell me what to do (don't remember that one, but okay...)". So I just say, "You're right. I'm not going to tell you what to do. It is your life, and you have the right to live it the way you want. But this is also my life, and I and the kids don't need to live in fear of what you are going to be like when you come through the door. This is my choice". Amazingly, the conversation ended quite calmly after I said this. I told him to take care and said goodbye.

Many of these other posts have the same basic things mentioned in this conversation. The blame they put on us and our therapists/counselors. Our "recovery" is clearly a threatening thing to them as they resist doing their own work, and still want to be taken care of.

I don't hate him, and know that he loved us the best way he could. Everyone says I should be angry, but I can honestly say I have more pity for him at this point. He just doesn't want to look in the mirror, because if he did, he would hate what he sees, and maybe he just can't deal with that. That's sad. I think the reality of "what is" is getting clearer to me everyday. While it's unpleasant, I think denial is a worse place to be.

They tell us to change, then when we do, it's "change back!". I think I read this in "The Dance of Anger" about 5 years ago. When we stop doing the dance, it screws up their whole world.

L

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dr. Irene (and group)

Thank you for your last response. It made a lot of sense to me.

I think you are right that all along I was hoping for things to change, although I have detached a lot. I also react when a ‘situation’ happens in front of the kids. This is also emotional for me, because they are innocent in this and I do believe it impacts them negatively. But I have no control over it, so I need to let it go.

I realize I have still been emotionally dependent on him. As someone pointed out to me once, not having a physical relationship doesn’t mean you aren’t in a relationship.

I meditated on the purpose of this ‘lesson’ for me and the word that came to mind was ‘strength’.

Much of our relationship has been work, and I love my work with Steve. It’s harder to withdraw when you see someone so often.

Today I made a decision. Steve needed to drop by and get some things (they are going camping), and I really didn’t feel strong enough to face another ‘episode’, especially in front of the kids.

I told him to call when they came by so I could go somewhere else. I did have a feeling that he may think I was doing this as punishment, but I decided that regardless of what he thought, I really couldn’t handle being there today.

He was respectful about it and called. He also told me how long he expected to be there. I left when they were on their way and went for a walk out to a pond.

I felt such a sense of peace – it was like my little vulnerable self was saying “thank you”. Because of my concern for others, I don’t always protect myself. I am learning though... slowly.

Theressa

Your post about ‘acceptance’ was very on target. I think I have to face that it’s time for Steve and I to let each other go peacefully on the personal level, rather than handing each other crumbs because our emotional resources have been used up. I guess neither of us are capable of offering the “whole cake” any more.

I do think Steve is enormously talented, likeable and we have many common interests – this is what gets in the way of me seeing ‘what is’. When things are ‘even-keeled’ I think I tend to forget the bad stuff and expect it not to resurface. This is irrational thinking on my part.

I think sometimes there is a point when you have tried and tried to rebuild and your faith in the ability to accomplish the rebuilding just simply dies.

My acceptance needs to transcend Steve and also include my own limitations. I have to face the fact that I have nothing left to give Steve emotionally any more.

Though it seems sad to me when 2 people love each other but can’t make it work, I don’t believe in accidents. I think it is far healthier to see these encounters as aids to our growth, if we are indeed willing to grow.

thanks both of you.

L

I just read your post and I think it’s really cool that you are not angry with him. Really, what’s the point? It would hurt *you* the most in the end.

We all go through our phases, but the sooner we get into acceptance, the better off we all are, I think.

take care

Asha

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi.

I must admit that I am extremely nervous about posting to this board - mostly because I am just beginning to realize that I am (and have been for about 8 years) in a verbally/emotionally abusive relationship and by posting to this board I am finally admitting this to myself.  Good for you for posting then!

Everything became so clear this past weekend when my husband broke down a door (he did so much damage that the door and frame all have to be replaced) and kicked several holes in a wall. My precious 3 year old little girl witnessed it all and two days later is still traumatized.

He subsequently left and finally called today to tell me that he is out of town and visiting with his "buddies". He is not remorseful -if anything he is determined to blame the entire argument on me.

I am having a hard time believing that I am in this mess - I honestly thought I was smarter and more aware than that! Now of course I am trying to figure out how to get out. I have little money; I am miles away from family; I don't have a strong network of friends here yet as we just recently moved; and I have two young children to look after. My sister says that I need to take things one at a time and not to look at the whole picture because every time I do that I scare myself silly. I know that I can't keep sticking my head in the sand (for my sake and that of my children) but I am not feeling too secure right now.

I don't know what I am looking for from these boards, but I do know it is kind of reassuring to know that there are people there that understand exactly what I am going thru.

Thank you. Cindy

PS - The material on this site really has helped to clarify things in such a way that I can't really deny the abuse anymore.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Kathy, Theressa here,

YOUR co-dependent buttons are showing. So you interpret seeing your brothers as a message that you need to TAKE MORE CARE OF YOUR MOM and brothers.

I think it means something more healthier than this, I think it is a message that Kathy really can't take on the burden of their lives anymore, her own is too important. What do you think, Kathy?

If you started fixing them, paying them more attention, would you feel used?

IT isn't them who need more attention honey, it is you. THIS IS THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR, YOU NEED TO MAKE YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN THE PRIORITY IN YOUR LIFE.

Your mom expected way too much from a little girl. She reversed the roles of parent-child to YOU being the parent and her the child. She did this when she bothered you with adult problems, and most of all when she used you as a sounding board to put your father down.

No little girl should have to put up with this, You should have been allowed to LOVE your daddy without knowing of your mothers problems, they were her issues to sort out not yours.

IT IS time for Kathy to start looking after her own family. Hence the message you were suppose to get when you saw your own family.

Hope this helps Take care Theressa

Hi Theressa....Kathy here.

I'm thinking about your post for sure now, since it is in the catbox several times!!! Maybe I needed to see it that many times in order to get me to think it over and respond to it! So there was a reason for the multiple posts! Glad you saw them before I cleaned it up.

In my family, I am the oldest. And after the deaths of my two sisters, I am the only girl. I have 4 brothers. Yes, I was the "self-proclaimed" fixer in the family. Always trying to make things right for everyone. And of course, failing miserably.

I was my mother's confidant - she always complained to me about my father (who like most daughters, I adored). So I listened to her endless complaints about him just because I was the "dutiful" daughter.

Two of my brothers are mentally ill or something. They were diagnosed as ADD or ADHD but I really believe they are bipolar. All I remember is that they were just wacky and out of control while I was growing up.

As you can picture, my family was very dysfunctional. We went to counseling for a while but it never worked. Nothing ever changed.

I joined the US Army when I was 17 and left. It was the best thing I could've done for myself. I was gone 9 years before I moved back (6 in the Army, 3 living in another state).

I saw my brothers more when I was living away than I do now that I live in the area. That's why I thought it strange last week that I would have contact with 3 out of the 4. I think its some sort of message from God that I should be paying more attention to my mom and brothers.

I'm doing better this week. My daughter is back at her friends' and my van is running so things are quiet at home and I feel independent and able to get around again. I think last week was an exam and I didn't really want to be tested so went into it with a bad attitude. I am OK though - made it through. Hopefully this will be a quiet and uneventful week.

Kathy

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dearest Asha and Steve,

I personally think you both need to work on your own stuff and heal it first.

Then in the future maybe you can make it more if you want to.

I am not the best to counsel anyone on separation and letting go. I am still in turmoil myself over this. I do know that just before my partner sent me a letter at Christmas I was moving on. Even when I received his letter I was made up to move on. Then in the letter was a sentence that dragged me back "You never know" Meaning it could work.

Well me being me, I was too curious to move on.

BUT I do know you have to do what FEELS right for you, remember there are no mistakes. They are all just lessons. Everything unfolds as it should do. Have faith in GOD.

Take care Theressa Theressa, how are you doing without Ron? Where did he go? Do you have a new therapist?

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi to all; Lisa: You sound so much better in the 2nd post. It was a relief to read your 2nd one. There is a satisfaction to knowing that you look well, isn't there. I have always heard the saying that living well is the best revenge. I am seeing the full truth to that saying. M. came over yesterday. He called as I was cleaning up the dining room. M. asked to come over but he said he would be awhile as he had to make his dinner. (Translation; If I ate at your house, I would be there sooner) I told him that would be fine. He asked what we had for dinner. (We really had salads & baked fish, because that's our favorite, but I lied and said we had pork chops & scalloped potatoes, because that's his favorite.) When he got here the house was clean, I looked wonderful, the fridge is stocked, little M. looked (as always) like a doll, the yard looked tended, the patio (a lovely little space of mine that M. always had cluttered with junk) had been cleaned & looked inviting. (It's amazing how busy I can stay. I have even sanded & painted my white iron patio furniture in the last week.) What really got to M. was that I had (OH HORRORS!) cleaned "his" garage! The garage, which is attached to the house, has been so dirty for the last year that I couldn't even put a vehicle in it. I often had to walk out the front and around the house w/ little M. because I was afraid that he would get hurt or step on something. Sunday (the day M. never showed because he never found his car keys) I used my hurt and anger to clean that space. I threw away wrappers & plastic bags, old wood that M. had been saving for "a big project", put every tool I found in the giant (formerly empty) tool box, swept up nails & screws, threw away old coffee cans (that M. was saving to "get organised with). You get the idea. I cleaned until I could run the outdoor vac on the floor. I even washed all the garage windows. M. was most vexed. ("You got rid of my STUFF! You shouldn't touch my garage!" I felt like Scarlet O'Hara, making a dress out of the draperies; "Fiddle Dee Dee, they are my poiteres now!") I just shrugged and told him that he knew it had been a sore point for a long time w/ me. M. would start a project, never finish it, leave the pieces everywhere, and start a new one. Let's see, we had the beefed up riding mower phase, the model rocket phase, the hovercraft phase, the building bird houses for fun-and-profit phase, and so on. I have since learned that alcoholics tend to do that. Projects are much like relationships to M. ,they seem like a good idea at the beginning, he quits in the middle when it gets tough, and he leaves the aftermath for others to clean up & deal with. Anyway, it was a nice visit, but I know that M. would have felt better if I had been softly sobbing into a grungy dish towel in the middle of a messy house when he had arrived. He wanted to know how I found all the time & energy to do everything. I told him that once I sobered up, quit drinking and stayed out of bars, I could do anything. He just looked dumb. (I don't drink, & I never liked bars.) Anyway, M. has decided that e is an alcoholic (Nooooo!) Remember last Thursday, he was sure he wasn't & the only problem he had was I was paranoid. Amazing that a blackout weekend has put a little scare into him. Really amazing is how much clearer things are when he is gone & I can put his behavior into perspective with healthy people & sane conversation. Karin

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Cindy,

Welcome! I think it's good you're here, because you are realizing that while it's normal for people to disagree, someone kicking down a door is not the "norm". Of course your daughter is upset, cause witnessing something like that is scary to an adult, never mind a child! The lack of remorse by your husband is a big wake up call. That's what blew me away after my STBX's first incident. He would not admit his actions or trauma he caused to his family. Still won't. Fine for him to blame the argument on you. But to not take the responsibility for his actions, then ignore the impact on the children...I believe that's denial.

I felt the same way. I thought I was smarter and should have known better too. Matter of fact, it seems like there are a lot of smart people on this site, smart people who try to rationalize and explain their partner's behavior. We seem to follow our hearts before our heads. Believe me, I still struggle with this one. What I finally realized is I had to work on me and figure out why I was putting up with it, and why was I so damned determined to think I could fix it!

You are right that you can't keep "sticking your head in the sand". Boy...I heard this one from some good friends, would pull my head out, and stick it back down after more promises of change followed by temporary bliss. It's hard to keep your head out when you have a caring heart, but you are right when you say you need to for your sake, and the sake of your children.

You sister is giving you excellent advice. One day at a time, and don't look at the big picture, because it can be extremely overwhelming. Baby steps...the craziness can change how you feel one day, or even one hour to the next, as the situation is so close, and we can be easily convinced by "irrational guilt" that it's our fault completely.

Take first things first. If you are new to your area, try to see if your local police department can recommend a domestic violence center, or if alcohol is involved, try Alanon, counseling, or keep surfing this site. The first thing you need to do is take care of you and your children, and the more you learn to distance yourself from the situation, the clearer the picture becomes.

Don't worry about feeling insecure right now. Your world has been turned upside-down. These boards are a great way to purge those feelings, and know you are not alone (unfortunately).

Good luck Cindy and hang in there.

L

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Cats;

I noticed how lots of people write in stating that setting limits certainly produces results with an abuser. I think it's true for the most part, but in my past experience, I noticed that setting limits with the abuser most of the time gives them fuel to try something else, or something worse. If you ask them to stop calling you a so-and-so, they may stop calling you *that particular thing*, but they'll find another name to call you instead. Right. Even worse, they may refuse to respect the boundary you have set, as if they are saying "No, I can do whatever I want. I am in control here. Your opinion does not matter." Yes. But, you have to start somewhere... In my past, for example, after my "partner" would call me some incredibly insulting name, I'd tell her to please stop. Her response was to tell me I was too sensitive, couldn't take a joke, and then tried to make me responsible by telling me "I can't say anything to you without you being hurt by it. That just proves that you're not my type!!!" The one that got me the most was "Every time you say I've hurt you, you're only hurting yourself." Pure blame-shifting. Another time, I asked her to please stop calling me names. She responded by saying I was trying to "manipulate" her. Crazy-making!!!! She never bothered to notice that I never called her names, other than terms of endearment, under any circumstances. When I finally told her this, her response was total silence. It's as if setting limits is seen by the abuser as a challenge. You set a boundary, they find another one to try and tear down. Beware, you'll never win. I still think the only solution for the victim is to kick the abuser out of their life, as incredibly hard as that is. Often, that is exactly what has to happen... They only change when they're ready to take responsibility for their actions, which may or may not ever happen... XX.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi Cats,

A theme that has been striking me in the Box lately, maybe because it's happening to me too, is the Ex's being the ones who now say they want divorces or that there's no hope, etc etc, when we decide that we will stand up for ourselves, not permit abuse, distance ourselves emotionally, and so forth. It's the sheer irony of it.

Yes, I understand it intellectually - we are no longer available to be dumping grounds or tension release targets and so the primary function of the relationship is no longer there for the abuser, making the relationship (on its way to health) no longer fulfilling for the abuser while at the same time it's the only chance for US to want to stay.

I guess I am musing on the mechanics of the thing. It really is a different reality. But so many of us are saying our abusers want the divorce, just as the guy I didn't even think I had feelings for informed me there was no chance of us getting back together (HUH?!), even Jake says this even while he won't let Jay go!  It really doesn't lend itself to be understood. It defies all logic. Yes, and no. It's often a defensive posture. I'll get rid of you before you can get rid of me.

L's post of yesterday kind of says it all. I think I will go get The Dance of Anger!

Asha, I had a similar feeling about my ex, that I enjoyed talking to him and doing friend things that didn't get into the relationship madness - and I don't understand that either, but there it is. I can tell Steve is a great guy as you say, and I can see that you like working with him. Can you partition off your mind so that you get to enjoy that part while leaving the crazy stuff in some other cobwebby attic of your brain where you don't have to look at it anymore? Does that sound weird? It just seems that you have this friend whom you really do like in many contexts, and it seems too bad to lose that part. Maybe I am suggesting something superhuman. I had five months of total space from my ex before I was able to even think about the friendly part, and I am still not sure about friendship - it's new territory for me.

Happy Tuesday, Cats!

Love, Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi again Cats,

I don't understand the lack of remorse that L and Cindy referred to - that was my Ex's MO too. I've read that physical abusers get real remorseful and bring flowers and beg to be forgiven. Why would someone who puts on a display of rage, like Cindy described and that I saw enough of myself, then never EVER apologize or acknowledge, even blaming the target (us)?

I pointed out to my ex that he had NEVER apologized, not even the one time he acknowledged he had been wrong, and he said he apologized over and over again to his recollection. That was insane. Does that mean he is dangerous, psychotic, whatever? In psychiatric diagnostic manuals (i.e. DSM-IV), lack of remorse indicates sociopath! Not enough data to diagnose or predict dangerousness. But, he does have problems!

Love,

Why-am-i-still-thinking-about-this-because-i-must-need-to Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Debbie here. I wanted to ad some things to my post of yesterday. I am sorry that all the spelling is messed up. I was trying to get it all down, but didn't accomplish that. Anyway...... Since reading the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship ", by Patricia Evans I have noticed allot of things about my relationship and how to overcome them. Is it natural to sit and look at your partner after reading that book, to keep asking or searching for an answer as to who he really is and why he really wanted to marry you? I am also getting kind of angry, with him and with myself. I am angry because he is doing this to me and I am angry because I have let him do this to me. Is that normal? Yes. I am trying to control that anger in me because I don't want the anger to control me. Does that make sense? Yes. Now when he tells me to get dressed for bed and asks me all sorts of questions concerning that, i.e. are you going out?, are you expecting anyone? etc.. I just tell him No, that I don't want to get in my "sleepy clothes" right now. I also comment to him that I don't like being treated like a child. On Sunday I had to make an emergency phone call (I am now the wife of the Grand Knight for our Knight's of Columbus Council and in being that I have responsibilities and was setting up a dinner for the reception of the new Officers. To me that is a reflection on me as to well I can put it all together. I don't know how much food will feed how many people of a large group yet.) to get more food. On the conversation I told the person on the other end that "I was having a cow." It's just a phrase and the other person was laughing with me, but we got it together. After the phone call my husband asked me if they were laughing "AT" me. That really upset me and I retorted that no they weren't laughing at me they were laughing "with" me. He said "whatever". That just riles me. I think that he is realizing that I am noticing what he is doing to me and he can't push any buttons anymore. Am I on the right track?

Clarification as to why I wrote to his parent's. He had a bad car accident some 16 or so years ago and as of that accident he had a closed head injury and reading on that subject (extensively!) it is a normal part of the person afterwards to have some level of anger. Well I just wanted to know if they had noticed that level of anger and rage from him. His mother at first said no that she has never noticed him as being angry or upset about anything. She kept telling me that they are a very loving family. I know that, this is one of the things that I looked for in seeing if my husband and I were compatible before we got married. I reassured her that is why I married her son. After that is when she knew that I was not making this up and that is when they wanted to help me.

Sincerely, Debbie

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

What are your control dramas (ways you attract attention), where did they begin in childhood? How do they help you get attention?

For instance when you fix things you get attention from your abuser he or she things you've come around to their way of thinking.

ARE YOU ALWAYS OPEN TO ALL others have to say? Or are you defensive?

PLEASE remember no one passes through your life by accident what message do they have about YOU? Maybe it is a message that you need to work on an issue deep inside you.

E.g. For me I need to fix my defensiveness. Two occasions in the last two days I've been