Comments for Catbox 17

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 25, 2000

S1

Dear Trubble and Everybody in the Cat Box,

Merry Christmas. We've been busy, but had a great day. We're hoping all of you the best Holiday.

Love,

Dan and Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 25, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box Honeys again,

Wholly Cats, where have I been? Helping Santa, I guess. The boards are great, the new style is super and I love it. Great! Just reading a few and we haven't been able to use the webtv much lately. Too slow. Must be the holidays.

If our last post didn't go through Merry Christmas to all of you Honeys.

Great Pic Trubble! I Love it! Thanks FakeMommy

Love,

Dan and Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000

S1

New years resolution: Don't get upset about trifle!

(There is an English expression "don't get upset about trifles (meaning small things) and an English dish jelly (jello) on sponge with fruit topped with custard then cream and then usually sugar strands on those silver balls you get from cake shops. Sometimes it has sherry in. Yum!

It is Christmas day and I am cooking dinner. We have the traditional pudding made so there is no problem over that. What does Jake do just as I have every pan on the stove etc. Enters the kitchen with the intention of making trifle. The and there! And he was even holding two bananas at the going black stage to go in it. (Am I married to a gorilla? )

Banana custard again????

Anyhow guess who lost it big time. Not Jake who didn't in the end make trifle. But me .....out of all proportion. On and on.

I can just see this one in the divorce courts...my client was verbally abused for trying to make a trifle.

His wife is unfit so my client should have Custardy of the Human Cat Kid.....

But seriously this is what gets me every time. Was it done on purpose?

There were other things that didn't add up like why if I was going out at 10.30 did Jake lock himself in his study to play guitar after a peaceful Xmas eve. Said he would come out after I had gone....

It made no sense. And I engaged big time in that one.

Such stupid things to be upset over. If I was out then how could what he was doing be so important. In the light of day, I can't see why it was.

Where does being a victim end and becoming an abuser oneself start?

I have to learn to leave the stupidity with him and not to react again. (Used to be able to). Have to start looking after me. Yippeee!

Hope you all had a good Christmas. Actually we weren't fighting all the time and it was pretty peaceful when I wasn't mad about the trifle. Still is. Daughter as I could have predicted is now back into loving her mother mode.

I am not going to do the codependent thing and ring her. She wants to cut her brother's hair and if they want to do that she will have to come here anyway as she isn't allowed to see him alone. (For his protection).

Even if I am puzzled where it came from I did manage to forgive Jake. The above about the trifle is meant to be a bit humorous with a point!

love jay  Good stuff!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000

S1

I read some of the stories, and I can relate to most of them. I have been with a man for twenty years. He is and has always been very abusive, verbal to me but also verbal and physical to my children.

When I met him, he was so loving and bought my children, bikes and other toys. I know today, this was just a ploy to get to me.

I have five children by my first husband. My youngest son was only two years old when I met him. He has always called him names, hit him, called him fagot, sissy or stupid. My son now is 21 years old and "THANK GOD" has found a wonderful wife and has a beautiful daughter.

My youngest daughter has a three month old daughter and a three year old. She had to stay with me for a couple of days and one morning we woke up and the house was freezing. I went down to the furnace room and he had taken the fuse out of the furnace. At three o'clock that afternoon I told him that I knew what he had done and for him to put the fuse back in the furnace because the baby was ill at that time. He said he didn't know what I was talking about. Anyway, there was a big fight, he called the police and told them I was being mean to him. I told them what he had done and the police asked him if he did. Of course, he denied this. After the police left, he told me he had taken the fuse out because he didn't like any of my children.

This is only one incident that he has pulled. I've had my clothes cut up, my possessions destroyed, my car taken and hid for a week, my friends are no good, my children are stupid, but on the other hand his children are perfect. My children would go to bed at night only to wake up the next morning to find their toys destroyed. Of course, he didn't do it.

After twenty years, and after he turned off the heat on my grandchildren I am walking out. I have told him, and of course he tells me I cannot survive out there by myself, that I am trailer trash.

Five years ago I had cancer. GOD saved me, healed my cancer, healed my soul, healed the hurt I had inside. I am never alone, I know when I walk out that door GOD will walk with me, and I know I cannot truly heal until I am out of that house and away from him. My problem is that I own the home with him. Both of our names are on it and he will not sell, so I have contacted a lawyer to help me get away from him. But he has told me my whole life, that if I ever left him he would hurt my children. He can. One time he hired a gang member to beat up my youngest son, he paid him $100.00 to do this. I knew when they were sitting outside my home for about a week. When I asked him about it he said he got scared that they would really hurt my son bad, so he had called it off. They were just sitting there to scare my son.

Please pray for me that GOD will help me get out of this house as soon as I can. Pray that GOD protects my children.

Thank You for listening. You've got our prayers...

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000

S1

Hi all,

I hope you are all doing great!

Becky, you are sounding good. I hope that all is well? Something I thought you'd get a kick out of- one of my friends bought me "The Stepford Wives" in book form as a Christmas present! I had to giggle when I opened it! It's become sort of an ongoing funny with us.

Astrid, Lynn, Dan, Theressa, Steve, Asha, Jay, AJ, anyone I left out- Happy rest of the Holidays (whichever way you celebrate)!

Love,

Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000

S1

Is Goodbye the Answer?

I have been in a relationship with an individual who is from Venezuela. She is beautiful (physically) and I originally fell in love with her when she was coming off of a physically abusive relationship herself. Her ex boyfriend is now in prison for patricide and matricide (killing his mother and father) on separate occasions.

I am a clean cut, law abiding American man 30 yrs old, living in Salt Lake City, Utah. My wife really is not from the genre that her ex boyfriend is from, however when we were first married, I noticed a lot of physical manifestations of problems that have plagued me for two and 1/2 years thus far. Never before marriage did I witness any of her outbursts. The day we were married, however, I noticed an immediate and drastic change from her sweet demeanor. I did not close the shower curtain after the shower, she screamed at the top of her lungs at me for almost an hour calling me a pig and sloppy person for not returning the curtain to the closed position after my shower. Nice honeymoon stage.

In the beginning of the marriage, she wielded a large kitchen knife at me, threw a bar stool (in my home) at my chins, hit me and cursed at me. This is when I first attempted to divorce her. She tried to convince me that she had come off of a difficult relationship and needed time to improve herself. I allowed her time, but told her that if there were any further manifestations of violence toward me, I would not be so kind. There was and a four day crying apology ensued. I forgave her again. I also realized at the time how incredibly nice and sweet she can be when she wants to be. So I conceded and did not proceed with the divorce (this was about three months into the marriage). About three months later amidst arguments of whether I was looking at other women's "asses" in the shopping mall or flirting with clerks (none of which are true) and her controlling every second of free time I had-- I was watching football on television on a Saturday (unlike a lot of men, I rarely watch sports programs on T.V.) she came out and turned off the television telling me that I was ignoring her. When I told her that I did not want to turn the television off, she stood in front of the television almost daring me to come turn it on. I didn't fall into the trap of my wife trying to force confrontation, I walked to the nearest sports bar, had a coke and watched the game there. Which brings me to a commonality I have noticed in verbal abuse cases. She says, family shouldn't be in our disputes. She even said things like, "The reason your family hates me is because you tell them about the arguments we have." But there had been other occasions of attempted forced confrontation. One time (and this is more recent, so all of the therapy and anger management and my efforts for two years are out the window) I was online emailing a friend or relative, she accused me of ignoring her because I am not paying full attention to her. She then said that I had better get off line or else she would cut the phone cord to the computer. I was not going to respond to threats, because it gave her more power, so I said, I wish you wouldn't do such a thing-- faster than I could annunciate the letter "G" in the word "thinG" she was cutting the cord, not just once, but into about twenty pieces throughout the length of the cord. Now, she knew that the only way that I could stop her (with scissors in her hand) was to physically stop her. I did not, I just left the house and bought a new cord. (oh yea, threatening-- that is another commonality). She often says things to me like, "You just wait, when you least expect it I will..." I tried to divorce her at this point again and because money was tight and I could not move out of my brand new home, I decided to stay in and lock the extra bedroom. This is when she began her campaign of sleep deprivation. She would have to work late in the day and myself, very early in the morning. She would stay at the door, pick the lock and cry and ask me why I was going to go through with this divorce that we had not even tried counseling and that she was willing to change and do anything it took to keep our relationship alive. After about two weeks of her staying and weeping loudly at my door until 4am (I wake up at 6am)- I gave in feeling sorry for her, asking myself, what will she do without me to take care of her, thinking her income level will go down quite a bit and since Utah is not a 50/50 state when it comes to divorce, I knew she would be getting the short end of the stick no matter what. So foolishly, I agreed to reconcile again if she would attend counseling sessions. (by the way, in an abusive relationship, it is not good for the abused person to attend the session with the abuser) the ignorant therapist did not realize this and invited me to attend.) Not true. It can be very a very useful technique in the right hands.

Now, she has changed, she has never thrown a chair at me or wielded a knife at me since the first incident although she has hit me twice or three times. But it is her anger, jealousy, possessiveness, distrust and ignorance (of what to do in argument situations) that drove her abuse-- that is continuing. Now she has started name calling and saying that my friends call and hang up on her. There is also still a great amount of distrust (that has existed since the beginning although there has never been a reason to distrust me). On Christmas, I wanted to deliver some gifts to my friends house (consequently, my friend, because of my wife's negativity and the way she ruins any social event we have ever been to-- my wife has been disallowed to come to his house-- at he and his girlfriends request.) A reasonable request given the circumstances. Well, I get to talking to him and take a little more time than I expected, I call my wife and tell her I will be leaving his house shortly (I called out of respect for her). She was angry and said something, I do not quite remember and hung up. However, when I got home, she was yelling and asking where I was (when she knew). She then accused me of being homosexual with my friend. How many men have to deal with that coming out of their WIFE'S mouth? She wonders why after apologizing, I cannot just snap back like nothing happened and be happy with her or want to be around her, talk to her, etc. Recently, the worst has happened, I find myself getting just as angry as her and throwing all sorts of curse words and saying things like, "I wish you would just disappear." But I mean it. I do not like starting to become what I loathe.

There have been other things said by her in the course of our marriage like, "I wish you were dead", "I wish I had never married you", "you are gay", "a-hole" and many others. One of my big problems is that when her yelling and name calling is over (and she has forgiven herself and forgotten, I find it most difficult to just let it go and make my anger subside. A great deal of her behaviors are designed to try and force a confrontation-- the old, try and stop me routine. Doing something she knows will upset me in front of me-- she is just begging for me to respond physically. (I NEVER HAVE!!)

I have tried to separate and divorce her twice since the first attempt, but I always feel sorry for her disposition, or she had said she would change. I only wish that I had the fortitude to follow through be the mean guy and say, no, I do not feel sorry for you and say, "I know you will not change enough for us to stay married." She asks me why do I want a divorce, I say that I love her? The reason is that I love myself more and cannot possibly endure any more without suffering certain mental damage. I hope I find the strength to say goodbye. Me too Keith.

Keith

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000

S1

Happy, happy holidays and salmon to all you Honey-cats. (Are they still counting Honey-cats' votes in Florida?;) Well, Amy says it all! Good, good to hear this stuff. Read Sartre for more existentialism. Keith- dump this gal unless she agrees to be hospitalized, long term. Dump, dump, and run like heck. Hooray for the lovely English lady who defeated cancer despite suffering abuse, thanks indeed to God, but God helps those who helps themselves. And, I'd like to take that furnace fuse and put it right up his....well, never mind. Perhaps you were cured for a reason. Heartfelt, lurking greetings to all, and especially Honey-doc and her litter. And many honey-hugs to you (doc)! 

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000

S1

Dear

Sounds awful and YOU ARE THE OK ONE. Do the right thing by getting out. Tell the police about the threat. Isn't it an illegal offence to threaten to kill someone in both the UK and US? My GOD why are you still near him . Get round the clock police protection if you can ... show the police this post, talk to a lawyer and the domestic violence unit. But for goodness sake the house is the least of your worries. God is going to be with you I am sure....I will be praying.

Crumbs, looking at the next few posts I don't know what to say and I was going to say some stuff concerning me and Jake...at least he isn't on the level of the abusers described here.  

I will put it down hoping for some help from the regulars though . They will know enough of the story to make sense.

In the hour we saw each other on Christmas day my daughter thawed.. enough to ring me on boxing day. I agreed to make her a work outfit she needs and she wanted me to let her cut her brothers hair and to do me a manicure. I was wary but pleased she was speaking.

This morning she hated me again...Jake rang her last night and said I had said that people had seen through her. (This is true: she has done some awful things to me and appears as very innocent. Professionals have classified her as emotionally disturbed).

I just feel so angry and hurt. Our relationship was so fragile anyway. What possible motivation other than malice could he have had to wreck it deliberately? It makes no sense and to me it seems to be an emotionally abusive thing to do to a child to tell her that.

He says I am the one who is disturbed and he and my daughter are o.k

Somehow I don't think so. I did end up shouting at him but at least I acknowledge my own misbehavior....He has never acknowledged his.

This one whatever some of the other things he did were is definitely passive aggressive and not o.k

I never want to see him again as I just wonder what else he has been saying to our daughter....

When I reported him to the domestic violence unit then he told both children and asked them to support him ( a 12 and 15 year old!) although they had no knowledge of why and now they both think I lied to get him into trouble.

If I am overreacting someone be straight with me as I am just so angry the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.

Dr Irene I am seeing the psych tomorrow and going to try and show her your email and some of the posts and ask her to pass them onto the family therapist. I just wish in England I could find a straight talking therapist like yourself. They just don't do that here.

Mostly I just feel so frustrated. Neither husband or daughter acknowledge their problems. (I don't mean I have none! Plenty of my own mistakes to own).

Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000

S1

Dr. Irene,

I'm visiting the site again and getting caught up after 2 months. I've read through the past 3 catboxes and especially liked the dialogues with Steve and Asha. If my ex had been willing to do that, I think our posts would have been very similar. I can see so many of my, his and our issues! It was helpful to see it as an outsider from all (3) sides. Even after the fact, this perspective is helpful in the healing process.

There were also a couple posts about forgiving the self. When I did my EMDR therapy, I found that was a big issue for me. I felt I was unforgivable because I had an abortion in my early 20's. I carried that guilt around, and looked for people to help punish me. In my therapy I asked God to forgive me. He said "I forgive you and love you. Now you have to forgive yourself". Forgiving myself was a huge hurdle, but necessary before I could truly love myself.

As I am learning to love myself, I find myself surrounded by people who treat me in a loving way. When I find myself in the presence of negativity, anger or disrespect, I am able to disengage (most of the time) and be ok with myself. It has made such a difference in my life and I am so grateful!

I still have days where the old thoughts try to invade my peace, but now I can work through it and come out ok on the other side.

This has been such a wonderful site, and I want to thank you again for your insight and strength.

Suzanne  And I want to thank you for including this site among the resources you used - to help yourself... Happy New Year Suzanne!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box Honeys and Trubble,

Lynn here and just a brief post (I hope). I haven't forgotten any of you and I do read the posts and hello to you new ones and I'm glad you are here.

I don't know if this is progress or not, but I've been busy. Too busy at times to post, which I think means too busy to bother or care about venting or maybe I got beyond that for now. I hope. Even the anger, and there is a lot of residual anger in these relationships, doesn't seem to be anymore. I've loved you all and needed and appreciated all of you for your support and input for months and I really do appreciate it. I'm not sure I would have made it through another day at times without my cat box friends. This is a blessing and helps so much because we are not alone (I used to think I was). Never FakeMommy.

Anyhow, I do care and I'm thinking of all of you, but when I don't post I think maybe it means I am getting on with my life. This I hope is progress and I'm sure I'll be back, but at this moment I have so much to do rather than dwell on past "things." Meow! Sounds OK to *Me*. When I first started becoming purrrfect, I remember thinking there was something missing cuz I wasn't worried. FakeMommy says that's cuz I was so used to worrying, it felt strange for stuff to be calm!

Dan and I are still together and things are better from my point of view. At least I'm feeling better about everything. Or feeling better about nothing, whatever the case may be.

Dr. Irene, is this what it's all about? Getting us on our own two feet again? And just "my" own two, not "our." If so. it's working for me right now. FakeMommy says you can only get on your own paws. They're the only four paws you have. Stuff will always happen around you. You have a choice: make a big deal out of it, or make the best. Of course, that's what I always, without exception do.

Christmas was nice. Dan did tell the kitties and puppies that Santa wouldn't be coming (he actually does fly over town with his sleigh and reindeer all lit up, with the help of a helicopter and a neighborhood rancher). It was snowing and he couldn't fly, but he should never have told the kids because they all started acting up. I wouldn't let him rain on my parade though and yesterday I ran into Santa in his everyday clothes doing some after Christmas shopping and he was buying a "self help" book. He told me he loves them! Amen. Meow! Purrs and catkisses since I take my own advice and I'm not mad at anybody! (Except... )

Happy New Year and I'll be back and I'm here doing well.

Love, Prayers and Happy Trails,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000

S1

Hi- I will call myself Marie. I have been studying this website for about a month. My marital counselor told me to become informed on verbal abuse, and so I have started. Thought it might help me clarify my thoughts to post--perhaps the feedback would be helpful. I have been married 4 1/2 year--we have two children. All along in our relationship their have been sporadic blown up arguments. I attributed much of the earlier arguments to me being too sensitive and proud--b/c that is what my husband, B. would tell me. Our big arguments are always over some way that I hurt his feelings--and his immediate reaction is anger and withdrawal. Unless I immediately apologize for the way I said something--which I will admit may not always be nice but never involved yelling, belittling, or cussing, he would disengage from the family. If we had prior commitments, or I was sick, you name it--he was no longer helping. If I confronted him at all, he would begin cussing. Early on in our relationship I would take this very personally--he would tell me how inadequate I was and how I should be doing a better job at housework and requiring less of him b/c I didn't work. (At the time we had 1 year old twins--and he worked 24 hour shifts. As a result I would fight fire with fire, criticize him, cuss at him. This would only make him violent. By the end of the fight I was convinced that if I had been more attentive to his needs the whole thing would not have happened. He has never apologized for anything he has said, done, not done. They are all a result of my actions. To jump to where we are today. I have compensated by working outside of the home 3 days a week and being solely responsible for running the kids to and from childcare which makes for 10 hour days. In addition I am responsible for 90 % of the household and almost all decision making no matter how much I ask for his help. When he gets his feeling hurt b/c I disapprove of something he has/has not done I simply say--I can understand how me getting frustrated would upset you, but I didn't find you helpful. This falls short of his desired "I was wrong to get frustrated and upset you I am sorry." Over this exact argument, he would not go to Thanksgiving, would not help out, would not speak to me. And again I have become worthless and bad at everything I do. He wants to leave me and take the kids b/c even though he has never been responsible for our children, "it can't be hard if I do it". I am so exhausted by all of this and we have been seeing a counselor who after seeing me thought he was abusive and after seeing him, can't figure out what is going on. He says we have to work on basic communication. My husband last told me he wishes that I would put a knife in my heart and kill myself. Two weeks later he is hurt that I didn't but him a xmas present when I told him that with counseling being so expensive all I wanted was counseling. Well, I have rambled on and probably not made much sense. I just really hope that our counselor can help me to understand and perhaps see the ways that I may be contributing to this mess. I truly want to stay married, however, I am hurting and confused. Thanks for listening/reading.

Marie

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

DEC 28 00

Sometimes when I'm lying late at night

I wonder what your going and if your alright

hoping your smiling where ever you are

but secretly wishing it wasn't to far

I wonder what we'll be doing a year from now

I wonder if we'll meet finally somehow

I hope life is good to you and not very sad

I hope you don't forget me and what we once shared and had

but time has come to spread your wings and fly afar

for you should be a shining star

glowing as long and as bright as can be

not looking at dimly lit star

you can't even see       RM   Thank you RM!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

This is from "Until Today" by Iyanla Vanzant. It touched me and I hope you like it too! Suzanne  Thanks Suzanne.

"The voice of love is always calling out to you. It is whispering gently into your heart, reminding you, "I am here for you! I love you just as you are!" Love offers you everything you need and desire. Love wants to give those things and more because love recognizes the jewel that you are. Do you recognize the jewel that love is and offers?

Love wants to hold you, comfort and lift you. Love knows you! It knows what you have to offer life. More important, you don't have to work to get love. The only work love requires from you is the work you must do on yourself. Work on your heart, your mind, your behavior, your false notions about love that have caused you pain, confusion and despair you believe have something to do with love. While you are working on yourself, love wants to keep you aware! Keep your eyes open because there are many things masquerading as love that are not at all loving.

Love will not leave you, nor will it ever dishonor you. Love will not rush you. Love will not come to take anything from you. Love gives to you! Love protects you! Love is the voice of God whispering to you from within yourself. The voice of love tells you that God loves you right now. No matter where you are or what you have done. The voice of love is asking you to tell love where you hurt, tell love why you hurt, tell love how you got hurt. Love wants you to know that it doesn't matter who hurt you, why they hurt you or how long you have been hurting. Love wants you to know that just a little bit of God will heal you!

Until today, you may not have realized that the voice of love is God's voice calling out to you. You may have been so busy trying to find love that you were not able to hear it's call. Just for today, listen closely for the voice of love. Be diligent in remembering that love is always available to care for you and heal whatever is ailing you."

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Asha here.

Suzanne, I'm glad you posted that the dialogue between Steve and I has been helpful to you. It seems I gravitate here every time there is a little problem, and wondered if others were tired of hearing every minute detail of my life. :)

Anyways, the last few little problems have built up again, and so here I am.

They seemed so small, I wondered if they would work themselves out, but they seem to have gotten worse.

Steve and I had a discussion last night, and he seems to feel that I'm not treating him well. The problem is I just don't feel close, because of these "little" incidents. I don't feel hostile towards him, but I don't feel loving either. Ok, you  haven't been treating him as well as you do when you feel better about him.

Steve was over a few nights and we had a really nice time. I enjoyed his company. Then one night I woke up and he wasn't there. He spent the night downstairs because he couldn't sleep. I knew it wasn't about me, and didn't make an issue about it. The next time he stayed over, I was on the computer when he went to bed (writing to the Catbox probably). I had a lot I wanted to do and so I did it. Steve came downstairs after awhile and said he felt like going home. I said that I understood and he did go home. The next night he came over, I was on the computer again when he went to bed. I had some last minute Xmas projects and was looking for pic's and patterns on the net (being that it was Xmas, there was an deadline for this). He came downstairs awhile later, got dressed and said he was going home. This time, it felt different to me - like punishment for me not going to bed. I didn't feel good about it and said so. I felt as if I put myself and my projects first, instead of putting him first, and there was a consequence. Did you ask him what his expectations of you were when he stayed over? (Maybe you guys need to talk about it being OK for each to do what each wants/has to do without the other feeling left out...)

We weren't able to "get to the bottom" of it. And so I started feeling cool towards him. Then on Friday I mentioned that it would be nice if we did something relaxing together on Sat night. We were leaving Sunday morning (Xmas Eve) to my parents place and I just thought it would be a nice prelude. It was an idea, a very loose plan. On Saturday Steve received a call from a friend and made plans to meet him late afternoon. They had also been planning to get together, but hadn't found a time that worked. I asked Steve how long he planned to visit, and whether it would take up his evening as well, and Steve seemed to feel it would.

What bothered me was that Steve didn't even think about our loose plan before agreeing to meet his friend. I felt that once again I had not been considered. A simple "let me check with Asha because she mentioned doing something this evening" would have gone miles for me. But it didn't happen. Hmmm. Sounds like Steve was mad with you. I mentioned my concern about this to Steve and he seemed to feel I didn't want him to see his friend or something. This isn't true at all. Since the friend was coming late afternoon, I mentioned the idea about him spending a few hours with the friend and then them coming over here. No go. Steve said he wanted to see the friend alone. The problem with all of this was not the actual seeing of the friend, nor Steve's desire to see him one on one, but the way it was discussed with me. I was 'told' instead of talked to, or that's how it felt to me. I guess because Xmas is special to me it made even more of a difference. OK, so Steve had to shut you out, as he felt he was shut out by you. It's sad that he apparently feels this way. But, don't expect to get too far by being reasonable. Either you accept that you will be "punished" from time to time, and pull away from him without taking his stuff personally, or get out of his life. This is about Steve, not you. All you can do is not let your own anger towards him get in the way of your relationship (more below).

Anyway, it has built up, and we discussed this stuff last night and it went around in circles. Steve seems to feel that I was guilting him for seeing his friend instead of spending time with me, which is *so* frustrating to me because that's not at *all* what it's about to me. To me it's about having my feelings considered. Look at his timing and the sequence of events. This is retaliation methinks. He mentioned that he thought I was "making a point" to him by not going to bed when he did which is part of the reason he went home. I wasn't making a point, I was putting my needs over his. Yes. You know that; I know that, but Steve knows what a giving/loving woman you are and how you go out of your way for others. Right or wrong, that Asha is who he is comparing Asha-on-the-computer with. He has to be thinking something like, "If (her mom / some important person) were here, she would not be computing. I guess I'm not too important." This is of course irrational because it is good to be comfortable enough with your mate that you can relax the caretaking and let your hair down - and do your thing. So, assuming I am not too far off base, Steve needs to fix the insecurity inside himself. But - and this is  your anger stuff I referred to earlier - knowing how sensitive he is to "rejection" stuff, did you warn him ahead of time that you had stuff to do?   

I don't want Steve to have to "check in" with me for every little detail of his life, but if we've made a plan, or even thought about making a plan, I don't like it when he decides unanimously that the plan won't be carried through. I don't think I'm asking for too much. He is asking you to be caring all the time. You humanly can't. He retaliates. You ask him not to retaliate while engaging in retaliation yourself.  

Anyway it's a problem for me.

Steve did come with me to visit my family for a couple of days - it was the first time we spent Xmas together. This was really nice. I know Steve is working on himself, and I think it's wonderful. However the good things that happen don't wipe out the bad ones until they specifically get dealt with. When they don't I feel distant. OK. Rome was not built overnight.

Hope all of you had a nice Xmas.

I will read thru the other posts later, when I have some more time.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Dear Sisters: I really need to write this all out, found your website, been reading it for the past week, and thought to myself "it is time." A few things I'm grateful about: 1) I did not marry or live with this man. 2) I've read Patricia Evans' books, both of them (first book; second book) since last spring, every night before I go to bed for "validation" i.e.. "its real; its abuse; I'm not over-reacting to his behavior". 3) I finally got the nerve to move on once I knew it was abuse. 4) I do not intend on going back to him, no matter what. 5) I am no longer in love; though I was very addicted to this relationship; and he dumped me many, many times, this last time "took". 6) He knew from the first day I went to a woman support group about the abuse that I was getting help. Guess what? The abuse got worse!

Our relationship began with "a bang" 18 months ago. We had terrific chemistry. He is 52, I am 45. Both professional - he a psychologist, I'm an legislative analyst. Both come from affluent backgrounds. The sex, passion, chemistry - everything - was great. When I met "Ron", I was recently divorced from a man, after a 15 year marriage, who was also an abuser - but in a different way - he was the type who threw things when he got mad, (not at me) but he had anger inside that would come out from time to time, though never towards me or the kids. It was an unhappy marriage for me and I was glad it was over.

After being with Ron for 1 month, he started saying things about my weight and the line on my face. Then he had an ex-girlfriend always calling him (who was 26 and an ex-druggie). Great crowd, eh? I broke up with him telling him that I didn't like the comments, however, he started to cry, told me that "I was the one" and that the ex-girlfriend was "nothing" but a friend who was having a hard time letting go. One night when she did call though, I asked him again about their status, and he sarcastically said, "what, you want me to $##%% her to get her out of my system?" I broke it off with him again, but he reeled me back in. You have to realize I really had not "felt" like this about any man in my life. He had me "locked in for life." The chemistry between us was hot! Another month or two went by and his comments began getting meaner and meaner. Just little things here and there, but it felt like "a stun gun". Did he really say what I thought? We kept breaking up and getting back together, and the verbal assaults were getting worse and worse, "crazymaking." It started to happen every time we were together. The taunting "don't get too comfortable with me, because I can yank the rug from under you," he'd say. He would turn things around and I would feel like the villain, and HE the victim. He would lead me to believe that MY behavior was unacceptable because I was in pain over the things he would say. He said he wanted me strong, secure, etc. How could I feel secure with him when he would intentionally provoke me saying things to me like, "guess who just left my house and wanted sex?" It was taunting behavior towards me to keep me off balance. The roller coaster ride was horrible. Again though, he had me "hooked in" and he knew it. He even got an attorney "Joe" at one point to call me and tell me to leave him alone, because I was finding out information about Ron and other women through his friends! (Ron represented himself as monogamous to me) Later I discovered that this attorney was a personal friend of his, and he asked me out for a date!! I never went out with him, but we got to be friends on the phone, who told me that this Ron was psycho. Then my mom last February was diagnosed with colon cancer. It was a shock to my whole family. I was devastated because she truly is my best friend. One night when Ron and I were on the phone talking, I shared with him my anxiety of losing my mom, and he said to me, "well, at least you have your girlfriends, unless they dump you too, then you'll always have your TV set." Like I said, after 7 months into the relationship, this is how this guy was treating me. However, I was STILL IN LOVE WITH HIM. Where was my brain?????? I then went out and bought books, went into therapy, went to a local support group which specializes in domestic abuse, and got some insight. I started behaving differently. When he would get into the crazymaking verbal talk, I would make him accountable. Then his "weirdness" escalated and then he would start breaking up with me. It felt like he didn't want the relationship anymore because he got "found out", and could not accept the fact that he was responsible for any of this. He would blame me for everything. I did have sense to know it was not my fault that we were always at odds, but he sure tried to put it all on me!!! It would make me crazy because I would be doing nothing wrong and then he would "stun me" again. It got to be a vicious cycle. We would make up. No apologies, nothing. His actions towards me when we would make up were loving, and then a few hours or days later, it would regress to the same weird stuff. Around Thanksgiving, something finally "snapped in me". I had had enough. The weird part was that he knew I was in therapy, he could feel me "pulling away", he sensed I wasn't the same, I got more "gutsy" towards him - when he acted mean, I wouldn't react anymore - I just started to distance myself - FINALLY - and I stopped calling and making myself available. He was then calling me more, checking up on me, etc. and I simply told him "look, I'm sick of your behavior." He acted like a little boy. I let him reel me in one last time.....however, I was different. I was distant. I was not emotionally available. He knew I was not as interested in sex, "it was not fun or hot anymore". Especially for me. I was done with him. I didn't even look at him the same. It donned on me that he never was emotionally available throughout the entire relationship. He was a commitment phobic and a misogynist. He was every woman's nightmare. However, I stayed with him until the "bitter end" because I wanted to show how "stong" I was. It was my ego kicking in, I think, because my self-esteem was coming back!! Then, on Dec. 15, he finally told me "he wanted to finally end the relationship because he had never done 2 holidays in a row with the same woman". He was "anxious" about the relationship because it was going on "too long" and he had never been with ANYONE longer than he had been with me. I asked him "why now when my mom was dying of cancer? because you said you'd be there for me" and its the "week before Christmas" could you do this? He couldn't explain it other than his anxiety. He reassured me that there was no other woman in the picture. Ha! He did tell me that the real reason why he verbally abused me was because he didn't want me to "get my expectations up" about him or "expect too much" from the relationship. Anyway, I have to say, I have not called him - I have no desire to - and emotionally, I AM FINALLY FREE. I have never been so mistreated by anyone like this. And this will never happen again to me. I am moving into a new place and I am not giving him my new phone number. If he calls me, I am going to hang up in his ear!! If he comes to my new place, I will get a restraining order!! I want nothing more to do with him. FINALLY!!!!!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

I remember the times when my bf and I would go in circles like that, where everything that was said and done was offensive to the other. Every detail and every event was a major ordeal - what a roller coaster! When we weren't battling or feeling cool towards one another, we had some fun times together.

The fun times made it harder to leave, and the exhaustion from the battles made it harder to get up and out. In the last year, it was only a matter of time before we split - way too much water under the bridge. It would have taken an enormous effort on both our parts to change old patterns of interaction and communication. Then I wonder if we could have ever trusted fully and let our defenses down.

Since I left, a lot of people have told me awful stuff they knew about him. In my case, he had such deep and severe problems he wouldn't face, that it never would have worked. So I am grateful to be free and happy again.

Take care, Suzanne

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Keith

If "dump and run" sounds harsh to you, I would suggest that you detach, take care of yourself (this will likely mean getting out of your current living situation), and make conscious choices. Same thing basically, just rephrased.

Realize that tolerating this kind of abuse is enabling it, and that your wife will be more likely to seek solutions once you stop putting up with her misbehavior. No amount of money or material things can be worth living that way.

Also, look into what's led *you* into this relationship. Examine your own boundaries (or more likely, lack of them) to see how you ended up in a situation like this one. Usually there are small signs along the way, that many of us ignore. Were there any signs you ignored, so you know for future to take them seriously?

If you'd like to go one step further, and offer her some sincere help, if she asks for it, direct her to local abuse resources, if there are any, and to websites like this one, or research some appropriate book titles, so she can learn more about what is causing her so much pain in her life. (I've just started reading the Feeling Good Handbook, and so far I think it's excellent, but check Dr. I's booklist for one that may be more appropriate.) Do this only if she asks, any other "help" becomes control otherwise. But first of all look after you, and remove yourself from the abuse.

I really feel that men and women like her are the ones carrying the most pain, and because they are the most painful to be around, they are the ones that end up alone and lonely. Very sad.

However, staying with her because you feel sorry for her won't help. I don't think it's possible to live with someone in this state (depending on how frequently it occurs) without the negativity having impact on you. You can be compassionate towards her, without forgoing your own life for her. #1 don't put up with her junk, and take care of you. Also, it helps to decide specifically what you want and don't want in a relationship. Writing it down even helps. If she ever reaches "recovery" mode you can give these to her as guidelines.

Good luck Keith.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Marie - hang in there. A lot of what I said to Keith may also apply to you.

Sister - (Be careful, there are brothers here too. :) )

It's scary when you hear of psychologists who are abusive. Which shows that it pays to do some preliminary research about the counseling you choose.

Suzanne - Thank you for telling your story. Carrying guilt around never achieves anything. Guilt is so unproductive. It sounds like you are dealing with it now though. "The only mistake, is the one from which you learn nothing." (I think I've said that a few million times here, but I like it.)

Welcome to all the newcomers and hi to the regular "gang".

take care everyone.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Steve here. Yippeee! He's back!

Hi all.

Irene said (to Asha): "OK, so Steve had to shut you out, as he felt he was shut out by you. It's sad that he apparently feels this way. But, don't expect to get too far by being reasonable. Either you accept that you will be "punished" from time to time, and pull away from him without taking his stuff personally, or get out of his life."

This is wrong Irene. You have made a very incorrect assumption. I'm not doing the tit-for-tat. That is someone else's modus operandis. OK, correct me. When you're not posting, I have to intuit your thoughts. There is bound to be error.

I've been thinking about when you told Asha that I couldn't see my anger because anger is normal for me. I am realizing that this applies much more to Asha than to me. That may be, but, as I keep telling Jay, you have to stop looking outside and look inside you!  Unfortunately you do not see this, or if you do, you NEVER call her on it. What are you talking about? I made a specific reference to Asha to check her own stuff out: "But - and this is  your anger stuff I referred to earlier - knowing how sensitive he is to "rejection" stuff, did you warn him ahead of time that you had stuff to do?"    This contributes to the miscommunication because Asha cannot see how much her anger controls her life.

Pretty much your entire response to Asha's last post about the "plans" (which never ever were plans), is incorrect, based on false assumptions - because Asha wasn't clear - again. Miscommunication? Could be. Passive aggressive? Could be. That's ok, you've been wrong before. Maybe you can think about it again. 

I've realized something else. Because you and Asha are in direct contact via email, things are being discussed which I am entirely unaware of. It's no small wonder you are mis-diagnosing at times. There is nothing I say to her that I wouldn't say to you. It's the same ol' same ol': If he's acting yukky towards you, pull back, don't personalize and don't react.

I don't feel like I can participate anymore when I have no idea what "reality" you are getting from Asha, and what you are saying privately to Asha. There's a certain amount of feeling "left out of the loop". Understood and you are correct. That's why I encourage you to participate. I can't do it otherwise...

I will continue to work on me in other ways. I don't think you can help me anymore due to the above circumstance. Well...

If you think about it, you'll probably understand what I mean. I agree 100%. Please correct me by telling me what was going on for you when I mistakenly assumed tit for tat in the exchange you pointed out early in this post.

Take care all. I am sentimental about all those who helped me out. You too Dan. I have nothing but warm feeling toward both you and Lynn. And please stop bailing out when the going gets tough. I am expressly inviting you to take your power! OK?

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Dr I:

<<Did you ask him what his expectations of you were when he stayed over? (Maybe you guys need to talk about it being OK for each to do what each wants/has to do without the other feeling left out...)>>

Good point. No I didn't. I think I felt comfortable, and Steve had been spending a lot of time here, and since he used to stay up all hours working on the computer when I went to bed, I didn't think it would be a big deal to him.

<<did you warn him ahead of time that you had stuff to do?>>

No I didn't. Although the week before I had mentioned that he was welcome to come over, but I would be busy doing Xmas projects, and he was perfectly okay with that at that time. In fact, I remember discussing that it felt nice for us not to have to "entertain" each other, and he had agreed at the time.

<<You ask him not to retaliate while engaging in retaliation yourself.>>

This one I'm confused about. I don't feel that I'm retaliating, but I do withdraw, Do you act it out by just shutting yourself away, or do you tell him you are feeling upset and need to time out? and I do feel angry at times. OK. It's occurred to me that he interprets my putting myself first as "punishment" and therefore feels he's justified in doing the same thing to me. Close, but... If I've got this wrong, please explain. Yes, you are just doing what you need to do, no problem there. And Steve is doing what Steve is doing. Not your problem. But you know Steve well. Knowing how sensitive he is, it is a sin of omission on your part not to talk to him ahead of time about your plans for the evening. This is passive-aggressive in that it is a sin of omission. Had your visitor been someone you felt less comfortable with, knowing their sensitivity, you would likely have taken that sensitivity into account. Is this clear? (Knowing how sensitive he is, how else would you expect him to interpret it?) 

Now you are probably thinking, but that's pretty much what I had done before, when all I did was do for him first. Not quite. You are not doing anything for him. If you are taking time for yourself, letting him know and agree/disagree to is is not for him, though it is. It is really for you. Knowing how he is, why would you want to irritate him?

When I'm upset with him, I just don't desire closeness. I don't consciously retaliate, though I know my feelings show through. It's not conscious. Just something to pay attention to since it gets in your way. If you weren't upset with him, it is more likely that you would have let him know you had work - thus giving him the opportunity to decide whether or not to spend the night. Especially since it's pretty clear he is more comfortable at his own place and stays at your place to be with you. Again, this does not make Steve right or wrong, it is just a matter of consideration on your end - since consideration is one of your strengths.

I don't want to act on them, and I don't want to bury them. Also, I do know it's his stuff. Sometimes I get discouraged though and would like more understanding from him, though I don't expect it. I don't want to pressure him because I know that doesn't help, but I don't know if I can be altogether neutral towards everything he does, unless we remain just friends. My guess is that this type of stuff is what Steve is referring to when he refers to your anger. It is one thing to be mad with him for something and to let him know you are mad because such and such thing he did felt however it felt. But, when you take that anger and displace it onto another, independent communication by withdrawing / not communicating information you would ordinarily communicate to a person you were not angry with, you've taken it a step further: you are acting out.

I was thinking today that negatively empowered people and disempowered people probably get together because they do have something in common - the negatively empowered person puts him/herself first, and the disempowered puts the other first as well. Maybe that's why it's hard for negatively empowered people to understand that it's okay for the other to put themselves first, while they themselves are learning to put the other first. I think there is a simpler way to explain this, but that's what comes to mind. Yes. The implicit "deal" you and Steve made was to put Steve first. Now you are trying to put yourself first, which is healthy for both of you. But, you are not doing it very clearly because displaced anger is getting acted out as you attempt to "assert yourSelf" so to speak. Steve does not strike me as unwilling to let you be first. I think he is reacting to the (unconsciously angry) way you do it. Steve: Please give feedback.

<<Either you accept that you will be "punished" from time to time, and pull away from him without taking his stuff personally, or get out of his life.>>

This is probably true. It all depends on the level and amount of "punishing" which is hard for me to predict for the future. I do take full responsibility for my choices, though I will probably make mistakes. I also don't think I can be as supportive or encouraging of Steve as I once was, because I don't have the energy right now. You are also mad with him. I need to put more into myself. Yes, but you are blaming him for not having put more into yourself until now. Steve didn't "make" you focus on him. You chose to do that. Meanwhile, he's (unconsciously) getting "blamed" for your past inability to put yourSelf first! By the way, most of the "blame" if you will here belongs to your parents, not Steve. You already knew how to put yourself last when you met him. This probably makes it more difficult for him to progress, if he himself is still beating himself up over things, and he thinks that I am too But it's not that he thinks it, you are! This is subtle stuff Asha. I think, on a logical level, I understand that his intentions aren't bad, but the emotional part is harder for me to turn on and off at will. Yes, but you are not being asked to turn off your emotional part. You are being asked to pay attention to it - so you can take the reins and run your life rather than let your anger run you!

I wasn't going to post this last bit, but I think I will. Steve picked up his kids today, and since we didn't see them before Xmas, I had some presents to give them today and we will still be having a turkey dinner tomorrow. Steve spent long hours putting together a 45 minute video montage of the kids, the pets, me and him as a present for them. I was really looking forward to seeing it with them. I think this was a miscommunication, but I was sure that he would "debut" the video to all of us together (I had told him I wanted to wait to see it with the kids). He had made an extra copy to give to his ex, which I thought was nice. He brought it with him when he went to pick up the kids. As it turned out, they all watched it together without me. When they got here and I asked when we would all see it, and Steve told me this, I felt like crying. I realize now that my expectations about the video were totally different than his. Again, miscommunication or passive aggressive anger? Could be either. You do this stuff unwittingly to each other all the time, so I have to assume it's about anger.  I had thought we would view it together as a family. Steve said that the kids could watch it again, but it doesn't seem at all the same to me. I don't know if I'm being silly about this. I think it's just a lot of build up YES as well as build up from all the times you felt left out in your life in general... from being left out in the initial Xmas plans with the kids, the thing with Steve's friend Saturday night, and then this. I just feel like so many opportunities to build family closeness have been thrown away and I'm disappointed about it. Again, I'm feeling very emotional about this and maybe it's out of whack. Just pay attention Asha. Pay attention to your feelings. Try not to react to them, but instead to notice them. There is a message there.

That's it for tonight.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

jay here and a bit calmer.

Reading the posts I keep thinking and I think I have things to worry about!

Guess I do but so much suffering here and on the message boards. At least I am not being hit (generally), stalked, in fear of all my loved ones being hurt.

So "Jake" taking our son off to his parents for the new year on a freezing cold day when they are saying don't drive and the trains are dodgy and he will have a train and car journey 3 minimum hours long without a coat (both refused to take it) pales in comparison.

Rang a straight talking friend who talked straight and pointed out that I already had bought the ticket for the hospital car park for the accident or hypothermia I was sure the Human Kat Kid will have/suffer from!

Major reactions yet again from me. When do I get to be a grown up again?

Friend should be another Dr Irene.... take care of your Self. You are doing just what Jake is wanting you to. He does it to wind you up....(what harm would there have been in taking the coat.)  

The stupid thing is the human KatKid doesn't ever wear a coat. Just one of those adolescent things. He will when he decides it is fashionable. Giggle.

So is this one another trifle????

Upsetting things between me and my daughter. (Dr Irene I noticed the absence of blue pencil on that post I take it that one it wasn't a trifle.) That I can see as serious stuff and worth being concerned about. Jay, I'm sorry, truth is, I don't read everything - no time. I have to get hired to do that.  And, frankly, that takes so much time, I don't know that I will continue it much longer. Informational stuff I catch, I generally answer.

Inside is no anger any more: just a void. Is this part of a process.

At least I have four days alone to think and work it out!

Daughter wants me to ring her and this time Jake will know nothing at all. He won't be able to cause any upset.

I did talk to the therapist. Got told you are not going to find a therapist with Dr Irene's approach in this hospital. Which is not a problem. You'll get used to your therapist's approach after a bit. Give it a chance! Also, this is not therapy. I really don't know what it is. Refused to give me psychotherapy. Realised later that family therapy whether I like the therapist or not is the only way forward. Psych did agree I should tell the therapist how I feel......I think they are saying we can't change what is outside of you. Which is obvious and what I have to stop fighting. At least they acknowledged I was the victim. That felt like a relief. The first time anyone had agreed with that.

But I can't keep destroying myself by being a victim. I have somehow to learn not to be.

have to stop destroying myself. Have to stop letting them destroy me.

But you can't just magically wave depression away. I do do all the right things. Except listen....Keep getting picked up on interrupting!!!

Why can't I do the obvious? Just not react.

At least I would if I knew what to do about the loss of all internal monitors. I don't see my own reactions coming. Literally seem to come to in the middle of the reaction. Then I can get out of it but I am the fool by then.....Epileptics have an aura sometimes. I wish I could have one for anger. There is something internal going on I can't identify. I used to be able to be calm. Did have a temper but I could control it.

I guess a lot of the time I just think it out in words when I post.

Believe it or not the only "therapy the psych was interested in was me posting here, She didn't think anything else will help. I tried to find a codependency support group here where I live. No such thing.. The old Jay would have started one. The person I used to be was so pro active. Perhaps I fight too much that it is all going to take a very long time to heal.

Makes you think what years of subtle abuse can do to a confident person.

Guess I have four free days to sort me out. Have to stop twisting God's arm and do it myself......

Some days I ramble on so.....Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Give freedom to thoughts but don't let 'em talk to strangers.

Is this the Human KatKid in a philosophical moment or has he got the words from a song?

I am sure it must mean something. It appears when I start the computer up..........

he does come out with stuff like this from time to time.....

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Sorry pressed submit too soon. If only I could be as stable and healthy as my own kid! Yesterday he and Jake had a snowball fight . I guess most of us in this situation expect to be hit by a snowball. Human KatKid threw a snowball which hit Jake in the ??? wrong place.

describing Jakes's reaction. Human KatKid was very clear. This was not his problem but Jake's. Not even upset. Just thought Jake should deal with it as his problem and it wasn't something for Human KatKid to worry over.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Dear HoneyDoc and the rest of the New Year Honeys,

First, thank you HoneyDoc for the explanation on validation and manipulation in the Yukky Comment Board - I finally understand it; however, I have a lot of work to do on mySelf in order to Not need validation. You're welcome HoneyHon. It's funny though - I have a great deal of self-esteem/self-confidence professionally and socially but something happened to the development of my self-esteem with close interpersonal relationship issues. I continue to explore this issue with reading on codependency, a 12 step support group and individual counseling - this appears to be a family of origin issue and based on my family of origin, that makes a lot of sense. :)

Second, I have a question about the exchange between Steve and Asha and HoneyDoc's advice to them. I saw myself in Asha's reactions to Steve - the passive-aggressive stuff or at least not being sensitive to his known sensitivity as a way of acting out anger. My question is whether this is important for them because they continue to work things out between themselves and Steve is really making an effort on himself or whether this stuff is important to Asha just for Asha's sake? Gosh, just posing the question, I think I know the answer but...

In my circumstances, my husband turned out to be a FakeSteve. But we are still living together while I'm working on mySelf; however, I think I pull "an Asha" a lot with my husband especially because I know he is not working on himSelf, he is drinking heavily (My 12 step program is Al-anon), and he is still seething with anger/hostility although he is not continuously raging anymore.

So is it enough that I should mentally catch myself when I pull these "Ashas" with him? or is the goal to work out my inner anger so as not to take it out on him ever because even when we break up, I'll still need to work on the inner anger without focusing it outside of myself? Part of the reason I do it is to protect mySelf from further verbal abuse and, as already stated, I know that I am not trying to work on the relationship instead I'm just trying to work on my issues until I'm ready to leave.

Thanks, HoneyHon

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Jay,

I can't afford on-going codependency therapy so I use this site and another e-mail support group. Here is the url to join the other support group I belong to called Constructive Love:

http://www2.scescape.com/support//list.htm

I found wonderful support and insight there as well.

Suzanne Thanks!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Dr I:

<<Had your visitor been someone you felt less comfortable with, knowing their sensitivity, you would likely have taken that sensitivity into account. Is this clear?>>

I think I understand what you are saying. I really didn't feel any conscious anger when I was working at the computer when Steve had been over. Maybe the problem is that I'm awkward about how to "put myself first". I knew that I wasn't ready to go to bed, and I didn't think about what time I would be going to bed in advance, before Steve came over. I did know he wanted me to come to bed though, but I was looking for pic's for a Xmas project and felt in a time crunch. When he lived here he used to stay up on the computer until all hours after I went to bed and I never asked him not to, so maybe I felt he would understand. I didn't feel mad at him, I actually felt quite warm towards him at the time. The funny thing is that the first night he left, I felt okay about it because of how he approached me. He came down and said he had lots to do at home and would I mind if he went home - very considerate, and caring. The next night, there was none of that. He got dressed and put his jacket on and basically said goodbye. That's when I started to feel angry. It felt like the same old junk - like "punishment" for not going to bed when he wanted me to. OK. I understand. Perhaps he had expected that you would be more considerate of him given that he had explained so warmly how he felt the night before... 

<<But, when you take that anger and displace it onto another, independent communication by withdrawing / not communicating information you would ordinarily communicate to a person you were not angry with, you've taken it a step further: you are acting out.>>

I think it's more that I haven't figured out the difference between caring for Steve and "caretaking". The problem is that Steve often thinks I have hidden motives where there are none. For example I wasn't "making a point". I really just felt I wanted to stay up longer. He didn't have to go to bed at that time either, he could have stayed up with me. Did you tell him? If you don't, Steve is likely to fill in the blanks - with his own more painful agenda.

<<Now you are trying to put yourself first, which is healthy for both of you. But, you are not doing it very clearly because displaced anger is getting acted out as you attempt to "assert yourSelf" so to speak.>>

I think that that maybe it's more that it feels very 'freeing' to put myself first and I forget that Steve is sensitive in some areas. I think I need to treat Steve as you mentioned, as I would a guest. It's so funny... The one person we are most committed to and care about most - is the one that we esteem th