Comments:  Spouting On The Female Narcissist

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2002. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Tuesday August 13, 2002

I would have to agree with Marty, on one point that there are abused men out there, however...abuse is about power and control. In most cases the male is the one with control. It is a proven fact. They hold the jobs, the money and the threats. I have heard of abuse coming from both parties and abuse on males but the statistics you qoute here, Marty, are wrong. It does seem that you may need to re-evaluate your approach with the women you are dating, or the women themselves because there are alot of wonderful women that are just looking for peace and safety.

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

Marty's post seems to build up a case against women. I have heard and read (on the Internet and in real life)the things he says here from several men who are still single at 40. I find it very unpleasant to hear general statements about a gender because it gives me the feeling that one does not do the effort to have a look at what an individual person thinks and feels. I find Marty's post negative and for me it comes across as filled with hate and contempt for women. Maybe this is what other women have felt when they are around him. I have known men who said of themselves that they were emancipated and willing to commit in a relationship, but they made too many general negative statements about women and therefore I did not want to see them anymore. I felt uncomfortable around them. The problem is that such a man gives you the feeling that you will always have to defend yourself when you are around him. Another thing is that if a guy seems to have had some negative experiences and is talking a lot about them, you get the feeling that there are too high expectations directed towards you. In such a situation I get the feeling that I can only disappoint and therefore I stay away.

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

I think since Gen-X, intimacy problems are increased. The focus generally over the past 2-3 decades has been on financial stability, material success, and models of healthy relationships are less and less, all this for both men and women. Plus, where are relationship skills taught? Marty words are angry and he sounds fearful. I'm not a doc, but it could be that he's attracting women just as fearful as himself. One wrong move and it's over. One outburst of emotion and he realizes they're flawed. The name-calling is what bothers me most. It sounds like he's devaluing these woman to make them look wrong.

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

"One outburst of emotion and he thinks they are flawed". As a woman I would like to meet a man who can accept me as a complete person with the good, the bad and the ugly. That is after all what I want to accept from my partner. I have heard men say that they don't want a problematic woman. Problematic is a woman that shows her hurt or anger when they do something that is rude and insensitive. But is a relationship about bluff and pretending? Is it about being stepped on your toe and not being allowed to yell "Auwwww"? Some men are very sensitive and want their female partner to be a mirror for themselves and they want the image they see in it to be nice and good. But to have a nice and good image it has to be in you. A woman cannot reflect happiness if it is not in her partner in the first place.

August 14

Ooops! Well, now we know why Mary's not getting the nice gals. Here's an email he sent me today:

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

Hello. Sounds like Marty has anger issues and is mad a the world!!

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

Wow, Marty sounds like the man I just left after almost two years of listening to that. I bent over backwards to show that man how much I could love him thinking he would understand that there are good women out there,and it made absolutely no difference. His agenda was every bit as strong after as it was before. His agenda was a campaign to discredit women. And by the way, his 80 year old mother would have said the same thing as Marty's. Maybe that's where they learned to hate women.

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

Hi "Marty" Is that from the classic play about the "ugly" guy who gets the "ugly" girl? Let me assure you "Marty"; your not ugly that I know of but your definately an angry man! At first your story got me angry and then I read the e-mail and thought the Doc's reply to you, as with any Verbal Abuser, was about all the time you were worth. Goodbye "Marty" Your are too FUBAR to get help here!

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Wednesday August 14, 2002

Marty, I agree with you and I am a woman who classifies the women you aspire to as brainless tw*ts. However, it may be that that is what you want. Have you looked past the Sports Illustrated physique to the mousier, plainer women - who would probably be a match for you. Painful as it is, most of us are not supermodels, nor are most men. Personally, I prefer a man with something between his ears, not his legs. Look in your own age group, dear, if you want something with substance.

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Thursday August 15, 2002

To the writer of the last comment. There is no link between outer beauty and inner beauty. This means that women who don't look like a supermodel can also be mean and cruel. And that slim women who have good looks can be very nice women. The point is that all these generalizations don't get you nowhere. Instead of making general statements about men and women people need to take the time to learn to know and love themselves and then they will also be able to know and love other individuals. All these general statements, just like statements which contain "always" and "never" just express a lot of frustration and a hopeless try to get a grip on the world and reality. I think you should start by getting a grip on yourself.

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Thursday August 15, 2002

Marty, if you start a relationship with a 2X4 on your shoulder how can you expect it not to be knocked off? Any relationship should start with a blank page and build from there. Until you can do that, I feel, you will always be in the negative. I don't think any person is attracted to someone with a bad attitude. People who make generalizations seem ignorant and self absorbed. How can any healthy relationship start with such an angry judgmental out look on life? Good luck.

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Thursday August 15, 2002

As long as Marty believes there are no nice gals, there will never be any for him.

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Thursday August 15, 2002

I wonder if Marty has ever heard of a term called projection. Is he attracting what he's giving out? I don't think he can see it because of his anger.

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Thursday August 15, 2002

If I would have met a man that made comments as Marty did in his original post to Doc I would have been alarmed by the red flag of hostility towards women upfront. Why does he need to "prove" that women can be just as narcissistic or ugly to men?

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Friday August 16, 2002

I'm not sure if time should be wasted trying to "diagnose" Marty or try to determine if he's this or that from the DSM-IV. Rather, let's look at what is apparent. #1: He's pissed. He has probably had a lot of negative experiences, been dumped, or made a decent effort in relationships before, and bad luck has taken its toll. I'm not saying he should be coddled, but there seems to be a point where folks who have patterns of bad relationships reach their limit. To me, it seems like his anger is borne of frustration and hopelessness. He's given up. Self-esteem is not something which can be inflated and deflated like a balloon. Takes work. #2: He's trying to prove that women can be just as abusive as men. Perhaps he feels like no one believes him. Though not on this website, many other online resources regarding abuse are written entirely in the "he-abuser/she-victim" view. There are plenty of nice, decent women (and men!) out there. But I don't think he's going to meet his nice woman until he lets go of the anger over his past experiences. Everyone has their breaking point. You and I have them. Looks like Marty has reached his. I do not believe that Marty is some abuser masquerading as a nice guy, here to terrorize people. I just think the angle of approach needs to be changed. To me, the issue here is not whether or not there are kind women out there. There are. I think if Marty were to concentrate on being the best person *he* can be, and tries to get rid of the anger he shows over past experiences, then he might find people who are happier and healthier for him. Is it possible that this is an example of "victim's anger"?? Abuse begets abuse...if ya don't watch out. How about saying that Marty is a good person; he just needs to remember that. He may be stuck in his anger for a while before he's ready to take a good look at himself. Nothing anyone can do about that. Only he can.

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Friday August 16, 2002

Dear Marty, The tone in your letter is obviously sarcastic and verbally abusive -- judging from your own attempt to bleep the curse words! One can sense your attempt to demean and devalue your reader. I can only imagine how this would go down in a face-to-face conversation. No wonder you are having relationship troubles. Anonymous

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Friday August 16, 2002

Dear Marty, The tone in your letter is obviously sarcastic and verbally abusive -- judging from your own attempt to bleep the curse words! One can sense your attempt to demean and devalue your reader. I can only imagine how this would go down in a face-to-face conversation. No wonder you are having relationship troubles. Anonymous

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Friday August 16, 2002

I think that in many cases, people will live up to (or in this case, DOWN to) your expectations of them. If you assume from the start that they are superficial, self-absorbed users, then that's what you will end up with. Whether or not they really are. Sounds like Marty is pretty angry. I'd have a hard time dealing with someone with such intense anger and preconceived ideas of women. And I AM one of the nice gals under 40.

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Saturday August 17, 2002

From reading the response to the doc, I can see that you are a "Momma's boy". If you are trying to find a woman just like mom, I do feel sorry for you.

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Saturday August 17, 2002

After reading your outburst against the doctor I thought you might enjoy visiting the following web addresses: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml and http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/manip.shtml I think it might help you to feel you are not alone. And anyway, maybe you should look for a woman your mummy's age, that might be worth a try! KDH

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Sunday August 18, 2002

Dr. Irene: RE Marty. I've been a loser in that realm too, But as the old song says.. looking for love in all the wrong places. Personally after all that I've been through. 1. if the woman/man comes from a dysfunctional home and did not deal with it before you then...RUN! 2. give only that which that you can afford to lose, don't give more than that,or you will hate yourself for being a fool. Love is an expendable "thing" and is renewable, time and money are something else. 3. loving someone is one thing, being a surrogate parent is something else,unless it is to actual children. 4. read Vernon Howard and the Bible there is a wealth of knowledge there,for both men and women.. 5. as Dr. Irene said there is an abundance of fear out there and we all are infected with it, mine from the home of origin and Viet Nam, just don't let anyone use them as a means to control/abuse you Nor as an Excuse to Abuse Anyone Else.It's called responsibility, honor, integrity. I'm 53 and scared as Hell of women/intimancy now yet I went back to R.V.N. and said my good-byes to the ghosts of the past and found acceptance/forgiveness I put my limits down to my mother and let her know I loved her but would not accept her infectioness. Now if I can continue to become healthy and find some one to share the marvels of life with then I guess it was worth it. If being alone is what has been ordained for me then I will somehow learn to accept it. Remember one thing... we were born alone and die alone, it's what we do in between that is what makes it.... Still trying to Clark M. Davis

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Sunday August 18, 2002

Hi I just read Marty's comments. Yes, I think he's angry and it's taken a vengeful twist. We all have that in us, it's a way for your mind to fight back and find some sort of protection and perhaps order in the chaos of emotional pain. I think Marty may from the last generation of tradional men and women. I think I am too. The next generation is much more liberated in many areas and there is no moral discrimination in most of these. Marty can enjoy the benefits and sadly, the ugly side of this new liberted society. What am I talking about you ask? Well, look at TV and womens magazines. There is much pressure on women to perform and posture independently in all kinds of ways from work to sexual. Men are often made out as objects to be used, while at the same time women are encouraged to behave like completely immoral tarts. I cannot doubt that there is a feminist catalyst in here but there is also a deliberate intent to apply stimuli, irrepsonsibly, to the primal recesses of our animal brains for maximum effect. Look at mens magazines now. Caught like rabbits in the spotlight of new sexual ethics they don't know what to do, so they are misguided by media that appeals to that psyche. Hey guys, don't get mad, get even. Women are portrayed as sex objects or sexual icons to be conquered. Gratuitous advice abounds on how to coerce your partner into giving you what you want. The point is, between us men and women there is now a growing gap. Where do we get coverage for intimacy, for taking risks that will reward with genuine love? For listening and understanding? Stuff like that doesn't sell magazines or make good influencial TV soaps and programmes. IT's not dramatic enough. Perhaps that is what we have become, a drama society, a sad parody of human relations. Sadly it's an addiction to superficial unhealthy values. Society is a narcissist! You used to hear them say "where's the beef?" Now it's "where's the power?" Marty is a bleeding wound of society's willingness to play the sharp end of our needs. His hurt is a real as anyone's and he is confused as most of us are. Women can be feminine and strong, just like our mothers. But the media tells them to be masculine and take control. Men can be gentle and understanding but the media says go out there and manipulate to get sex because sex is love and women are dangerous. Yes there are nice girls out there but they are getting hurt just like the nice guys. You are all on here now talking. What a pity that being good, being real, is now dangerous to your health.

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Monday August 19, 2002

"I think Marty may from the last generation of tradional men and women". No way, Marty's problem is not that he is such a decent man who can't find a woman of his level because all women are tarts. The good women out there want a man and not a weeping baby. They want an adult and not someone who needs instant and narcistic gratification. I am one of those gals under 40 who would like to meet a guy my age but one that has dealt with his issues, who is independent from his mother and acts like a grown-up. Not easy because so many men are only emancipated in theory. Oh yeah, it's great that their gf works but can she please iron their shirt. Sorry, I work too hard and have hardly time and energy to iron my own shirts so why would I iron his shirts? Does that make me unfeminine? Too many "emancipated" guys are bossy and controlling when you get to know them better. John Gray will probably say they come from Mars and I have to accept it but I don't! And neither do I accept that it is in the genes. We live in 2002 and a man is for me in the first place a human being. I hope to meet one who does not have rigid thinking patterns about what a woman should be. It's not easy but I believe I will meet such a man one day. It won't be Marty though.

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Wednesday August 21, 2002

I attract what I AM.... Planettrout

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Wednesday August 21, 2002

I find his comments pretty judgemental, and it's all someone else's fault.

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Tuesday August 27, 2002

As soon as I read Marty's original letter to Dr. Irene, I recognized a controlling abusive type. My borther is 50 years old. Every woman he has ever dated left him. My brother can't figure out what is wrong with women--they don't stay with him because he is abusive! My brother blames the women's movement ans sites like Dr Irene's. The problem is YOU, Marty. Not the women you are angry at because you can't control them. Sis

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Friday August 30, 2002

Hi all, I have just one thought to add to everyone's comments. I was particularly struck by Marty's inability to accept women who were committed to their careers or jobs in any meaningful way. He said, and I quote, 'I have had some relationships with women and it didn't work out, as these ladies were very self absorbed in their careers and themselves, even though I told them that I care about them and demonstrated a lot of affection'. This seemed very threatening to Marty, which is really too bad. It seems to me that if a woman finds her job, or any pursuit (career or otherwise) meaningful and fulfilling and satisfying, then this only contributes to her healthiness, happiness, and positive outlook, and moreover, makes her a good candidate as a partner. I would think that any woman (and I am female) would find a man who was just as fulfilled in his own life to be a good partner too. It only makes sense that two happy, contented people should be happy together. For Marty to suggest that the relationships didn't work out because the 'self-absorbed' women were not right for him, makes me wonder: Just what kind of relationship were you looking for, Marty? Thanks for listening. This is a good site.

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Friday August 30, 2002

I have a comment for Marty. This writing sounds so much like my officially diagnosed narcisstic personality disorder ex-husband that I'd swear it was him if the life details fit better. Everything is wrong with everyone else, nobody is right "for me", anger, blame, but no recognition of where you might fit into the picture. Your mother's vision of all young women as words I will not say left you a powerful and nasty legacy. And what was her opinion on men? Marty, they say NPD can't be cured, but my own experience with a sample size of one is that therapy can at least give you some new perspectives. Of course, narcissists see the world as being there solely for them, so it's hard to really internalize this stuff, but it can help you at least learn to pretend. Oh yeah - another classic NPD trait is to be seriously projective. Narcissists describe themselves very well when they talk about the flaws of those around them. That really came across in your post.

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Tuesday September 03, 2002

Marty, Marty, Marty - You went out with a woman from work 5 times, slept with her, then dumped her. Of course she was angry with you, and I'll bet angry with herself for thinking you two had something good going. Using a woman for sex often pisses a woman off!!!! Get your momma's opinion on that one!

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Thursday September 05, 2002

I agree with Marty. Marty, become a monk. Interested Reader

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Saturday September 07, 2002

Marty, you are like a can of Raid asking, "Where are all the nice Ladybugs? Why won't they come to me?" Could it be, your noxious fumes repel them? If you want to attract a wonderful woman you have to first believe they exist. Then you have to go out there and emit the right signals; let women know how much you adore them and respect them as a whole. Exude confidence and only engage in healthy words and behavior. Soon enough you will see a trail of potential admirers lining up beside you. Sure, you might encounter a cockroach or two along the way - as most of us do - but eventually you will find your Dream Lady. So as not to sound gender biased, this applies to the Ladybugs, too :)

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Tuesday September 10, 2002

Marty, You are TOO ANGRY!!!!! Find out who you're REALLY angry at - then the world won't look so black and white to you! G.M.

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Monday September 16, 2002

It amuses me that he calls self-sufficient women "narcisstic". I think that he wants a woman to be dependent on him, if they're not then they're "selfish". People and relationships are mirrors, if women say you show no feelings to them, why do you assume they're wrong?

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Wednesday September 18, 2002

Hi Marty, Yes,there are a lot of unstable women, as there are men. However,when you repeatedly attract and are attracted to women of this ilk,you should probably look at yourself.Obviously there is something about these 'types' that you're attracted to.Only you know what though. I tend to have a similar problem with men,but I don't hate all men-Yet. We get what we expect and what we tolerate and we can always walk away;much easier in the early stages of course! Another tip:Don't sleep with somebody until you really KNOW them(No, I'm not a puritan)as nobody likes to be seen naked and be rejected afterwards. Good Luck Julee

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Thursday September 19, 2002

While I agree with some of Marty's points, I do wonder why he seems to encounter all these "narcisstic" women and why he hasn't found a stable woman. There are plenty of nice women out there. Just have to look harder to find them. Sometimes people date a "pattern" of men or females and don't even realize it.

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Tuesday September 24, 2002

Hmmmm I only have one thing to say......How do you expect to keep a "nice gal" with an attitude like that?

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Sunday October 13, 2002

Marty, I got out of a 3 year long relationship with a now, 56 year old woman. It took me nearly 8 months of intense study to figure out what had happened. This one is a classic pathological N.P.D. . Absolutely the most skilled liar I have ever seen. The disorder, from my studies and christian faith, is rooted in a spiritual source. These people have destroyed their own souls. They are emotional vampires. The true living dead. I know that these people almost never seek psychological help. The last thing they want to do is to have to confront who, or rather, what they truly are. I think there are a lot more of them out there than the statistics indicate. I also think that if the truth were known at least as many women as men have afflicted themselves with this disease, which in the final analizis is simply setting themselves up as their own god. I suggest reading the book by Dr. M. Scott Peck, "People of the Lie". I have read it at least 4 times. Even before I got involved with the creature I had read it a couple of times. I was still not prepared for the overwhelming power of it's lies.

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Friday December 20, 2002

Dear Marty, YES YES and more YES. I am 37, my wife is extremely narcissistic, totaly incapable of empathy if it involves her actions. ie: She can NEVER be wrong. This means she stonewalls me on ALL important issues. If I feel hurt by her, I am verbally abused if I bring it up. Her focus is on her career and her children from a previous marriage. I am there just to make her look good. My two closest male friends experiene the same thing in their wives-no nurturing, no empathy, no ability to bear shame, guilt or responsiblity. Women are geniuses at playing the victim. This says it all, a close friend of mine in a new relationship gave his girlfriend an expensive surpirse gift on her birthday. After opening it, she got up and called another MAN to tell him about the gift! My friend was deeply hurt and felt snubbed. When he brought it up with her, her response was classic narcissism, she said it wouldn't have bothered her if he had done what she did, and that if he was feeling hurt by her, then HE COULDN'T BE THERE FOR HER. Unfucking real. I am so sick of the stereo type that women are loving and caring and men are these shallow uncaring boobs. My experience of women of this generation is that they are often deeply narcissistic and have no concept of what it means to be a wife, a true partner. It means admitting when you are wrong, apologizing for hurting your spouse, valuing more than your image. Several of my male friend's wives REFUSE couples therapy, not the other way around. Women want to be treated as demur sensitive creatures but want all the advantages of masculinity, you can' t have it both ways. Sick of narcissism! David

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Friday December 20, 2002

Dear Posters It makes me very sad when I read these boards and people attack and blame the poster for his pain. Much of what Marty said is reflected to me by many many other men. David

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Wednesday February 05, 2003

Women are evolving and fast!!!! Men are adjusting, slowly! True, we're all becoming more selfcentered in a society geared to music, fashion and what the popular media says we should be doing. But women are on a voyage of discovery and growth and it's gaining momentum year after year. The effect appears to be more narscissistic in behaviour. Really I think that it's more to do with living for today and sod tomorrow. As a man, if you needed/wanted, then that's fine. However if through this change process you're not, then you're history....simple as that! Women have no illussion of loyalty these days generally and most have an insidious friend or two tugging at them in the background. Basically, get used to change and except that today's girl is as likely as you to wander or change her mind. Make no commitment to any with regard to children or property no matter how convincing they become. Here are three phrases for you to go forward with: 1. Venus fly trap come preying mantice with chameleon tendancies! 2. Teflon, nothing sticks! 3. What they think, say and do are all heading in different directions And remember....Narcissists have absolutely no real feelings of hurt or empathy for another person but themselves! They are so contradictory that you'll swear blind that you're living with more than one person! It's black today, and don't you forget it...tomorrow it's white and they never said it was black yesterday! Morals, forget it cause they don't have any! But listen to them lambast everyone else's morals! Honesty, they're born liars and two faced with it! Parenting skills.....they really don't have very much and are at best jailers! Giving is just not something that they're really able to do unless there is something in it for them! If they see you as weak, then they'll exploit you ruthlessly until you are of no further value to them. If they see you as strong, they'll suck up to you until they get on top and then you're dead!! There one weakness.......naivety! As long as a narcissist holds you is some esteem and can project through you....they'll believe anything you tell them and will reflect back to you anything that you want....anything!!! It's only when you're seen as weak or soft that they'll turn on you and start the process of denegration and humiliation. You take it because of a love that becomes perverse. I have found myself constantly trying to rationalise....to get to the other side of the problem....but you can't because it's a rainbow!!! The harder you try, the higher the hurdles become in front of you. You are trying to solve issues rationally, when all that they're interested in is creating more chaos and confusion! In there minds, they hide what or why they're doing and just spin the problem around for fun until they're ready to move on what they're really after! Cunning, clever, but naive!! As someone else before me once wrote......run and keep running! Don't look back for one moment and don't believe that you're nuts! If you stay, then I guarantee that you will require medical assistance and plenty of it!

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Monday April 21, 2003

Well Marty, you are right. There are alot of ladies out their who have NPD, and sad to say we fall in love with their false self. NPD is in epedemic proportions especially for women --- the books and the psychologists did not catch up to this yet. You are ahead of your time!

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Tuesday July 08, 2003

N is an afflication with both men and women...but overwhelming so with men. Marty cites the uber-power woman...the woman intent on emersing herself into the personal accolades-material external successes that JOB recognition brings (with corporate perks). Avoid women-men of that nature...a N that gravitates to external superiority, not internal, partnership fulfillment. Avoid the entrapments-markings of an N in both sexes. Position: the N female/male believes that the opposite sex is "evil"...ALL females or males are evil... where, in fact, the evil resides within with an N. Marty, if you believe that all women are evil-"devlish" then you are exibiting traits of the N - and blame projection. Sttaistically, women are NOT career-role-self-obsessed folks...get out there and meet 'typical' women.

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Tuesday July 08, 2003

N is an afflication with both men and women...but overwhelming so with men. Marty cites the uber-power woman...the woman intent on emersing herself into the personal accolades-material external successes that JOB recognition brings (with corporate perks). Avoid women-men of that nature...a N that gravitates to external superiority, not internal, partnership fulfillment. Avoid the entrapments-markings of an N in both sexes. Position: the N female/male believes that the opposite sex is "evil"...ALL females or males are evil... where, in fact, the evil resides within with an N. Marty, if you believe that all women are evil-"devlish" then you are exibiting traits of the N - and blame projection. Sttaistically, women are NOT career-role-self-obsessed folks...get out there and meet 'typical' women.