Comments for Catbox 39

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Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

Hi Steve, I was so encouraged by your post. I can write rationally this morning, giggle. This is courtesy of a drug called Nitrazepan, in the UK anyway. I do not like taking it. It is addictive. I do not wish to be addicted to anything. I do wish to sleep though and so I have to resort to it when finally not sleeping is a greater issue than not taking something to make me sleep. It is however not my best choice. It is my only choice. Herbal stuff doesn't knock me out. Lorazepam doesn't knock me out. Homeopathic pills don't do it and nor does Zopiclone which is the usual doctor's preferred alternative.

I have no idea why, but the majority of doctors will say Zopiclone is not addictive. The reality is that any sleeping pill is and if you look this drug up in a drugs book it says that it should not be taken more than a week.

They do not tell you that.....

Because I have been helping in a mental health resource I have got to know a lot more than I did. Basically the problems people have with anti depressants are not with the ingredient that makes them not depressed. It is the problems with the side effects. Sometimes the side effects are worse than the depression themselves. Less so with the new ones. Side effects typically disappear after a few days or weeks. In any case, they help about 80% of those who take them. Keep in mind that I'm not a medical doctor, I don't prescribe, and I am not qualified to comment on medications. My comments will be restricted to either stuff that is well known, or my observation with clients - which is neither here nor there.

Psychiatrists and doctors (the people medically qualified to prescribe drugs although some other practitioners can if they are qualified as a GP first can only go on the symptoms the patient presents. But all drugs affect all people differently. We ARE all different; so they cannot guarantee the drug is going to work; or that the patient will not suffer side effects. Yes. It's a "shotgun" approach...

Sometimes the side effects are possible to put up with because the drug helps. Sometimes they can be worse than the depression. Yes.

Basically what can happen is that a patient gets prescribed a drug for depression and then as the side effects manifest drugs to diminish the side effects: but then those drugs themselves may have side effects...........

My own example of this was in taking Paxil (Peroxitine) in England. There are people who say this changed their lives. It is an SSRI like Prozac. BUT about 4% of people don't react well to either drug. It can make them suicidal, agitated, unconcerned about important things, spend money like water, able to drink excessive quantities without thinking it affects them, verbally disinhibited, dizzy/drowsy, Insomniac/sexually dysfunctional/ agitated/nervous/give them itches, rashes, hives or joint pain/ sore throats/anorexia/ weight loss/ manic behaviour/ convulsions and abnormal movements. Loss of libido seems to be the biggest problem.

BUT not everyone will have those symptoms. They are mostly rare and ironically seroxat is prescribed for people with problems socialising.........(as well as depression.) (And we all know you are terribly asocial. Giggle!)

So the same drug could do good or harm. It did me an awful lot of harm as it made me anxious, verbally disinhibited, insomniac, spend money and also more importantly suicidal. YUK!

So as all the doctors picked up was the insomnia they prescribed Trazadone. Trazadone can be used in depression. It is used for older people a lot as it is safer for people with heart problems. BUT it is more dangerous to overdose on Trazadone than on Paxil. In some people it causes dizziness/constipation/diarrhea/fainting/ drowsiness/headache/rash/ painful or prolonged erection.

So for me as it was prescribed for insomnia. I lost that symptom to gain a situation in which I was constantly dizzy and fainting. Double YUK!

It could have gone on...I could then had I agreed taken drugs for the dizzzziness and fainting.........

Nobody tells you when you start taking these drugs to tail them off slowly. I stopped the Trazadone as I just couldn't risk any more fainting in front of HKK. The poor kid rang the ambulance once as he was alone with me. He was scared stiff...

When I realised what the Paxil was doing I came off that in a hurry. This is a VERY BAD IDEA A VERY bad idea indeed! but if something is making you feel suicidal then believe me a bad withdrawal is preferable to carrying on.

At least I had a sympathetic doctor who didn't think I was talking rubbish. I have heard of someone who needed to gather loads of information together and take an advocate along to persuade the doctor to stop the medication. That's crazy! Doctors in England "make" you take stuff???

That person was probably much more ill than I was. The reality of the situation here in the UK is that if a patient (I Never fell into this category) in a hospital wants to change medication, it can be difficult. If they refuse to take it then it is possible to section them and then they can be forced to take it. Soon we will have a law in force which will mean someone living in the community could be forced to take treatment of whatever kind under a Community Treatment Order. This is bound to be open to misuse as the reasons for the order are only loosely defined. Scary eh. Yes.

Of course the alternative argument is that people who would be otherwise dangerous would then be safe in the community.

But the point is that not everything affects everyone in the same way.

However, I learnt yesterday that in fact there are anti depressants that have far less side effects than the ones I mentioned as an example....THEY ARE NOT PRESCRIBED AS THEY ARE CONSIDERED TOO EXPENSIVE. The bottom line is cost. YUK!

I am not anti drug. I am pro common sense and patient involvement in their own treatment. YES!

I was lucky because I found a doctor who listened and happened also to be a registered homeopath. She also recognized that I was in an abusive relationship and takes an interest in me as a person. :)

A lot of people and Dr Irene recommend St John's Wort and I wouldn't dismiss that, I saw a visible change in one person I know taking that.

Also I do think that treating simple depression is different from other mental health problems. Oh yes! Manic depressives seem (don't forget I am now talking to lots of people with different illnesses) to be adamant on their need for medication. They need their lithium. This is because they know what is happening to them can be corrected. Something chemical is happening in the brain that needs to be put right. Most of them seem however to alter their own dose until it is right for them and can learn to control the illness. Most manic depressives I've worked with hate lithium because it takes away the "high." People with psychosis get varying treatment. Sometimes psychosis clears up on it's own so medication is not always prescribed. That's not a typical approach in the US. What they don't tell psychotics is about the side effects of the prescribed drugs - not got the info to hand on that.

Because drug companies make money they don't want us to know about that. But something I do notice is that the price of St John's Wort is increasing as it's effectiveness as an alternative for simple depression is becoming more widely known. Surprise!

What else they do not tell you is that drugs are most effective in conjunction with talking treatments. Yes.

I am going to give Jake some credit. He was furious that no therapy was prescribed along with a prescription for anti depressants for me. Yes! I just didn't see how I could get that at the time. There was a years waiting list on our NHS! I figured I would probably be better before that happened....

So Steve, I think as Dr Irene says there is a conspiracy on the part of the drugs firms. I didn't when this got discussed before. I didn't say that. Steve did.

I do think anyone taking any drug should research it for themselves. Here in the UK it is not a legal requirement to list side effects and they certainly don't list the rare ones! Wow! They have to list e v e r y side effect here. Nor for example do they tell people taking Paxil that when they do withdraw from it however fast or slowly they will be left possibly with what those who have done so call "after shock." I get this 6 months later; a weird sensation, very unpleasant, like the whole of your body and brain turns over in a kind of well - given it is hard to describe, shock. It happens to me at night mostly. I never heard about that; but I'm not a medical doctor.

I find it kind of worrying that an anti depressant can still leave some kind of effect in your body so long after.

So all I would say to anyone now is to do a bit of research before agreeing to any drug and just be aware of what the consequences good or bad might be. Always.

Sorry if I have gone on too long about this stuff, cats but I think that information can help a lot. I wish I had had it at the start and then who knows. Maybe I would be taking St John's Wort and my life for the last year or so have been very different. Maybe St. John's wort has the same effects, but we don't know that yet. Etc. Etc., The bottom line is that these drugs/ herbs are an option that help many people over a hump and speed recovery. They make it easier to learn the stuff you need to learn in therapy - assuming there is therapy.

Also however, please note,. One difficulty is that any side effect listed can come from a non related cause and so it is important to give things a reasonable try.

Guess now I am just cautious. I would never tell anyone to come off their medication. I would help them look at the facts and make their own decision. Some people do find the things I did not useful. Medicine is a wonderful thing. It just needs not to be seen as a cure all.

Good grief- a jay lecture. Giggle! See Mel, she knows it's OK to disagree with me!

Meanwhile 'Gordongate." hey Steve, the guy just writes long posts with some stuff that is great and some stuff that is not, and possibly is in a bit of denial - unless he really is (good heavens! I can't remember the guy's name. The ex president involved incognito then I don't think he deserves that!

Dear Heather.

Please don't hoodwink yourself. The content of that email is enough to make anyone worry. It is ok to make mistakes and get out of a relationship. Heather I once had a very dubious relationship with someone when I was a bit younger than you .. well I was 16 and he was 30....he seemed so nice.....I won't go into details but my parents were right about him. I didn't listen; but I had a very lucky escape.

Don't defend a guy whose behaviour is inexcusable.

Dear Dr Irene, It is not that I am taking no medication at all. I do still have the homeopathic Sepia. This does work for me. I had stopped taking it as I felt so much better; but now I am taking it again. I am not saying ''don't take prescribed drugs" to anyone. In fact I am just relieved a friend of mine who does need them has finally got some help). I'm glad it works for you Jay. The US, in my opinion, is slow to catch on with homeopathy and the alternative approaches.

Now Dear Dr Irene and others, what I do need is some input for me.

I guess it is kind of what do I do? except that there is really, financially no choice to leave. So this is about expectations and hope and I know in the end nobody can do anything other than say what they see and kind of give their views on that.

Jake and I have had a really rough time without our own junk. Financially we are ok in the end - or should be soon; but all the money is now in Jake's account and not mine. If I get money from working though it does go into my account and he may say he disapproves but he doesn't ask for it or control it.

He will not get involved in jointly going for a divorce. My solicitor advises against it and when I got to her office I just couldn't do it.

He is not supportive with me, with HKK, but HKK and he do have a good relationship. Also although he won't say anything about her he is the one link I do have with my daughter just now.

He will not 'converse' at all or tell me where he is going. But I do have to say that he has never asked me where I was going. I just usually tell/told him out of courtesy/

He says he has no respect for me. And he won't unless you have respect for yourSelf (treat yourSelf well), and which includes having respect for him, regardless of how he treats you. But I don't think he ever did any way. I don't have much respect for him. BUT this is all in the light of a whole series of traumatic events. I do think we have acted out on each other because of external stresses. Be the family model. Stop this sillyness.

We are not yelling/swearing/ fighting/ throwing stuff at each other.

We are icily polite. But Jake avoids or cuts short any conversation. Jay, let him. Stop trying to change him because you don't like the way he is.

BUT he continues to make my breakfast...... Yes. That is something he can do and wants to do.

He is keeping information from me. Like last night I found out we had been jointly invited to a party, but I never knew that. He doesn't know I know and I am not going to tell him. I wouldn't have wanted to go anyway'. But sometimes he withholds information on HKK. If I were you, I'd go!

This is because he genuinely thinks the family therapist said we should live totally separate lives - he interpreted that as not speaking to each other! I hardly think if the arrangement was to live in the same house that is what she meant. But she signed us off.......so there is no way of getting that sorted. (that is what my complaint was at root, Dr Irene). Listen, I understand your discomfort. Who can blame you? Who wants to be married to an ice cube... But, let it be. He is taking her advice because it suits him, for whatever reason. He's probably tired of arguing. Understand that as frustrating as you find the situation, it has nothing to do with you. The man is surviving. You can't leave, nor do you really want to leave. That's the way it is. But, stop lapsing back into your script that he be somebody he's not! This is what you do over and over and over again to make your situation worse. Yes, it's frustrating. But, Jay, this is reality. And, if you handle it differently and make the most out of what is, it can be OK. (What would interest me most is how he would change if you became OK with how he is....) You know, HKK is pretty smart. Why not ask him what he thinks about your letting Jake "be?"

So we eat in the same room, even watch videos with HKK. He just refuses to do anything jointly and locks himself away if there is any possibility of having to communicate. And you take this very personally and get mad at him. Your only sane option Jay is to accept his terms! And, why shouldn't you? What have you got to lose? But your heartache...

YET he says he doesn't want a divorce.....my solicitor says this is financial; but I genuinely don't think Jake thinks about that. He is mean on a petty level, but the sort of person who doesn't have life insurance or a will. He avoids the big stuff, but pays the bills. He sounds more comfortable in the marriage than you do.

He is now doing some stuff that I have wanted him to do for years.. He is starting to have a social life. It is unheard of for Jake to go to a party..... But, if you were insistent he go, as you are insistent he be different now, that's enough of a reason to make a passive aggressive rebellious type do the opposite... (See the benefits of disengaging?)

We did have a lot of good stuff among the bad.

So now I am tempted. I guess there is distance now between most of the bad stuff. It does fade with the distance. I am no longer controlled. I feel free to run my own life and do my own thing. You are more in charge of your life than you've ever been, and getting better.

But I have these temptations. One of them is that I am almost dead certain (please don't think this one is wishful thinking, Jake's family sees overweight as dangerous), I can lose weight and dress like he likes and cook his food as he wants. So, do it!

I can grow my hair as he likes it again. I can do the little things that he needs not to annoy him. Hmmmm... Maybe you are a passive aggressive rebel too... I can make the house nice again and the garden. I can get some more work. I can keep my voice low and I can use a bike for short journeys and I can grow some of our own food..... Listen, what stuff would you want to do taking him out of the picture? I think much of it - since it sounds like you stopped doing some of this to annoy him (though I realize the depression "stopped" you too).

I can keep baking bread.

He isn't eating it yet, but this is what his mother does.

I can not object to his sorting the rubbish out ecologically Why would you possibly object to what he wants to sort? and I could even stand to lose the dishwasher. Bless you. I'd never give mine up!

The thing is, most of those things I want to do for me anyway. I think I don't because I sort of think 'if you don't love me, why should I? Excellent uncovering of your irrational thinking that causes you to not do what you want to do, ,makes him miserable, and gives him reason to feel angry towards you. Makes lots of sense, huh?

This is in a way all stuff I want to do. But it looks like I am trying to win him back. Yet deep down they are all me. Well, Dear Jay, your body is talking to you. What are you waiting for?

Does this make sense that I feel restricted from doing what is me because of him and also want to do it because of him? Yes. A catch 22 irrational underlying thought. All based on some silly notion of what you interpret as him "loving" or "not loving" you. You know Jay, no matter how much I love Trubble, if the dumb cat kept biting and scratching me and my furniture, my love would begin to pale... Hey! Watch it FakeMommy, hhiisssssssss....

Should I be thinking of leaving or staying given the way he is? As long as you are acting out left and right and not being who you are to spite him, I think you'd be crazy to leave. Work out your junk and your vision will clear. Oh, what a wonderful teacher Jake is for you!

I could of course do the above elsewhere - except it would be too painful to do it elsewhere as it would remind me of Jake. You love him, you silly girl. You know, your body is talking to you, and you've been too stubborn (and full of the irrational, rebellion stuff) to listen. Your body knows. Clear out the head and listen.

HOW do you get things normalized in your own life? I do think Jake is depressed. Well, can you blame him? How would you feel if the woman you loved, your teenage sweetheart, went out of her way to be what you hated, and she hated, just to spite you? Wouldn't you get depressed? (And cut her out; ignore her, etc., etc., etc.) I know I have been and how much do you let what happened or happens in what I think for me was something temporary affect your feelings for the other person?

Maybe the thing is I do feel on top of life again in many ways. I didn't live and let live before. I do think I can be ok with Jake as he is or not as the case may be. I know now it is not about me. No. Taking your power is one thing. But don't confuse your rebellion (irrational automatic thinking) with taking your power. The idea is not to more freely do what you know annoys him when it is just to spite him. That's not taking care of the Self. That's getting even. Get a handle. Start loving Jay. Start being the wonderful woman Jay is...

So am I right in working at things. Or am I as happens in the insecure moments am I fooling myself and are things too far gone and have they become too abusive to change? Giggle... Have you become too abusive to change?

What Jake does do. 1. makes breakfast. 2. pays the bills. 3. says good morning (ironically we argued over this for years. He just never did and I found it offensive). 3. provide the food if not on my terms) . 4. Not swear at me. (boot on the other foot there, he has never sworn in his life!). 6. do all that housework (OK it is a control issue but I don't have to let it be any more). 6. fix the computer. 7. get prescriptions at night. 8. ...I have run out.

Lynn started the catbox on Dan's one thing he gave her (being cleaning the catbox). It may have been disastrous but Jake was for a while going to therapy. And then it became clear how Lynn was trying to control Dan. And the more she controlled, the more he became passive aggressive. These two need some help to disconnect from their destructive dance. Dan has to take control of his life and Lynn has to get out or butt out.

So given that the above is all I am getting out of the relationship just yet do I keep trying or do I call it a day???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Sorry this has to be so long. But only the catbox cats really know the whole story and how my thinking has progressed. I don't think that any counselor here could know as much.. ever....

So is this relationship worth working on any more or am I just not accepting the inevitable? Thanks in advance for any input (even from Gordon!) Well, you'll never know until you clean up your act, will you?

Love, jay Let me know if this helps...

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

Hello to all the catbox folks. Sis here.

I just realized that I dislike some of Gordon's behaviors because it reminds me of myself. Maybe that's why I think of his behaviors as transparent. Excellent! You are letting Gordon be your teacher!

In 1978,twenty-five yrs ago when I was 28 yrs, I volunteered to be a crisis counselor in our local community crisis center. The training was intense, but I made it. I remember some of the trainers constantly calling me on my defensiveness any time they gave me feedback. I had such a need to do everything perfectly. If I did not perform perfectly, then that was proof to me that I was flawed. I see this in my brother to the extreme. If he says he likes chocolate ice cream and you say you like strawberry, he perceives this as an attack--that you're really saying it's not okay for chocolate to be his favorite. He translates that into trying to tell him something is wrong with him.

Anyway, going thru thru the crisis counseling training helped me. Then I went into group therapy. My defensiveness and need to explain myself decreased, my need for perfection less.

Ten years later, at the age of 38 I discovered cognitive therapy--David Burns, and Ellis. WOW!!!!! I traveled 2 hrs one way for individual sessions with a CERTIFIED cognitive therapist who had trained under David Burns. I did all the homework he assigned. Giggle! I just turned 51 and can now say that many of my negative automatic thoughts and false beliefs have been replaced by new automatic thoughts. I wish I could say I had this transformation overnight, but it still takes practice. Constant self-monitoring, over and over, until it becomes a habit. And then, you find another one!

What I found especially helpful were the "What law of the universe states that......?" For example, what law of the universe states that everyone must like me at all times? Or, what law of the universe states that everyone must have the same opinion/belief that I have? Is there a universal law that states it's not okay for me to be wrong? BTW, I also noticed that my anger level dropped the more I practiced cognitive therapy techniques. YES! This is very powerful stuff, despite how simplistic it sounds.

However, having said all of this, I still stand firm on how I perceive Gordon's behavior because I see it in my brother and in myself. A better way of saying "I don't like Gordon," would be to say "I don't like many of Gordon's behaviors." I still strongly believe, Gordon, that you have issues to work on, and some false beliefs that are making you so angry. Best wishes, SIS Sis, it's fine to say you don't like Gordon's behaviors (that they push a button), and that in your opinion he's got stuff to work on. We in fact agree on the latter. The difference is that I don't have a button here, so I can tell Gordon what I see - with love. Or tell you same. Both of you have a button, I think. And, with love, I ask both of you to look at your respective junk, letting each teach the other - for the sake of yourSelves.

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

OH HELP! what an awful day. I finally see that I have parents I should never ask for help. I won't go into details but they deny their abusive behaviour towards me when I was young. My mother's parting shot today was that she was told I was schizophrenic! Actually I have all my medical notes and absolutely nothing like that in them at all right from very young. You're doing it again Jay. You are insisting the people in your life see things your way. You refuse to let them be...

Do now I know I have a mother who lies. I really knew this already and a father who denies his abuse of me. Fine. That's neither here nor there. They have problems, are doing the best they can, and, besides, you don't live with them.

I have had enough. Why I asked them for help, I do not know. Some perverse thing that just hopes one's parents will be different. But it's not. So stop hoping and trying to change reality. It's disrespectful to other to insist they change. You can give your opinion, then let it go. There is no other sane choice Jay. (I don't find knocking your head against the same wall repeatedly to be sane. They won't eventually "hear" you. In fact, you have a better shot at being heard if you accept them for who they are.)

Then Jake finally agreed to listen for 3 minutes...but HKK came in and he said it wasn't the right time. Judging by your mood, I'd say your kid did you a favor.

I am just so sad and fed up and confused today.. I am sick of bad days when all I want is for someone to care about things and something not to go wrong. So stop fighting yourSelf.

Jake told me today to get a boyfriend. That really hurt. I wouldn't want anyone but Jake anyway as he is my children's father. This is why you should not talk when either of you is angry. You are likely to say things in anger and hurt the other needlessly.

I am feeling so down and confused. Oh well. This is the catbox. I will live to tell the tale another day. Just needed to offload I guess as I think I feel so deserted....jay Please read my comments several times if need be. Think about it. OK?

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

my wife says I'm an abusive controlling monster, I agree that I have done a lot of what an abuser does. but she was having an affair with a married guy from work when she told me it was over and things are very mixed up. I am not denying that I did verbal abuse her at times over the years Maybe that's why she had the affair? Not that she acted OK, but something for you to think about. but I'm mot sure how valid her total characterization is considering she is trying to cover up her affair. What she's trying to do is her problem. I think you need to start looking inside and stop crowding your head with what she's done. Take care of yourSelf, and the rest falls into place...

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

Hi All, Well, I didn't have the greatest weekend with my partner. He is very depressed about us all not being together and I'm sure about many other things as well, like finances, job, vehicle.... He began talking very negatively and accusing me of thinking he's a loser, he was sarcastic and disrespectful of my feelings for the most part of the weekend. I managed to just "do nothing" and think about how annoyed I was that he was in this kind of mood, and frustrated knowing that there was nothing I could do but wait for the next comment. I just tried to focus on my garden (my pride and joy) and just enjoy the fact I was back at "our" home for the weekend (I really love the house, property, gardens) Oddly, I didn't become emotional until he apologized. Which he did several times over the weekend. I broke into tears when he apologized, not so much because I was sad, but because I am relieved that he sees what he does. But he was OK with my blubbering and told me he wanted me to know he was sorry for what he said and that he does realize it hurts me and that he knows it isn't right and wants me to know that he recognizes what he is doing and is trying to change. I give him credit for at least being rational and taking responsibility for his behavior without me having to say anything. He hasn't been at all violent (I really believe it was the Paxil causing that). And as I told him, lately those kinds of comments don't bother me because I know better than to listen, but that this weekend in particular I didn't want or need it. I don't know why that is, maybe hormones or the way the planets are aligned, I don't know. And he doesn't get like this all the time, it is when he is very depressed.(no excuse for abusive behavior, I know) I personally believe that if it weren't because we aren't all living together that it would be another issue depressing him, and I know he has told me that he has no confidence in himself. I think it is like my own therapist told me, it sounds like out of all the counselling and therapies that he has tried in the past no one has ever helped him work on his own self-esteem, or grief issues. Anyway, I hate to see him depressed, but I know better than to try and help him feel better. That would (to him) be invalidating his feelings. I hope I'm not being insensitive, but he needs to find someone else to vent to. I believe that we should be there to support each other, but I also believe there comes a point where it is too much for one person to take on, especially when I have to listen to resentment and anger directed at me whether he apologizes for it or not. He thinks like Steve does about meds, he's tried several. I witnessed him become a raging, irrational, agitated, person on Zoloft and Paxil and would much rather he were depressed than go through that again. He went through terrible withdrawal when his dr. took holidays after refusing to renew his prescription of 60 mg/day without seeing him first, even though he couldn't get in to see him before he left for his holidays. So after realizing the terrible side effects and going through what Jay calls brain shock (he said it felt like his brain was bleeding) among other terrifying withdrawal symptoms, he has basically the same philosophy as Steve that meds just mask the feelings and set him back further. I am willing to stay in this relationship because I do believe in him, more than he believes in himself maybe, but since he recognizes what he does and wants to change I'm hoping that he finds the way to do that. Meanwhile, even though there is abuse at times (even my own responses to him), I look at the big picture and still see a very functional family that benefits more from being together than from being apart. Despite his depression, I would move home if he at least can take the steps he needs to in order to legally be in contact. I don't think depression is a good enough reason to end a relationship. I will not however put up with a single violent episode but I strongly believe that it won't happen again. I'm going to rent my house out, so I at least will have somewhere to go if need be. My mother says this is because I must have doubts. I just figure it is the best idea anyway, a good investment as well as another home, in town, in case the need should arise to move (for any reason). My first husband C, told me I was stupid to go back to W, and I told him I was not stupid, I just have a big heart and give people the benefit of the doubt. Good answer eh? I thought so anyway. At one time his comment would have made me angry. Well, thanks for letting me share. In my last post I told how I cope with this situation. This past weekend is proof that depending on our own emotional state it isn't always easy to just detach from our partners and do what makes us happy. It is OK though, just proof that we are empathetic human beings but also at times more sensitive to our own feelings/less able to be sensitive to others. It might seem to my partner that I'm insensitive to his feelings, but I have to take care of me first. Which I guess is better than being codependent and becoming resentful or angry. I hope this makes sense to somebody besides me but in any event I feel better for writing it. Writing helps to clear the head when one begins to overanalyze things. Take care All, Mel

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Sunday, June 10, 2001

Hello,

My house has been under seige for about 10 years now, escalating from small annoyances to chipping away at my bricks, scratching my brand new car 4 times in 1 year, loosening cemented in lamp posts and fence posts - repeatedly, cracking boards on my new stockade fence, scratching and denting my shutters on my front porch, etc. He is well insulated from the law even if I could catch him. Only 16 and has mental problems. He steers clear of my surveilence camera and has covered it or shined a flashlight into it on another occasioin. Any information on Psycopaths? I think he is one. I am seriously considering moving. Can't be in a WAR in which I cannot strike back or hardly defend myself ...(under our LAWS). Help! J.R.

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Just a quick word Mel

Think twice about moving back in too quickly.

If he is really interested in healing, he'll hang in there and stop guilting you about it.

Having some space and distance is just as good for *him* as for you.

This way you can take the time you need to prove to him and to yourself, that you really won't accept abuse. (i.e. you can back off easily, without going on the "roller coaster")

These things take a **long** time to heal, and having the space to think and live as empowered individuals instead of enmeshed codependents can be an excellent way to begin the process.

(And you don't need to justify anything to your mom, either. Or to us for that matter.)

Another note - it helps to focus less on how he "ticks" and more on what makes *you* tick. When I started to think about my own needs, desires and issues, a burden really lifted for me. I think we treat these guys like charity cases sometimes, and we need to give them more credit than that.

take care

Asha

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Monday, June 11, 2001

dear Dt Irene,

(That's crazy! Doctors in England "make" you take stuff???)

That isn't quite the case. Basically I would not have been made to as I didn't fall into a medical category which would have led there. All patients technically have the right to refuse meication. However, what does happen is if a patient is a voluntary patient in a psychiatric hospital refuses medication then very often the doctors will section them rather than discussing a change of medication. I knew that the week I was in hospital and because I have seen it happen I wasn't taking any chances! I have seen, as I worked in a hospital for a while, people held down and restrained and medicated for nothing other than disagreeing with a staff member.

Technically the patient can always refuse medication but the way the law works they can overule that under a section. So that means even if the patient objects to the side effects then that isn't going to be a lot of good.

The new proposed laws which are highly likely to go through will mean that a patient in the community could be forced to take the medication. My previous doctor would not listen. There is a tendency for professionals who have never taken the drug themselves to refuse to listen or just say "oh well it is the side effects...."

Almost all advocacy in hospitals surrounds either trying to over turn a section or to change medication. When I told the doctor about the Trazadone fainting and dizziness I was told it was stress......

I don't think anyone would have sectioned me for refusing to take medication as I wasn't in the right 'category' but mistakes do get made. I just knew more than most patients. EG I fainted and came round to hear a nurse saying she "threw herself on the floor!' I knew enough to ring the consultant and calmly say what had happened, He came and immediately sorted the problem. Most people don't when in hospital have that kind of self advocacy skill.

I knew I was there very short term and my experience was kind of a once off emergency after what my daughter did so I got rather different treatment ( they believed me and thought it was a dreadful situation.) But I did see patients very unable to state what were quite rational views.

I will have to read the rest of your post again. But I do think Jake is the abusive one. I just gave up in the end as I didn't feel like I could be me. But, now you know you can. You do have points to make but don't forget all the really bad stuff he did and does not take responsibility for......all I am trying to do is make the best of an awful situation Acknowledged. and find out again what is me. Love, jay That may be, but you're missing the point. It's not about who is the "bad guy" so to speak; it's about what can you do to increase your personal power and make your life more rewarding... What you are doing now is bringing yourSelf down in your anger at him, the unfairness of it all, etc. Yes, it is unfair. Yes, you are angry. Yes, you have reason for your anger, etc., Still, why continue same ol' same ol' - when you don't have to AND WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK! Makes no sense. Irrational... Jay, look at this one carefully. THIS IS BIG!

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hi Jay,

I feel a case of dayjarvu coming on.

YOU could be me. lol. It was only when I realised that the reason I wasn't doing was because I wasn't having my partner run my life. SO to spite him. (YES you are doing this with Jake!!!) I did nothing and do you know I was still unhappy. (Does this ring bells!!)

Well the solution was to realise I need to do these things BECAUSE I DESERVED THEM, THEY WERE PART OF MY TAKING CARE OF MY WORK IN PROGRESS.

"all about me, it is all about ME"

My appearance, my issues, my reactions, my feelings, my behaviours, my actions. THEY are all about me. MY JOB IS TO SEE WHAT ISSUES THESE THINGS ARE PRODDING!!!

So drop the need to not do things, cuz you think that YOU ARE RUNNING your life by not doing them. (Adolescence springs to mind when we act like this - its I am not doing what they want me to do, I'll spite them.)

Well wake up friend it is only you, you spite in the end. Would fixing your hair improve your life? Would you feel better? Would losing weight improve your life? Would you feel better/

Would dressing a certain way improve your life? Would you feel better?

Would cleaning your space improve your life? Would you feel better?

Remember it is all about you, for your benefit, if it benefits JAY, it is Jay's duty to herself and her maker to do IT, she is work in progress. She isn't to spite Jake to put her life on hold.

GET the picture. It is one of those ARRRRRRR moments. When it comes you get it.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

THINGS you like about other people are things you just need to organise in yourself. Such as punctuality, self control etc.

Things you hate about others are things you need to fix in yourself.

Take care Theressa

(Sorry doc all the quotes I put in for food for thought. Didn't sign them though. This was about me being able to give without doing it for rewards, but I guess it is good to sign)

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hi Jay,

My partner used to say "go get another boyfriend Theressa do me a favour" this was his way of pushing me away and hurting me. JAY see it as it is just another angry dig from Jake, (more sad throwing).

Jay if you start to get centered on what you want to fix in JAY's life for Jay the less you'll feel so overwhelmed.

Remember the other month when my world was caving in, your supported me, now please heed your advice. GET centered and grounded on working on JAY. See my last post.

Love Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hi All,

My awareness is coming as I look thro' the things that bug me. I am really learning alot about me. I am feeling my feelings and knowing that for now I am fine where I am. DO YOU know getting back with my partner was the best thing for me.

He is my best teacher. Best button pusher. WOW wait till I tell Ron, I realised this.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Experiences:

how are you graded? Well, ask yourself, what have I learned? What have I taken from this particular event or experience that resonates deeply and positively within the inner depths of my consciousness that says, "Yes, this is right."

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Dear Heather,

Your situation sounds very familiar! I thought the articles about the narcissistic abuser were very helpful, as well as Evan's book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship". Have you read them? I think you are in a very dangerous situation, so who cares why he does these things. Focusing on his problems will keep you from dealing with the abuse and your job of getting yourself to a safe place - away from him! The fact is he does abuse you, and you need to be safe. I used to try to figure out why, as if it mattered. There was nothing I could do to help him. I could only help myself.

I don't think there's anything that someone could have said to me to get me out of the denial and make me realize I deserved better. I didn't leave until I had enough and got my strength up to make that move. I hope you take care of yourself and find that strength!!

Suzanne

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Monday, June 11, 2001

THIS STUFF IS AMAZING ARRRRRRR STUFF:

Emotional system (JAY!!!!!!! I HOPE YOUR READING this is especially for you)

Emotional feelings (anger, hurt, resentment, disappointment, [all emotions you feel] are not caused by the experiences you have.

E.G Jake, your daughter, or HKK.

so forget: "something happened to make me feel"

The truth is we have emotional feelings energy inside of us. (some of it is trapped and needs working through to release it)

These feelings (energy) get changed into electro magnetic enegry and attract others with the same feelings as us. (HENCE LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE- insecurity attracts insecurity)

HENCE if you are angry (you attract anger). This is why bravenet and other boards full of angry victims stay stuck. Nothing changes until the victim looks at their own issues that are attracting their abusers.

Jay, look at each interaction and see how you feel. If you feel angry, why do you feel angry. What behaviour are you seeing in JAKE that you need to fix in you.

For example last night I watched a tv programme (Coronation Street), Jay you probably know this one. A young boy was telling some past foster parents of how he was abused by his step-father.

This child was affraid to act. He was always walking on eggshells. He was blamed, criticised and thought he was worthless. I WAS SO, SO ANGRY AT THIS STEP-FATHER for blaming, shaming, not letting this child make mistakes and hurting him.

WHY Was I so angry. I was angry because these are issues in me. I am working on issues of not letting myself and others make mistakes. I blame Melissa and others, (Yes Ron also) when things go wrong in my life. Therefore, Melissa walks on egg shells. Infact so do I somewhat still. When I don't allow mistakes and accept them, Melissa feels shameful and this hurts her self esteem which I know is so fragile.

You see Jay we get angry at things we see in ourselves on some level.

For example: You say you want to be cared for, and then you complain Jake helps too much in with the housework.

Do you get the issue here? This is helping you face up to your fear of not wanting to be responsible for your own life.

Take care, Jay I really do get it now about all the answers being inside.

Ron will be pleased!! But not as pleased as I am right now. Thank you Dr Irene and all of you for being here for me.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Who's issue is it??

BOTH of yours since you both attract each other.

Gosh for years this bothered me, well now I know, so no excuses for blaming one person or the other. THEY are both responsible.

Yippeee!! I finally am getting it.

All I have to do now is face my fears of cats. Trubble you come stay at my house??

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 11, 2001

There are only 3 ways to change the trajectory of our lives for better or worse: crisis, chance, and choice. You may not realize it, but your life at this exact moment- it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, or who's getting ready to jerk your chain- is a direct result of the choices you made once upon a time. Thirty minutes or thirty years ago.

Did you balk at the thought of having to make 365 choices in order to span the distance between your dreams and their coming true? It seemed an enormous obstacle to overcome, didn't it? But actually, if you just decide to get out of bed, show up to make breakfast, get the kids to school, and get to work on time, you've already made more than 3 choices, and it's not even 9:00 in the morning. I would conservatively estimate that most women make a dozen choices a day- 4,380 decisions a year. Now, don't you think that 365 of those choices can be ones that move you toward an authentic life? I know they can! Our choices can be conscious or unconscious. Conscious choice is creative, the heart of authenticity. Unconscious choice is destructive, the heel of self abuse. Unconscious choice is how we end up living other people's lives. "The most common despair is not choosing, or willing, to be oneself, but the deepest form of despair is to choose to be another than oneself." (Soren Kierkegaard) This is how we always hurt the one we love. The one we shouldn't hurt at all. Our Self. Sarah Ban Breathnach

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hello, This is Debbie. I got the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and am starting to read through it. When I read a book I skimm through all of it first then go back and read the whole thing front to back. Anyway I am quoting from Theressa in the next paragraph below for some clarity of what is said.

>Things you hate about others are things you need to fix in y>ourself.

>Take care Theressa

Can you tell me what it is that I need to fix if I hate the way my husband pushes my hand away when I want to hug him in the morning before we get up to start our day? (This is not just one or two insidences but just about 90% of the time that I reach out for him this way.)

Boy this book is very good! I think it is the best thing that I have bought for mysalef in a long time!!!

I see the signs of his verbal abuse in this because he will get very upset with me when I try to get a reason as to why he pushes me away. This last time was last weekend when we were camping and I rolled over to hug him and he pushed me away. I did not say anything because I was trying to rationalize as to what I was going to say before I said anything. I hinted araound at what sex meant to him and he told me and he also told me how I felt about it. He was partly right, but I told him how I felt about it between us. Then I asked him why he pushed me away. He would not give me an answer. By the time we were almost home (we were only 2 hours from our home and I didn't start the conversation until we were about 1/2 way there) he got upset because he thought that I waited until we got home to discuss this. He also got very upset when I finally told him that I thought he didn't want my love or affection. Ohhh that was the bad part. He was very upset when he said that we always go in circles because we never get this problem fixed and he wanted to stop the conversation then. This time (it has been several times) I thought that I would not let it go and said tht it doesn't get fixed because we never get to the point that we can continue because one of us always wants to stop. We got in the parking lot and he was real angry and said that he had to take a walk. (This problem is like a festering inside my body and it won't go away until he admits that he has a deep seated fear of love from another person.) He walked and I took a shower and got dressed and he came back into the apartment. He was still very angry and we yelled at each other and he cornered me against the kitchen counter and yelled at me and used his hands in his gestures. I tried to do what our counselor told me to do and that was to abate his use of anger, but it didn't work and he got even angrier. He went to the bedroom and I yelled into him that "I am not like all his others that have left him". He yelled something back and then came out into the living room and Picked me up off the couch and tried to drag me to somewhere. I went limp and He managed to drag me over the coffee and end tables and I landed on the floor. He kept calling me a "whiner" and he told me that I was just being selfish for wanting something right then and there and not getting it. This is when he went back to the bedroom and I really didn't know what to do. He said that I had to make a decision as to what I wanted to do. He came bac and laid down on the couch and I just sttod there in the hallway looking out of the sliding glass doors and I couldn't get my body to move. Sorry this is so long but I had to let it out.

Debbie

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hey Cats,

Gosh, If a guy told me to go get another boyfriend, I would! At least one if not two or three. For me, that's the ultimate in pushing away.

Jay, it sounds like you are doing better than Jake right now. I know he is making you crazy, but I have to admit that my heart got kind of soft to hear that he's making you breakfast and to read the things that he does do. It sounds to me like he is loving you in the only way he can right now. You have, together, been through some serious traumas between losing your friends and your daughter's problems. Hang in there, Jay, and keep doing those things that you do do together around HKK, and eat your breakfast and enjoy not having to do housework. I would try to silently work through my own stuff and let him deal with his. Do it for HKK, who sounds like such a joy and who obviously wants his family back. This is probably NO help! But i see some lights at the end of the chunnel, and some blessings to be counted!

I learned a lot from my little run-in with my friend about my clothes. Please, nobody groan that I am ditching my feminist stance, but I decided it wasn't worth it to risk our relationship on a lot of levels by complainin, because he was trying to be loving and I would like to practice looking at the composite picture rather than reacting about a single issue. Cognitive behavior sounds really good and I think I will find me one of them therapists while I am in the US for 2 months (and cram it in and hope for the best). My ex used to complain that I didn't give him enough credit for the good things he did, and he is right, but his abusive habits were real insidious and he had a LOT less lovingkindness to offer than my new friend.

Heather, RUN, RUN RUN!! My ex was like a prison guard. He had to keep me there although he made me feel like the lowest of the low, and I also often wondered (AND ASKED HIM) why he wanted to be with me if I was such a bad person. You got really lucky that he decided to be single. Let the river take you - he did all the work for you! don't blow against the wind! If I sit here long enough I will come up with some more proverbs! And the driving thing - do you want to die? No!! And him telling you he is a sociopath: He is telling you about himself, just as if he said he likes baseball! don't dispute what he says about himself! It's hard to let go because this type of guy leaves us feeling like we did something wrong, and we would like to make it right, or that there's something wrong with us, and we want to make it better and make ourselves better people, but you can't do it with this guy!! Good luck and keep posting!!

Where is Sharon?

Adding to the discussion on meds. I was on Celexa for almost 6 months, and I found that I didn't care about anything at all. That's when I took incompletes in all my classes, gained more weight, got bad reviews from my students, and generally felt more depressed and hopeless. I also dumped both my boyfriend and my shrink while on Celexa and felt better afterwards. I have also been prescribed Prozac twice, but for weight loss. The first time I took it, I becamse extremely aggressive and hostile, so I stopped it after only 3 days. It wasn't a case where I could take it for 6 weeks to get used to it. I couldn't handle feeling that hostile. Needless to say, the second time it was prescribed, I threw the prescription away.

I am really interested in meds because my thesis is about a type of traditional healing, and I've been looking at meds to know what they do and how they make people feel. I know they help a lot of people, but for some they seem to be a different type of prison. I try not to be biased because of my personal experiences. My university rushes to medicate everyone so that they don't blow the opportunity of graduating from such an important place (and to reduce the number of serious psychiatric cases because of the intense pressure to achieve). I am not comfortable with this apparent rush to medicate, but that's the way psychiatry seems to be heading lately. But, since this seems to be International Proverb Day, for every movement in one direction, there is always a swing back. Anyway, I enjoyed hearing about people's experiences with meds because I know how much they help many mnay people and families (because the sufferer isn't the only one in the picture!).

Saturday I leave Paradise for the US, if only to move my stuff back to Paradise! Much stress about the journey, seriously mixed emotions...

Love, Perdida

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Monday, June 11, 2001

HI Debbie,

The kinds of things Theressa was referring to are more like annoying little behavioral quirks - I can't even think of any right now. But what your husband does is not something you can fix in yourself! And it doesn't sound like a "little quirk"!! It sounds like what you need to fix is the fact that you are in a very dangerous living situation with a scary violent man. It sounds like you need to develop a plan to get out before he really harms you. Please keep posting here! and keep reading!

Good luck! Perdida

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Monday, June 11, 2001

Hello. My name is Kathy and I’ve been lurking here off and on since last August. I used to post on the bravenet boards as kathyg.

I also am a member of the parentinghurts board that Jay set up.

Just a few words about my past: I left my verbally abusive boyfriend last December. I also have a daughter who just turned 18 who put me through so much garbage. I also have a 15 year old son with Downs’ Syndrome and a son with my boyfriend who will be 2 in August.

Anyway, the past is done and over with.

I have come to the realization that I am codependent.

I am still working on this…about why I get my sense of self from my perception of interactions with others instead of my view of ME, who I am inside, what I like. Who am I really? My boyfriend’s comments used to define who I was – I didn’t cook anything right, always wore dark clothes, etc. That used to provide me with my definition of ME.

I am still involved with him and I am working on not trying to control the relationship and not letting his behavior towards me affect my feelings of worth. I cannot fix him, change him, make him do exactly what I want. He is who he is. The only person I can change is ME. When he says something that I don’t like, I can let him know I didn’t like that. If he continues to do or say things I don’t like, then I have the choice to walk away from him. Now that I don’t live with him, it is much easier to accomplish this!

I am also working on ME to fix my relationship with my daughter. I cannot fix her either. I cannot make her go to school, get a job, do something with her life besides laying on the couch and talking on the phone. BUT now that she’s 18, I don’t have to put a roof over her head and feed her either. Choices!

It is very difficult to really learn these lessons. <Sigh>, my head knows these things, yet I still fall back into the same bad patterns of thinking and behaving at times. Someday, I hope, it will all be automatic.

Debbie…just wanted you to know that my boyfriend was the same way about affection. Pushing me away. Never wanting to hug, kiss, etc. Just know that it is HIM, not you. He has a problem. It bothers you, I’m sure but you can’t fix it. The best thing you can do is to become the best SELF that you can be. Your comment about “not leaving like the others” is exactly the way I was – I was going to love this man “no matter what” and be his everything – even at my own SELF’s expense. Nope, I can’t go down that road anymore. As for what you should do, I think you should figure out what your inner self is telling you.

Theressa…..you sound like you are finally figuring all this self stuff out. Congratulations!

Jay…my friend from the parentinghurts board…take a step back from your home situation. Look at it as it truly is. You cannot fix Jake…you cannot fix your daughter. The only person you can fix is YOU. Realize that they have some issues that they both need to work out and that you need to fix your own stuff without involving their stuff. (You know what I mean?) Look inside yourself and make your decisions based on what you see there. Define yourself as a person from the inside. I am reading a new book from the library written by a personal coach or some such job title. Her whole book is devoted to helping people who aren’t happy figure out a way to be happy by focusing on SELF-care. Listening to your inner-self and letting it define who you are and from there making decisions to balance your life.

Dr. Irene….thanks for all the information you share on your website. I can’t tell you what a sense of enlightenment it gave me when I started reading through all the information here. My counselor was amazed at how fast I figured out what was going on once I found the info on this site. I no longer go to a counselor (I graduated!!!) but am still a “work in process” (forever!).

Kathy

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Monday, June 11, 2001

I have been married for nearly 16 years. I am so tired of tiptoeing around my spouse. He flies off the handle easily and calls me Lard Ass, my son Dumb ass or Pussy and my daughter Stupid Ass or moron. Everytime I try to tell him not to call them names he always states "It's always me, you never take my side" Why is there a side to choose. How can you be nearly 40 years old and say that? I feel bad that I have let my children been called those names. When he get's mad at them, which is usually an everyday or everyother day ordeal. We always wonder in what kind of mood he is going to be in today when he arrives home from work. I try to give him an example such as "Would you fly off the handle at work and call your co-worker the names you call us and push and shove them? My son is ranked #1 in his school and plays sports. But I'm afraid my husband is going to tear down his confidence before he graduates from high school. My son has high plans on working for NASA. My daughter does great in school and is looking forward to playing sports. I just want to make sure she doesn't end up in a relationship that I am in. When my husband is speaking or asking the kids questions, he begins to sound like a drill sargeant and they get nervous and can't speak. When I try to answer my husband tells me to shutup I wasn't talking to you. How do or what should I do?

Gogirl

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Tuesday, June 12, 2001

Forget it. I can't do it. I think the answer is that the impact of my daughter's accusatons is something it is not possible to recover from and can't be understood by anyone at all except someone who has been through the same thing, I n a nutshell a lying child who doesn't want boundaries can destroy the life of any adult and there is no help out there for anyone in that situation. it is no use saying put it behind you. You can't. It soesn't happen like that. Noe is there any pouint in even bothering about someone like Jake. He just enjoys hurting and if I had the money I would leave right now. I could go to the moon for him and it would still be wrong. I just don't have a family any more and what is the point of trying. Jake is systematically ruining HKK too. Noone in their right senses goes on with this. I don't think there is any more point in even trying just now . Any effort that does happen is on my side and I can't fight a one man band. Jay

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Tuesday, June 12, 2001

Dear Debbie,

I think you misunderstood the quote. When we first enter recovery the ideas are sometimes misunderstood, it is part of the process.

Debbie, you used the quote: "Things you hate in others are things that need fixing in yourself"

OKAY, bearing that in mind. Do you think it is your partner "ONLY" who has a problem? (answer victims in early recovery would say) YES.

That is the wrong answer. YOU and your PARTNER have different problems. Both linked to insecurity. Fear of rejection.

You have been taught to keep on trying, (If at first you don't succeed try, try again.) WELL in relationships this technique is not correct.

If you aren't succeeding change your behaviours to more healthier ones. Is the correct statement.

Now Debbie, you are trying to "FIX" your partner, you are trying to counsel him and sort out his problems. (Co-dependency traits) You are hungry for someone to cuddle you and tell you that you are okay. You show your neediness.

These are all part of the (Co-dependents issues), Debbie if you were stood by a fire and it was burning you, you'd move away. BUT if your partner is pushing you away, you continue to try to get close to him. IS THIS THE RIGHT THING TO DO? NO.

You see Debbie the more you struggle to get close to him, the more he struggles to be alone. He fears too much closeness. You fear not being needed.

DEBBIE next time he pushes you away, and shows you he doesn't want to discuss it. DROP IT! say "okay that your choice". When you stop trying to fix things, they happen the way they are suppose to.

Look at it like this: "There is a lamp hanging from the ceiling, quite low down you keep hitting your head off it." Eventually you see you can avoid it. THIS is what you need to do. You need to avoid fixing and trying to convience, explain and counsel your partner.

When you detach, the abuser zips back to you. They always want what they can't have. BUT they don't want it when it is freely given in a needy way.

WHEN he pushes you away, pull away without creating a fuss. THEN go off and concentrate on doing things to improve your life. If thoughts about the pulling away (such as your keep thinking about it) try to continue what you are doing. THIS is centering, still getting on with your life.

When you do this you are not struggling. When you stop struggling but work through your feelings, and learn to get centred you have learnt your lesson so these experiences will lessen.

A lesson in many forms keeps coming until you learn it.

SO Debbie going back to the lamp. If I just move it and get on with my life without creating a fuss without struggling the lamp will stop hurting my head from banging into it. I would have learnt the lesson.

The same is for you. When you stop trying to fix your partner, and struggle, he will zip to you.

SO when he is behaving poorly, your job is to say "I am leaving the room, I don't like the way your treating me." (THEN you detach, you wait for him to come to you.)

You don't use your neediness, trying to ring him, write to him, or contact him. When he does return it is best to say nothing about the event that happened.

YOU WILL see as you detach, and yes it feels uncomfortable for you, but it is worth it, because he will then appreciate you more and come to you.

Take care, stick around here, and read some of the past blue pencil posts, and you will learn.

ALSO look at your interactions with others, see how you react. DO YOU react needy? (you fix this in yourself by detaching)

Do you act out of fear, that no one will be there for you, if you don't help etc? (remember God sends all that we ever need, promise)

Do you act out of guilt, do you think it is your job to fix others? (It is not, your job is to fix you. To stop the struggle so you both can grow, by detaching when you are being treated poorly)

You are not here to be your partners fixer, or control him by trying to change his ways, or to convience him to do anything. You can teach him by example, by detaching when he treats you poorly.

BY not apologising when he caused the pulling away to happen. Infact at first best not to say sorry at all. (since the co-dependent does know how to in a healthy way)

Debbie speak to you soon, If you make mistakes, look at what you did and try again to detach next time. You will make many mistakes, but if you get back on track and next time it happens you aren't needy and you detach. THEN you are learning.