The Doc's Answers 7
Tuesday, November 13, 2001
09:42:40 AM
Six months after I separated from my wife of 20 years, I met a person. She was beautiful, engaging, and down on her luck. Initially we started off as friends but the relationship quickly blossomed into a love affair and continued for 2.5 years. The relationship has had many ups and downs and because of my uncertainties I refused to live with her, but we continued. Once I suggested she have cosmetic surgery and she insisted that I go for counseling. My friends, when they initially met her, thought she was wonderful - but after a time concluded that there was something wrong with. She has had 5 jobs in the space of time I have known her (someone else has always been to blame for the jobs not working out.) This is trubblesome. and very few constant friends.
She has been a big sister and rejected by her little sister or their mothers twice. Huh? Her current employer has sent her for counseling because of strained relations in the workplace, "None can get along with her". She is demanding, critical of me and others, and continually changes our relationship, sometimes we are friends, sometimes lovers; once I was introduced as her fiancée. I refused to move in with her because I was concerned about the level of involvement she wanted in my children's life, and I was concerned about the level of control she might want to exert over me. She has made new friends and excluded me from knowing them. Yuk. Once she met a well known entertainer, subsequently called him and met him for dinner, announced she was leaving me for a committed relationship with him - and never heard from him again. And you were there to take her back... She has a very flamboyant personality. She loves being the centre of attention and comes up with grandiose or foolish schemes. Hypomanic? She is estranged from all members of her family and has few long term friends. She is a very good liar and I would guess has cheated on me. She was a ballerina and a playboy bunny in the past. At 14 she had an abortion that rendered her barren. She blames that on her mother. She's been married twice but is not on good terms with either of her ex husbands. What are you doing with this lady?
My counselor cannot understand why I have not left her, and I believe it is because I am codependent. I am an only child whose mother was sick most of my life and I think I have a tendency to search out women in distress, but I suspect that I have abuser tendencies too. We all do. My counselor tells me that I describe people fairly. I assume this means that I do not blame easily. I have been drawn to beautiful women, I think, because my mother was an invalid and I am compensating somehow. My question is : Is she a narcissist? Perhaps; I don't know. If she is I do not wish to be involved with her. What is the long term outlook like for her? The past is the best predictor of future behavior. Certainly, this lady is trubble. For instance what will happen to her as she gets older, less attractive and finds it more difficult to entice men? Recently she decided again that we should be friends and wants to spend more time with a new group of people she thinks are terrific. I have not met any of these people. I was upset, told her that I cared deeply for her, but that she had some faults which I enumerated. She flew into a rage and I have not heard from her for several weeks. Is this likely to be the last I hear of her? Only if you're lucky. You're so busy enumerating her issues, you are neglecting your own. Does this back and forth feel good? Are you content? If this stuff is OK with you, which I doubt since you are writing me, go for it. If it is creating pain, ask yourself if you want to continue to hurt yourself.
You are looking for labels: You will leave "if she is a narcissist..." You explain being with her because you are "codependent." Well, fine; so what? Where will this get you? You seem to be using labels as an excuse/ rationale to explain behavior rather than as a body of knowledge you may use to free yourSelf from self-created pain. What difference does it make whether or not she's a narcissist? What difference does it make what's likely to happen to her in the future? Her behavior is hurting you now. That's all that really matters... Simplistically, your options are to allow things to continue as they have - or not. So far, each day for the past 2.5 years, you have chosen to let it be. Your choice; one you get to make each moment you breath. Doc
Dear Dr Irene,
I have read a lot of interesting things on your site and it has helped me to understand myself better. Thank you. Thank you! Almost one year ago, I met an intelligent, cultivated guy with a good job, money, good manners (invited me for dinner, opened the door of the car for me, etc.). He showed interest in me. I told him that after a recent painful love experience, I wanted to be friends before anything else. He told me that if a woman said that she wanted to be friends with a guy, she meant that he was not "the right guy" for her. Hmmm... Already he's (mis) interpreting you...He said that he was "better than most guys" and "that I should not be so defensive and have trust in people". Second big YUK... (If I will hear this again, it will raise a red flag!) Good! I let myself be convinced and we started a relationship. Do you see how you mistrusted yourSelf and gave him the benefit of the doubt? You knew why you wanted to be friends first and why. You told him. He did not hear you/ respect your opinion/ call it what you want.
We spent Xmas evening together, which was important for me as I have no contact with my family (my mother abused me emotionally and physically, my father just ignored it) and had lonely X-masses before. I cherish some elements of my Catholic background, such as X-mas, while he was an atheist. I had decorated my place, prepared a good meal, and to my shock, he started to rant about X-mas: it's commercial, superficial, etc... I can understand why he might feel that way, but how rude and inconsiderate of him to voice those views! If he had any sense, he would instead have focused on appreciating the atmosphere you provided... I tried to explain its meaning for me but that only made things worse. Exactly; he's looking for an argument. The Pope and the whole Catholic Church now also became targets of the ranting. YUK! In the end I felt so hurt that I asked him to leave. Good for you! I wish your internal monologue put a little more emphasis on "How dare he!" rather than "Why is he doing this to me?" (Answer: Because he's inventing problems. Yuk!)
Now HE was shocked, like I've never seen anybody been shocked. Hehehehe! The next day he told me no one ever reacted to him like that, that I had a problem. Nope. Your only "problem" was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but early on that's OK since even the sweetest people sometimes do dumb things. I tried to explain how attacked I felt, but he told me that I took it personal and that it was not meant that way and that I was not "cool" enough about it. That may be, but so what? With him, had you been "cool", he would have just upped the ante. I tried to restart the relationship by proving that I was "cooler" and "less aggressive" thinking that I blew it with this decent man.
I know this says a lot about my self esteem at the time. I felt that I was a failure in relationships compared to him who has an 8 year relationship behind him, which was very good - uh, except for the fact that his ex-gf cheated on him several times and left him in the end. Giggle! Sounds like he gave you the opportunity to learn a lesson you needed to learn; and, it sounds as though you learned plenty!
We did get back together but things just got worse. Let me guess: All the promise he seemed to hold and his effect on getting you to second-guess yourSelf kept you around... One problem was his ranting about everything. As an expatriate in my country he was complaining that nothing worked properly here (we’re talking about a rich West-European country). Plus: how his colleagues are stupid and he is the best, how some women are fat, how other drivers are idiots, how this or this athlete is a loser, etc... Nothing is safe and for me this comes across as aggressive; we couldn't turn on the TV or there was some "idiot" shown. He was affectionate and would never have hit me, but I started feeling uneasy with him. He told me that this is his style, that he has strong opinions. Somehow I feel aggressive and I am angry with myself about feeling that way. You should feel angry, but you need not behave aggressively (which will only help you second-guess yourSelf more out of your guilt).
I become nagging. I bring up complaints to which he reacts by criticizing me: "I am not grateful for the fact that he is better than my previous bfs, I don't see the opportunities he can offer me (he is indeed rich), I am too sensitive, I don't want to be happy." I lash out at him and then feel guilty afterwards. He's right! Giggle! Why are you allowing yourSelf to do this? We make up and I think of myself as an ungrateful, difficult person. Not quite, but I can understand how you're feeling this way... He tells me that "I am on probation" and that he does not see "any progress". I was very confused as my problems and anger issues did not seem to offer the full explanation for our problems. I started to think that he was struggling with some issues as well. Yes! Haven't you noticed that everything is your fault? Gee...
But when I suggested that, he told me that he only reacted on me and that he did not have this problem with anyone else. Right, since he's rationalized all that. End of the story? It should have been. He breaks up with me after I have lashed out again. Well, that is 4 months ago and now I feel very angry and bitter. It should have been, but you played into his web of promise if only you (fill in the blank). He never physically or sexually abused me, he was generous but I had the feeling that everything had to be his way and if it didn't, he had so many verbal tricks to make me feel worthless. This is emotional abuse. The ranting is verbal abuse.
For example: “you are so intelligent, but it's a pity that you don't use your intelligence and get rid of a guy like me”. I have the feeling he is manipulative and controlling. Yes, very. If I dare to tell him this, it are allegations or "misunderstandings". Exactly why it's not worth your breath trying to show him otherwise. He calls me a stupid bitch, or tells me that "I deserved it". YUK!
I realize that I have not set my boundaries enough and that the Xmas thing should have raised a red flag. Ideally, I would have wanted both of us to look at our issues and come to terms with them in order to have a better and happier life together. But he thinks he is "normal" and I am not, he told me that therapy is for weak people and that he'd rather commit suicide than go into therapy, and that I come from a dysfunctional family whereas he comes from a "normal" family (about which I have my doubts, because he is ranting about his mother all the time). Dr Irene, I had some problems to write the story down in an orderly way but I hope you can give me some comments. You did an excellent job.
I am now seeing a therapist who works with EMDR. We work around the anger I feel about the abuse by my mother, and all the times I was emotionally abused because I have never learnt to set boundaries. Good! Both of you seem to come from dysfunctional families. The difference is that you own your stuff (and then some...) and he doesn't. That's why you are likely to improve and he isn't. You are repeating the pattern with mom: you really really wanted her to be reasonable - so she could be a mom. What kid doesn't want that? Nevertheless, you are no longer a kid, but you continue to think like a victim. You want him to become reasonable - instead of realizing you have no power to change him. But you can change yourself. Therapy will be wonderful for you.
Consider reading The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life by Albert Ellis. Or look at some of the books on boundaries and codependency in The Book Shelf or your local bookstore/ library. Just in case you missed something, make sure to look through the Victim and Codependency and Email Advice sections here. Look just below the top banner for more links and/ or go to the home page and do a search. You deserve to learn to protect yourSelf. Good luck. Doc boy did he blow. I'm paying for it now, its all like some punishment game. can you talk to me about this? d.w.
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Thursday January 03, 2002
While reading some interesting things on your site, I tried to a link on http://www.drirene.com/abuserpages.php in the center box there's a link titled "Dr Irene's Abuser Checklist". but a different article appears when I click the link "Tips for...". Is this correct? Yes. I changed the name of the article to better reflect it's title. Thanks. You're welcome!
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Friday April 05, 2002
My husband B. and I have been separated for a year and a half. He moved out---it was his choice. He was verbally abusive. He was also suffering from severe depression and anxiety (now on meds). Good for him! Too many people don't realize depression and anxiety are physical diseases! Since then, he has also been through 30 day outpatient treatment for alcoholism. He is sober, going to AA. He is also a workaholic who owns his own business and works long hours.
He lives nearby and sees me and our daughter frequently for short periods of time. He is usually respectful, but occasionally lapses back into verbal abuse or rage. (I leave when that happens; he is remorseful and apologetic the next day.) Good for you for walking away from it and not engaging.
I have been in therapy for about a year, and am working my own program (Al Anon). Excellent. I try to stay detached, but it is very, very hard. I love him; I have for 25 years. I have tried to leave open the door, but I just don't see any "movement" on his part toward rebuilding our marriage. He says we are reestablishing intimacy, we are moving closer, etc. but I just don't see it.
It's crazymaking in some ways, because his words don't match his actions. After lots of begging, crying, and explaining my feelings, trying to understand his, etc. (all useless activities) I am feeling like I need to stop seeing him and move on with my life...whatever that means...I am feeling less anxiety, panic, etc. but more grief and loss. Yes. Seeing him casually and frequently is now making me feel worse. Sounds like seeing him raises your hopes, only to find them dashed again a short while later. (I saw an attorney several months ago and have some idea of what my divorce would be like. I'll survive, on every level.) How will I know when it is over, if he will never say that it is--- but also never make any move to return to me?
Right now, I feel like I'm stuck in neutral, and I've survived, but I don't want to go on like this forever! You will go on like this until you decide it's time to get off the roller coaster. How long are you willing to continue to hurt yourSelf by remaining in a relationship that frustrates you?
When and how will I move on? How can I lessen my pain? Well, you already know what you have to do, but your co-DEPENDENCY is holding you back, something you already know. And, it will continue to hold you back, in the future as well as in the present relationship if you don't begin to deal with the tendency to emotionally rely on other vs. the Self.
On lessening your pain: Are you depressed? Do you need to check out an antidepressant to get you over the hump? Again, while we can create our own depression, depression is nevertheless a physical illness, a chemical predisposition that is treatable by medicine and/or by therapy. If therapy hasn't helped enough, medicine may be the way to go. Talk to your therapist; talk to your MD. Certainly worth a try.
Are you mindful of the thoughts that run through the back of your mind and create or potentiate your emotional state? What are you secretly or not-so-secretly hoping he'll do? Declare his love, come back, etc? Well, stop trying to anticipate/control what you'd like him to do. He's already got enough to worry about dealing with his own stuff, and, his behavior is not under your control. He may or may not become whole, but he certainly he does not have the power to create your happiness. Why are you still hoping he could? Pay attention to what you are telling yourSelf, then evaluate the logic behind your thinking.
Does it occur to you that if you can summon up the courage to do what you already know you have to do, he may change? (Though the whole point of doing what you have to do - is to take control and change your life!) In other words, learn to deal with your dependency needs so they no longer run you.
Use your head. Take charge! If you want him back, tell him what you want and let him do as he will. If he won't come back, accept it and get on. Should he come back, accept him as he is, not as what you feel he is capable of being. Or, summon the courage to go it alone and take the chance that you may or may not find the person you want. Stick to your guns. You may discover that you have found yourSelf in the process; that you are already whole; that another person can compliment your life, not complete it.
Look at The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life by Albert Ellis. This book could give you a better understanding of how your underlying assumptions sabotage you, and how they don't have to.
This is not easy. Breaking out of dependency habits takes courage and more courage. You're in touch with yourSelf. Become even more mindful. When your body speaks, listen...
Thanks, Eileen Thank you, and good luck. Doc
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Friday April 19, 2002
Ok here goes. I am nearly 42, I have 5 kids ranging from 20 to 5 years of age, 3 from #1 marriage, 2 from this one. Currently I am about to sit finals of law degree. Congratch!!! Have been married this time for 10 years, 13 years the first time round - #1 was violent, #2 is not violent towards me but has aggressive tendencies - usually directed at my 15 year old son - not his. I am stuck, depressed and semi-suicidal - just want to walk and keep on going BUT I cannot leave my kids - so I won't. How about taking the kids and leaving him? Found this site 6 months ago - so much clicked and for a while I felt much much better about myself. However, nothing is changing - I am doing some of the stuff that I have read about here - trying to detach, not engage with H when he makes comments about me and the kids, so his methods are now about throwing this stuff back at me, eg - I say I am tired or depressed - so is he and so much worse than me, or please leave me alone I am trying to study - I get either that is all I care about , or I am a cold and frigid person. Correct. Tell him, "Yes, I am a cold, frigid person and I am a tired person," and "I didn't ask you how tired you were," or, "I didn't realize this was a contest." .Sex is totally off the menu because I mentioned that I do not like it that he is always grabbing me or touching me - if I respond he expects sex and I am just not interested. I raise an issue - could be anything - it is always thrown back to me. eg please don't tell me what to do - he says now you are telling me what to do, you are trying to control me. Stop answering him and defending. Stop expecting him to understand what you said or to even hear what you said. It doesn't matter. He is angry and hostile but says I see him at the enemy. The answer is, "Yes. I do." Stop. End of story; don't take it anywhere else. He went for my 15 year old 6 months ago and I logged the incident with the police. Recently our 7 year old daughter asked him to stop cuddling her - he refused and she hit him - he hit her back and stormed off. Not OK. Maybe this one should have been logged too. He got angry because I did not tell her off about this - I tried to tell him that he should respect her wishes - apparently she is copying her cold mother. Don't listen to his rationalizations. You're not going to change what he thinks, so why give them any credence in your head? So same daughter then tells her school that daddy hit her with a hammer - she did say it was an accident - this never happened - we had social services involved - very, very scary. That's how it felt to her. Good reason to grab the kids and go! H and his mother said that someone - apparently one of the older kids put her up to this. Perhaps the older kids have had it too! He was angry and scared and my son could so easily have dropped him in it by telling social services about the other incident - he didn't - yet we are all still out to get him. Maybe you should be out to get him. He certainly deserves it! I want out I think but I cannot seem to handle the guilt of all this Then consider the guilt of putting your children through this...- taking the younger kids father away from them, feeling that he needs my help - he doesn't see why I am hurting or why I should be depressed. I know I sound pathetic You sound like an abused wife, one who is depressed, demoralized and beaten down. - I feel pathetic - I want to go to sleep and never wake up again. Consider an antidepressant. Go to DV; go to your family. Every bone in your body is telling you to get out. So are your kids. Well??? I have developed a stomach ulcer and I am constantly fighting depression because of the medication that I am on for endometriosis. I need something or someone to just help me to bounce back - sorry - this is probably far too long. I thought I had some answers to all of this yet I now feel further away from some kind of peace than ever. I have been depressed before - post natal about 5 years ago - H threatened to have me committed and then cite the illness in a divorce making me an unfit mother - for a while he convinced my that his mother and mine were going to support him in this - so I shaped up and got on with my life - also with the help of meds. Do not want the meds at the moment - they make my head feel foggy and I cannot have that with my finals coming up. I just want some respite and to stop crying. I usually go under the name of Noangel and I used to be chris Lucas-Dean - not sure who the hell I am anymore. Ask your Doc about Celexa; it's got the lowest side effect profile. You are depressed. Depression increases feelings of guilt, helplessness, confusion, etc. Depression is a physical illness. It is treatable. You'll be in a much better position to deal with the horrible abusive situation that is probably creating (or contributing to) your depression in the first place! Good luck with the tests - you're almost home free! Good luck NoAngel! Doc