Comments for
Catbox 15
Material
posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be
considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care
provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene
Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may
be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes
provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution,
please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com
Back
to Catbox 14
OK Gang, PAGE 14 done. Steve & Asha, espec,
please go look see. Also, Lurking Lawyer, are you my favorite Lurking
Lawyer?
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 08, 2000
S1
Becky here,
(((Jay))) you have had a time of it! I'm glad you came through
alright!
Suzy, I don't attend college, I am an instructor at a community
college, also a librarian at a parochial school. I did go to college as
an adult, though, graduating in 1994. I think I've said before that your
husband and mine seem to hold similar attitudes. He also was very
offended when I told him that I would want what the law says I should
have if we divorced. He has tried from the beginning to arrange things
so I would get little or nothing, and I think he is dismayed to realize
that he may not know as much as he thinks he does about what the law
says. For example, he refused to add my name to the house because he
does not want to consult me if he ever decides to put the house up for
collateral for business purposes. he believes that the house is his
alone, even though we finished paying for it after we were married. (He
says he used "his" money to pay for it, so it's
"his.") My lawyer says that it is marital property.
My husband has a thing against women; he denies it, but others have
noticed it too. He uses that as an excuse to accuse me of using him, of
wanting to take him, etc. I used to think I had to convince him that he
is wrong. No more. I know who I am, I am not the things he says. I'm
plain sick of his insecurities!
Theressa, I understand your anger. The injustice of it all gets to me
too! I am often told also, that I've "never done anything."
Just try to remember that 1. he wants you to lose your temper; it makes
him look good in comparison, and 2. you want to be better than that, and
that's what's important. Strive to be the person you want to be, focus
on that and you'll find yourself engaging less and less. In other words,
your purpose will have changed. You'll no longer be wanting to get back
or win, you'll be wanting to be dignified and strong, a person with
inner calm. You'll be choosing integrity, and you'll feel so much better
about yourself! It takes time and practice; stick with it! remember that
you are undoing many years of habitual behavior and thinking.
I hope we all have a good weekend!
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Dear Doc and Trubble,
I found this site while looking for another (typical) and have spent
the past 3 hours reading about Lynn and Dan as well as the others'
stories. May I just say, good luck to all of you. It's crazy how love
can be a huge source of stress and pain for many, yet at the same time
it possesses some addictive quality that forces us to continue at all
costs.
In any case, I'm 26 and for the past 2 and a half years have been
single. In this time I've dated, but nothing serious has come of it. I
suppose I wasn't ready...
From the age of 15 I was constantly in a relationship... each lasted
from six months to three years, with maybe a month in between. When the
last one ended I vowed that I would stay single until I no longer feared
being alone. I also wanted to know myself, not in the way that
significant others defined me, but in the purest way... how I defined
myself. For so long I shifted and shaped myself to those around me...
suppressing the qualities that weren't compatible with that person, and
compromising my values and beliefs, if expressing them would rock the
boat. It got to a point where I didn't remember what was important to
me, I didn't know what I liked, or who I wanted to become as a person.
As you can imagine, this existence was very unsatisfying and very
unhealthy. The "true" Tara was buried so deep inside by this
time, that I had no clue how to find her and if I did how to
"revive" her. I mourned what I thought was her
"death" for a long time.
After a year, I somehow slowly chipped away all the thought processes
and stagnant behavior that kept "me" dormant for so long. I
was no longer a shadow of myself and the happy, independent little girl
I once was emerged. This was a beautiful time and the
"re-awakening" was evident to everyone around me. I was a
positive force to myself and to others. I became extremely picky in
those I chose to date and at the first sign of a "red flag"
I'd choose to maintain my self-respect and walk away than to stick
around... something I hadn't done before.
In any case, I feel that I know myself better than I ever have and
I'm grateful for the time I allowed myself to get to know me. Somewhere
in all this, however, I forgot or it seems as though I've
"unlearned" how to be in a relationship with someone. I tell
myself "don't settle!" so at the first sign of imperfection, I
run.
I can't imagine that I just haven't met "him" seeing as I
used to have no trouble jumping into a long term relationship... I'm
wondering if I'm now so afraid of "losing myself" again that I
won't let anyone get close enough to be in a relationship.
I guess I'm at some sort of crossroads where I've stopped the
co-dependent pattern of having someone just for having someone's sake
and I know what I want and what I don't want, but I haven't learned how
to apply it. My question to you is... what's the next step? I'm ready to
share myself with someone and to be shared with, I just don't know how
to do the healthy "give yourself without losing yourself"
thing.
Help? :) Tara
P.S. Thank you for listening.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Dear Suzy, I know what you mean about the paintbrush/. I went to some
art therapy sessions the week I was in hospital earlier this year. One
of the best things they did was I got there one day and said what I
really wanted was to throw paint representing all my anger onto a huge
piece of paper. I was given the biggest piece they could find and I
threw the paint. It was really therapeutic and the other people in the
room were in stitches by the end. It went from angry to playful. It was
the one therapy I wanted to continue when I left.
I do have brushes and paint around, although my real talent seems to
be in writing. An artist friend reckons we produce our best work after a
time of intense suffering.
For years this friend, who is a trained artist didn't paint. The
church we were both in said she had to 'die' to her old nature! Finally
she seems to have gone through a whole lot of Christian counseling and
started to paint again. She never had the word 'codependency' I think
until I told it to her. Things are not that advanced in England. But now
she is an absolute shining example of a recovered codependent. And she
has a job teaching art. She started to paint again and I think it was
really significant for her.
Funnily enough, when she first showed me her pictures I thought she
was not very talented. They were really mediocre. Now they are not and I
can se the talent was there. Now she is being described by the same
church but newer members as a woman of God!!!
It is kind of hopeful to realise that church recognized it's very
serious mistakes. Maybe they will eventually get the submission thing
right. Now it is a creative place.
On the Paxil/Seroxat front, I think from what I have now read, some
people have really bad and some very good reactions to it. I think the
danger is its unpredictability. Apparently, according to people close to
me I have acted weirdly at times while on it. It seems to have come and
gone. Obviously I post when rational!
I got two letters in the same envelope this morning. One saying I was
insane and the other they had decided I wasn't. No apology.
I will write suggesting practical changes. Maybe they could get a few
tips on patient care from the hospital in my home town.
Also, strangely, as he definitely IS passive aggressive, and has
problems I remembered this morning that although initially the
depression was linked to the way he was, his issue always was that I was
my own person! Also I felt warmer towards him as I remembered that it is
not his fault he is so strange! I used just to be thankful he didn't
drink and think of him as a gentle person with communication problems.
I have a feeling that Paxil/Seroxat may have nearly ruined all our
lives. Also I am now wondering did something really happen to scare my
daughter. Either she lied or it did. It has never added up that one day
she was telling me what a good mother I was and how I was always there
for her and the next making these allegations. I have NO memory of doing
anything to her. Maybe something did happen. I think this is definitely
going to need a miracle to sort out as it seems to have so many layers.
And thanks. I am very bad at remembering the breathing techniques.
Dr Irene I am dying to know what you think about Paxil!!!!! I
think all these drugs are miracles.
Also, Suzy, the advice from the consultant was that I should be OK
after about 14 days. I did try to withdraw slowly and that gave me just
as many problems. Fortunately, there is no history of heart disease in
the family. Having started I may as well carry on to the end! My doctor
wasn't against me withdrawing from it (gradually)! very much she seems
to respect my opinion on my own health.
I read on a chart in the bad hospital ward that there is a drug
called ? Mithril which doesn't have SSRI effects (I presume, serotonin
withdrawal symptoms. I have never been offered this. I also had a really
bad reaction to the drug Trazadone. Got all the symptoms to indicate
discontinuing it. went crazy when I did for a day or two but stopped
having fainting fits and feeling really dreadful.
Sorry everyone if these posts are long and boring. I actually have a
feeling that as the days go by I am getting very long winded!!
One other thing. I have N EVER thought where we live a cat was a good
idea. I am not by nature a cat lover. I have been planning on getting a
cat. In the cold rational light of day, it just seems provocative to get
a cat when my husband and I have always agreed it is a bad idea. Good
grief. some poor moggy would have probably ended up squashed on the main
road if I hadn't come to my senses.
Now I have to work through what the reality of everything is.
Dear Tara. If only I had recognized the roots of codependency in
myself as young a you. You sound like you have done so well. I guess in
the end, what all of us wanted and needed was someone who would give us
RESPECT and let us live out 'to thine own self be true.' I NEVER
understood what that meant until this year. I hope you find your own
true soul mate. Maybe the secret is to be happy whether or not you are
in a relationship or single.
They should teach about codependency in schools. I actually think
that it would be more helpful than drug education. My daughter started
glue sniffing directly as a result of this and I have seen enough of how
she reacts in relationships to realise the biggest disservice I have
done to her is to give her a role model of co dependency.
For the record. I have only found one English Dr Irene. Interestingly
she also operates email advice. No boards though. In some ways it would
be helpful to have some reflection of English law which seems very
different from American.
I used to think American's were really over the top with their
emphasis on therapy. Now I think they have a lot right! (Doubtful.
We do so much therapy cuz we need so much therapy! Giggle!) If it
hadn't been for all the American websites I wouldn't have got through
this far. And when my son helps me get them online (reliant on a 13 year
old!) I am definitely having a codependency page and I am going to put
as much English law on as I can.
So far, I have got dancing flowers on every page courtesy of my son.
I have to laugh. My son is playing basketball in a tournament at his
school from 8 till 8 today. He is the best player in the school so last
year he won the best player award, He is quite miffed as the school seem
to have realized he would win again and made it 'the best team'. I hope
they have put him on the weakest side! I must be one of the few parents
who hopes their son will not be made out to be the best. He has a
ridiculously high IQ. Is brilliant at art and music. His art teacher
says that he is A level standard at 13 (You take A levels around 17-18.
He can write really well and he is a computer wizard. Just to add to
that the girls like him....... Again, most of the recognition of his
needs is in America!!! (Here giftedness is frowned upon.) I believe
people need to learn to fail and I do wonder if my husband is giving me
a hard time as marriage is the one thing he has not managed to be
successful at!
He comes from a family who are all pretty gifted. The difficulties
with my daughter and family are the first real difficulty and they are
in denial about it. Just close their eyes. Perhaps it has become too
painful not to be successful?
meanwhile for us lesser mortals.........I think I would like to get
something done really well. love Jay
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Hi, B. here. I'm much behind on the posts. But I got to what Steve
said: "Thanks for your words of encouragement B. Now go twirl
around the house topless if you wish...oh my gosh, was I ever shocked
when I read that. I must be really sheltered. "
You are most welcome, and oh how you made me laugh!
I feel I need to explain a bit. Many times I'm on my way to the
bathroom, I start getting undressed, but too many things get in the way
so I'm going around half naked, usually topless. The same happens after
the shower. Now, imagine the situation: I am running around, juggling
the million things I have to do, H is (usually) sitting on the sofa in
front of the TV, not helping at all, but making comments such as:
"What's that, the neighbors can see you!", or "hey,
you're improperly dressed, get decent" (sheer play acting, this
one, and he knows I know that. He imitates certain movie characters) or
something like that.
I used to get really angry. I do everything around here, and he sits
there and makes controlling, abusive comments? What do I care about the
neighbors, What makes him think he can tell me how to dress, etc.
After a long time it suddenly hit me one day: I finally realized he
was only ACTING controlling and abusive, because he feels embarrassed
and weak to pay me certain compliments! He does not know how to say nice
things sometimes, so he acts naughty instead! Just like the boy who
loved me when we were 12 used to throw things at me (chalk, toads!!!) or
pull my hair because he was too embarrassed to tell me he loved me!
Then I also realized his "you have no sense of humor". He
knew he meant to pay me a compliment. He thought his way was funny. But
I go and get insulted and angry. He could not see his fear, and he could
not see his way was not funny, but controlling, demeaning and yucky.
When I realized all this, the next time he did that I simply
"translated" him to himself: I said OUT LOUD the compliment
that he MEANT but could not utter. Then I said, that this way was the
only way to get a positive reaction from me, and I explained that
telling me how much he likes me topless would get him my smiles, hugs
and love, whereas disguising his thoughts and displaying abuse instead -
would beget him only an angry, hurt wife, who doesn't want him!
Well, when he heard my "translation" and explanation he
laughed, and re-told me the compliment, this time properly. He was
smiling his smile of "gee, you make me do such embarrassing
things!", and seemed to enjoy his own courage, that he was telling
me "the truth" and by that giving me the power (the power to
know how much he cares about me, so scary). He enjoyed my positive
reaction, too. I could see him feeling: "hey, it was scary, but it
wasn't so bad!"
And he's doing it the right way more and more.
And I, at my end, am learning more and more to "translate"
him, so that instead of seeing the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of abuse, I see
what he really feels inside, and I see he is only trying to protect
himself from his fears, not trying to hurt me on purpose. So by
"translating" I can gently teach him how I want to be treated.
OK, now part of me wants to apologize for the long post, but the
other part thinks: maybe now that I explained all the parts and stages
of it, it would help someone here. Love, B.
P.S. read till the end of box 14. Theressa, you are doing so great!
Asha and Steve, you are working. Boy, what hard work... Becky, how are
you? And love to all the rest.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Dear B . Good to find your post. You have certainly put a new
perspective on things. I am so glad you got through to a good point with
your husband. It really made me think.
I have taken my husband's refusal to talk about divorce as a control
issue. He has said clearly this is not what he wants. What if it is just
too painful for him to discuss?
What if he just couldn't handle my depression?
What if he has been trying and I have been rejecting him?
What if he isn't as have been seeing him?
Maybe he also felt abused by me.
I am going to take a leaf out of your book and give him some credit.
I was going to file for divorce soon. I am going to wait. Now with
the Paxil thing I think I need to wait. It seems unfair to file for
divorce when we have only just started family therapy.
What if we have both misunderstood. We have been together since we
were really young.
He has been doing loads of housework and said this is "doing
what he can' to help. I have wanted hugs. But what if these were his
hugs?
What if it is not control but kindness. The best he can do.
What if he is locking his study door as he just can't cope. Maybe he
is crying behind there.
Some things he has done are abusive and I do think he has made me a
scapegoat. But weirdly I can't hate him any more.
I used to take him as I found him. We used to have some brilliant
times. I really did used to think of him as a gentle man with a problem
with shyness and communication.
He used to feel safe with me as I was equally shy. I stopped being
shy and am now quite gregarious.
What if that made him feel unsafe?
What if we can find some common ground again.
what if I stop and reassess his actions?
Thanks B. My first step is to go and put on clothes he likes and some
make up. He may not be ready for this but that is not the point.
Becky. One thing I am worried about is I don't want you not to take
Paxil if that is prescribed as people do have different experiences. I
guess the thing is to be aware that some people have bad effects from it
and some good.
My guess is, Dr Irene, please comment! that it affects everyone
differently as we all have a slightly different chemical make up. Try
it; give it a shot and if it is not working for you, stop it. Becky, are
you OK? I must have missed your posts...
In my case, please God let the nightmares end! Jay,
this is wonderful. I'm sure he's not as bad as he appears and he is
hurting inside. Steve, thank you for opening up to us and showing
everybody that an angry person is not an escapee from Hell..
Unfortunately, that's the rap guys (yes, especially men) get and
unfortunately, live up to the rep - because they haven't learned
the skills to disengage, manage the anger, begin to respect the Self.
Plus, they believe the bad rep!
Jay, this doesn't mean it will work. It means
you're doing everything in your power to give your marriage a
chance. Hopefully hubby will do his part. If he starts to, I hope he
joins us here. Then, you both would have to keep on doing your
parts until your parts are so over learned, they are automatic. If you
can't do your parts, it means you will feel like you wasted more time
with him. No promises, just hope.
Love to everyone, Jay.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Dear Dr Irene. I felt I have to comment on the comment you made to
Steve about not disempowering the guy as he CHOSE to commit suicide.
I don't think people always do. I didn't choose to try when I became
suicidal. It was a reaction to events too terrible to live with. I think
it can be like an illness. My friend Jim who died of a heart attack also
once said that he found this to be true for himself. I think you can
just be so distraught the feeling takes you over. The reason I knew I
wasn't suicidal the other day was about feeling in control of that kind
of feeling.
I ALWAYS thought before things happened to me there WAS a choice. I
don't as a result of my own experiences.
There is a choice to get help and live. But I don't think that
happens for everyone.
I would say there is an attention seeking non suicide attempt. The
cry for help. Sometimes that goes tragically wrong.
My religion, nature, beliefs all meant that I thought I would NEVER
act that way.
What I d know is that even despite recent experiences if I ever had
suicidal thoughts again I would get myself safe very quickly. The human
mind is an odd thing. love, Jay
None of what you are saying is wrong Jay. You
are correct; what in fact is choice and what is not in terms of our
biology is concerned is something we will probably never know. My point
was less about the man's free will than in the irony I saw in Steve's
siding with the man. While siding and support are acts civilized humans
do to help their downtrodden, the very act tends to disempower the
individual being helped. You are most likely to notice this tendency on
this site among the disempowered types who support and validate each
other - yet remain disempowered because they believe their status. And
here was Steve, jubilant in his new empowerment, asking to cut him a
break. I was struck by the irony and chuckled....
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Sorry, the seroxat (Paxil) withdrawal seems to result in messing up
my words and spelling. I noticed this as the post was going through.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000
S1
Dear all,
Sorry for the double entry. My computer was on the fritz and I didn't
think it went through. In any case, I wrote something for a friend of
mine a few days ago. She asked me to make her what we call a "Cheat
Sheet" so I sat down at the computer and put down everything that
I've learned about co-dependency and relationships and just being alive
in general. I hope some of you find it helpful:
1) Your worth cannot be determined by someone else. For one, no
person's affections are guaranteed and two, you know how wonderful you
are better than anyone else.
2) Don't force or expect someone to express themselves when you need
them to. When and if they're ready, they'll come to you. Be patient and
have faith that they will and be willing to listen. Sometimes when we
take the "me" out of the equation we see things much more
clearly.
3) Remember that people who say things that are meant to hurt you are
hurting inside themselves. Be gentle with them, even if only in your
thoughts. Negative feelings towards anyone equals a state of negativity
within yourself. Losing control and reacting out of pride or bruised
egos gives "them" the upper hand.
4) YOU decide how you're going to feel. The only person in control of
your mind is you, so make sure your inner dialogue is full of
pleasantries. Fake it till you make it! :) It does work.
5) Be accountable for your actions. If your instincts are telling you
not to do something, listen to them. If you choose to go along with
something you were hesitant about, remember that your body warned you if
things do go awry. This awareness should eliminate any surprises.
6) See yourself not better or worse than anyone else. We all come
from and strive on the same energy force of the universe. You're as good
as YOU CHOOSE to be not as good or bad as someone tells you that you
are.
7) Remember how addictive it is when you feel good about yourself
around someone else. Aim to make others feel good about themselves and
expect nothing in return. In the grand scheme of things, you'll
automatically feel good about yourself when you make someone else happy.
Furthermore, miss no opportunity to tell someone how wonderful you think
they are.
8) Don't expect to click with all people. You can't have all things
in common with all persons, but you can respect them and learn from your
differences.
9) Don't be discouraged if you feel you've regressed. We repeat
experiences when we still have something we need to learn from them.
Don't beat yourself up if you find yourself in a place you thought you'd
outgrown. Sometimes, we're "there" again as a gentle reminder
of which way not to go.
AND last but most certainly... not least...
10) Love yourself!!! It will open the floodgate of receiving love
from others.
I think all of you are great, I hope this helps... Thanks Trubble and
Doc for letting me share :)
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Dr I:
Thanks so much for your blue notes.
I haven’t had time to check the other posts, but I will do that
later. Just want to respond to Dr. Irene’s blue pencil.
Dr I said <<Steve had to have felt less important to you than
the dog. What little, tiny things could you have done to contribute to
his feelings? >>
I give the dog “treats” – something special I do from the
heart. I don’t do this for Steve nearly as often. Not because I
don’t care, but because I *used to* (I’m stressing this because
these things have been changing a lot) feel that whatever I did as a
“treat” for Steve, wasn’t quite right – if I rubbed his back,
he’d sometimes pull away, if I made coffee it often wouldn’t be the
right strength, he didn’t seem to like what I cooked etc etc. I
started to feel inadequate and stopped offering to do the little special
things as much. I just felt I didn’t know how to please him, so I
stopped trying so hard. Betcha you were making him
happy. He just didn't know how to catch the automatic reactions around
his frustration. You let his junk affect you (Yes, this stuff is less
satisfying than appreciative behaviors, but the lack of appreciation was
not about you.)
<<How come you didn't find a bed you both liked?>>
I guess we have a bit of a difference preference about soft vs. hard
mattresses. The old one I liked was soft, the new one is hard. It’s
not as big a deal to me as it is to Steve, but I guess it was another
“small sacrifice” that has added up to bigger resentments. Part
of the gloomy yukkies Steve carried around, I think.
<<When you "sacrifice" so much, you are going to get
really, really mad when you think he should be giving in. Like with the
kids, for example.>>
Yes this makes sense. I think I “sacrificed” feeling it was
“compromise” and that there would be compromises on his end too. I
know he feels there were. I know that he has paid dearly through his
kids and his tumultuous relationship with his X, for example. But I
still didn’t feel there was healthy, balanced mutuality coming from
his end, and that’s where the smaller compromises started to add up
into “sacrifice”. The point is when you
compromise and compromise, and you don't get big stuff you want back,
you get angry! Who wouldn't!
<<"Sacrifice" is a better word. By the way, he does
it too. Surprised?>>
yup! :)
I think he may have “sacrificed” in ways I didn’t want him to,
though. Compromised We’ve talked about
this a bit and he seemed to think I didn’t want him to socialize or
look at other women etc. I have *never* been that way! My X boyfriend,
while we were together, met X-girlfriends for coffee, socialized without
me (with my encouragement – we had time together too), at one time had
another female roommate, and I *never* felt the least bit threatened. I
think the closest I’ve felt to jealousy was when there was a real
possibility of Steve going back to his Ex. I never thought I would be in
that sort of situation. I felt like I should have stepped right out of
the situation and yet I didn’t. I cared for Steve a lot by this time
and because it seemed he cared for me too, the “Ex” stuff seemed
like some kind of surreal dream that I couldn’t seem to get a grasp
on. Anyway, I’m getting off track. Yes and no.
Because Steve could have used the ex thing to bring you in; to comfort
you and help you feel emotionally secure, but he didn't know how.
(Steve, don't get defensive here, OK? It's true; you're still
learning...)
<<Asha, do you see what you are doing? This is very subtle.
Tell me instead how mad you are at him! It's OK! I'm sure he acted
plenty creepy, but what Steve is referring to, and I'm glad he's
disengaged, is that in just reading the post, you are the good guy and
he is the bad guy. And, I know from your perspective, that's exactly how
it seems. And, that's fine. But, do you see your anger? >>
Yes, I do see the anger. Good. I’m not
denying the hurt and the anger that I felt (and still do feel at times,
sometimes more than others). I’m not sure if it seems like I want to
hurt him when I post my ill feelings. I don’t. It
comes across as a zinger, no different from the ones he's put forth that
have hurt you. Specifically, it seems like you want to let people know
that it's not your fault. I did all this good stuff, and this is what he
did back. He's the guilty one, not me. That's the implication.
Steve bristled at this stuff..
I’ve been trying to get at the source of the anger and why I
feel it. I hesitate sometimes before posting, because I know certain
things will appear hurtful to him. Don't work so
hard at protecting him Asha. You will resent him for it later. Instead,
speak your piece and hear him if he objects. I don’t want to
hurt him, but I want both he and I to understand what my feelings stem
from. In no way do I want to make him a “bad person”. I know he
isn’t. Just he maybe didn’t have the knowledge and tools to give
back what I had hoped he would want to give back. I
think Steve would give you anything...when he's not hot under the
collar. I feel like Steve is starting to get those tools
now. Yes.
I’m also dealing with fear – the fear of being off balance – my
roller coaster riding, where I swing up and down with Steve’s moods.
I’m really trying to change this. Good! You are
the only one who can fix this one. I think where the dog comes in
is that I don’t feel like making radical changes in my lifestyle, then
swinging back again. Don't. The dog was
representative of some of this backward and forward swinging. Yes.
It's not about the dog. It's about the up and down, back and forth. At
least that's what it's about for you. Dog outside, dog on
the bed with me when I’m alone, dog downstairs etc all depending on
whether Steve and I were together, and if we were getting along. I hate
this sort of constant change. I’ve decided lately that I want my
journey of growth to be less melodramatic and I don’t want to make
“sacrifices” that bring me out of balance. Good.
<<Asha: Do a little soul searching, please. In your frustration
with Steve, have you ever gotten back at him by using the pet to make
Steve feel less than? (I would be very surprised if you hadn't since
this is one of the few places where you did have some power. You
certainly didn't over his kids for example. And, you are human. No
matter how much you swallow your anger, it's GOT to be there...)>>
Oh yes, the anger is there, as well as hurt and a feeling of
rejection. I guess it’s all basically the same thing. Right.
I want to be totally honest. I don’t feel I’ve purposely,
consciously tried to use the dog to “get back” at Steve, but it’s
possible (probably even maybe? Probable. )
that it happened on a less than conscious level. Exactly.
I know you did not do this on purpose - any more than Steve set out to
hurt you when he did. For example, when Steve was cold and
distant to me it was natural to want to seek out affection from the dog.
This is nothing new, because even as a child I did this when I felt hurt
or upset. My dogs have always accepted, reassured me, and loved me
unconditionally. You reacted to one of
Steve's broken pieces (with a broken piece of your own). When Steve, for
example, rejected one of your "treats" out of his own stuff,
you took the rejection to heart and got solace where you could. Steve
reacted to this. And on and on.
I can see right now how it would have appeared to Steve that I was
“choosing the dog over him” though it was really more that I felt
rejected and was looking for comfort from a source I knew would give it.
Exactly. One person's broken piece bouncing off
the partner's broken piece. When Steve would sleep downstairs, I
used to resent my “compromise” that the dog wasn’t allowed to
sleep in the room. It was sorta like giving something up that was of
great comfort to me and not getting enough back because I would feel so
alone and rejected. Right.
When Steve decided to move out, and was sleeping downstairs, I
decided to let the dog sleep upstairs with me again. I sorta decided I
wasn’t doing anyone any favors by sleeping alone and being unhappy
about it. I guess that could be seen as “getting back” at him, but
even if Steve never knew or cared about where the dog slept, I would
have wanted the comfort and protection of the dog. I just stopped caring
about how he would interpret this. Yes, of course.
But do you see the polarization that is occurring simply because each of
you is bouncing off the partner? This is why its so important to
find your Center and simply let other be.
I think if anything, my anger came out more towards him in areas
where he did seem to respect my input, such as at work. Sure.
That's where the balance of power was more even. Also, I think my
general tone towards him was basically resentful even when he was
feeling happy. We had lots of work power struggles too. I knew I was
angry at a certain level, but I also felt sure at that time, that he
just didn’t understand me He didn't. and
I put a lot of energy into trying to “get” him to understand. I
never completely buried my anger – I think I did try to express my
concerns as clearly as I knew how. I wrote lots of letters to him and
spent lots of time trying to identify the problem but we just kept going
round and round and round… until I found this site. And,
you're still going round and round, just beginning to understand your
respective roles better.
I knew that “getting back at him” wasn’t the answer, maybe
subconsciously I did this sort of stuff, but I knew on a conscious level
that hurting back wasn’t going to solve anything. A lot of my anger
towards him would begin before he left to see the kids (without me) and
would remain until a couple of days after he came back. I know that that
was a definite pattern for me. That's how big the
children issue is for you. Big!
I don’t know if this answers the question. I’ve tried to answer
honestly though. I’m sure there are certain things going on in my
subconscious that I’m still unaware of.
Thanks again Dr. Irene. You’ve gotten me thinking some more, as
always. Asha Thank you Asha. We're amazing
creatures, we human types (Sorry Trubble.). What always amazes me is the
scope of our potential power. Look at all the little places
identified here, where you and Steve have acted unconsciously,
automatically with subsequent negative outcome. Each and every one of
those nooks and crannies are opportunities to exercise choice,
take control of your life, exercise free will... Wow!
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Dear all . This is really a post to the males on the site. But as the
seroxat withdrawal is really taking hold I hope I am going to make
sense! I seem to have stopped using punctuation and forgotten how to
spell and keep hitting the wrong computer keys. Confusion, anxiety,
electric shock type feelings weepiness, just about anything happens and
my research shows this seems to be from sudden or slow withdrawal. Suzy
you were so lucky to have the withdrawal you did. And
the way you are thinking, instead of making it smaller, you are making
it bigger.
Weird how some people find a miracle from a drug which gives others
nightmares. Today seems bad in terms of being hyper sensitive to
everything so apologies if I offend someone in advance!
Steve, I could really identify with Asha about the way she stopped
bothering about the little treats. I stopped this too. My husband when
he did love me used to buy me the most wonderful presents. He is
surprisingly god at choosing clothes for me and always did give me
wonderful ethnic jewelry and clothes.
But I have never been able to reciprocate. Whatever I bought it was
never right. Sometimes it has stayed in one place for over a year. I
would love for him to pretend (like the year he cooked me a birthday
meal which consisted mostly of cabbage) Or to tell me what he wanted.
You see Steve, the dog gives Asha what she needs. He accepts politely
and gratefully what she gives so she gives to the dog again. Steve:
Fight the urge to bristle here. She's right and this is valuable info!
(But, you may already know that.)
I don't know if this is a male thing. But I think it is about us?
females? needing to feel what we give is valid.
In my case my husband won't respond and tell me what he does like and
want. In 20 years he has never been able to understand I would
appreciate it if he would open up enough to tell me. I still would like
to give him something he actually wanted. I would like to feel that what
I gave was valued.
Unfortunately for me I am just back at square one.
He doesn't want to post here. He must be getting codependency
terminology from somewhere. He has just told me he is "not
engaging." THIS DR IRENE IN THE CONTEXT OF MY TELLING HIM YOU HOPED
HE WOULD POST!!! That's fine Jay. Why would you
have expected otherwise? Just let him be.
Yesterday he thought I was stalking him for being in the kitchen at
the same time! I don't think it is me who is crazy.
Trying to give him some credit. It is not easy when someone
deliberately blocks out anything you say......
Not easy when he says things like "maybe you should be sectioned
while you withdraw from the drug. Again we have the "other people
have told him" bit.
I fail to see how they could have. On two occasions when I was
depressed they refused to have me in hospital and repeatedly told me I
was having cause related depression and was NOT mad.
Probably, what was said was IF I became a danger to myself or others
then they would section me (as they would anyone) and this was probably
said to allay his fears at a specific time.
How long do I have to keep trying to prove I am NOT suicidal?
I guess in some senses, for quite a while.
What I wish is I could see when he is genuinely worried and when he
is being abusive. Literally, my mind furs up.
He ....when I was a danger to myself they told me I was sane. When I
definitely wasn't they told me I was.....
Just chosen not to be self controlled and eaten the selection kit I
bought for my sons stocking. I knew I couldn't keep chocolate in the
house that long/......
Asha and Steve. My husband and I also had the mattress problem. We
got two different mattresses and put them together. If you have
different beds as well tie the legs together. (Or you end up with a
crack you fall down!
Dr Irene...official from my mother in law. She thinks I am demon
possessed.....! Maybe I am the escapee from hell!!!!! This is truly
ironic as my husband has always insisted that I think he is demon
possessed. (Theology from the church we went to.) This is one of his BIG
issues. Drop it Jay. This is not your stuff.
Dying to Know how he will cope with this. Drop
it. Work your own program.
Hopefully he will see how stupid the whole issue is. He even wrote
this on the family therapy agenda. He also appears to want to 'stop'
people praying for him!!!! Again an agenda issue. Boy will the therapist
and her team have some fun.....How can you counsel a man who refuses to
believe that his wife doesn't think he is demon possessed. (To be fair
in our very young days we were in the sort of church where everyone
decided they were possessed by demons and demons got cast out every
other moment.)
Actually. Having genuinely (yes) lived in a haunted house and having
some spiritualism in the family I do think there are powers of light and
darkness that latch onto people and make the negative things in them
worse. I didn't do myself any favors getting interested in witchcraft as
a teenager....But I just think that most of the demon theology is hype.
You can pray for someone and they can feel better and free without a lot
of screaming. Please don't criticize others so...
Personally I think that it is often the way people avoid counseling
and therapy. an easy way to avoid the issues.
Well. off to bake a Christmas cake. Love Jay
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Becky here,
I posted last night but I don't see it. Darn! I was so brilliant,
too! :-)
I don't have time to try to recreate it, so I'll sum up: First, Jay,
my doctor is going to have me try Celexa. He was going with Paxil but
when I expressed some concern he willingly changed his mind, said he
didn't want me having negative feelings going in. I haven't gotten them
yet and with a major storm on the way, I may not get to the store until
Tuesday. Steve, I may be reading you wrong, but I go with my gut
feelings when I read your posts. I'm aware that I may be projecting my
anger at my husband onto you since you seem similar in some of your
attitudes. Where you differ is in your willingness to examine what's
going on in regards to your own thinking, and I do give you credit for
that. I do agree with the Doctor that the dog is not the real issue,
just as bath towels, juice glasses, and clutter are not our real issues:
it's all about control and one person wanting most or all of it.
unfortunately, my husband doesn't want to see that. And unfortunately,
(or not depending on how you look at it) my tolerance for the resulting
nuttiness is pretty low! Celexa is another super
drug. Let us know how it goes...
Gotta go, Becky
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Sorry, thinking about it what I said about demons is offensive. Dr
Irene is right. love Jay Hey, you
could have been criticizing cat poop and I would have said the same
thing. My point: Stop going outside yourSelf. Stay inside you Jay and
don't worry about others. Have you noticed how much time you spend
outside???
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family, Hello
FakeDaddyDan 
First off welcome to all newcomers.
I haven't read any of the posts since I last posted so am afraid that
I can't give any comments on what's been happening with your lives.
I guess that I'll start out with Thanksgiving weekend. The first
couple of days were really nice, we had a great time with the grandkids
and also met some old friends. I had lunch with my High School
Sweetheart and we talked about events in our lives after we broke up
until the present.
Sunday, Lynn's dad and his lady friend met us for brunch and he
started in complaining about the political situation, interrupting and
giving his ideas. It went downhill from there. The waiter brought us the
wrong bill and I returned it to him, over Lynn's dad's objections and he
apologized. When he brought another bill, I took it to make sure that it
was the right one, Lynn's dad said Go----- it, give it to me as I'm
paying it. Lynn asked me to get her out of there which I was very happy
to do. I don't know why but I have had enough of his tactics. I felt
pretty good about it too.
On the way home we had car trouble and ended up spending the night in
another town till it was fixed. We then proceeded home and got about 20
miles from home and got behind a dump truck towing a trailer with a
backhoe on it. I got a little close and Lynn unbuckled her seatbelt. I
pulled off at the first wide spot that I found, hopefully to let him get
far enough ahead that I wouldn't run into him again, no such luck. When
I pulled out Lynn felt that I was only doing 15 MPH, and that I was
doing it just to make a statement about no one telling me how to drive.
The other night Lynn said that she wanted to talk, I said OK. She
then went on to say how she felt about the truck and about her dad and
my road rage. So far so good. She then
asked me when she was going to get the respect that I seem to give my
elders. Zinger! Ouchhh! Ouchhh! Ouchhh! Lynn,
next time try, "When you speed like that, it makes me feel
frightened and helpless. Why do that when I'm in the car with you?"
Now you're specific, not attacking, and really asking a question he can
answer. (Except, it's not funny, but I trust you to find a way to jazz
it up.) I didn't give her any reply as I didn't want to be
accused of telling her how to feel, as I have done in the past, not
knowing that I was doing that. Once again, I thought for myself. She
told me that she wanted my feedback. But since I couldn't give her any,
then she felt that to kiss me goodnight would compromise her feelings
also.
I did tell her that as far as respecting my elders, I didn't consider
her one even though she is a year and a half older than I. I think that
this was why I felt good about the ending with her dad Giggle!,
I had been brought up to adults were right no matter what and you had to
respect them for it. He was wrong and didn't deserve any respect, I took
a long time to recognize this fact, but I have. I know that when I was
teaching, that I earned my students respect and didn't demand it. You
lose when you demand and win when you let things occur naturally.
Friday last, we started to decorate the tree, and Lynn didn't seem
herself, as she has always looked forward to this time of year,
something I haven't for a long time, but am looking forward to this
year. I asked her if she wanted to talk and she said that she couldn't
talk to/with me about anything.
I haven't looked forward to Christmas since 90 but this year for some
reason, the commercialization and all the hoopla surrounding it doesn't
matter, it's the day and the feelings which the day conveys for me. I am
even enjoying decorating the tree. Yesterday it was fun watching Lynn
decide which ornament to put on, and then me deciding which branch they
would be safe on. Safe on... Giggle. The pets...
I went to the therapist last Thursday, and we did a sort of genealogy
of my siblings. I told her that I had a chart already drawn up here at
home if she wanted me to bring it next time. She said no. She then told
me that from the information which I had given her that although I don't
necessarily have a depressive personality that I do go too deep into
depression when I am there. I already know this. The one thing which I
don't understand is why knowing how many brothers and sisters I have and
their ages is relevant to the reason that I am going to her. I never
thought of this until just now, I am going to have to ask her. She's
a family therapist. Good!
The thing that really scares me about the future of our relationship
is that Lynn has said that if it works out, it does if not, oh well. I
find that there are days that I feel the same way. I know that
indifference can be just as harmful to a meaningful relationship as
anything else. (Sounds like anger to my uneducated
ears.)
Lynn no longer posts when I am around, which is her decision and I
don't read the posts or post as I did before, perhaps there is a
connection perhaps not.
Now onto a lighter side, it got down below 0 last night and when I
went out earlier it was still -1. My truck let me know it too, started
hard and then drove like a tractor without power steering.
Trubble,
I think that you and LOCO are forever young and kittenish as it seems
that your both getting into the doghouse (pun intended) lately. And
"arf arf" to you too FakeDaddyDan. We should run into each
other then.
But, I love you even though you don't care about me (I'm trying to
butter him up.)
Hugs
Dan
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Dear Trubble, Nope, it's me, FakeMommy...
Lynn here, try hair around the base of the bird feeder. Or red or
cayenne pepper. Suppose to keep furry critters away. ^_^ Or,
"Let them eat trout." hehehe People hair from the beauty shop
or dog hair from the groomers is suppose to work. Heck
why not. How about cat hair from Trubble?
I'll be back. I'm just catching up on the posts and reading the blue
pencils.
Love,
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Hi CatBox and hello Trubble,
Lynn here I got it! At least I know what the problem is. I don't know
the cure yet (yes I do, don't I Dr. Irene?)
Dan asked me 2 nights ago if I wanted to talk and I replied,
"I've wanted to talk for 5 or 6 years."
I know what I want. I've had previous experience with Dan of
"using" what I've told him and then later on down the road
feeling like it was used against me. That's a no
no.
I don't want to talk. I don't want to be heard. Well, yes I do, but
what I say I want it left there and kept locked in somewhere and not
used as ammunition at a later date. Cool. You have
to make sure you do likewise. Zingers, however witty, count.
I think I thought things were getting better and I couldn't even put
my finger on it. There it is. And it happened last week, too. I didn't
recognize it.
Okay, now that I do, I think I know what to do. This I can disengage.
I am mad again. Only at my stupidity. Dan can bring something up not
pertinent to the conversation and change the subject. Bingo. Slippery,
huh?
Been there, done that and now I feel better. I need to be his on the
head with a stuffed trout, Trubble.
Back to you later,
Love, Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
S1
Dear Cat Box,
Lynn here again and life is so simple, it's we the
"thinking" humans that make it so complicated.
I was so sick all day. I couldn't sleep again last night and my
stomach was in turmoil.
Then I read the posts and posted and within minutes I was feeling
better.
Herein lies the secret. Amazing as it sounds, Dan can outtalk me. He
did it last week when I was down over my dad (hence the Gargoyle
reference) and again the other night. I can get taken in by this ALL the
time. In the bar business I only once got taken by a short change
artist. I don't know how they do it, but I know the lingo and just put a
stop to it. I need to do that in my life, too. When the lingo changes, I
take everything at face value and believe everything I'm told.
I have to relate a simple story here. Late H and I had a raging
battle going on about toilet paper. Me, over the roll, he under the
roll. This got so crazy we had to set rules. Whomever used it last got
to put the new roll on and it had to stay that way. Well, we got
nuttier. If the roll got looking low we would the last 20 feet just so
we could put it on "our way." Amazing...
Solution. We bought a holder that held 2 rolls. His went under and
mine went over and who cared in the first place??? We sure did and it
got so far out of proportion that we couldn't think straight.
Of course it wasn't about TP.
B, I loved your reference (and Steve's) about dancing around the
house topless. Ask Dan. I'll bet he'll swear I'd do it home alone in the
closet! I take modest to extremes.
I don't remember who posted about the gifts, but we went those
rounds, too. Dan NEVER said thank you first. It wasn't that he didn't
like the gift. I don't think he ever learned how to say thanks. I think
I countered once with something like, "Fine then, go get your own
gift." We worked on that one. He also used to have his mother go
buy me a gift. I hated it. I would rather have had something from him
than something she wanted me to have. We worked on that, too, and now he
does his own buying and does it great. He also thanks me for whatever.
He'd better!
Well guys, I may go talk now. I have a lot to say.
Loads of love to you all and loads of prayers. Dan just lit a candle
tonight for the lost children. Tall one in a glass tube. The cats are
still after it. I never saw cats so attracted to flame.
Love, Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000
S1
Hi all
First I'll respond to Dr. I's blue posts, then I'll have a closer
look at the other posts.
Re: the tone of my posts, Dr I said <<It comes across as a
zinger, no different from the ones he's put forth that have hurt you.
Specifically, it seems like you want to let people know that it's not
your fault. I did all this good stuff, and this is what he did back.
He's the guilty one, not me. That's the implication.>>
I think this is, in part at least, accurate - the "I did all
this good stuff etc." is true that's how I felt. I felt like if
Steve wasn't so angry (whether at me or at anything else) then a lot of
things wouldn't have escalated because I did really want to find
solutions. Correct. I don't know if it's so
much that I'm wanting to let people know it's not my fault, as just
laying it out on the table as I see it (through whatever filters I may
be wearing - healthy or unhealthy). You are and
it's OK. It just comes across as a zinger in that people will tend to
sympathize with you and vilify him. This is not "wrong" per
se, but it helps create the dynamic between you two that you don't want.
Maybe there was a time when having a perfect appearance mattered
more to me, but I really don't want anyone to side with me over Steve -
I think that would defeat the purpose of my growth. I guess I wouldn't
want anyone to "hate my guts" either though. :) I've been
quick to doubt my own (sometimes healthy) motives frequently during my
relationship, and I'm trying to doubt myself less. Good!
Maybe I *am* looking for understanding though, and to see from others
that there is light at the end of the tunnel (I already know there is,
actually). I don't like being misunderstood, though that's a part of
life I think I just have to get used to. Yes. And
be OK with it if Steve gets upset instead of getting upset that Steve is
upset.
<<When Steve, for example, rejected one of your
"treats" out of his own stuff, you took the rejection to heart
and got solace where you could.>>
Yes. It's hard to know what things he said he really meant and what
things were said out of anger. You can't know.
That's why it's each person's job to watch their speech and gesture. I
still get confused about interpreting some of it. I guess part of this
is first knowing what you *yourself* mean. I'm still not exactly sure
when to believe or not to believe someone, but the difference now is,
when something feels funny to me, I try to step back and identify it. Excellent.
You will then come from a centered position. These things build
up rather quickly so I have to really stop and examine them when they
happen. Right.
<<But do you see the polarization that is occurring simply
because each of you is bouncing off the partner? This is why its so
important to find your Center and simply let other be. >>
I think I'm getting the jist of what you mean, and the trick is now
to put it into practice until it becomes "normal". For now,
I'm trying to at least sense when I'm responding negatively to Steve. Excellent.
And he needs to do same. Again, each of you do all this
"behaving" to remain true to your own selves... Other just
gets to benefit from it.
Some yukky stuff happened to day which relates to this, so I'm going
to write it down. I followed my usual unhealthy pattern of bouncing off
Steve (I think) and I want to pinpoint what went wrong.
We were hiking with Steve's kids who had been bickering a lot. They
put each other down a lot and are quite competitive - their adult role
models (and I'm including myself here) have been no help to teach them
healthy communication skills! So the whining, complaining and bickering
are "normal". I had asked one of Steve's sons to hold the dog
leash until the end of the trail, then the other son would hold it on
the way back. Steve wanted feedback from me because the son with the
leash was complaining that we had taken lots of detours on the way there
and the trail back was much shorter, so the other boy wouldn't have to
carry the leash nearly as far. I just said that sometimes life's not
fair and there would be other times that the other boy would have to do
these things too. (Steve agreed.)
Anyways there was more complaining and (this is what *I'm* perceiving
- could be wrong here) Steve seems to feel that talking this out isn't
enough and that the kids need specific punishments for the competitive,
put down, complaining type behavior. I tried to say that these are
patterns that they are used to and we can't expect them to break these
patterns overnight by using "punishment" - pointing it out,
yes, maybe making some sort of exercise about thinking these things out
even, I don't know. I think it's no surprise that the kids do this. How
can we expect *them* to understand all this, when we are having the
exact same problems? Maybe once we have it all figured out ourselves,
they will tend to listen a little better (the not listening is another
prevalent behavior which I think is a lot to do with getting really
mixed messages from our "role modeling"). Anyway Steve
basically said that my idea of talking things out with them doesn't
work. That he's tried it long enough to see that. I don't agree, and I
don't think we've tried it long enough at all. In fact, I think that
there is much more for both Steve and I to both learn in this area. (BTW
If you can suggest a good "parenting" book, I'm all ears). I
just love Assertive Discipline for Children. Incredible
Years : A Troubleshooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 3 to 8
is also excellent.
Anyway, we decided to turn back on the trail, the boy with the leash
handed the leash to the other boy, who then proceeded to unwind it and
break the spring (it was a "reel in" type leash - breaking it
probably wasn't altogether his fault, though he has a repetitive history
of breaking things so we tend to "assume" he did which isn't
really fair). At this point Steve seemed fairly upset, and I didn't want
to get in the middle of it, so I left them to work out a solution. Then
Steve came back to me and handed me the broken leash. This made no sense
to me and I told him I had asked the other boy to carry it back. (Steve
knew that because the first boy had complained about this). It made no
sense to me that he broke the leash then was semi-rewarded for this by
not having to carry it back. Correct. So
Steve turned away from me in an angry way and went ahead on the path.
There was no talking about it at this point. I still don't get the logic
of what went on. Anyways, we had a fairly silent trip back for awhile,
and I figured we'd talk about it later, but I felt rather miffed because
I just felt there could have been a more peaceful solution and we were
role modeling more bad behavior. I agree. Don't
expect Steve to catch his anger right away. It will take him time in
most cases. The more he practices, the less time it will take. He just
auto piloted...
When we got home, it seemed to me that Steve was being really
sensitive about the kids teasing him. The teasing seems pretty normal to
me (though perhaps not ideal), but I see it as them looking for
affection from their dad. For example they cover their ears when he
plays guitar for dramatic effect, call him silly names etc. I'm no
expert on how to deal with this stuff, but it seemed to me that Steve
got more offended by it than necessary. Probably.
But again, he's new at all this and I don't expect him to be able to
react calmly most of the time. Especially when one incident follows
another.
I mentioned it to Steve and he told me "not to tell him what he
was feeling." He was right. It was just my "read" on the
situation. I really don't know how he was feeling. (My bouncing off him
again, I'm sure.) I just felt uncomfortable with some of his reactions
to their behavior - they appeared to me to make the behavior
"bigger" than it was. I agree. Anyway,
I did feel uncomfortable about the role modeling aspect of it. You
don't have to like it and you don't have to participate in it. But, you
do have to respect that they are his kids.
Then the topic of discipline came up again. Steve said that I use the
same methods as his ex - just to "talk it all out". I have no
idea what methods his ex uses, and it's doesn't really matter to me, but
I honestly don't feel that Steve really knows my "methods" cuz
I've never had a chance to practice them to any extent. He said that he
*has* allowed me to use them, and has watched them and he feels they
don't work. Anyway, I feel we both lack knowledge in this area. Asha,
your methods seem reasonable to me. I think Steve was just having a
yukky day... I have a feeling he was in part bouncing off your
disapproval of his ways. Steve: please feel free to correct me; I don't
want to put words in your mouth.
The kids (IMO) sensed that something was in the air and started to
act up more. Kids are very talented at that! I
got them to do the dishes, and one threw the dish stopper down because
he couldn't get it working. I told him there was no point getting mad
and he said in a low, growly voice "I'm *not* *mad*." I feel
like both boys are angry, *very* angry and I'm really concerned about
where that could lead. Not much you can do about
it Asha, other than alienate Steve.
When Steve came back, I let him deal with the bickering good,
and went to do other things. I just felt like anything constructive I
could contribute wouldn't be well received by Steve, and I couldn't
stand there and watch them all in such foul moods without saying
anything. Sure.
When Steve left to drop the kids off, he came in to speak with me
privately. I had thought I would try to cool down and then ask him some
specific questions but I wasn't "cooled down" when he came in
to talk. I said (in a too blunt way) that if "punishment" for
the kids patterned behavior works, then it should also work if I
"punished" Steve every time he went into an old pattern. I
really wish I could have cooled down more before saying this, because
the point I wanted to make was constructive, but I unfortunately
delivered it in an angry way. Yes, humans tend to
do that. Anyway, he was, of course, insulted and said that kids
and adults are different. And yes they are, I think... kind of, but not
really.
Thanks to anyone who has had the patience to read through all this
junk and can offer constructive feedback!
One good thing - After Steve left (mad), I didn't guilt myself or get
worked up over him having left on a bad note. Excellent.
I'm realizing that these are really *BIG*, *really* important issues
for me, and I just can't carry on in the relationship, without finding a
constructive way to deal with them. The last thing I need is an angry
man and two angry teenagers in my life! (And this isn't meant to say
that I believe it *has* to be that way - I think we humans can change
and have enormous influence on our children, if we so choose.) Steve
is changing Asha. But, he won't transform overnight. Let him make his
errors, and give him feedback only if he requests it or he's obviously
open to it.. You won't be accomplishing much otherwise.
And to also add some balance to the post, in case it does seem like
I'm trying to "one up" Steve, I want to say that we had a
really nice time with the kids earlier in the weekend. That I could see
at times, Steve was consciously overriding some old typical impulses
(maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed this way). Also, he showed affection to
me in front of the kids, which he never used to do, and that was nice. Yes!
Though I wasn't in the room, he also put on a hilarious puppet
show for the kids (who totally get enthralled by this), and did some
great guitar playing and singing. When Steve and I behave well
ourselves, I see such positive impact in the kids' behavior. Yes!
Kids are like barometers...
I'll try to look at the posts and respond to some of them tomorrow,
cuz it's getting really late.
love and hugs
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000
S1
I think I am really just trying to work some stuff through.
Dr Irene, for the first time EVER I felt really mad at you yesterday.
I was going to post but decided it was better to work out why I felt so
mad. Yes. Get a cool head and then reply.
The good bit being I could now, my rationality has returned, stop and
think 'what is going on here? It might not be about Dr Irene." The
initial reaction was because you said: "don't criticize so."
Instead of ignoring it , I apologize for something I am not even sorry
about. Really, I think my thoughts are valid. So I got mad at myself for
being dishonest with myself!
Then, it never was about that remark I was mad at you. I found the
source later. "He is not as bad as you say he is." He is
actually worse. What it was, and still is about, is that it is very
difficult when you are not believed. That has been part of my difficulty
all along. My husband is abusive and he is sometimes violent. He just
doesn't present that way to others. Even my closest friend has problems
believing he could ever be violent. This is also why I changed doctors.
This is the reason I became depressed. Violence is
never ever OK. And you should not have violence in your life. But the
reality is that even a creepy person is not always creepy, so it
is not a matter of being believed or not. Besides, who cares what
anybody thinks! I find it almost impossible to make global
judgments (unless I'm real mad, giggle...).And, if the chemistry between
the two of you is such that he is creepy too much of the time, get
yourself away from him!
Rationally, although I emailed you so you do know the
"story" there is no reason why you shouldn't have your own
opinion. So I am even mad at you for validating and then not validating
me? (Yes definitely not logical.) I know it can be
trying when I support parts of what you do and not others. But, that
just goes hand in hand with how I am trained to observe and respond to
clinical material. I really take few if any "sides" other than
what seems to me to be the side of the other person's healthy Self. Most
of the time, I'm pretty good at this.
The root of it is, nothing, of course, to do with you. It is about
wanting someone else; e.g., husband to validate my feelings and say he
is sorry. About feeling nothing will move forward until I have this from
him. It is about wanting him to take responsibility for what he has
done. I think really, I want revenge. I would like him to feel as I
have. I would LIKE him to experience what I feel and have felt. I
understand, promise. Yet, it's my "job" to tell you that if
that's what you require, you're probably setting it up so that there
will never be a meeting of the minds.
I am sure he might want the same for things I have done to him. But I
can't deny my own feelings. Good. Don't deny. Just
control the behavior and assess if it's working in your favor. Are you
helping yourself get what you want, or are you shooting yourself in the
foot?
Now I think the Paxil has worn off and I did have the symptoms I
wrote about, I do not think it is a good drug for many people. (my gripe
is more about lack of information than it is about the existence of the
drug). I still can't just say the reasons I ended up on it are invalid! These
drugs are an educated guess for the prescribing physician. But, it's a
shotgun approach. Keep trying till something works.
Looking inside, my problem is on the outside. So is his. We are both
so angry at each other. He does do good things. At the height of all our
troubles he kept saying he was doing what he could. But what he did felt
abusive because of things he had previously done.
So what I'm really mad at you is at making me face how unwilling I am
to forgive him. Which needs to happen if we stay together or not. Cool!
I appreciate that kind of anger.
(Light aside form the best son in the world. He is off sick today and
has just walked in to say he wants to be looked after "because he
is worth it!" I wish I has his self esteem!)
So in the end what, and who I am really mad at is me, as I can't
forgive and I know that that is what eats people up and destroys them. STOP!
You can forgive. You just don't want to. At least right now. So, let it
be; don't fight it. Just be aware. I don't want to think of
myself as someone unable to forgive. As bitter about what has happened.
(The righteous anger I can keep.) I dislike my own bitterness. To
balance this, I am a lovely person as well! I
know.
But what I can see is that I have forgotten how my anger affects
others. The temptation was to write a post starting "Irene"
just because I was mad at you. (Steve note this.) Not
a big deal. All my clients call me "Irene." I do the Dr. Irene
thing on the site for credibility. I used to get annoyed when people
would "Irene" me early on. Then, I decided it wasn't worth it.
Now, I sign off emails "Dr. Irene" and think I'd rather just
be signing my name. To deliberately disrespect and invade what I
am perfectly aware of is a means of creating an appropriate professional
distance. To hope I could upset you for upsetting me.....Possibly, I
have just felt so hurt that I haven't cared how others are affected.
Definitely, so hurt that anything that I could do or say to hurt seems
justified. Blow the effects on them. (I don't for a minute think I would
have affected you in any way, I am just trying to work through the
feelings). I know that. And that's where I say
"STOP" and ask you to examine whether or not you are shooting
yourself in the foot. Why I ask people to chill before they do
anything...
Of course I spend all that time outside myself. If I don't I will
have to do what I don't want to....
I guess I will find al the answers through the Christian faith I
have. I know them anyway in the head sense so I don't need the sermons
(or maybe I do). Right now, if it worked, I would believe in the God of
green cheese. I have no "Theology' left. God
is inside you and talks to you all the time...
Strangely I remembered some things today. Like my husband comes from
an extraordinarily eccentric family. (So, I have to say they are the
ones who let him be eccentric.) Like the study door thing originally
came about when he worked at home and then it was about locking up
valuable equipment. Like this is the man who changed jobs to spend more
time with his family....Like this is the man who once did nothing round
the house...he may be abusive but he does try. Yes.
The whole point is nobody is all good or all bad all the
time. We tend to be baddest when we don't control our behavior and do
not act in accord with taking care of the Self. Victim types typically
think they are all good. My job is to show them otherwise. Angry types
tend to pretend they are all good but secretly feel they are all bad.
You're not alone in getting angry with me for what I point out. This
stuff is often hard to hear, which is why I have a job.. The good news
is I'm safe to get mad at since I generally don't retaliate, and if I
do, I own it pretty quickly. Thanks for writing all this. Watching
people grow makes me feel good.
OK, time to sleep. Be back...
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000
S1
Hi ALL,
OH Steve, you don't how much it means to get a post from you about
this. IT shows how much you have grown, and helps me see we can all get
better. WELL DONE STEVE!!!!
Steve I am glad it was you who replied, because you previously posted
about it not all being one sided. WELL your absolutely right. I learnt
to be angry with my X who was the negatively empowered one. Though I was
the negatively disempowered one. SO I TOO had lots and lots of anger
also. I ENGAGED as you rightly pointed out to me and still do.
Though what bothers me is THE DISPLACING of my anger on to others who
are nothing to do with all of the chaos. YESTERDAY for instance my
sister just asked me HOW come I'd been so long. I SAID "Look I had
things to do, why is it everyone needs to know where I am and clock
watches for me." SHE SAID YIKES your in a bad mood, you need to
sort yourself out, otherwise you'll have no friends left. SHE IS
RIGHT!!!
I am even more frustrated because it seems I can't relax for one
minute. My daughter sees to this, it seems where ever we go, she is
naughty and hitting kids. I end up yelling at her in frustration. I am
so hypersensitive at present (GUESS YOU GATHERED THIS ALREADY!!) I am
sick of being told "YOU must do something about that child",
from friends and family. WHAT ON EARTH CAN I DO!! Its obvious my yelling
isn't helping. I've read and read books. THE trouble is if I let up she
gets worse and I can't allow her to hit 2 year olds can I? If I am not
stood over her saying NO don't do that, she is up to no good.
She has bit my niece who she never got on with very well in the first
place (GIRLS eh!!!) but recently she has been even more tense. My niece
is only one year younger than MISSY so they clash somewhat.
Its just so difficult!! that is an understatement its impossible!!!
Christmas day we are gonna have the two girls in one house, YIKES how
are we gonna cope?
STEVE, YES I do know I am angry and have a problem with it!!! (HARD
TO ADMIT but I know I had to if I am gonna get this under control.) You
say the money vs. self worth is perfect opportunity, HOW???
GOSH Yes this is a big button for me. How do I sort it out????
I have spent 7 whole years being told that everything I do is NOT
contributing. I tried so hard, I just get so angry with having to
compete. I WANTED my X to acknowledge whilst we lived together that we
were a team and what I did was valuable. BUT NOPE he still to this day
thinks he gave more. Maybe materially he did, but I gave emotionally, I
also loved after our child. I walked on egg shells so he'd not have more
stress on top of work.
MAYBE that is it, maybe I am mad at myself for walking on egg shells
and then expecting thanks for this!! FOR years I kept MISSY quiet and
tip toed around so he could sleep. HE would still outsiders that I
always wake him up with my noise. Normal noise like putting bowls on the
sideboard to make MISSY breakfast. Even that I walked heavy. BOY maybe
he'd be better in a bed sit I would think a place all on his own!!! I
mean what man who yells and curse deserves a family, INDEED what man.
(Well I to yell and curse now!!! so maybe I have no room to talk!!) NOW
he has the peace and quiet and is all alone so maybe he got what he
asked for. AFTER all GOD does give us what we ask for.
I read that the recognition is in seeing how it helped someone else
one of your skills and feeling real pride. BUT where does that go in
this case???
I mean he wasn't pleased when I was trying to be quiet, he even
blamed me for not being. SO how can I be okay about all this???
Thanks a million, GOD I wish you would send the answers cuz I am so
fed up and worn out!!!
Thanks Steve.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene,
Lynn here. Hello All. Have a migraine today, one of the in the toilet
ones, but things are going better and I need to post. This was about
Steve and I was weeping over the post. I did it to Dan again. 2 days
later he decided I was upset and then he offered to talk. I said I'd
wanted to talk for 5 or 6 years. Yeah! Dropping
those old bad habits is tough!
Gave me a chance and I threw it back in his face. Well after we both
posted (We communicate sooo well on the boards), I asked him just to
listen. I may have been wording these wrong. It was about the warning
to Steve to use the knowledge but NEVER use it against Asha. Bingo.
Dan and I can get into discussions, fights and whatever and then zoom,
out of somewhere comes something else (usually something I've shared
with him). Last night I tried to use a pretty generic example and used
the time in an argument when he called me a lousy mother, rotten
daughter and a slut. Not meaning to bring that up again (I never told
him any different) but because it was so impertinent to the argument. He
right away said, "Correct me if I'm wrong. Were we both not
fighting below the belt that night?" Sheesh Dan says, that's not
the point. The point is that I don't like this stuff being used against
me at a later date. Right.
Conversation got better and thoughtful after that. Same about the
driving. I asked him to slow down. He was being nasty. He hasn't done
that in a long time.
Jist of this, I think is we do so well posting. The talk to talk
still is like a competition. I really think I/we had a better
relationship when I'd reply to him to stick it in his ear or go do
unnatural (or natural) acts in the closet I quit that because that is
not the way I want to talk to a loved
