Comments for Catbox4

Comments for Cat Box 4

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

Dear All,

I think we are taking over Dr. Irene's site! If this keeps up, we'll fill up every available inch of cyber-space, and then what!? Go for it!

I just finished scrolling through cat box 3, and I probably won't remember everything that was said or what I wanted to reply to, but I'll try.

First, Dr. Irene, thanks so much for spending time with this group! I feel I should pay you! Spending time on this site, and reading your comments to me helps tremendously, and probably makes me easier to deal with when I see my own therapist! :-) She likes your site, by the way. Thanks!

You are right--I do know what needs to be done, and I don't like it. I know that, barring some sudden turn around in him, I will have to take a very strong stand. I've come very close, once even getting his suitcase out and telling him to pack it! But that was foolish of me, because I NEED to be calm and level headed, and have my ducks in a row before I do that. For now, I'm working on detaching, and when something happens, and I don't react the way I should, I always spend time thinking about that, and planning what I'll do if and when it happens again. The feeling of control (over myself) that that gives me helps keep me focused and calm. But it's been hard the last few weeks; I've felt very rocky off and on!

Patricia Evans' book: in retrospect, I don't think that was the best book to give him, but I don't have any others that deal with the subject. I agree that she's hard on the abuser, but I wanted him to read it mainly to understand the effects of abuse on the victim (I HATE that word! Is there another we could use?) I have since come to realize that he's very good at protecting himself from seeing, and feeling, the consequences of his actions. He seems to think that if HE says I shouldn't be hurt, then that's the truth--'nuff said. I think controllers really need to define reality, not only for themselves, but others, too. And if the truth has to be dispensed with, so be it. Anyway, he needs to read something that will give him insight into himself, THEN he'll be open to understanding how his behavior affects me.

You mentioned (to Lynn I think) that there's a fine line between spouse and therapist. When I try to be "therapist," he resents it, yet he seems to want me to play that role, as in "How do I learn to be empathetic?" or "What should I do to not be abusive?" I'm tired of answering these questions then having him ignore or invalidate me, or deny that he's got a problem in the first place! He is quite upset with me, and tries to make me feel that I'M failing the marriage because I've been telling him to find those answers out for himself. But you know, ever since I've started doing that, I feel like a lot of weight has been lifted off my shoulders. You are right, Dr. Irene, as long as I care, he doesn't have to. I just can't go on caring for BOTH of us!

By the way--he is into Edgar Cayce, too! So you two would probably have some interesting things to talk about! I have nothing against interest in these things; I just think that some people use them as a substitute for real life, and that my H, in the past, was at risk for doing that. I could be wrong, of course, since I only know what he's chosen to tell me.

Re: the conversation about household repairs, remodeling, etc. I don't have the money to hire it done, and he absolutely won't consider it! In fact, my desire that we hire at least some of this out is, in his opinion, indicative of something "wrong" with me. It makes no sense to him to hire someone to do what he can do himself. Ironically, he's in a service business, and depends on people not "doing it themselves."

To Lynn, Dan, AK and AngryGirl, I find your posts helpful and enlightening, and I thank each of you for sharing! Because of my work schedule, I can't attend a support group, but you guys, and the folks on the message boards are a great substitute for that.

I hope we all have great week. My H is coming home tonight, and I am getting myself together, working on feeling calm and yes, DETACHED! Wish me luck! Good luck!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Hi Becky, Hello Group.

Trubble maybe you should re name us the Chatty Cattie's ? I read your post and will get back to you. We just read the "Blue Prints" on page 3 and are deep in thought here. We want to re read them, too.

Will talk to you later and the best of everything. I have decided this is teaching us old cats new tricks so keep up the good work.

Love and Prayers to all, Lynn

PS. Dr. Irene. Dan doesn't get the tough stuff like the coffee table in the shower until he's had 9 months to conceive of a plan and give birth to it. Then....... and only then do I resort to devious tactics. :) I love lobster ^_^ Me-ow!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

....continued. Dan just got the lawn umbrella unstuck and now it's thawing in his shower! If it's there 9 months from now I'm going to take drastic action. Hugs Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

Dear Group, Lynn again,

To Becky,

What a great post, very insightful. I can really relate to what you said about us trying to fix them. The fine line between therapist and spouse. I've found with Dan that he would share things with me, that he wouldn't with our former therapist. (We are going to a new lady, if we can catch up with her, and aren't going back to the old one or her group).

Somewhere in my hurry I got so that I felt I knew exactly what was wrong with HIM and that if I could only fix it we would have no more problems. Made it sound like I had /have none. What has really helped me here is the rest of you. Like a sounding board and then I go back and read and re read and then listen to what Doc and Trubble have to say and I might have come up with the point she is trying to get across.

So, very soon I will try and get a post about me and my childhood. Just me.

My next thought and I think this is a biggie. Remember though that I am a plunge in first and then check if the water's too cold, but I think we have to take the chance to get the guys here. We can get as well as we want and understand them as best we can, yet we are a team. I didn't feel we had anything to lose by showing this site to Dan and then I left him alone. Remember......I wasn't talking to him. I find this on Dr. Irene's Working it Out site. It is for couples working it out and Dan is the only male signed up. I didn't get into this to work it out alone. In fact I was pleasantly surprised at his awakening and awareness. We still had some rough times and I'm sure we will, but at least he's into this, too.

Dr. Irene talks about our culture and how men are taught and I want to know who wrote that book of rules. Like G, it's OK to tell it and then let the chips fall, so to speak. That's what I like so much about Dr. Irene. She tells it like it is, but then says "it's ok."

I think what I'm trying to suggest, give your H the chance to be the man you thought he was when you met and married him. Dan and I had a pretty good 5 years. The last 5 weren't ALL bad, but we kept running in circles. We got into a time warp and couldn't see our way out and it kept going down hill. It felt really yukky!!! We have gotten into some conversations the last month that 3 months ago would have had us screeching at each other.

That has to be because we're both here. I'm not a big one on secrets anyhow, and I figured what the heck. I was going to leave him anyhow.

Same AK and AngryGirl,

If we give them the chance this might be helpful to all of us. Dan can read your posts and get glimmers of our relationship and I think he feels like he isn't the only one being picked on.

Speaking of Edgar Cayce, my mother use to read him and I still have all her books. One other one that Dan read and I think it helped was The Power of Positive Thinking.

When he applied for the bossing job he has he couldn't believe he'd get it. I couldn't believe he wouldn't! He came home one day and told me he was accepted and I simply said, "Well, of course you were." He had all of the qualifications, training, know how and all the other stuff so I couldn't believe he thought they would bring in someone else.

Keep up the good work all of you. And I think I will go over my childhood a couple more times. Let Dan work on his. Same with Viet Nam and I have a maybe on this. Why not put it on his computer and then it's there to read like this site. I never had much luck with a journal or diary as I never go back and read it. I do here.

Maybe, Dr. Irene, there is a thought. Someone should get a web site like this for Viet Nam Vets. What are you doing in your spare time? :) Ok Dan, then how about you?????

As for changing the name of abuse to something else, I vote no. It's like a root canal to me. By any other name, it is the same.

Ah, the Sunday Stream Of Consciousness. Ready to plunge into another week of health, insight and recovery.

Thanks Doc and Trubble, is there room in that pond for a few fresh salmon? You bet!

Love, prayers and Luck to All, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and cat box family,

I do think of us as family now, an extended one to be sure but we seem to communicate about our problems the way a family does, with a person and cat (Dr Irene and Trubble) to act as mediators.

Dr Irene, the umbrella in my shower/tub will be there until it dries out, of course Lynn said nine months, well that's how long winter usually lasts so I'd be safe leaving it there until Spring. Ha, Ha. Seriously, we have been posting and sitting on the edge of our seats for your input as though our very lives depended on it, and personally, our lives have been better for them, thank you.

Trubble, I'm really not a good judge of a good looking man but if you say white with greybrown stripes, I'll settle for that.

To All,

I have read page 3 with the comments from Dr Irene and Trubble, S A L M O N, but I want to go back and reread them. Some of the comments about my mothers', Lynns' and my boundaries are so on the mark. I also have to thank Lynn, for her support when I applied and got this job that I now have, I really did have doubts about it even though she told me, as did my boss and others at work, that I had a better chance than most.

We have been watching Brian Dennehy movies, just to get lost in the make believe world for the last couple of days. I have really been wrung out after posting about my childhood that it's nice to vacation once in a while, even if it's at home.

I am going to interject a little story about my dad here because I've written about my mother and he deserves his break. My younger brother, the one with DD, and I had pups when we were around 1 and 5 respectively, and one of them bit my brother, my dad was going to find out which one, so he put food out and stuck his hand in the dishes, my dog bit him, so it was my dog that got destroyed. To this day, I feel that that was not the proper way of testing, any dog will bite when protecting their food. I was crying and pleading with him not to kill my dog, I was very sad and also I resented the other dog and also my brother because I just knew that my dog didn't bite him (my brother). My dad said, that it was a good lesson on understanding that we sometimes lose something which we care about. I learned the lesson well. I wrote in an earlier post about my grandmother When she died, I was so understanding, I called the Dr every name in the book, even told my mother that she could take her God (underlined) and put him where the sun doesn't shine. I think that day was one of the few days where I allowed my anger free rein, and I hope that the emotional outburst will be taken with a grain of salt by the man upstairs. I think back on that day now, and really feel that the Great Spirit was testing my beliefs.

I have to put in here that she died after I had come back from VN, and I was into my drinking stage at the time, although I was sober when I said this. She was also the only on whom seemed to understand about my drinking and once told my uncle to leave me alone that I knew what I was doing. I really didn't, but she had faith in me.

I hope that this isn't too depressing for you as right now, I'm becoming very emotional so I am going to sign off until my next post. This is good Dan. It's good to own this painful stuff. Now you can deal with it.

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

Sorry about the double posting. It said Dr. Irene is too busy to use right now, but sometimes they go in anyhow.

Dan Wow! Never heard that one before. Don't worry about doubles or triples or whatever...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dar Dr Irene, Trubble and cat box family,

Sorry about that, I thought that I had all the grieving over my grandmother over with, I guess, there are times when it wallops you unexpectedly and this last post was one of them.

While I was being emotional, crying, two of the cats started fighting, knocking over dishes, the dogs came up, one barking the other licking my face and the smoke alarm went off. Nothing serious, it does that whenever the oven is being used.

Anyway, back to what I was trying to get to when I had to stop.

Becky, your H seems to be afraid that if he shows any weakness, you'll think less of him, thus the statement about others not doing whatever the proper way. I can't say about his not wanting or hiring someone to work around the house. I asked Lynn once if she was trying to make me look a fool when she hired somebody to finish a job that I didn't get to. Maybe if you tried a little eyelid flutter he would consent to getting someone to do this. A high school student, college student or someone who is out of work and would really appreciate the work. Here they have a day laborer list at the unemployment office, for just those type of people.

Hugs and pleasant thoughts to all.

Trubble, I didn't stockpile the salmon, I haven't even gone looking for them yet. :(

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Sunday evening and while eating we re read #3. Thanks Doc. Big big one I think. About Dan and his grandmother. I was sitting on his lap not saying anything (see, I have someone else to hear me, so I don't have to talk to Dan all the time) and he wondered why his grandmother's death affected him so bad now? Shhhhhhhhhhh Let him figure it out? I wasn't that smart, Trubble, but as he reread # 3 he figured it out for himself and then we went "OH"

Dear Becky,

I'm simply worried about us in the cat box having enough cyber space. Let the others take care of their own.....^_^ They are welcome if they want to join our cyber space anyway.

Dr. Irene,

As for first names, last names, I told you I have no imagination. If we used someone else's name I would have forgotten it was me. We did this in our old therapy. She (the therapist) would ask me to talk to Dan like she wasn't there. I couldn't, as she was there! Sooooo Black and White. Anyhow with F____stein you can all use your imaginations and call us the Frankensteins'. And there is snow on the slopes of Transylvania, with an umbrella in our shower. There, now nobody will ID us. I love it!

Dear Trubble and AK,

What do you mean write a book? This is a book! And remember guys, I like happy endings, so I think I'll write myself one. We're only on Chapter 4 now, so I have a few plots and sub plots to untangle before we ride off into the sunset. Can't beat the cast of characters, tho...

Now the big one. Am I right Dr. Irene? Dan wanted me mad about the turkey, so didn't let up until I got mad? We are both here reading this tonight and did he need to beat himself up Dan: Don't ever beat yourself up again! When you notice you are doing it, just STOP! Kick yourself out of beat up mode. about ruining the dinner and then worked and worked until he found a way to trip my trigger about it (which I let him) and then said, "see I did ruin your dinner!"

Well Trubble, just wait for the Happy Ending and we'll sail off to Alaska and get you fresh everything.

Now when and where is this reunion scheduled? Alaska? Lots of Salmon there...

Love to All, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and Cat Box Family,

I was sitting here pondering, wondering, and just looking at myself as Dan.

I was wondering why posting about my grandmother would affect me the way that it did this afternoon as I thought that I had got that all out of my system. During dinner, Lynn and I re read the comments from Dr Irene on #3, and I think that I figured it out. It was your comment at the end about my grandmother teaching me love, I'm paraphrasing here. This is very true as she was the only one who seemed to accept me for me, not someone who could clean the house, babysit, or do any of the other odd little jobs which needed to be done. Grandma "saved" you, emotionally. Otherwise, you would not have had a role model for love.

I remember spending a couple of weeks a summer with her and of course I had my chores, but she let me be a kid. There were always milk and cookies when the chores were done or when I came in from playing.

The thing which I still don't really understand is why, I don't remember my real young childhood, as I know that I had people who cared for me other than my parents. Typically, when people don't remember childhood, it was not a good childhood. My aunt with scoliosis (sp), my godparents, who lived downstairs, and my oldest half sister. A funny story concerning my aunt, she was sleeping and I wanted her to play with me - so I got mad at her for sleeping and was going to wake her up. With a hammer. She woke up just as I was raising it over my head to swing it down. Every time that she has told me this story she laughs, Thanks to the Great Spirit for waking her, because I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had succeeded, then or now. I know that there is no hard feelings on her part, and she has said that I am her favorite nephew. You have to wonder what type of role modeling you received in your house to come up with such an inventive way of waking her! Somebody taught you this stuff kiddo. My godparents are deceased now, but they watched over me like a mother hen with her chicks. My godmother would let me wipe out her ashtrays with her doilies and laugh about how clean I kept them. This is another story told to me by my godparents when I was a little older. I think that from these little tidbits that I didn't have a really bad youngsterhood. (Between 1 and 5) when we moved to another neighborhood. And of course my grandmother.

I don't have the knowledge to decipher this but I wonder if the reason that I blocked out that time in my life is because the other time outshined it and keeps them locked up.

It seems that I had some very caring people in my life, but the memories that are in the forefront are those which have become issues keeping me from my Self. It's easy to feel angry and throw the baby out with the bathwater. More likely, my guess is that despite the love and the warmth you did get, you also got a lot of junk and abuse from others. So, it was not all in all such a wonderful time. Don't forget, little kids are still emotionally smart. Stuff hurts them since they haven't yet learned to turn the pain off and detach from the Self.

I have said how I can see myself in some of the posts from AK, Becky, AngryGirl and even jealousy for as little as she has posted. I can also see me in Gs' site, probably more so as I know that inner shame can produce feelings of insecurity, rage, guilt, in some cases superiority, and all the other locked emotions associated with being an abuser.

I wish all happiness in their endeavors, hugs to you all and to G a thanks for putting down exactly what makes an abuser.

Dr Irene, I appreciate all that you are guiding me to do.

Trubble, I'm sorry about getting your color wrong, but I had to re read in order to know that. It's the same difference as chicken mixed with rice and S A L M O N. Yeah!

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

I think this one is for you. Hi guys, this is Lynn. Got me a thinking ........passive-aggressive behavior. Dan and I both smoke and I know accidents happen, I'm not talking one or two in this instance. We have a Nintendo game attached to the TV in the bedroom and we use to spend a lot of time in there. Dan would light a cigarette and it would fall on the floor and burn a hole in the rug, or on the table cover. A few in the quilt. I went the rounds on this one too and lost, but I'm not talking one or two, there are about 17 burn holes there. Then we got new carpet in his bathroom. There is an ashtray in the bathroom. He put a lit cigarette on the edge of the sink and it fell on the floor and burned a hole while he was in the shower.

I had Dan make me one of those cutsie ironing boards with a step ladder and then the top is a stool and the underneath is the back of the stool. I upholstered this and had the top to match, we both put quite a bit of work into it. One morning I got up and must have been going to iron, as I moved an ashtray off the top and there was a burn hole in it underneath the ashtray. The butt had been picked up. I think I said, "Dan?" He acted surprised and told me he was sorry, accidents happen and that he didn't know when he could have done it. I cried over that one.

I dropped it (see, I guess I knew some disengage) and just said H___ with you, if you want to burn the house down, do so, etc. Until now I have forgotten about it and it's not an issue now. I'll bet there are a few more I've forgotten and I just mentioned this to help me understand passive aggression. This again wasn't about me, was it? For Dan, it was about Dan. For you, your pain was about you.

All I came up with in my mind was that I didn't think he was showing much respect for me or my things. No...

Ok, just thinking aloud, I do know that over the last few years I've become more and more "casual" with my housework. That's my word for the place is a plain mess!

Thanks and I think I'm right here, too. He is making quite an effort, isn't he? I've been very careful not to rehash his posts with him. I am not his therapist. I can see where one post leads to another and yet another. And by this I don't just mean ours. He laughs at Becky's husband and thinks they sound like brothers. Dan is doing a great job. All his stuff is sincere. So are you.

Another thing with us. Our 9 month rule works good here, because until 9 (or thereabouts) months are up I don't get to mention IT. If after 9 months she hasn't delivered, then I am allowed to get creative. Some of his things would get me so mad I could scream. He has the ability to crawl over something big to get into the kitchen and then ask me if I've seen it. We sat down years ago and tried to come up with a reasonable compromise and he figured a couple of months. That's when I asked if 9 would do. I have to abide by the rules, too. We have an extra bathtub in the middle room. It's a super dooper whirlpool. But I can not and will not make any comments about this until ............ These we can pretty much laugh at.

Thank you again Dr. Irene, Kitties and Trubble. Loco doesn't even get a meow today. He's done nothing except bleat for Pounce.

Hope it worked out good Becky,

Loves and Prayers and Hugs, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean we laugh AT at your Hubby, we laugh at the similarities between the things they both do around the house.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

Dear AK, Becky AngryGirl, Doc and Trubble,

What I've found with Dan working and reading this site with me, is we both made mistakes. He may have started it, but that isn't the point. I kept it going. OUR first and only interest now is working together so we can have a better relationship with each other. Excellent.

We do genuinely love each other, yet he realized and I realized we have hurt each other. This had to stop. Now we have a genuine commitment not to do this anymore. We have become much more aware of things we were doing to each other and it wasn't getting us one step closer to our goal to a "Happy old age" Him telling me I should be happy didn't make me fell happy. I turned this into something strange and then he'd do dishes or something to make me happier. The more Dan can come to recognize and accept his feelings, the less he'll have to rely on what he thinks he "has" to do to make you happy. He's getting there. This is a big one by the way for the angry person. HUGE.

Couldn't be done, Happiness comes from within us, I believe. Dan thought he was happy, too. Dishes done, house clean and sex whenever. Well, right now the sink is full of dirty dishes, the house is a mess, and we are closer and more caring about each other than we have been in 5 years.

Thus far this has been real hard emotionally on both of us. Yet compared to those 5 years these are a dream.

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Hi guys.

I think my H "Steve" has posted to David's section. He's obviously read some of my stuff and feels like I was being dishonest. I'm just glad that he's here though and starting some dialogue - send him your constructive, positive thoughts, okay?

thanks

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

I figured that was him. Hi Steve, welcome. We do want to hear your side. I'm glad you joined us.

Lynn Yeah, welcome.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Dan,

Last night when you were posting and telling of the smoke alarm going off, you told me you thought of adding, "It's just Lynn cooking again, ha, ha, ha."

You didn't. I'm glad for that. I didn't think it was funny.

My response was wrong to you, too. I said, "then tell them that my thermometer hasn't been fixed!"

I should have said, I don't like it when you joke about my cooking like that.

Your response, please........

Love, Lynn Humor is wonderful; in its time and place.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Lynn - AK here.

I my ex-boyfriend who lived a long distance away used to say: I must drive here because I like you; it's certainly not for your cooking! But I actually thought that was funny too, because I'm really not a good cook.

What buttons of *yours* is Dan pushing here? (said along with a hug) AK

I have a feeling that once they solidify their relationship and Lynn feels a real partnership with Dan, joking around will be less of a problem. She's just a bit sore from what she perceives as put downs.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

Thanks, and hugs back. I was just reading what Steve and you wrote at Buddha.

My buttons, I don't' know? It felt yukky when he said it, I retaliated with one back and I want to nip this in the bud NOW. GOOD!

Maybe I do know. Dan thinks some things are jokes that I feel hurt me. When I'm singing he use to say, "What did you do with the money your mother gave you for singing lessons." I can't carry a tune in a bucket, yet that has never stopped me from singing.

That's why I addressed this to him. I think. I want this safely on Dr. Irene and not start a brawl. I think we've made too much progress.

Need to know what to say, and I have to come up with them quicker. Practice makes perfect.

Love the criticism and questions. thanks, If I didn't want to know I wouldn't have asked.

I am glad you are here. You, too, Steve.

Thanks friend and hugs back, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Lynn

It sounds like what you are saying is that the cooking comment brings up a yukky pattern of other comments that have been said. This means it's not about the cooking one specifically, but about a general feeling of being disrespected.

Am I right?

Since you are both working on this stuff, you can not only think about your own response, but you can find out Dan's real intention behind the comment too.

Your response to him, Lynn was a defensive one.. right? :)

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

By the way, the singing comment would bother me too.

I think everyone should sing.

And I think any kind of singing is beautiful when it's done out of joy.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

Thanks, I just got out of the tub. Yea, I can cook, no I can't sing, but I came from a family where if you couldn't say something nice you shut up.

Yep, and then I said that if he would have fixed the thermostat the smoke alarm wouldn't be going off when I cooked. Two wrongs. I recognized that today and a lot in the past twelve years things lie this have happened.

I'm glad I didn't bring it up to him though, these go like, well, you know I like your cooking, it was only a joke.

No biggie. I just want us to get it out and over with.

Best thing about grandchildren, cats and dogs. With my magic wand they think I sing better than Bette and I know all the words. :)

I do wish you and Steve the best, truly. Isn't it great he jumped in?

Love and Prayers and Lots of Song, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

I think you are great! You have me thinking. Generally, things go like this. If I ask Dan for a couple of dollars and then reach for them, he pulls them back. He use to go to light my cigarette and then when I tried to inhale he'd pull the lighter back. I don't know if I thought of this as disrespect. I actually thought, "How teenage" and would reply something like up yours and then not accept the light or the money. Then he'd try and kid me out of it. My replies are not appropriate either. I want us to end this. The big one on disrespect was the cigarettes burning on the floor and furniture. As soon as I told him to burn the house down he quit. I just don't understand actions like these. It's a level of relating that is comfortable for an angry person. He meant well, but there is hostility in it. Now, he can work on doing otherwise. Yippeee!

I don't have the cure, but I can analyze it. It is hard to get a plain thank you out of Dan or members of his family. Even if I know they really like it. I just don't think they learned to be kind or gracious. We work on this lots between us.

Not funny answers, too. Did you get the check mailed gets answered no when in fact he did. Or some such. He has learned here "Lynn has no sense of humor so don't pull this stuff on me."

Ok, I better quit. I don't want to get mad at him again :)

Sunday Stream of Consciousness on Monday. Better than football, and I love football.

Still singing, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Lynn here, Rural living. I just went down and picked up our Patricia Evans book. I ordered #2.

Take care guys, Talk to you later, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

This may be a long one, don't know.....

Autobiography. First off I was adopted by parents who had been married for 17 years. They had no other living children. 2 boys died before my birth. I was very much wanted and "chosen" as when my sister arrived 3 /2 years later I was told they were stuck with her and had to keep her, I was chosen. In retrospect I think they may have gone a little overboard on this :)

I had a real happy childhood. I can remember lots of great times, lots of love and lots of caring from my grandmother (other 3 grandparents died before I was born), aunts, uncles and great aunts and uncles.

I've said before that my dad was a bully, but I don't recall any of this before 6th grade or age 12 and they don't coincide as I was in 7th and 8th grade at age 12, but something there changed things with my parents. (I have always thought of them as my parents. When I turned 50 I requested and got a copy of my original birth certificate, but never with the intention of finding these folks. I do genealogy and it seemed important at the time to get these papers in the event some future genealogist wanted to peruse this. I also think, "What if I look these people up and don't like them. Will I be stuck with them?" I don't feel the meeting with these people will/would have any influence on my life i.e.. Make it all better, so it is not important to me). I probably explained this in too great of detail, but only because I get people who suggest that I should want to know. I don't. I jokingly say that it would extend my Christmas present budget way out of whack.

So at about the 6th grade age 12 level I've mentioned what went on with my parents. My mother did "make" my father became a Catholic. I have to explain my mom a bit here. Later in life a Catholic Priest in our hometown was arrested and convicted for sodomizing young boys under his care. My mom was adamant that he couldn't have done that as he was a "Catholic." I didn't correct her and tell her what I knew of some people, not only Catholics. I thought it was really neat that she had such faith that she truly believed. She was your role model; taught you to close your eyes in denial for people you loved.

We never had anything that could even be construed as sexual in my up bringing. We were a family with /of women and this included a neighbor girl who was being raised by her father and grandmother. She spent a lot of time at our house.

Anyhow, after I was in my latter years of high school, my mother bought a business and was very successful. I still had a closeness with my dad. I can remember years of playing one game of Scrabble with him every night. He and my mom didn't seem to do a lot together then. This may be thinking from now.

Before I graduated High School I decided I wanted to join the Peace Corps. I mentioned that before. My mom said to me, "Honey, Daddy and I talked it over and we don't think you should. It's a really big step, etc., etc. I didn't, and instead eloped with my boyfriend the following month.

I do understand now the thinking of their little girl in Peru or somewhere. I finally got over it. In retrospect on this one though, I would have been a great Peace Corpsian. Yes!

Anyhow, I was a virgin, nice girls didn't, remember? Married the kid's dad and had 3 kids. (See, some good came out of it). Divorced him and with a bunch of other stuff in between, here I am.

What I think as an adult, I didn't think this then, is: if I were abused at all I was abused by the lack of any knowledge of anything bad in the world. I really thought that you grew up, stayed a virgin, married, had children, went to Church on Sunday's and lived happily ever after. It doesn't seem you were abused, but mom was a codependent who forgave transgressions - and dad was a bully. You loved your dad and married him so to speak, taking on a role like your mom. Mom taught you to live in denial and la la land.

About the 6th grade age 12 time I think my dad lost "control" and the got bullyish. I had to have seen this, but I didn't recognize it and I don't recall a lot of this aimed my direction. It was between he and my mom. When he really got bullyish with me was when my mom died. This was three months after my husband died. Your model for marriage was based on dad bullying mom. He was bullying her all along, promise. It didn't start when you were 12, just became more pronounced.

I've gone into what I have tried and done and I think he just needs to feel in control of some part of his life. Since I've met Dan and moved, I guess he does this to my sister.

Over simplified maybe, but that's enough for this chapter Trubble. Have at me, I'm ready..... Salmon First!

A bunch of Hugs, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Oh. oh, Lynn back,

Remember the puppy that died? Later my new puppy was hit by a car and got a broken leg. I was adamant on this one. I stood in the front seat looking over at my mom with the dog as dad drove us to the vet. I wasn't going to allow another swaperoo, I guess. The vet took the dog in, fixed the broken leg, then allowed me to go see her and then when I got her home I reinspected the cast, just to be sure. It was my dog.

I also use to tell people my name and that I "was from New York." This at about age 3.

I'm sure more will flow......Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Good evening everyone,

To Lynn, I'm not suggesting another word for abuse, just another for "victim." I guess I dislike it because it implies helplessness. I suppose that in a way it does fit, because none of us was looking for or expecting this treatment, despite the red flags most of us recognize were there with our wonderful 20/20 hindsight.

Just for the record, I hate "victim" and "abuser" too. Ugh!

I'm very tired, so won't say much this time. He and I had a couple of tense moments tonight, but he did back off and listen to me, and SEEMED to accept that I was NOT attacking him, just expressing my feelings, and talking about my preferences (yes, kitchen cabinets again!--what a mess to come home to after working all day). I need to thank him for doing that: getting his defensiveness under control.

About having him come here--my gut says no way! At least not now! I don't think he's ready. If he expressed an interest, I'd be scared to death, but I suppose I'd have to let him. But he knows nothing about the cat box, and I'm not telling him right now.

By the way, how can Dan be the only guy signed up for a couples list? Is he the only guy who posts? Are the others just lurking, maybe? Seems odd to me. I joined the God Help Us list, but it's not very active. I'm sort of disappointed. I did write once, and got several very supportive replies, for which I'm grateful, but there doesn't seem to be regular activity.

I'm going to check the message boards, then crawl into bed early. It's chilly and damp here today, and I think it seeped into my bones!

Love to all, and welcome Steve!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

] ]

Dear Becky,

I hear ya, there's nothing colder than cold bones. I'm glad you are Ok. After my last two posts Dan and I are sitting here talking. With LOCO curled up on his lap. All is well, and yes, Dan is the only one who posted there and I think is the only male signed up. Now he tends to do most of his posting here. It's always been hard to get the guys posting. I think women are more socialized to do this type of expressive stuff.

Good luck to you. Stay in charge, and yes Steve and AK, what have you got to loose? Welcome aboard. Just so he doesn't think he jumped aboard the Titanic!

Get a good rest. Did you see how I "blew it?" We have to keep it up until it becomes natural, right.

Love and Prayers, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Hello All,

First off, I need to apologize to Lynn for my remark yesterday, I slipped back but that really isn't an excuse. I don't have any idea why I said that. Hey, you're gonna slip; new habits take time!

We could have easily gotten back into our old stuff of I said this, so you retaliated by saying that, and I'm glad that we never. Very Glad.

As Lynn just posted to Becky, we have been sitting here talking about animals, vets , my daughter, my emergency room experiences and her dog, her children and Drs' and hospitals and my mother, whom we talked about rationally, without rancor but with some puzzlement.

After we moved from our hometown, Lynn invited her over for Thanksgiving and she didn't even give an answer one way or another, she didn't show. The following Mothers Day, we were all at a brother and sister-in-laws house for dinner, she (Mother) acted very cold toward us, and as she was leaving, she told Lynn to tell me Thanks for the earrings, which we had given her, Lynn said 'Tell him yourself, he's right there." I was sitting on the couch, she went out in a bigger huff. We were just trying to remember why, no clue. Lynn made me move?! She then told the sister-in-law that if she ever invited us to another dinner, she would not sit at the table with us, she would go out to her trailer.

It was the following August that she claimed that Lynn was rude to her after bringing all the people over for Lynn to cook for. Lynn didn't have to cook for them, but did it because she wanted to.

I have to admit, that I did tease Lynn about a lot of things, thinking that they were funny, not realizing that they made her feel yucky. Right. This was a reasonable way of connecting with her from your point of view. I now know that she feels that way, and will not do them again. Practical jokes are only funny to the person that is doing them.

I enjoyed reading her autobiography, it verifies that there are some parents out there who really do care for their children. Lots of them! Besides us. This includes the cat box family.

Speaking of children, I think that I told you that I went 360 degrees while raising my daughter than how I was raised, and even this is a form of abuse. Lynn and I have discussed this also, especially when she calls wanting and expecting something from us.

She was an only child so she got about everything that she wanted, we very seldom said no. If one of us, her mother or me, said no , she went to the other until she got her wish or way. Instead of uniting, we would just tell her not to do it again, but she would. This went on for about 8 years, until we wised up. When she had her first daughter, I was so glad to see her, thanks to Lynn as she told me to call her, that I never said anything about having to find out about the baby from a relative, or anything about the baby's' father. I feel that by giving in to her, even if I do it now, which doesn't happen like it did, is a form of abuse. She had to be institutionalized for awhile a few years back, and decided not to eat. I was informed of this by her doctor, and signed some papers giving them the right to feed her anyway they could. She resented this, as I was interfering in her life. Your kid is the only one who can get her life together. I hope she does.

Lynn, I don't know if I have told you but there are many events which have transpired in our time together, that I appreciate your helping me with.

We were also talking about my emergency room experiences, and one which we have talked about before is my appendectomy. My mother sent me to the hospital by myself in a cab. I was around 9 years old at the time. WHAT? 9 is a very significant year in my life, as that is really when I had to start acting like an adult more or less. I was scared, sick and hurting. When I woke up, after the surgery, the nurses would tell me what a brave little man I was, I was very proud of myself for being mature enough to go to the hospital alone. The pain was gone, and I was no longer sick. I know that it was an emergency, but I still don't know why she didn't have one of the neighbors watch my siblings and take me herself. She has never even offered a reason, other than she knew that I could do it myself. Because her agenda was to raise you to take care of her... One of the few times that she offered me any type of compliment.

Well enough for tonight, I would like to welcome Steve and thank you all for listening

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Hi all.

I'm glad that Steve found this site.

I hope he will continue to "jump in" as Lynn says.

I asked him if he read just the Buddha section and he said no, he read the "whole damn thing" (said with a smile). He says he feels happy in a strange sort of way. (Gee maybe, if he starts posting, he will speak for himself, rather than through my well-meaning, but possibly inaccurate interpretations.... :)

He said that I talked about him way more than I talked about me, which is true. He thinks I made him out to be the "bad guy" which I probably did in many of my posts. Of course. That's normal.

He accepts that I needed to do this. Part of me keeps waiting for the "consequences", but this is just part of a pattern that I expect to happen, and things are changing including these patterns.

We had a little discussion about Dr. I's initial post re: Xmas, and traditions. We disagree about what her post really means to both of us as a couple.

My point is that I have a basic bottom line feeling that in my life I want to have family celebrations that include my spouse (and they don't have to be a particular way, nor do they have to be traditional). I have lived without these for the past 4 years and I don't look forward to a lifetime without them. He (I think) feels that I can still adapt to his non-celebratory approach to traditions. I've tried this and I feel that I want more than this from a relationship. I'm not saying I'm "right" and he's "wrong", just that it's not right for me. This is a big issue. We broke up just after Valentine's Day because I wanted to have a glass of wine and light a candle and he said "you can" and went to watch the hockey game. I was very unhappy about this and he chose to move out as a result. This is not a fight about traditions. This is a power struggle and the topic you two have chosen are your traditions. Neither of you is willing to budge I see.

He also said that I didn't talk much about what I've done wrong. Yes, I've done some things wrong. I've sworn at him angrily instead of pausing when I knew I had reached my "emotional limit" (I still think he provoked this, but this is my point of view). I unplugged his headphone speakers once when I felt he was purposely "tuning me out". Gee what else... I told him I could "just kill him" once.. I also have a bad habit of getting offended when he tries to give me technical instructions. This is because I feel like he is thinking I'm stupid, which I know at times is not at all the case. And worst of all, I could not accept his boundaries around how much (or should I say little) he wanted me around the kids for the first 3 years, and his wishes not to celebrate family or certain social events. I realize that had I accepted these boundaries, I could not have committed to a permanent relationship with him, and since that was what I wanted, I instead rallied for change for those things I could not accept. Well, I've learned something from that, and it was still worth the experience. We have created a unique creative business together and I love to work with him. And it's not too late to start at the beginning again... basically that's what we have to do, I think. To decide what each of us really want from a relationship and negotiate whether it's possible for both of us to have a healthy, happy outcome.

Dr Irene asked this question: If it wasn't for the single, alone, kid, and mom and dad stuff, would you be with him?

The "mom and dad stuff" makes this relationship more difficult if anything, the kid stuff I could probably live without especially if I had never met nor bonded with his kids. That's not the case anymore, because I do know them and care about them. The single, alone part - I have lived this way for most of my life, so yes I could do it again. So in short the answer is would I still be with him without my "stuff" (my fears)? - yes. If we could take away some of the layers of yuk, then for sure. Steve has very special talents. A friend of his commented to me once that he's amazingly talented and smart - near-genius or maybe just plain genius. He is an incredible artist, excellent writer, absorbs technical information at an unbelievably quick rate. He is imaginative, funny, thoughtful, conscientious, highly skilled and a hard worker. He also loves you. That's why he's so mad at me and my advice to distance and why he is around - despite his need to let us know his presence is kind of grudging. He doesn't know how else to express his caring other than how he's doing it right now. That's all fine; so he's a little defensive. I'm impressed by the fact that he found AK, he is here, he's been here, and he's made his presence known - even though he won't take responsibility for that one. So once again: Welcome aboard Steve! We're all glad you're here.

Having said this, there are some serious problems in the relationship which make it very unstable and unhealthy. If there is a way to work things out so that we are both getting our needs met in the relationship and if there is hope for a brighter future together, I will most definitely stick it out. On the other hand, should we find that our "bottom line" needs just don't match then I will have to be honest and accept that we need to let each other go. Trust me: these issues are more about your power struggle than about your bottom lines. I think AK you don't want to give in because you've had to give in to so many other ones like kids, family, etc. Can't blame you, but if both of you stay stuck in your respective spaces, you will get nowhere.

These are the issues that remain to be seen.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

AK wrote:

>> We broke up just after Valentine's Day because I wanted to have a glass of wine and light a candle and he said "you can" and went to watch the hockey game. I was very unhappy about this and he chose to move out as a result. <<

It's stuff like this (she appears to have inserted similar "incomplete/inaccurate" comments throughout this website) that make me really worry about the advice she will get.

Analyzing her above paragraph, it may appear that her husband likes hockey more than he likes his wife.

The rest of the same post by her (and most of her other posts) contains too many errors and omissions for me to respond to at this time. In fact, I don't wish to respond to them at all.

Let me just say this:

As David said, every story has 2 sides (or more).

AK was raised in a family where her father never paid any attention to her and her mother wouldn't let her touch anything in the kitchen. I'm not trying to be mean here. This is just the truth.

So, when you all read her posts, perhaps you can keep this in mind. I think you may see a link. Anyway, I don't want to "compete" with her here, which I feel is starting to happen. AK - go for it. I know you will. You're not competing so please stop making excuses. Yes, AK has issues she has to fix. Yes, her posts are one-sided. Yes, lots of stuff. But what about you Steve? How does it facilitate your obvious goal - to fix things with your lady - when you are too defensive (i.e., scared) to look at your own stuff? Why shoot yourself in the foot? For the sake of ego? Is it worth it?

I am personally inviting you to stick around, whether or not you choose to post, although I hope you will. Why? Because I'm a nut with a mission in life: to assist others in being the best they can be. It makes me feel good. I'd like to see you feel good. That's all.

I'm finished here. Nice place, nice people. Take care all.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

Lynn here, thanks about the nice place, nice people. Yes I think we are. I hope you keep scanning, though. There are two sides to every story. Tell us yours. I did this. Dan said this, Dan said that, His mother did this. Down to the nitty gritty, it's what we were doing to each other. We caught ourselves the other night over the smoke alarm. We're learning new tricks. Lynn

Dear Ak,

Boy oh boy, do I hear you loud and clear. I was waiting for the "consequences." I got so I could predict when we would get into one of these. Dan, too, can tune me out. Just like he reaches over and turns the volume "button" down on my nose and "doesn't hear a thing" (Past tense, we're learning).

As for I could kill you! Oh Boy. I have a sweet little 86 year old neighbor whose husband died 20 years ago. She adored him, but confesses there were times she would have killed him if she had something in her hands. If she said something he didn't like he would run his hand in circles on his knee and whistle. No Dr. Irene so she use to cry.

Doesn't the telling us what to do get to us? I think that is a man thing. Dan has gotten better at not doing this.

Speaking of Dan, he had "One of his dreams last night." It's his story and I'll let him tell it. When he used to get these I would gently wake him telling him it was me and then hold and comfort him. I did last night. He wasn't actually screaming (he has) just loud moaning.

Keep with us AK. Maybe Steve will keep up with our trials and tribulations. I hope so. Just my two bits worth, but he does sound like a nice guy. I can see why you care for him. Me too.

Love and Prayers, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Sending a hug to nine year old Dan, who had to take himself to the hospital!

(((((Hugs))))

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Hi all.

Steve No I don't think you like hockey more than his wife and that's not what I was saying. I just don't think you understand me that much.

It was never my intention to "compete". That's how *you* are reading this. Yep. Clear to most.

But that explains your comment about my mom and dad. I guess you feel insulted by what I've said about your family so this is way to "get me back". What were you constructively wanting to achieve by saying this:

"AK was raised in a family where her father never paid any attention to her and her mother wouldn't let her touch anything in the kitchen. I'm not trying to be mean here. This is just the truth. So, when you all read her posts, perhaps you can keep this in mind."

What are they supposed to keep "in mind"? That AK (for reasons mentioned above) isn't stable enough to have a reasonable point of view? I think this statement was said with the intention to "hurt back" in what you think is a competition. Yep.

I would be really interested in knowing your true intent when you posted that line.

I'm sorry that you're hurting and that you don't feel you can trust me, as you have mentioned to me. But this is nothing new. You said there was a time when you did trust me, but I don't know if I believe that. I don't know what has made me untrustable in your eyes. But I can't worry about that right now. I have to focus on fixing my own stuff. Yes.

By the way - my Mom *is* "kitchen possessive", a trait that she took on from her own mother. This is her area of control - she doesn't like others cooking or generally messing things up there. Still, I don't know what purpose it serves to bring that up. You didn't mention it in context to anything else. Don't get defensive AK.

As for "her father never paid any attention to her" - there is some truth to that as well, but he has his own story. He always felt ultra-responsible for his family's financial needs. He stayed in a job he didn't like "for the family's sake". He had a heart attack when he was 45 because I think he stuffed so much of his unhappiness in. And emotionally he wasn't there a lot of the time. I forgive him for this and he has made up for it in many other ways. He has given me much financial support over the years and is there in a flash when something needs doing around the house. He tries to be there now, even if he wasn't then. Again, Steve, where is the context for this statement? Ditto. Don't defend.

And by the way, if I sound angry, it's because I am. AK You reacted; you let Steve push your buttons. Work on that since engaging only adds insult to injury - and gives Steve room to throw his hands up in the air and exit like he can't win, further justifying his position.

Steve loves you and he's trying to meet you on your terms, but he's too stuck in his black hole these days. He is very sensitive to any type of "criticism" right now. So sensitive in fact that he looks for it, creating a self-fulfilling prophesy: he'll find or create it. This hurts him a lot. He doesn't know what to do with his pain, nor does he know how to make you feel OK towards him, which is what he really wants. When he's frustrated, he dumps on you since he really, really does not see his contribution one bit.

Again: I'm glad Steve is/has been around. Hope he stays.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Lynn

Despite my last post, Steve *is* a nice guy. We know that. He just is good at pushing your buttons. And you let him.

I would just like it if we could get to a point where we could constructively deal with our problems. So would he! Betcha.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Dear AK,

Hi, this is Lynn. I don't blame you for being angry. Even if he is a nice guy. I could get pretty angry at Dan, too. Probably still will. Hugs to you,

And Becky, how nice. The hugs, for Dan I mean. We all need a bunch, even Steve and David and your H.

Love to you all, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

In case you are still lurking, I read your comments to David, too, and am wondering, taking this from our own lives...... Is there any chance for reconciliation? What do you feel needs to be done? Where do you want to be in 25 years? With whom?

I started out getting support to leave Dan. This "whole damn thing" in the cat box has taken less than 2 months. We have made lots of progress. We need lots more, but I went through the stages (and then some, eh Trubble?) where we were only talking here at this site. Little by little we found ourselves talking. Then we noticed we weren't fighting.

I had to change my whole scenario. Now I am staying here to work it out with Dan. I think that goes for all of us here. This include C & K and "B", too. AngryGirl, are you still with us? Becky and AK and me. We want to spend the rest of our lives with you guys. This can't be because you ~~are~~ often act like total creeps.

Speaking just for Dan and I, we really care for each other. I do want to be with him 25 years from now. I don't expect it all to be my way or perfect. I'm sure we will have plenty more ups and downs. I just want to learn how to do this so we both don't destroy each other getting older and older. It is 50/50, I think. It took two of us to get this far and it will take the two of us to get it undone. (The mess, not the relationship). After a few weeks here I could look back in our lives and remember some really neat things about him. I went through the stage where I couldn't remember one.

Dan dear, this is to you, too. Thank you for the effort you are giving to our future life. I see progress every day and hence.... I get mellower every day. I think it took a lot of courage to join me here. I gave you some really bad posts, didn't I? Yep. Well, after I got your attention we started working on our goal. Bad post me, too, if you need to. I noticed you haven't mentioned my last "Pay attention to me or else!" theatrics so I will. I went out gambling and spent $500. All I lost was my integrity, you still didn't get my message and we were rolling down hill faster and faster. We do know why Dr. Irene. That was an "I turned into his mother." Long over, I hope, long story, too. (Aren't all of mine?)

Enough. I'm willing to accept my 50% of the responsibility for making things worse. Now I want to take my 50% and make things better. I can't do this alone. Nope. And, despite flares, you're both doing your jobs.

I do love you Dan, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Dear Trubble,

Maybe we should rename this, "I don't wannna clean my own cat boxes."

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

dear Dr Irene,Tubble and CAt Box Family,

First off, Thank you Becky from the 9 year old Dan.

Lynn posted that I woke her last night wailing, not screaming because I had a nightmare. It has been many years since I've had them, thanks mainly to Lynn.

Anyway I thought that I would put it down, and you All could give me some input. Lynn and I were doing something, what isn't clear, but we had went to bed, not here in our home, and the bedroom had French Louvre Sliding Doors. We had just got to sleep when I was woke up by the doors opening, this in itself is a feat as I am a heavy sleeper, and someone jumped on me. I struggled and saw a cup of coffee being held out to me by a headless soldier. This soldier may be significant as when I was in VN I worked Graves Registration, we processed the bodies before shipping them to a U S Mortuary for shipment home. We called them Giants. My first body was a young LT, who had been hit in the chest with a Rocket Propelled Grenade, consequently everything from mid sternum up was gone. There were other giants which I helped process who had this part of their body gone, The one in my dream didn't have rank insignia so I don't know it he was an enlisted man or an officer. He kept holding the cup of coffee out to me while holding my arms down, moaning see what has happened. Lynn woke me up, although I thought that I had woke myself up. It took awhile for me to get back to sleep. I would like to say about Lynn's' friend, when we met , he told me what he did over there and it was very significant to me as it would be to all Nam vets.

I think that is all for now, I may post later.

Dan Ouchhh. This hurts.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Wow Dan,

Weird dream. I wonder what the cup of coffee meant. Seems like a strangely friendly thing for a dead body to be offering. ***

I was thinking about what deceit really means. Is it more deceitful to post my feelings on a forum like this, which my partner is shocked and upset by, or to hold my feelings inside until I'm sick? I don't know.

I know a public forum like this isn't for everybody, and I'm realizing that my posts about my H's family serve little purpose other than settling my own questions and concerns, since he is not participating in this. I know he feels this was disrespectful to him. I'm truly sorry that he sees it this way. Maybe I would also find it hurtful, if the roles were reversed. I think though, that I would understand that my partner ultimately wanted things to be better for both of us, and that's why he was posting.

For me to stop posting doesn't really serve any purpose either, since he'll feel hurt regardless. It's not a contest of power though, as he probably thinks it is. I'm not simply trying to band together support and approval for a set of preconceived choices. I really am trying to learn. (and besides I can really use the hugs and the prayers)

I knew eventually that this would be out in the open with him, and I suppose that's what I knew had to happen. I accept whatever consequences.

My H is a very powerful personality an I can't help but wish that he felt right about joining me here. I think he could be an amazing leader if he chose to do some of the work this site talks about. I want him to know that nothing I have said here means I think any less of him as a person. As I have mentioned many times here, I think he is brilliant, and capable of accomplishing pretty much whatever he chooses.

But my H brought up a good point about me focusing more on "my" issues and not so much on his. This is something I know I need to do. Excellent point.

Somewhere along the way I got so caught up or intrigued by my H's life dilemmas that I forgot about my own... I think.. Happens to the best of us.

I have ordered some of the books Dr I. suggested (but unfortunately they take over a month for delivery). Will keep my eyes open for other info.

I think most of my issues deal with taking on other people's "stuff". I need to develop my own strengths. I find it easy to get low and feel intense pain. I'm not sure why hurting has become such a prominent theme in my life. It's certainly not one of my life goals. Another problem I have is dealing with life's uncertainties. I am good about sticking to goals or formulating plans on how to achieve them, but when the goals get changed by outside forces, I want to learn better how to improvise, or "go with the flow". I want to be happier with little; perhaps this is the lesson for me now... 10 minutes at a time, right?

take care all (& my love to you too Steve)

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Steve,

I feel that even though you posted that you were leaving this site, that you will still visit.

You said that AKs' posts were filled with inaccuracies and you weren't even going to dignify them with your side of the story. I would very much like to hear your side of the story. Some of the posts from AK sound as though you two were parroting Lynn and I.

Was one of the reasons that you moved out the wine, candle and hockey game? You asked us to analyze AKs' statement concerning this, this is very hard to do as what have we to compare it to. She posted that you said "You can" are these your words? I am making an assumption here, I don't believe that you like hockey or any sport more than you love your wife, and I didn't take the reverse from AK's post, I just took it at face value, that you would rather watch a hockey game than celebrate Valentines Day by sharing a glass of wine. Lynn likes wine and I don't touch the stuff, but we do share a drink on occasion, whether it's alcoholic or sodas. We also enjoy watching football, and we can get quite competitive going so far as to wagering on who will win the game.

As you have seen, I have posted some of my childhood, and I am not saying that you have to, but if you feel that some of the abusive tendencies which AK posted and also posted that you admitted to, even writing them down somewhere may help you both. I didn't even know that how I treated Lynn was considered verbal abuse but the information, advice and help from Dr Irene and the cat box family has helped me, and that is why I am posting this part of my life.

I am staying with this site because I want to heal my Self, thereby feeling good about myself, my relationship and trying to insure a better future. I don't want to be alone, lonely 25 years from now.

I would really appreciate your sticking around as there aren't too many of us men on these sites.

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Dear AK,

Lynn here, I know where your are coming from, though. When all else failed, I figured if we could just get Dan's past behind us we could get on with our aims and goals. We just kept going down and down lower and lower until I felt I couldn't take any more.

I think with anything else, this has to involve both. I am so glad Steve looked here. At least he knows where you are coming from. Dan did with me and was reluctant to jump in. I still kept doing his work for him (didn't I Trubble?) Me-Owww!

I didn't have to tonight. He posted his dream and then said, "Gee, I don't know why ALL THAT is coming up again. I thought things were getting better." He knew the answer.

Just for the record.......Dan is the one who would be likely to want to share the wine and light a candle to celebrate. I'm the one who would be watching football. He can be quite romantic and I'm about as romantic as an old shoe! If I suggested wine and a candle he would probably suspect I was having an affair :) :) :) and a bunch of smileys.

Love Prayers and Hugs. Don't give up yet. I still say he sounds like a nice guy (I read what he posted to David). And if he were all bad I don't believe you would still be here.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Dear AK,

I agree that it a strange thing for a dead body to do, but my headless soldier wasn't dead. He was shrouded, and very much alive. It's true that when you loose your head chances are you're dead, I know this but he was talking to me and using physical force to keep me pinned, these are other things that corpses can't do. Somehow the past got mixed into the (?) future. I have posted that a neighbor keeps bringing up Nam, and for whatever reason, it has decided to join my life again.

I think that my subconscious is telling me that since I'm going to revisit my childhood, it's time to face Nam again. I have a friend whom I served over there with, who went back and he said that it has made a difference for him. I just got a card from him this last week. He's from your neck of the woods Becky.

I went back to edit this and got a chill up my back (someone walked on my grave).

I hope he leaves me sleep tonight! Face the fear and the fear will disappear. It is no longer real. EMDR is supposedly very effective with this type of stuff. You may want to do a search Dan.

Trubble,

Catnip sauce on Salmon

Dan Would you be my daddy?

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Hi Dan

After reading your post I just thought of what your dream might have meant. Maybe it was "making friends with Nam"? He did offer you a cup of coffee, maybe it was to get you comfortable?

p.s. I just posted the above post to Buddha accidentally again (I said email, but meant post) talk about ditzy! ah well, keeps life interesting...

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

It ought to keep David at Buddha on his toes. ^_^ Nothing wrong with Ditzy. That's when we are being F_____stein's !!!!! Hugs, Lynn

Dan here, you could be right. Nam maybe calling for recognition and offering the cup of coffee as a peace offering? Hugs and hang in there,

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

Dear all,

This is Lynn again. I have a bit of a confession to make here. At one time Dan tried to talk to me about Viet Nam. I interrupted him and asked in all seriousness, "First I have to know. You weren't one of those "baby rapers" were you?"

He started to laugh and told me by comparison his stories were pretty mild, but unfortunately he was never able to get close enough to talk about it since then.

Maybe we've reopened that door, too.

My first question last night when he told me about his dream was, "It wasn't me, was it?" Remember, I had him trying to behead me. No, it wasn't me. After your post AK I asked if he knew the specter? He said he didn't even recognize the voice.

You have a great sense of humor and we are laughing with you. Keeps life really interesting. I'll bet Steve was never bored with you either?

Tomorrow is another day guys, don't give up hope, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2000

Good Morning,

This is Lynn, Is this a Yukky day? Dr. Irene taught us #1- Take care of ourselves. When Dan and I got a little better we couldn't believe all the work she put into the boards. When we weren't we wanted her ALL the time.

Thank you Dr. Irene and Trubble, Get some rest, de stress and I think you have taught us enough to keep on an even keel.

Love to all, take care and stay with us. There are still plenty of Hugs, Prayers and Love,

Lynn Hey, I'm around! Where are you guys?

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2000

S1

Hey you guys, Lynn here

Been having Big Trubble at this site today.........Cyber Twilight Zone. Dan posted twice. One was on the boards even and we were rereading it. Last one he got in a hurry and reset. Aren''t these the most important ones?

Love to all and I don't know if he'll try another or not.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

This is Lynn again,

Maybe our new theme song should be "Starting Over"

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and Trubble,

Thank you for all your insightful posts to the posts from the cat family, and especially those you posted to me.

You are not the first to exclaim disbelief when I told about starting to act adultish at age nine. Some people have even said "You have to be kidding". As I said 9 was a significant year in my life, I even started smoking at that age.

Dear AK<

I'm sorry that Steve got angry with you, but don't let it throw you. Perhaps if he gets angry enough, he will start posting his stuff and realize that the support, advice and comments given here aren't to tear apart your relationship, but to help it. Steve, if you are reading this I hope that you can see that AK does love you as much as you love her, and that whatever support she gets here will be given to you also.

Remember AK, Self prioritizes all else. I'm still trying and learning about that.

Dear Becky,

Once again Thanks from the 9 year old Dan. I would like to see your H start posting here, perhaps he and I could share remodeling ideas, and I don't mean how to start three projects at once, I know how to do that.

I hope that things are going well with your students and with your Self.

I have posted twice before and one was on the reader board and then was gone, the other I hit reset so I'm going to try this one more time.

Hugs, and Best wishes,

Trubble, I'd be happy to be your Daddy, except that you couldn't have Salmon every night. That's OK: Salmon one night, Trout the next... Daddy. Catnip sauce on both. I'll be moving in sometime this week.

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Hi everybody.

I thought we were all in mourning because Dr. Irene was never coming back :(

But I guess we were wrong. Anything I say gets made bigger. I take the pressure off myself and that turns into never coming back. I suggest someone look at Edgar Casey, and I'm a devotee. I post a friend's confession and that friendship has somehow become a pivotal life event for me... And the list goes on...

I'm in agreement about hating those terms "victim" and "abuser". They sort of cloud the issues, I feel.

I have to wonder. If my H and I are in a "power struggle", what are we struggling over? I don't need to have total power. I feel I'm willing to bend, but that he's not. (This isn't a criticism, just what I feel) I'm not sure how a healthy negotiation would work when two people are polarized about celebrating/not celebrating certain traditions. I want to *stop* struggling, if that's what we are doing. You should expect mutuality and reciprocity. No mutuality should be a deal breaker.

And defensiveness... that must be so programmed in me that I don't even know I'm doing it. I didn't even realize that's what I was doing in my post until Dr. Irene pointed it out. Good; keep paying attention.

Must be something to do with a feeling I've always had of wanting terribly to be understood.

Brings up a point... why do I think that's so important? Who misunderstood me in the past? Or who did I model this behaviour from?

Guess I have some thinking to do. Why does anyone have to understand me anyway? They can't really ever understand completely, because they can't be in my mind and body.

Any thoughts on this anybody? Yeah: Who cares where it came from... Spend your energy fixing it. All else is gravy.

I mean, I guess there's a certain level of understanding we want for survival; ie. green and red in traffic lights mean the same thing to you and I, if I look like I'm going up in flames, I would appreciate being put out, when I'm hungry food is required etc. but I guess there are different levels of this.

I want people to understand my feelings because... they will treat me in the way I wish them to treat me. But it doesn't always work this way. Big hmmmm.

Nice to see the cat box isn't dead, nor is Dr. Irene (or Trubble).

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Yes I'm back. Not for the purpose of reconciliation, as that is an absolute impossibility. Why you ask? Because this board has become more important to AK than her oh so horrible H. Come to think of it, there are a gazillion things more important to her than her H.

Denial is futile AK. The electric gods are watching.

How interesting, that this wondrous golden idol - on which we craftily engrave our innermost thoughts, for the world to see - is to many a sign of hope and help. But to others - it is the icy-pale kiss of death. How interesting, that a flock of pigeons can transform itself into vultures when the smell of meat overtakes the sweet odor of barely. How very interesting, when someone yearning, no - dying, for advice, will greedily lap it up like it's the last bowl of milk in the world. Never pausing to wonder if it's laced with ambrosia - or arsenic.

From Dan - "Remember AK, Self prioritizes all else."

Now, is this <a href="http://www.seds.org/billa/psc/" target="new">ambrosia</a> - or <a href="http://www.arsenic.org/" target="new">arsenic</a>? Where exactly, does it lead? I'm beginning to wonder about all this Self-ishness, so powerfully positioned here in this little plot of cyberspace. It sounds so good, doesn't it? I'm almost falling for it. It also sounds vaguely familiar... Some ancient warning in a tale or legend, long ago covered up by the timeless sands of Qumran. I just can't put my finger on it...

Another one, this one from David to AK -

"I would give anything to have a wife like you. Someone who explained what she needs and then, I assume, you would eventually get back with him if he did it? I don't think it is your job anymore to continue to please him. Once you have put him on notice like this, it's his job to come around. If he doesn't then that's it. There are a lot more men out there (as I have come to find out) that WILL treat you nicely."

Again, ambrosia or arsenic? So far, in my opinion, David's words are <font color="RED">EXTREMELY</font> carcinogenic.

"I would give anything to have a wife like you" -

David! Wake up! You have no idea who she is or what the other side of the story is. How can you possible give up everything and anything for a ghost you don't know? It may be flattering for AK, but it's certainly not a truthful statement from you. I can't believe some of the stuff I read here. Actually, I can. Grin.

Here's one from AK to David, discussing me -

"it would be nice if he could occasionally make a sacrifice and try something I suggest without being miserable. But that just doesn't happen and it's killing the relationship for me. Any idea why, or what could be going on in his head?"

She claims it just doesn't happen. This is, literally, incorrect. However, when the pigeons read this kind of stuff (and she's posted one heluva lot of it that's simply incorrect or her opinion), they turn into vultures. Giving AK the oft-used advice of "time to leave, it's your Self's way or the highway for that boy". Ok I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist of how the formula works around here. I've seen several vultures here, including AK, referring to me as a "jerk". Let me see if I can find the quote(s)...

Meanwhile, he's another quote from David to AK (I'm kinda getting disgusted but anyway...) -

"Some things that will definitely "change the paradigm" for a neglected wife who has reached the end of her rope: the wife announcing she wants a divorce, kicking the husband out or the wife leaving, and/or the wife having an affair. While I am not recommending any one of these things, one or all of them will definitely change the neglecting husband's thinking. It may provoke a divorce, but, from what I read on this thread and from my own experience, it more likely produces a remorseful broken-down pathetic husband just crawling to get back into the marriage on the wife's terms"

Lovely, just so lovely. So loving. So SELF-ish. Yeah, I would think some of those things would change a husbands thinking. At least, I would sure hope they would. GAD! What on earth are we on about?

But is this what we want? Infidelity? Dishonesty? Manipulation? A pathetic excuse for a husband who'll crawl back on the wife's terms because she had sex with his best friend? Whatever happened to love? Whatever happened to mutual respect? So, you decide. Is this advice Manna from heaven, or some rancid petroleum by-product?

Following David's Post, AK replies to him, re: traditional roles -

"the wife's job was supposedly to serve the husband and tend to the children"

What? Did I hear this right? Serve the husband? Let's look a little closer at this... Who fought the wars? Who protected the family from invaders? Who died in the coal mines? Who served who? I don't like to make this a competition, but I also don't like un-truths.

And then Dr Irenes reply to AK -

"I think your hypothesis makes sense. Most cultures reinforce submission in their women. But, I wouldn't be able to account for all the abused men using that hypothesis alone. I think lots of stuff comes into play, including biology"

Indeed a lot more comes into play! Who is really submissive? When a man submits to dying for his family? Who pays the ultimate sacrifice of submission? Let us please away with the out-dated gender-feminist stereotypes and generalities. As I said before, people abuse people. Men and women are oppressed. But to peg one sex as the master and the other the slave is simply - incorrect. People oppress, use, abuse people. Leave gender out of it. There are just way too many facts showing both sexes equally guilty of abusing the other sex - and the same sex for that matter.

Ok I found the post(s) where I am labeled "a jerk".

From Dan -

"From my point of view your H is a Jerk"

Thanks Dan, you are ever so qualified to make that statement.

From AK to Dan-

"Dan - Yes, my H can be a jerk. He knows it too. I think he has extremely low self esteem. But he's not always a jerk, he can be a great guy too. He really is like Dr Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde."

That comparison is very unfair AK. Let's talk about _Mrs_ Hyde. In my opinion, your mood swings are much closer to the mythical maniac than mine. Just my observations of course, so Dan, please don't go calling AK a jerk now too.

Anywho, I may be occasionally popping by to stand up for my rights as a human being. To stand up against oppression and dictatorship, the tyranny of the accuser over the accused.

Let the games begin... (drum roll, thunder, lighting and angels with trumpets)

Steve

PS. If AK leaves me out of her posts in the future - since we are no longer so related - then I will make my hasty exit through the bars I've bent with love.

"Gazing from his wind-torn tent, the King scans the barley field, red and black with moldy death. Slowly, he shakes his head, rubs his chin, then quietly puts his grief inside a box so carefully laid with facts.

The storm is over. Peace now will come to this god-forsaken land."

- Blatantly plagiarized from 'The Chronicles of Steve's Serfdom'. Oh boy Steve... This is real sad...

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Hi Steve (big smile with drum roll, thunder, lighting, angels with trumpets, and honest laughter)

Also, love the "blatant plagiarizing" :)

Had some middle of the night thoughts and came to post. I'm glad you've come to visit.

Was thinking on my way to the computer about "an eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek". I vote for the latter method.

I'm actually not the least bit angry, I enjoyed your posts, found them humorous. Maybe you'll get the cat box "rockin'" again. :)

With all this dysfunctional activity at least we're alive! (After yesterday I had to wonder)

Steve - I know you're mad at me, and it's okay, and I'm okay. And I'm not even mad at you back.

At least now, they'll believe me about your creative writing skills. hehe :)

Nobody really does think you're a jerk, although I understand why you feel hurt about that. Dan didn't/doesn't know you and I think, as Dr Irene pointed out, it was the behavior that he was referring to. He has sent you many welcomes to the board since. Actually I think Dan was trying to make me feel better when he said the "jerk" thing, and at that point you weren't even present on the board. Don't sweat it.

Actually, I came here to post something that a friend in therapy told me. His therapist once said to him something like this. "Bob, I know you're positive that Betty hates you and that what she said to you was intended to hurt you. But let's just "pretend" for a minute that she doesn't hate you or want to hurt you and then think about what she said. Of course, *you* know that that's not true Bob, you know that she really does hate you etc. so that's a given. But just stretch reality for a moment and look at what she would mean if she didn't...

My friend thought that was hilarious, and so did I. And he got the drift.

Just wanted to share. Glad to see you Steve... you made your entrance :)

love AK

Hugs to all

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

p.s.

Can't wait to come back here tomorrow, but I have a pretty busy day, so I'll check in when I can - probably late afternoon.

love you all

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Steve

I also can't help but wonder, how can you live with yourself?

How can you say cruel things like you have said here and not understand their impact?

How can you continue to deny that you have a problem?

I don't understand you, but I'm very very sad for you.

AK, Let it go. Stop trying to hurt him cuz you're mad at his mis-behavior. Steve is where Steve is. Nothing you can do about it. I know you love him and would give anything to see him healthier, but you have no power to fix him. He says what he says to justify his position; it's all he has; he knows no other way; this is survival for him. It's got absolutely nothing to do with you.

I take non of this personally and hope the other posters don't either, since it's got nothing to do with anybody but Steve. Steve has the right to feel the way he feels. He doesn't get that feelings are what they are, but behaviors are choices we make about how we express our feelings to the world. So he thinks it's OK to say rude or cruel things. He has the right to say what he says, but if you buy into any of it, you've made his problem your problem. That's "engaging."

Steve's behavior is a perfect example of ego over Self in full, living color.

I am still glad you're here Steve. I know you're hurting and mad as hell, etc., but all of what you think, you choose to think though I know you don't see that. You create your life kiddo. Every single second, you script and create your life. That's the beauty of all this. You make it; you and you alone can change it.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dr Irene wrote:

"He says what he says to justify his position; it's all he has; he knows no other way; this is survival for him. It's got absolutely nothing to do with you. You are witnessing a perfect example of ego over Self in living color."

Sigh. Another way of discounting the meat of what I said. Discredit the messenger to avoid the message. I've been feeling a gender-feminist slant to this whole website of yours Irene. Am I correct in this assumption? Did I hit a raw nerve there? Grin. I'm not saying being a gender-feminist is a bad or good thing. I just don't personally agree with sexism by either sex. Oh boy! Steve's trying to engage the doc!

"I take non of this personally and hope the other posters don't either, since it's got nothing to do with anybody but Steve."

It's not supposed to be taken personally, it's only to make people think about what they are doing/saying.

"He has the right to say what he says, but if you buy into any of it, you've made his problem your problem. That's "engaging."" Me-ow!

I wish you had responded directly to the parts of my post which you disagree with, instead of offering a generality. That makes it far too easy for you to sweep things under the rug. You mean into the cat box!

To AK:

Does it still feel anonymous here? Perhaps, you now understand what I felt.

I didn't say anything to hurt you although I completely agree it looks exactly like that.

My previous post was simply a demonstration of how we can feel hurt by something that is supposed to be "anonymous". In a conversation we had recently, you thought it was alright to do what you did. Somehow you were justified if it was "out of love".

But look what happens... And I just may have done it out of love. Steve Maybe; but pretty good at the ~~guilt stuff even if it is unintentional~~ ... Ooopps! Shame on *Me*

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear All, Lynn here,

AK, Me, too. I was in mourning. Glad she jumped back in. Trubble we need you. Come live with us.... Every life needs 9 cats. ^_^ Becky, are you OK?

Steve, My first reaction when I read your post was to defend Dan calling you a jerk. Dr. Irene has helped me. I've called Dan a jerk, too. Just by his actions. In my heart I knew he wasn't.

Dan mentioned in an earlier post that you two sound like we used to. Talk about button pushing. We were the experts. My "best one" was the gambling episode. His dad used to gamble, his mother hated it, now she gambles every day (legal in our state), but because she isn't playing cards in a bar it isn't gambling. BIG button!!!

One thing I learned here, When I finally did get his attention and we spent about a week not communicating.........then and only then did I have to back down. Now that I have him hearing what I'm saying I don't have to say nearly so much to him. After I wrote here of ALL the hurts/wrongs I felt were done to me was I able to let them go and slip them into the past where they belonged. Like me with the smoke alarm "joke." Over now.

One thing I have to do first is to give DR. Irene a big big THANK YOU.... Our old therapist tried to convince me I was raised with abuse....hence the <<if this were abuse>> in my statement. Yes there were quirks. Lots of lessons I learned here I tried not to make with my children. Some I'm sure I passed on without thinking. My childhood was a glorious chain of events i.e. Getting the Christmas trees and sliding down the mountain on the tree and having picnic's in the snow.

But as Dr. Irene pointed out, My mother taught me how to live in la la land (MY term, A Doris Day movie). And yes Trubble, I am so much like my dad that sometimes I throw my hands in the air and say to Dan, "Oh my gawd, I'm sounding just like my father!" Gets a great laugh from both of us.

Just for the record, I used to read their (mom & dads) love letters. They were stored in a trunk in the garage. Hey, these people were plum ga ga over each other. The letters have disappeared....... (from me at least)

What am I getting at here? I think that ME the self and DAN the self have pasts that determine who WE are. Get the stubborn tenacious ME with the "kick me" Dan or any of........ and of course there are conflicts. It might be the stubborn me (from dad) that won't give up and wants to live a Doris Day movie (like mom) that keeps me here when things are down.

As for this site, it has become a once removed way for US to air our conflicts and find a more constructive way of dealing with them. My goal is to get our relationship well enough that we can withdraw gently. I don't want to determine the rest of my life according to what Trubble reads in the cards every morning. What my goal is, is to have a healthy relationship of two people 50/50. In real life that will change from circumstances to circumstance, but level back to the 50/50.

I think the greatest success story for Dr. Irene and Trubble is working themselves out of a job as far as WE are concerned. Yeah!

Thanks all, and Steve, AK, Becky and the rest lurking...... Tell me who you are. It did me no good to tell who Dan was. That was only my perception of who he was. Dan has to tell who he is to understand why he is. (Same for me).

Dr. Irene,

I have always woken Dan when he had one of these dreams, nightmares. Last night I suggested a new tact. Thanks to AK and the offer of a cup of coffee. Dan is frightened by these and yet he says there is nothing frightening about the coffee offer. Next time we are going to try and ask "him" what he wants to tell him. I say us in these as I'm always there. Once I got over my childish need not to hear anything bad, I am comfortable with sharing his experiences with him. This sounds like we need the assistance of AngryGirl. Where are you?

Love, Prayers, Hugs and Hope,

Lynn PS. I dreamed of Cary Grant last night (A Doris Day co star). He was waiting for me to "grow up" so he could marry me. You can nap through that one, too, Trubble. Good Grief! L

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear AK.

I caught "mouring" as it was being posted. A thanks about "fiend, tho...... Once I got over the ???? can't find a word here (JFK Syndrome?) and realized he wasn't perfect I have managed to go about a week without dwelling on his death. Thanks to Dan, too.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Lynn here,

The "no goo" about Dan wasn't bad either. Says it all. I got no goo telling about him. Trubble, I need an editor, Lynn You've got one who should catnap thru the job more cuz the misspellings are priceless! !

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene and Trubble,

I don't think this story belongs here and I don't want to interrupt Steve and AK other than to ask Steve why AK couldn't meet his kids for 3 years, so if you can zap this somewhere more appropriate, OK.

This is about Dan's daughter and you said she is the only one who can fix herself...... Yep! and I think she is. She was put into our State Mental Institution as she didn't respond to treatment. One of those circumstances you mention about all things happen for a reason. I stay out of most of this, but this day Dan wasn't home and she had tapped out all her other resources. I answered the phone and heard, "MY life is over." in a poor baby pathetic whine. She hadn't eaten for 2 weeks, wouldn't take her medicine, they were considering shock treatments, etc. etc. (This I heard later from the Psychologist who was sitting in the room with her when she called me). I literally let her have a piece of my mind. She tried to dictate to me what we should be doing for her and her daughters. I told he that as she was in the "Looney bin" she had no control, we would do as we saw fit, she could spend the rest of her life with feeding tubes up her tushie and we no longer had to worry about her or the girls as we knew she was safe now etc., etc.

I was quite blunt. She finally hung up on me. Good, it was about 45 minutes overdue, but I made her angry enough to start eating, take her meds, get out and get into treatment, move to another town where she found a therapist she likes and is finishing college in her choice of classes and not her mothers. She is still mad at me, but it is a small price for me to pay as she really is doing so much better. She does talk to Dan and he and I both talk to the girls so I can live with the cold shoulder. I am truly grateful in retrospect because she really needed a swift kick and nobody else gave her one. I truly think she will call me someday and we'll get back to where we were. Small price for us to pay to see her get control of her own life.

Not really pertinent here, just one of those responses to a previous post. Dan and had close contact with the Dr. at the institute and she really progressed quite well. I don't believe there is any anger from Dan toward me about this. We are just both sad that we don't get the girls for a few weeks every summer any more. I think that will change, too.

Boy, you sure threw the scare into us, didn't you? I think this is a sign that this type of therapy is working for us and we are reluctant to let you out of our lives just yet. De stress, take it easy, but p-l-e-a-s-e don't leave us yet. As for G, I got it the 1st time, I think. Drunk or not, married or not, he had to find out who he was. (Alone! We don't need a mate to get well). I can see why he is a great therapist. I can see why he is your friend and I think I can see why we think we need to know about you. How about a brief blurb on the dust jacket of the cat box. I am afraid we forget that you are human, too.

And if you need a skiing trip, maybe G will fill in for a couple of days and feed Trubble Trout and Salmon with catnip gravy. That might make the male/female of therapist's equal. Doesn't matter to me, just so we get better. I can take constructive criticism from either sex.

With much appreciation Doc. Thank you.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Hello!

First: aw, c'mon, Dr. I, I think you're making what I said "bigger." I didn't mean to imply that you are an Edgar Cayce devotee. I assumed that you'd read him, or had heard of him, that's all. If you've read him, you and my H might be able to talk about it--that's all. I was just making small talk. Hey, hey, no problem. Just an occupational hazard. Maybe even a button...

I'm not upset; just feeling "touchy." (Please bear with me). There's an awful lot of heavy stuff being discussed here, and I'm not always able to handle it. I scanned Steve's post and found myself feeling so upset--he sounds so like my H: "Well, if you say I've hurt YOU, I'LL say you hurt me worse!" I know there's more to what he says than that, but that's what I'm reacting to. I know--"react" is a dirty word, and you are right, this is about him, not me. But I have to say that I hate it when couples fight on these boards. There was some of that going on on the message boards not long ago, and I was tempted to say "Take it outside, guys!" Or better yet, to a therapist's office! Yeah! Here, here! I work cheap!

I see the value, though, of couples "talking" to each other this way--there is safety in not being face to face. And if you type something that you'd like to take back, you can delete before you send it.

So, if it's helping, keep it up! I'll try to learn from it. Unfortunately Becky, this is not helping. I just wish I could get my H to understand that no good comes of two people trying to dominate each other into oblivion. I recognize the competitiveness AK talks about. It's like dominating is the important thing, not coming to an understanding, not compromising, just "winning." I've come to believe that my H believes that husbands and wives are natural adversaries, and that by whatever means possible, the husband must prevail. He seemed to enter our marriage with that mindset, and everything that happened was filtered through that. The destruction that's resulted is under his nose, but he won't look at it.

Dan, my uncle served in the air force during the war. I believe he was in Thailand. One of his jobs was to handle body bags--full ones. According to him, he never got over that, and even avoided his dad's funeral because he just couldn't face it. I can't begin to imagine what you guys (and the gals who served, too) went through! And you got no appreciation for it, either! So, I'll just say "Thank you" for doing what you had to do, in the face of next to no support.

Dr. Irene mentioned EMDR (Eye movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) as a possible way of dealing with your post traumatic stress. My therapist has expressed an interest in trying this with me. She gave me a web site to check out: www.emdr.com. I see her on Tuesday, and I'll ask about trying it. She feels it may help me progress a little faster. See another AK's story with EMDR here.

I'm outta here, for now. I've got a huge lump in my throat like I'm going to bawl my head off. I was sick on Tuesday, I've had several headaches this week, and I'm really out of sorts. C'mon, Trubble, let's go lie in the hammock together. You can watch the birdbath from there! Sorry. Gotta do my fee schedule. Let's see: 30 min of *Me* for 1 lb of Salmon...

Becky

Ps I'm really scared to say anything to Steve directly. Does that say something about me, or him? (Bet I know the answer)!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

(((HUGS)))

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box group,

I felt so bad for Becky, yet I don't agree (I can still recall that pain in the heart). Steve and AK don't upset me. It's like the lines of communication are open again. If we don't communicate we can't find out what is wrong and then get it better. I'd love to see Becky's H here and also Mrs. Buddha.

Dan and I had some really bad fights, too. Until these got resolved I didn't feel we could put them behind us. Then we had to forget about them! I don't know if I'm reading between the lines or not, but I think those two (AK and Steve) really love each other. Yeah... How else would they be able to engage like they are? I also don't think they mean to hurt each other. The self preservation shows.

Isn't it sad what we can do to the people we care the most about in the world? Dan has watched his brothers do something to their wives and gets indignant that they are so insensitive, yet I don't believe he saw himself acting like that toward me.

Steve, I know you aren't mad at me. I hope you stay and visit us though. I'm with Trubble, I would like to look back at all of us in a year, reread our posts and learn from the mistakes we made in the past and not let them cloud our future lives with each other.

Mrs. Doris Day here, but I can't help believing in happy endings. It took me a while, but I finally did remember the reasons I fell in love with Dan. His grayish-brown fur?

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Steve, Lynn again,

I'm not trying to pick sides, but I did disagree with AK's post that she wasn't sure if you were ready for this. I think that one was for you to decide. I do tend to want to plunge in and get it done and over with. I did know that I couldn't without Dan. Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Hello.

Just wanted to say hi. It's difficult to know what to say. I'm not here to hurt anybody, just to learn. I don't feel like talking about Steve anymore and it's not my intention to use these boards for fighting. I'm wanting to make peace with myself here. I think that's the most constructive thing I can do.

It's funny that what I thought were my "good" qualities have actually been "broken parts" so to speak. I always thought that selflessness and putting others before yourself were good things to do. I'm realizing that there needs to be balance. That it's great to give, but that you also need to "do unto yourself" as you do unto others in order to treat yourself with respect. Somehow along the way I seem to have shown very little respect for myself and my needs. I know that I do like who I am (though I can always be improved) and I always thought I had a healthy amount of self esteem, but I've somehow extended myself into a place where I can be easily hurt by others and it's not safe for me.

I've always forgiven others, and will continue to, but I need to start to treat myself as I would a close friend or family member and protect myself from harm.

Spent some time with my Mom and Dad today and I think about how "selfless" both of them are - always putting others first. Since they both put each other first it never appeared to be a "dysfunction", but I'm seeing how it can be. I love both my parents - they have always wanted the best for me. I think that they, as is *my* pattern, put *me* and my sisters needs before their own. It was done out of love, but I want to closely examine this pattern and put some boundaries around it, so that I don't repeat potentially unhealthy behavior.

Regardless of life's present circumstances, I have a lot to be grateful for - parents who love me, good career skills, warmy fuzzy pets (a dog and cat) and many many other wonderful things.

I want to pass this chapter of life's lesson book with flying colors. Wish me luck, kay? KAY. And send lots of prayers and hugs. Hugs to all back.

p.s. Steve - I asked Dr. Irene about removing the posts re: your family members. She chose to take them out because she wasn't comfortable with your discomfort. If there's anything I missed please contact her directly.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Becky

((((Hugs)))) from me too.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

(((Hugs)))

and Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

What a classy lady. I'm sorry to say that at first I wanted to hurt Dan. No more, but I'm taking lessons from your post.

Much Love, Luck and lots of Prayers, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Thanks Lynn, you are pretty classy yourself. And with a wonderful sense of humor to top it off.

I'll gratefully take the love, luck and prayers too.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

I think that you are a very refined lady, just what the classic Southern Belle is portrayed as.

I do hope that you will continue to work on Self and continue to keep us informed of your progress.

I didn't feel that you were belittling Steve or his family in any way. Explaining how you felt about their actions is in no way, I don't think, a reflection on either you or Steve.

I think that your parents raised you with the best intentions and many parents will do for their children, in a functional family, before themselves. There is nothing wrong in looking at life and perceiving that you may make a difference. This includes those around you, your relationship with Steve and his family, your family and those of the Cat Box.

My thoughts and best wishes are with you, and Please do not tear yourself down as there are always better tomorrows.

To Steve,

I would like to apologize for calling you a jerk. I can see by your post that you are a very intelligent man, as AK has professed, and its true acting is not being.

I did not want to antagonize you and certainly didn't mean to belittle you. I have tried through AK to offer my support as far as your troubles concerning child support go.

You are right, none of us here at the cat box, except for AK, really know you, and I guess that if you want to take exception, that is your right. I admit to answering AK's posts and trying to give her a male perspective, and also give her the support which I felt that she needed. I will admit that AK, Dr Irene and the rest of the cat box family, have helped me with advice and support which I have followed.

I still feel that if you would look at some of AK's posts that you would see that she does love you and this was the only way in which she could try to understand and resolve some of the conflicts which the two of you have had/are having. I also will respect your wishes and post no more to you.

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

Hugs!!!

There is no way that I can tell you what your saying about Nam veterans means to me, I really appreciate it. I didn't avoid funerals like your uncle but there are some scars which that land have placed that I will have to work through.

I have truly appreciated your posts, and have to admit that some of the things which you have said your husband has done, I could be looking in a mirror.

I don't know if I looked on our relationship as a competition, rather as a means, as Dr Irene would say, of beating myself up.

It really sounds as though you have had a very rough time, what with headaches and all. I know children can push when they know that you don't feel well.

I know now that what I put Lynn through, was pure h---, and I think that your posts have helped us very much.

Big Embraces and go for the gold.

Dan Hi Daddy. Monday nite is Salmon; Tuesday is Trout. Wednesday...

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

AK wrote:

"I wonder how Jesus or Buddha would treat an abuser... "

I think it would depend on whether the abuser continued abusing long after she (or he) had agreed to stop. If so, then I think Jesus would exorcise the unclean spirits from her (or him). Buddha would just whistle for his (or her-who knows what's under the robe) bouncers and have her (or him) tossed out of the bar. *Me*

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Irene said: "Again: I'm glad Steve is/has been around. Hope he stays"

Then why did you delete my last post? I found it to be very very mild compared to some of my others. I didn't! What probably happened is that you posted while I had a page open and when I saved my edit, the stuff in between my opening the page and saving it got overwritten. Unfortunately happens a lot; some posters have taken to writing to word or notepad and then posting in case they lose it. Please repost!

Oh well. I suppose I could be offended and defensive. Fssst - Hisss - PSssssssst - Meowwwwww. Yeah! We'll show em: Hissssssssssss Mrrowwwwwwww Bro Sis Boom Bah!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

I'm not Jesus and I'm not Buddha, but I used to be a bartender. I'm only 5 foot tall and I've never needed a bouncer in my life. I think what I would do is say, "Steve, do you need to talk about this? If so, I'm here." This is new Mommy? Daddy Dan! Where are you!

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and Trubble,

I'm glad to see that you are back, but I have to admit that the board has gone crazy because everyone felt that you were leaving us to our own devices. I have to admit that my heart did lurch a bit, although I knew that you would be in the background. I feel that you have worked too hard getting the cat box family to start working to give up on us. This is especially true of me.

To All,

I posted a letter to AK and to Becky because of the havoc which seems to have occurred when Steve started posting.

To tell you the truth, I did get a little offended at his posting but after looking at it and looking at where I had been I included a post to him enclosed in my post to AK.

I tried posting last night about the knife fight which Lynn had alluded to in an earlier post but for some reason it got lost in the cyber space network.

The fight which led up to this actually started a couple of months earlier. A new family had moved into the neighborhood and the oldest said that he was gonna kick my you know what. He would never answer my challenges and whenever he did come around it was with a parent. Sometime in the fall, I don't remember just when, he and his brothers called my mother a -------. I skipped school the next day and caught up with them. The oldest and I were 16, one brother was 12 and one was 10. We started to get it on and they all pulled knives. I yelled for a knife to even the odds a little but my mother sent a jacket instead. I knocked the two younger ones down and started thumping on the oldest, being watchful of the knife. Luckily I had a longer reach. One of the younger ones got behind me and I don't know if I reflexively moved or if he was slashing but I ended up with a gash on my side. The Dr said that I was lucky as if it would have gone straight in, it would have pierced a lung. The two policemen who took me to the Dr and I got well acquainted in the following couple of years and I don't mean friendly. I asked my mother when I got back from the Dr office why a coat instead of a knife and she told me that she didn't want me to get into trouble.?? I was a hero for a couple of days afterwards, so this taught me a lesson also. Get into trouble or get hurt defending whomever, and I was OK, not a gofer. And I Did.

The main reason that I got involved with the three at once is my dad always said that if I let this sort of thing go, name calling my mother, that I would have to answer to him. We had stepped outside a couple of times prior and I must admit that the only one who hit me harder was a crippled up with arthritis princpal when I was in the 6th grade.

Telling this hasn't wrung me out as did some of my other life posts so I guess, that I have not made this an issue with my parents. I will also say here that for a couple of years after I held a grudge against these boys and it wasn't until I went into the service that I forgot about it, them, the whole schmere.

I have read Buddha's' site and AK I'm glad that we all get ditzy because if we didn't we would be purrfect(ly Trubble) and not need Dr Irene and Trubble.

Trubble, do you prefer rainbow, cutthroat, brown or brook? Cutthroat trout? Are you pulling my tail Daddy?

Hugs and well wishes to all

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Hi Group,

This is Lynn with a scary thought. What if all these missing messages reappear at some future date? Now that's what I'd call ditzy AK. They won't. Promise.

Becky sent me a cute email about our "shower" umbrella. She thinks we should leave it there and start showering while singing "Singing in the Rain." Ah, Trubble, Life should be so simple. Thanks Becky.

Dan, How did they guess? We play the Mommy and Daddy to the critters around here. Don't tell the Doc Trubble, she's got enough to do with/for us. And the kids just got into a box of Tender Vittles and ate them ALL. Foil all over the house (I'm sure it was LOCO!)

Dear Doctor Irene, We had you dead and buried practically. Glad you are still here. Just a Frankenstein break in Transylvania I'll bet.

That came from Dan thinking my post got zapped because I told Steve I was 5 feet tall. Just because everyone else in Transylvania is taller than me, doesn't mean that the rest of the universe knows it's me! Besides, I've been a practicing housewife here. I really have the neighbors (cats) fooled :)

AK, I caught the Kay? Didn't think it was time for a joke, but that and Shirley are two of our Favorites. "But my name isn't." See, we do have fun times together. We are even laughing at some of our earlier posts. I was one angry Alley Cat there for a while. Dan has reminded me of the "look", too. I guess I can whisper and cut off my words and never swear or cuss and he says I'd wilt the Queen. The shouting me isn't as bad as that particular quiet anger according to him. He thinks if I'm still screeching, I can still be reasoned with. When I'm quietly angry he leaves me alone. He never found a button there he'd dare to push, I guess.

I think I can/could be a true and devoted and caring and loving mate. When feel backed into a corner I come out fighting like a large wild cat. I can't deny this as I can read my posts. See, there is a lot of my dad in me. I just hope I compensate with some of the softness of my mom.

We are doing well. Dan hasn't been intimidated enough to go out and do the dishes, so I guess that's a good sign for him. I haven't done them yet and since I profess to love being given the chance to be a housewife, I'd best go do my housewifely thing. Yeah. Like cat boxes.

Take care All of you, Thanks for the hugs, Love to ALL. Fresh Crab with butter running down to the elbows for me and Trubble.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

To Irene:

Chuckle. I can see from your re-edit over one of my posts, that you too have a quick trigger-finger at times. That's very sweet. And re-assuring. Shucks though. I almost had you "engaged". Smile. Actually, you succeeded! So, Trubble popped in.

There's something unfair here though. You have the power to re-edit your comments. I don't. When my knee jerks (or mouse clicks), it's off to the races. All's fair in love, war, and board hosting.

To Lynn:

You are one heck of an understanding person. Wow. You remained neutral/fair when the flock was cleaning up on my bones. (Ok a little dramatic but I like metaphors)

Lucky Dan. And he knows it. Which is really nice to see. Lucky Steve, with a gal like AK whose heart is about the size of the Americas...

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear Steve, Lynn here,

Gee, Thanks. I like metaphors (and puns, I caught the spirits!), too. We must have been posting at the same time. Ask Dan about getting his bones jumped on. I really can get quite heated. I understood perfectly where you were coming from, because you sounded so much like I can.

I also know what a great guy Dan is, but some of the things I told about him made him sound like a cross between Mr. Hyde, Jack the Ripper and Dr. Frankenstein. That's what I like about clicking in. There it is and I wouldn't dare deny it.

I wanted to say hugs to you, too. I think it takes quite a man to jump in here and hearing a bunch of angry women yelling. (Cat-fite) I still maintain tho.... If we didn't love you, we'd have nothing to yell about.

(((hugs)))

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene and Trubble,

That's not new mommy! Daddy was sitting here with me. He knew where that came from :) I'll let him tell if he wants.

Dear Steve,

Over simplification. We maintained posts ago that you and AK sounded like you parroted US. Dan just got that heated stuff out of his system before he hit the boards. I always knew he was a nice guy.............

AK,

Not choosing sides. I felt with Dan if we could get it all out in the open we'd know what we were up against. You, too. Now we know........

Becky,

Thank you for being here. We care about you lots.......

Say Goodnight Trubble, Say Goodnight Trubble.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

To Lynn

I never had time (or energy?) to reply to your question about why I wouldn't let AK see my kids for 3 years. That appears to be a misunderstanding on your part. I never found the post where AK said that, but if she did, she made a mistake.

She saw my kids within the first month if memory serves me correct. And continued to see them even under the most difficult circumstances. I guess it just wasn't enough to meet her needs. But there were reasons, and I'll try to fill it in below. I will say this though. I did try to prevent her from crossing paths with my X too soon. I was very uncomfortable with that. It's a long story but I'll try to condense it.

For 3 years after the breakup, we had been on that weird ground where neither has a new mate yet so we still saw each other occasionally. We did have 2 wonderful boys in common. I had asked my X to get back together officially. She said "No" - basically saying it would never happen and I should get on with my life.

Then, soon after that, I met AK. I liked her a lot and we decided to hitch up. When I told my X I had found someone, she completely lost it. She obviously didn't think I'd truly get on with my life. She begged me to come back, threatened suicide if I didn't, and continued this behaviour for quite awhile.

I was very concerned for her. I knew she was unstable. I was getting torn apart. I was beginning to fall absolutely in love with AK, while my X was telling me how much she needed me. It was the strangest time of my life. I really didn't know what was the right thing to do.

I had a great deal of compassion for my X. She was hurting very bad. She thought of AK as a home-wrecker and begged me to leave her. I just can't put into words how hard it was for me at this time. She couldn't stand to see AK. She couldn't stand the thought of our kids seeing AK.

On one hand, I had my X clearly deep in pain. On the other was AK wanting me to make a clear cut choice to consider her needs. And her needs were - to see the kids a lot, to make my X face the music etc... I debated, delayed, everything, to avoid making this choice that would hurt one girl or the other (plus my kids), and myself no matter which I chose.

AK hated (and I don't blame her) for being put in a position of what she felt was competing for my love. I couldn't make her understand that I didn't want to hurt her but I was also concerned for my X's feelings AND mental stability. I was also very concerned about my boys and how they were seeing first-hand their mothers pain. I still, to this day, feel that they are scarred from this.

(See I told you it was a long story).

I hated the whole ordeal. I feel scarred myself. The fallout has been devastating. It's been 4 years now and my X is still punishing me for not coming back when she begged me. She uses the kids to punish me. She's said horrible things about me directly to my boys. It's been difficult to maintain a great relationship with them. Thank God, they seem to see what's going on now. And I honestly do feel as though I've always been subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) punished by AK for not taking a stronger stand when it came to her needs. (I know she'd probably deny it but I feel it very strongly)

I don't think I can take it anymore. I think I'm just going to just try and be a good father, and forget about trying to be someone's husband. That doesn't seem to be my lot in life. I'm not saying that to garner sympathy. I'm dead serious. The mathematical logistics of trying to make a husband out of me are just too complicating for me to figure out anymore.

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Many many hugs to you also Lynn

Steve Steve: What would happen if each and every little thing you did focused on being the best Steve you could possibly be? Instead of working on being this one's X or AK's husband or the kid's dad? This sounds like a trick question but it's not. I'm willing to bet a big part of the problem you guys are having is that you have never done this...

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

http://drirene.com/no_way.php

If this truly is you AK, then a certain amount of email has been exchanged between you and the good Dr. Irene. I wonder if finally I'm beginning to see the "real" picture. I've seen my mistakes alright. I take responsibility for them. This is not your AK Steve. Promise. Please don't jump to conclusions. I mixed them up too and made a reference to Dan re: "another AK," thinking the initials were the same since "AK" was so on my mind. I'm sorry. The lady who wrote No Way's initials are SK.

(Later:) I just noticed that you probably weren't referring to the No Way poster , whose initial was K, but to the EMDR poster, whose initials are SK... Anyway, I had mixed AK up with the EMDR SK. Which one were you talking about?

Neither are your SK.

But I can't let your mistakes continue to hurt me. I wont let Dr Irene hurt me anymore either. If her advice can turn you into that, then it would never have been a safe place for me.

Silence from you AK. I think I know what it means.

It truly fits the pattern.

Now I'm truly sad. It makes me acutely aware of the power a therapist has over a situation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just observing it as a huge factor in my life.

Good luck to Lynn and Dan. I hope you continue to be a beacon of success.

However, I have to say, I'm not happy with you Dr Irene. You gave advice without hearing both sides of the story.

It's not the sole cause, but it truly has contributed to the destruction of my relationship with AK. I know, I know, you will tell AK it's just me denying my responsibility or whatever, and she will believe you, agree with you, and you 2 can have a great convo about it.

I forgive you. We are all human after all.

To you Lynn. Thanks for leaving me with hope that there are some beautiful people with a good keen eye.

I wish you were the doctor.

Ah, if wishes were Spanish Galleons...

I leave you with a short poem I wrote tonight...

==============================================

Tonight, the Night rules. And why shouldn't it?

The empty dark, like a raven on my shoulder, begging for my eyes.

"Please may I borrow your eyes - I'll bring them back with Dawn."

What do you need my eyes for? They haven't seen a thing.

"Oh but they have. They've seen the most beautiful thing in the world."

Ah yes, and so they have. But Raven, they will never see such a thing again.

You may have them, for all the good it will do. There's no need to return them at Dawn. There's nothing more I wish to see.

"Sad Friend, you are blind, even with your eyes. The Day brings shiny things. To see them, you must have your eyes open.

To live, you must see Life. To love, you must see Love. To see anything at all, you will surely need your eyes.

Even the Night brings shiny things. Stars and Moons and Fireflies. And the most beautiful things in the world.

Do you really believe there is only one most beautiful thing in the world? No, my friend, there are many.

Tomorrow's Dawn, you will surely need your eyes. I will return them."

========================================

Take care all. I wish it could've been a better goodbye.

Steve: Take a look at the top of your post...

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear All, this is Lynn,

Oh, boy. I'm up with the chickens because I JUST got it. Defensive or explanitory, I don't know! My Jesus with the Spirits and Buddha with the bouncer comment to Steve (who got it, I think). That was Lynn the bartender with Steve the customer who had a story to tell and I wanted to hear it. Sorry Trubble. That's one of those from my own experences.... Dan knew this as he used to bartend, too.

OK, Steve, I want to go back and read your posts again before I talk to you. (((Hugs)))

Back to yesterday. The dynamics were amazing. Two weeks ago AK and Steve weren't talking and now they are both shouting. I saw that as progress. You bet Mommy2.To me, that opened the lines of communication. Dan and I went through this, too. Once the dust settled and we both backed off, we started talking here. We go back and read our posts and it got downright ugly at times.

Here's the next point and to Dan about his/your post about the knife fight. Talk about buttons. Look at the dirty words I called your mother. What I said on the boards is nothing compared to what I called her to your face. Dan, I am sorry, but this isn't about that. This directly connects to us. When I went into these tantrums saw you hang your head in shame. I'd goad you on because I felt you would get stabbed in the back for her and not say boo for me. Real childish thinking on my part and I am sorry for thinking that would work. It didn't. It nearly destroyed us. Same story of yours. You would tell me, "I'm from __(our home town)__ and don't mess with me because I learned to fight on the streets!) This usually got a "Buster" comment from me and I dared you to show me how you street fought. See Steve and AK, we did this, too.

Then one day we were starting to get into a fight and I was mad and I was going to show you and walk home. Dan said loudly, "Get in the F'n truck, Pleeeze!" I turned around and got eye contact and was ready. Dan looked at me and said firmly, "I said please."

That he did and I got in the truck and was strangely happy. I'm still not sure that I can explain it, Trubble, SOS and that doesn't mean Salmon over sauce.

I knew I liked him better at that moment than I had in ages. No fight either. No other words, in fact.

Maybe there was no pity, no whimp, no defenses, no kick me. He wasn't going to take my "Buster Bluster" and I liked it?

Somewhere there the dust started to settle. We still had a few rounds to go, but strangely (or maybe not) there was hope after that.

This one's for you AK. From my upbringing I had to let Dan's mom eat her steaks. That wasn't worth a fight. I didn't realize it was a show of power. Even if I did I might have let it go. I didn't realize we were competing for him. (Thanks Doc, no wonder she was willing to fight me to the finish). Like I said before, when I back off I can pity her. Now I think I have to learn to forgive her Not easy. I think you are right here though, AK. You can get me thinking. I have to for my own sake. I can and do hate her for things she has done to Dan and to Dan and I. I'm going to have to find a way because I'm not capable of holding a grudge and I think this hatred may be contagious and that thought I don't like. This may be comparable to hating Viet Nam because of what the war did to Dan. This will need some work.............. Doc, any suggestions?? You're already working on it...

I'm ready to move on with this and I am going on a vacation next week. I'm open for suggestions..... I have 2 weeks to reflect, think and do constructive stuff. Steve, if you aren't talking to them, don't give up on me. I'll listen to you, too. MommyDoc2I love you!

Take care all, I do love each and every one of you, especially Dan and Trubble,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Steve

I don't want to compete with you. I'm tired of having my every motive scrutinized and regarded as some sort of devious collaborative plan. Unless you can start to see things a different way, I can't communicate with you. I just can't get through. You can't/don't want to understand. Love alone does not protect me from your cruel behavior, which I know you think is all my fault. I need more than love. I need some sort of promise that it's not going to happen anymore. I don't want to spend my life in this melodrama. I have better things to do.

If you really wanted some hope for the relationship, you could check out this url http://drirene.com/quick_guide_abuser_tx.php and there are many others.

You want to blame Dr Irene for what's happened to our relationship, but you won't own up to the damage you've inflicted. I deserve better treatment. I am better off alone.

I've held out hope for the relationship again and again, and each time, I've ended up hurt and disappointed. How long can I keep doing that to myself, without waking up and smelling the roses?

You're not going to change, because you don't want to change. I feel sad about this, but I have no power over it. I'm going to stop banging my head against the wall. If you come around it will be because you choose to, not because of my demanding you to.

I would suggest you re-read some of what Dr Irene has said to you. Not because I think that she is some sort of god, but because I think you could learn from it.

You are distrustful, because you set up a situation where you can always "prove" me distrustful. I'm not that way. Everything I do or say seems to push a button and I'm tired of worrying about which buttons I may be pushing.

You could learn a lot from this site, if you were open to it. But I don't think you are.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Whoops, wake up and smell the roses?

Another Freudian... 'cause that's what I'd like to be doing.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

Lynn here and I just read your posts again and even made notes. A day full of dynamics can get me confused and I find I'm better sticking with one subject at a time.

First of all, the metaphors, and if no one else caught the mix, I am going to let it go. Tsk, tsk. :)

Then, let's again clear the air on my bartender comment. That wasn't a come hither. Anyhow I prefer older men and Dan's getting older with each birthday.

Steve, I am sorry about the mix up about the kids. Our stories are so similar that I get confused. Dan's X. I don't think she wanted him as bad as when she saw I had him. This from a man (Dan) who wouldn't ever love another woman, etc. Then he missed her act. We had a blazing row over that, but one of those healthy "cat fites" that clear the air and don't leave scars or wounds.

And a big OUCH about the suicidal threats from the X. Dan's daughter did that to us. Emotional blackmail. I can't/couldn't believe some of these. Another long story, yet an important part of our relationship.

Back to your X. I don't always like it, but I know Dan and his X had a hot steamy love affair with each other for years. Love dies, yet somewhere lurking in the background I think we always wonder if we will ever be that important to you. Dan cleared this up for me nicely. I had a past, too. That settled that. Yet this too, became a part of who we are today.

Did you hear your statement in the middle of this? "I was Absolutely in love with AK."

Back to AK. I think she must have been absolutely in love with you, too, or why else would she have needed reassurances from you? I'm like her like that. I like everything up front so I know what I'm dealing with. Then I can work it out. I've often told Dan that I wish he'd stop trying to read my mind because he could never guess what I was thinking. I'd rather he'd just ask and then respond to what I say. I've also told him not to ask anything he doesn't want a truthful answer to, because I will answer with the truth.

I can hear so much of you and Dan with the X's. Of course you don't want them hurt. You want to do the best for the kid/s (we're up to 8 grandkids). In the middle of this we have day to day life to live. This gets so complicated, because in the middle of some of these is when I need Dan's reassurances the most. Here's where we mess up. My past and his past get in the way of our current thnking. This is when I need the Thanks, Honey (from my childhood) and he needs to withdraw (from his). We can make it so complicated. I forget this is Lynn and that is Dan. I get us all confused with each other. This is why I think I was so intent on fixing Dan. I thought because I loved him I could fix ALL his problems. Hell, Steve, I couldn't fix my own. In fact I forgot about mine. My goal wasn't bad tho.... I truly wanted us to work on this so we could gently drift into old age and live with peace, integrity love, intimacy and a few healthy debates once in a while. Not a bad goal. I was going about it the wrong way. Dr. Irene helped me here and if you feel she's feminine biased, reread some of her posts to me. I thought for a moment she was picking Dan's side, like this was a big scoreboard and at the end of the month everbody got to vote on their favorite. Dan 6, Lynn 0.

Steve, just try and be Steve. Just be the best Steve you can be in all your hats. Be the kids dad, Steve; be the X's, X Steve; Be the child of your parents', Steve; Be Lynn's friend, Steve; Be whatever you will with AK. Just be Steve. I can hear you there. I think I always could. Whomever's buttons you are pushing, you aren't pushing any of mine. I'm even missing lot's of them. I just wish you the best, because the little I know of you I think we are quite alike. (Maybe the same birth sign?) :) :)

I loved the poem and it meant something way different to me (I think) as there are things... birds, eyes and dawns that have really strange connections to Dan and I, unless you are reading my mind.

Enough heavy stuff. I was a bartender, not a therapist. You sure can get me deep into my feelings tho..... as AK can get me thinking. Ok, Trubble, you, too. What's on the menu for tonight? Did you ever try cat fish? I'll bet Dadums would catch you a platter full. Mew?

Steve, take care. If you choose not to come back I will try to understand, yet I'll miss you.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Ok you guys,

I went to see if my post posted and there are new posts and blue pencils, too. I have things to do that are not as important as us, yet they have to be done....

AK, Stop and smell the catnip?

Steve and AK,

When you finally get each others attention we are going to have to take a breather and find out where you two want to go with this. If I'm premature with this suggestion, it's just because I'm ALWAYS in a hurry for results. Don't let me rush you. (No buttons intended).

Dear Becky,

I'm thinking of you.

Off to the stores. Much love and loads of catnip and hugs.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

TGIF!!!

Thanks, everyone for your thoughts. I'm fine--if I were truly as fragile as I feel sometimes, I'd have been dead a long time ago! :-)

AK, I totally identify with your frustration. I could be writing your posts. I sense that Steve, like my husband, wants things to be better, but he doesn't want to have to do much of anything that's different. In other words, things would be "better" if I'd just shut up and go along. Trouble is, our definitions of "better" are different.

Now, I know I could be wrong about what Steve wants, but I don't see a lot of willingness to examine himself and what he does that contributes to the problems. There's so much "Everybody's against me! Nobody wants to hear MY side!" in his posts. I don't get that at all; everyone, including the Dr. seems genuinely interested in understanding Steve's "side." And AK has gotten her share of the Dr.'s no nonsense approach, too.

I'll admit that I'm looking at this from the perspective of my own experience, which probably isn't fair. But my husband is competitive by nature, and that seems to over ride any desire he may have to have a good relationship. When there is a disagreement, or i act as though I think I'm on an equal plane with him, that competitiveness comes out. I mentioned the financial issues before. And if I feel abused, HE feels abused more; if I'm depressed, HE'S depressed--more! I've even noticed that if I say I don't feel well, he often puts his hand on his forehead and tells me he thinks he's running a fever!

So I sense this competitiveness in Steve, and I want to say, "Hey! Put that aside and look at what's important! You're losing your marriage!" Same thing I say to my husband.

Steve, I genuinely feel no ill will toward you. I wish you and AK would be happy and work out your problems. But to do that, you have to acknowledge that there is a problem--don't try to fix blame, or work it so you're "less" to blame. Just sit down together and decide to solve this problem!

Lynn and Dan, I think you'll make it, because BOTH of you wants to. If it were just Lynn, or just Dan, it wouldn't work. You guys are making me proud!

((((AK and Steve)))), ((((Lynn and Dan))))

Have a great weekend!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Darn!

I made an error in subject/verb agreement: I should have said, "both of you want to." Or, I could have said, "each of you wants to." I'll have to spend the rest of the day in the English teachers' Hall of Shame!

Becky

PS. See, I'm still standing!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Oh Steve,

I missed a big one! If wishes were Spanish Galleons..... Remember the Atocha?

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Becky dear,

Doo, doo, doo, doo, again! Ain't it great? Some of these posts a blind cat could read and know how distraught we are at the time of writing. Others I get the dictionary out. This can really show our state of mind.

See, you are here for me, too. Funny, but now that you mention it, I'm the competitive one in this family. I'll bet I was the last to know on the boards!!! I'm also the daring doer. I didn't mention one of my last gifts from Dan. A motorcycle. OK, no lectures, it's not a big one, remember at 5 foot I have to reach the ground. And my adult boys T-O-L-D me what I told them, "Mother! If I catch you on that without a helmet!!!" My darling Dan heard me say that I love bikes (motorized) and got me a great little Yamaha enduro 125. Go figure this, this is a guy who bought me a cocktail dress with a matching jacket last year. He doesn't like bikes (motorized), but isn't threatened if I do. This has a lot to do with the bouncers in the bar story. I am so glad we got past that...... if we were ever in it.

If I had to analyze this, and I'm glad I don't have to, I'd say this is my way of keeping some excitement in my life. (Other than Dan).

And Becky, yes, Dan and I are trying. We just quit trying so hard and quit trying to change each other. We don't often rehash his posts. Unless they directly relate to something that I did because of, or he did because of, this is his stuff to heal, not mine. I am too emotionally involved with him to be objective about his childhood anyway. I think I tied to throw it in his face so he HAD to deal with it. That's what I like so much about Dr. Irene (Trubble, you can't jump in here, you are always on Daddy's side) Dan has related to her and these posts, hence I relate to me and get off of his back. I don't know what magic you used Dr. Irene (did you borrow my wand?) but he really is opening up.

I do love the way he wants to take care of you and AK, too. That is one of his best qualities. We have two older widowed neighbors and we call him "our" husband.

One thing I told Steve and this went for Dan as much. I always only wanted Dan to be Dan. Not what he thought I wanted him to be. I do think that is a man thing.

I'm glad you feel safe back here (you do, don't you?). I wanted Dan for years to be as vocal as Steve. Then it would all be out in the open and we could fix it or not. I thought I saw a lot of healthy interaction there. Well, maybe not healthy, but....... Still a lot of stuff unresolved. Yet, the lines of communication are open again and now they have to do what we did (this took me time) decide to get all the hurts out in the open and then heal them and put them behind. This is why I wish you would be comfortable with your H here. Don't let me push this tho..... you have to be ready. If we don't all get better how are we going to take that Alaskan cruise with Doc and Trubble? (and LOCO, so Dan comes, too?)

OK, I give in, we'll change the terms: victim and abuser. I know when I'm out voted.

Love, Hugs, Prayers, Songs and Wishes to us all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

No editing needed Trubble. I truly "tied" it to his face. Doc, you should write the book of goofs ^_^

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Becky,

I like it your way. We both wants to. Dan's DD brother has a great term I love in real life. Ask him a question he likes and he replies that that would be "more better" Thats got to be a double positive and we can use more of them. :) :) Don't forget ((((Becky and H))))). Thats more better! Now we all wants.

LPH,W and :) Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Hi guys.

I'm not expecting Steve back here.

He says he has to resist reading the boards "to do what's healthy for him". That he has to resist doing what his heart says rather than his head.

Talking about my feelings to him on this board feels safe somehow, where I can't easily be manipulated, or lose my clear judgment, which is what has sometimes happened to me when I'm alone with Steve. I don't want to talk about personal issues with him anymore.

Ironically, he thinks that it's you guys that have brainwashed me, but in reality I feel that it's him that's pulling all the brainwashing and manipulative ploys.

I feel very yukky today. I don't have much hope for the relationship.

But I accept Steve's choices. I know that truly I need to focus on my own health and growth, and it's been a long while since I did that so it will be a new exercise for me.

I am *very* disappointed about Steve's choices, but I will have to get over it and make my peace with it. Things will get better.

I'm not happy either AK. I hope he'll come back and look through this thread because maybe he'll realize that he got angry when he assumed that either No Way or EMDR was you writing. And it wasn't! Steve made a very common mistake: he jumped to a conclusion and got all upset over an assumption that wasn't true! This is the automatic thinking I talk about that gets us in trouble. Ouchhh! And Ouchhh for no reason!

Steve also said you hurt him and I hurt him. You, I can understand, but me? I think what happened is Steve did a bit more automatic thinking in here. When I pointed out to him what I thought he could be doing in a way that may be more productive for Steve, he inserted criticism - that I never stuck in there nor wanted him to! I'm always telling people to stop beating themselves up. The criticism Steve inserted is a good example beating yourself up. This stuff is not to hard to stop once you see it. And stopping it feels good!

Steve, I hope you at least read this. Nobody's perfect. No me, not AK, not you. You even caught me up above engaging with you before Trubble came to the rescue! I admit having made a mistake cuz - it's OK to make mistakes! I could have denied it, but I didn't. I didn't have to cuz I have learned not to beat myself...

Anyway, AK, I'm sorry things are the way they are. It takes two to make a relationship work. It's sad to see two people who love each other breaking up for reasons that are not even real reasons! I hope Steve comes back. He doesn't even have to deal with me; He's got Trubble & MommyDoc2 who are a lot easier to deal with. (I never said I was easy and in fact have a rep for being "tough.")

take care everybody. Thanks for your good thoughts and wishes.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

I feel bad for you, too. I don't know about Steve. That has to be between Steve and himself. Take care of yourself, though. I really liked the guy, I hope we hear a thing or two. I don't know what to say, except I love you. You too have become special to me and I will continue to care about you just because I feel you are a friend. Loads of hugs and kitty kisses. A puppy slurp doesn't hurt either, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

I just read my post to see if it posted and to do my editing. I saw what I wrote. I really do like you. "Keep in touch with us." Kinda think it meant keep in touch with me. Know what I think I like. I see a lot of me in you. Now after that statement I'll either never hear from you again or you are going to write and tell me you like bikes, too! I promise, I won't offer to lend you my cocktail dress.

Do you suppose the Doc would tend bar for awhile? Maybe we best leave me where I'm most comfortable. We'll send those other guys home. They have a lot of other stuff to do anyhow and let's start over. I do want to hear about Steve. I really meant that. Who are you? I'm a Scorpio.

(((Hugs)))

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

No way Lynn - you're not selling out.

I don't even see where that idea would come from. (Maybe I'm being naive again)

I think *everybody* has their story, and everyone should get the opportunity to tell it. This is as good a place as any.

(both our last posts got deleted - mine wasn't that important, but I think you addressed something to Steve, so you might want to re-post it)

love ya Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Very wierd, but when the doc was editing, one of your posts appeared to be deleted, when I posted next, the original post was back but the next one was deleted. (the one I just addressed) The mysteries of cyberspace.... doo doo doo doo...

Anyways, Lynn will understand what I meant, and she can re-post if necessary.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Good Grief! I know that I learned from my mother that la la land is normal, but I had a post, I re posted, #1 got lost, AK read it and answered, I reposted #2 and went back and 2 was there and 1 was gone and I don't care what my mother taught me. La la land is too confusing for me. Pftttt! Grrrr!! and all that stuff. That feels better. Now I'll try and re post my other. Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Lynn

I know you said that cutting and pasting text doesn't work for you, but maybe I didn't properly explain.

If you save your posts to another text document and they don't show up, you can re-post them.

First, you have to highlight the text after you've posted. To do this you left click and drag your mouse. Then you can either use the drop down list in your browser (most likely under "edit" and select "cut"), or you can hold down the ctrl and c keys. Then you can paste it to a text document - whatever word processing software you use. Go to edit, drop down to "paste", and paste it there. (or hold down the ctrl and v keys).

Your system may not work this way, but maybe this will help some others who are using a pc system.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

This is my third try. I'm nothing if not persistent. Lynn here for the 3 time on a post that was suppose to go directly under my one to Steve. Ak's answer is then to be read, because it makes sense that way.

I said that I hoped you guys didn't think I was choosing sides, because I can't. Steve's story is as important to me as Dan's, AK's, Becky's, and my own as well as others.

I made some comment about feminists lurking here and if they thought I was selling out, tough. I still feel Steve has a story and I want to hear it. I suggested Steve and I jump to another board, but I'm having the big one here and maybe I better stay.

Love , Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

We're on web TV and we can cut and paste, just not here. What is so funny, I used to be a whiz on the computer on the Lotus system.

I think I may be too emotionally involved here :) Daddums is home Trubble, gotta go, Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Ack! I just posted to Confessions instead of catbox. But yes, I'm still out here. *hugs all 'round*

-AngryGirl

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Angrygirl - hehe, now I don't feel so ditzy. It's easy to do if you have several windows open. I keep posting irrelevant stuff to Buddha.. but they are used to it now. :)

Becky - thanks for your post. I think I'm afraid to address you because I'm pretty sure Steve will see it as ganging up on him. Anyways, I send you my love and prayers.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

AngryGirl,

Welcome back! This is Frankenstein stuff here guys, not ditzy! Maybe Ak and I should send our last couple to confessions and Buddha, No, they are confusing enough here. Ak and I know what we are talking about, though.

Dan's home now and has read the posts and has to go fix a neghbors plumbing. He is laughing with me (I hope). He thinks I sound like Steve, too. So how can we team that one up? Steve and I and Trubble against the rest? That ought to confuse everybody's issues. (boy vs. girl?)

Here we go again...... AngryGirl, I needed you way up there somewhere.... Becky, I love ya' AK, Oh, boy! Dan, I love you, you caught the "mix" :) Steve, you know.

Dan and I will be home soon and then it's his turn.

Love to All of us, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Hi, everyone, Glad to see you back AngryGirl! AK, that's okay, you don't need to directly address anything I say. I agree--in his present state of mind Steve would see that as you , once again, joining with someone against him. I'm mainly just trying to tell you that I can identify with many of your feelings. When you said that he says he has to stay away from the board for the sake of his own health, I just shook my head. I can imagine how uncomfortable all of this is for him. But I've learned that growth can be pretty darn uncomfortable, even painful as all heck! But boy, is it worth it! I know what it's like to not like what you see when you look inside yourself, and to feel sadness and even regret over the past, to wish you'd been smarter (and I'm not referring just to my present situation. My codependency has gotten me into trouble before). But Dr. I is right--beating ourselves up is a waste of time. And I really don't think that any of us "victims" who still love our spouses want them to jump off a cliff over how they've acted. But I'm preaching to the choir!

Lynn, I never really felt unsafe here. I guess Steve's anger just put me off some. The "Everyone's against me! I'm so misunderstood!," and the allegations that AK is being brainwashed by Dr. Irene and the rest of us, sound so like my husband. The frustration, anger and helplessness that I feel when my H gets that way surfaced as I read Steve's posts. My husband, also, likes to imply that my therapist just tells me what I want to hear, and that she wants me to believe that he's "the big bad abuser," and I'm the "poor little victim." UGH! I told him once that my counselor said that I've made a lot of progress; that she could see many differences between the way I am now, and how I was a year ago. He said," What else WOULD she say? If you AREN'T any better, how does that make HER look?" So sad, huh?

Anyway, I, too am sorry that Steve has decided he's better off elsewhere. I think this is a great opportunity : there is a knowledgeable professional commenting, and a group of interested, supportive people who genuinely want to do and be better.

I hope we all have a nice weekend. My older boy is coming over on Sunday, and I'm taking everyone out to dinner to celebrate my new job. Tomorrow, I think we're doing more kitchen cabinets--pray for me! :-) You bet!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Hi everybody

Just wanted to say that I'm feeling a lot better. You may see Steve on these boards more after all.

I'm not going to speak for him here, he can do that himself, if and when he is ready.

Just that I see he is opening up to seeing things differently. And that he has been punishing himself unnecessarily for a long long time. It's time for healing. He knows that he's been his own worst enemy. Whatever it is that he's been so hard on himself about, it's time to stop.

If and when he comes back, I know you'll all offer your support. You bet!

Thank you. I know your prayers have been helping. You bet!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

Dear AngryGirl,

I really liked your post at Buddha, thanks. You know exactly what I am talking about. Dan is having a tough time with it here tonight. Tough question, isn't it? Without all the extra players. I'm not sure I can say who "I am" either,

Glad to hear from you, Trout to Trubble, (((Hugs))) Trout!

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, September 29, 2000

S1

d'oh! I somehow managed to double post to Confessions! *sigh*

Something wrong with the computer perhaps. I'm getting doubles of some of my e-mail too. :P

I can somewhat understand how Steve feels. One of the things I'm trying to deal with in my situation is making sure people *don't* start taking sides against my ex and making him feel like everyone we knew (other than the handful of hardcore stoners who probably think *I* am nuts) is ganging up against him. And I think he already feels that way to an extent. And the part of me that is still furious with him says "well, he made his bed, let him lie in it WITHOUT ME!!" but I don't make a practice of trashing people I used to date, there was a point where I wanted to marry this person, and there's a lot of good things about him. I have to try to be fair. It's not easy to do while I'm still this hurt, but I'm trying my best. Of course, even "letting the facts speak for themselves" in my case has led to most people saying that I'm better off because of the whole drug issue.

I don't know if we would have made it or not if the drugs hadn't driven a wedge between us. I would have been more willing to keep trying, certainly. But given that I'm a medical/safety officer in the living history group we belong to and I could get my officer's warrant yanked if illegal substances are found in my tent, and he KNEW how important that was to me and brought the stuff anyway and said "I'm sorry it's driven us apart but I have no intention of stopping" ... I can't in good conscience try to salvage anything beyond a friendship.

Is there blame on my side? Sure. Plenty of it. I fell for him too hard too fast, and when I thought I was the only one that knew better than to fall for some of the mumbo-jumbo junk that was going on in that crowd, I kept quiet and let the dream get in the way of real life. I didn't set ANY reasonable boundaries, so the poor guy kept crossing lines that he didn't know were there, and I kept screaming at him and making him feel stupid. I certainly created a lot of my own misery (and his!), and I've never denied that.

It is ironic that Lynn went from wanting to leave to wanting to work things out, and I did the exact opposite. I'm glad that Lynn and Dan are doing so well, though. :)

[interruption. he just called. how funny. guess he's going over to hang out with Cheech and Chong and wanted to know if I was interested in joining them ... *chuckles* silly boy. I have to work some overtime tomorrow b/c some stuff that's supposed to be done as of 10/1 isn't done yet, and I don't really want to hang out with Cheech and Chong anyhow!]

And re: this whole feminism bit, since when does "feminist" mean "everything's the guy's fault 100% of the time?" I happen to be a pretty strong feminist and I'd say a good 75% of my friends are male. I don't think men are responsible for the world's problems -- I think that frequently OTHER WOMEN cause women more trouble than men do. I've seen women abuse the system with respect to domestic violence and child custody cases. (One friend's mother pulled a knife on his father, then the FATHER wound up in jail because he left a bruise while trying to take it away. The then-16 year old kid saw the whole thing. Another friend's insane alcoholic mother told her dad "if you try to get custody I'll just say you're molesting her, and they'll believe me because I'm a mother and a teacher." UGH!) This isn't right. I don't think it matters who started it, the point is that adult human beings should be able to deal with one another on that level, without special treatment due to gender or anything else.

On some issues, women do definitely get a raw deal in society. On others, men do. There are stereotypically male and stereotypically female ways of acting abusively. Neither is appropriate.

Sorry I disappeared, Lynn. I plead temporary insanity :) I was in serious "I don't WANNA be responsible!" mode, while dealing with work being busier than usual, school project due, convincing folks in my local SCA (living history) group that I did NOT drop off the face of the earth after all, etc. And staring at the piles of laundry and books that are currently eating my room, trying to get the motivation to do something about same yet failing miserably.

I'll get there. :P

-AngryGirl, who hopes she posted to the right place this time :)

to cat box 5