Comments for Catbox 38

Comments for Catbox 38

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Thursday, June 07, 2001

hi, its heather again. i thought id never post here again...i continued to read others posts but i thought after my initial "realization" that everything was ok.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. You're just starting...

i feel so weak right now. and angry at myself. i went back to him, because i wanted to remain friends and we started to talk about things in the relationship and what went 'wrong.' (after i called him abusive, he talked to therapists who said his behavior wasn't abusive...and he explained how i misinterpreted things he said, and i explained how he misread me...and so things seemed fine).

his big thing was that he could give me a second chance, if i decided he was worth it. over and over i told him i think he's worth it and i know he's worth it but there's a lot against us (my family hates him...and there's another story). he said then .. "well i just wish i was worth it to you.. and i must not be now..." meaning im supposed to just drop everything i care about and cater to him. which i did. and i wanted to. but somehow get angry at him for it. ??

i told him that i just can't be what he wants me to be, and that i'll fail again in the relationship. he wanted me to promise that i would not "try too hard" and "just let the relationship be." i said i couldn't promise that. he said my problem is i just dont want to. of course i want to! i never, ever want to fail him. somehow i end up .. he never says it directly but.... i dont know. so i tried explaining that i can't. and that i think we both have problems we need to fix by ourselves.

at any rate, we're together again, and i don't know why. i mean for a week or so, it was amazing. he was everything i possibly wanted; and even right after we broke up, i found it almost impossible to stay away from him. he is like an addiction; i almost feel lost without him. its scary.

then, last night (a big night, our graduation night, i invited him to go out with me even though he wasnt expecting it and was expecting a very happy evening)...we had our first big argument since we got back together. he is a non smoker and i smoke...when i came to pick him up i told him i needed to stop and get cigarettes. and he immediately went to get out of the car and said that if i was going to 'chain smoke' tonight that he wasn't sure he wanted to be around me at all. so i got defensive cos he started saying how it repulsed him and made him not even want to be near me.

which, is understandable. it is smoking after all, not a wonderful habit. however, he has known that i've smoked since we started dating. and he was never this adamant about it. then he slowly started to say things like "well that's why i always go into coughing and sneezing fits around you..." so i felt bad, but torn because .. well i enjoy smoking especially at certain times.

enough explaining. the core of the argument was if i wanted him to go or not. i notice that he can never just leave, it always has to be me telling him to leave in certain situations where i haven't completely ticked him off. so no, i didn't want him to go but i didn't want him to be angry at me all night for chain smoking and not wanting to touch me; and he didn't want me to be complaining and being angry at him all night that he "made me" not buy cigarettes. so i told him that it had to be his decision; did he want to put up with it or not.. and it just went around and around in circles, neither one of us being able to determine who should go or stay.

the night involved lots of him actually leaving my car to "walk home". without any explanation, i would make him angry and he'd get out and say he was "walking home". and he'd walk and i'd feel paralyzed, not knowing wether to chase him or let him be. cos he says sometimes he needs to do that to blow off steam. and other times he wants me to chase and continue the argument. so i feel trapped.

but i always went back to chase him, crying. there is no way i could let him just walk home when home is a 15 minute car ride away and in the pitch black. and he kept saying "i'm sorry you think i'm a bad person now." which i never once said, or tried to imply. hopefully i didn't. maybe i did? so i asked how, he went back to how i called him abusive. which i thought we had resolved. i told him i didn't think he was abusive, that i was just misinterpreting things he was saying.

meanwhile, i'm extremely upset, almost hysterical. i ran screaming after him when he walked away the first time, saying how i could 'never make him happy' enough. and, like he always says, he always tries to please me and im never happy enough either. ? which i don't see but oh well. he comes running back and starts to hold me and says things like...well shouldn't he be saying "im sorry i hurt you?" but its more like he gets scared that i think his a horrible person. which i can't think, because he isn't. but i did confront him once and tried asking why he didn't seem concerned about my feelings. i don't remember getting a coherent reply about that.

as you can see i am confused. i'm also ashamed. and i dont want to feel stuck. i just want him to be happy. and i want to know if i really have a problem here. or if he really has a problem. any advice or comments, the harsher the better, are appreciated. and once again, sorry for the long post. and thanks to all who take the time to read it...

blessings, heather

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Theressa,

Sorry to hear you have been ill and your partner has been trouble again. I do tend to agree with Ron and dr. irene that you should be at least willing to let him go. It costs too much too depend on him like this. It took me a long time to get to that point and I do not even know how I exactly got there. But boy it is a much better place to be in then the one I was! You may remember C. and me broke up a couple of times, the first time (about 5 years ago, I was so anxious to have him back, that nothing else mattered. He wanted things to work out too, so neither of us actually addressed the issues we had. We just took some time to cool of, thought this meant we were doing better, and moved in together again. Wrong move! Last time, it was the same, more or less. It was only last September that we started of at another foot. I can see the difference. What happend was, I did not want this relationship to work ABOVE ALL ELSE anymore. I still wanted it to work, but I knew I could be happy on my own. I was still a bit weak at that in the beginning, so it might have been better if we had not seen each other a little longer, but nevertheless, I knew, somewhere deep down, I could do wihout him, even f I did not want to. So, with help of the Catbox I got to see things more clear, albeit with lapses and fall backs (still happening of course) I think I now reached a point, where I know my well being does not depend on him, I feel, really feel I have a choice. And that makes all the difference. Sure, I still don't like confrontation, and neither does C. But I have come to realise that these confrontations are the only way to get certain issues in the open. I need to tell him what I like and do not like, I need him to tell me. As honest as we can, whatever may come of it.. And I do remember the first time I really did this: I was so scared that he would call th whole thing of. But I asked myself: do I want to live with this fear, and I knew I did not. So it was better to have it out in the open and know whatever would come of it, then live being scared of it all the time. I did grow bolder and bolder. And I find things with us get better and better because we are more open and honest about the way we feel, even if we are afraid the other might be hurt. I still get mad because of misinterpreting things he say or does, he still does abusive things (so do I b.t.w.), but calling each other on it does help. I realized one of the important things why people are abusive, is they are not told/shown their behaviour is unacceptable. We have to tell them it hurts. And if they still keep doing it, we have to let them feel the consequences. They need to know these issues are important to us. If we do not act like they are, how will they know???? Bottom-line is I guess, I found out from my own experience, detaching, pulling back and being clear about my own needs and wishes helps. I get to be myself more and more, and being myself, I find more things I like about me, then I ever thought there would be. I am stilling willing to try and work things out with C. and I feel he is too. But I do not NEED him, or any other man in my live per se. It would be nice if we could work things out, and I am willing to work on it and so is he, I feel. But if not, my live will continue. There is no (ok, less) inequality in power and I think we both benifit and feel the better for it.

Take care and try to let go of your need for him. As Ron said: you will do fine for yourself, don't ever forget that. One more thing: Theressa did you notice you stopped SHOUTING??? I guess, you know you will be heard here anyway!!! :-) :-)

Dear Jay,

hope you are doing ok. Why not savor the good moments, instead of thinking up ways to makes them end :-) Just enjoy. Give yourself some rest from worrying (well, you can woryy about me and Theressa a bit of course (giggle)). I think that worrying is a kind of control thing in a way: you worry, cause you think you know how things should be, and they might not turn out that way. I know it will not be easy to see it that way when you are beset with problems, but for me it works well. I still get anxious of course, for instance about this Portugal adventure. But I think I have learned to handle things differently. I spoke to my therapist about it, cause I was scared to fall back into denial again. But she says, you are not, cause you clearly see the things that are not ok, but you react in a different way. As for Portugal, I share (part of) my worries with C., I do my own information gathering, so as to be prepared, I take some extra risks in confronting him, cause I figure when he will still act abusive, and I still cannot handle it, I'd rather find out now then somewhere in a little hut in Portugal. It builds my confidence, and gives me the feeling I am at least in control of my part of all this. What he will, or will not do is something to wait and see and I seem to have let go of the worrying over it. I do not want to control it anymore (ok, I do, but I do not need to control it). I can let things happen at their own time and in their own way. And it feels great. You should try it sometimes......!!!! C.'s mother might be coming over and I'd love to have to two of you meet. I'll just keep you informed. How are your feet? Did you have any trubble after the last hospital session? Love and hugs, takes care and remember you have a place to stay here!!!

Dear Asha, hope you are a bit rested after all the turmoil of the last weeks. Hope you will get the used energy back quickly and are enjoying spring coming into summer. How it the business going? I am hoping to hear more of You soon again.

Love to all the rest, including of course Trubble, dr. Clock and dr. Irene. Hugs and good wishes AJ

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi cats, Jay again and lots to say. It's OK Trubble I finally got to sleep but you can still come and put the country to rights if you want cos I still don't see anyone to vote for. Maybe *I* will. I've had it with so-called RealDaddy. He fired IMe*! Humph! Maybe I should give my vote to HKK by proxy. (I mean I should vote for what he wants as he seems more able to weigh up this stuff than me. Do you think HKK is my RealDaddy?

Mind you after seeing a group of people forlornly dragging their heels with long faces and placards declaring 'vote for..." I did think maybe I would look at who smiles the most. But then the smiles might be false...It just made me kind of wonder why they did it. The only impact it seemed to have was to make me wonder if they were all depressed!  Giggle!

Things do look a bit better after some sleep. Gee whiz! The lady rediscovered the wheel! Giggle. Seriously, Trubble and I are both delighted you finally got to sleep. Trubble even got over the fact that you refused to go cavorting through London's alleyways with him. I read somewhere that if you are depressed then your mind protects itself by not letting you get REM sleep but for me it doesn't work . No sleep equals feeling really down and not making a lot of sense I think.

Well here it is definitely me being the pleasant one: but Jake has kind of cooled it since HKK spoke up, I think. He is frostily polite but did to my amazement make me a coffee just now to go with the toast. If I could only catch what he is saying first time round it would help: but he mumbles quietly into his beard and to get any sense I have to ask several times. I have no idea what that is about. Don't ask. Let it go...

AJ I am in a quandary now about the cakes and my daughter. I think though in a way the cake making is for me. I need to feel I have some way of keeping in contact and keeping the channels of communication open. I read something on adolescent schizophrenia yesterday, and I do wonder, but of course you can't say what it is without a diagnosis and she is not going to get one. I contacted her doctor recently and i think that the doctor is well aware she has made mistakes as she was a lot better and more helpful than before and told me she was also very worried. In contrast to many previous times she took notes to add to my daughter's file. My guess is that she has seen my daughter and experienced a little of what I tried to describe. She also listened to some non psychological medical stuff as well- I had to take my daughter to the hospital a while ago as she becomes ill really quickly with what always looks like meningitis but fortunately isn't, and they were sure she was one of the few who needs her tonsils out. The doctor has always refused to consider this. Anyway this time the doctor acknowledged she was worried about my daughter and said she was going to write to her.

Oh goodness knows why i put all that in the catbox! Because you're worried. Just notice that you are worried. Don't DO anything about it other than what you would do if you weren't worried.

As for the good times. If there were any with Jake I would enjoy them, AJ but he is just likely to sabotage it if I do. I am just going to be pleasant as I said and maybe in time he will deal with all his anger.

The feet saga goes on and on.. they are still swollen and nothing seems to stop that except the return of winter!  Why? Are you taking whatever you're supposed to be taking and staying away from what you're supposed to be staying away from?

I would love to meet C's mother. From what you told me she is lovely . If HKK and I can get to see you soon we will. I will reply to your email later.

Dear Becky.

I think it is harder when Christianity is involved in the equation. We have a religion that tells us miracles do happen and maybe we take longer to see things as we always have that slight hope that God will perform a miracle on our husbands and they will get better. So perhaps we stay longer? I don't know and I wish I knew what to think about this. I have been at the point of leaving so many times and yet something stops me and I never can work out if it is God saying stay or my own insecurities. If you are unsure, do nothing. Only YOU can determine what is right for you. It is also not in every woman's best interest to leave, or to leave "now," whenever that is. Nevertheless, you still have some work to do on you before you're in a place to make a determination. (Like getting a better handle on the anger and the mood swings and getting better at detaching and "doing nothing.")

I suppose in a way it is (without thunderbolts and writing in the sky) harder for us. But leaving can also be the way for God to work. I wish I was stronger myself. But I can't say I wouldn't be upset if Jake died and I still don't want a life that doesn't "include him" - heaven knows why as I do not. 

Dear Gordon,

What I don't understand is why you are working so hard to defend yourself. Yeah! FakeSis got tired of yapping with him... (But, she's not tired of him, just yapping with him...FakeSis actually likes Gordon.)  It is OK to be wrong. It does not make you a bad person. I do think you could help yourself more. Like when people ask you a direct question on Bravenet about why you were there, your reply was evasive. What you needed to say was why having done your search, you decided to stay. Instead someone else replied for you. But had you put your own reply in you could have established more trust.

I don't know if I put that clearly. Nor am I sure if you ever pushed my buttons or not. You did on the childcare issue; but I think I started to see similarities between you and my husband after Dr Irene pointed them out. Probably I wasn't conscious of any button until then. But I think what I see is the inability to see we can be wrong at times and right at others.

Giggle - I think Dr Irene and I have something like that going on at the moment. I acted in a way I think she disagrees with and defended myself in a long email (giggle ----yeah Gordon, the pot calls the kettle black!). This is human nature; I  do it too. Ask my hubby! It is however a SINGLE issue. It does not negate what we think that is good about each other. Dr Irene is ok to think I am wrong and of course I would prefer if she thought me right: but it is not the end of the world as long as I look at what she says and think about it. After all, Dr Irene may be  right and if she is wrong it will not be the end of the world for either of us. (Oops putting words into Dr Irene's mouth here, Good words. Thanks.) I don't become a bad person for being defensive once in a while. That's right AuntieJay. Only *I* am never defensive!

Oh dear I don't know if I am saying this well at all. Thing is what my husband does is defend his own corner, so he remains perfect. I don't know why he feels he will lose so much by admitting he is wrong once in a while; but he will never, ever back down, He does not ever say sorry - or interestingly hear it, but will respond with something like "I made a mistake.' But somehow you are left feeling he doesn't regret it at all.

I think it is about insecurity. And anxiety and fear. He (and probably Gordon) are too threatened to let go and let be. Fear can make us rigidly hold onto whatever tenaciously, as though for dear life. It feels as though the rug is being pulled out from under you; your reality is somehow at stake and your sanity is at stake. But it's not. (So much easier, I think, to simply accept how coo coo we are!) Very intelligent people have this insecurity as they so rarely do get it wrong. You, like my husband are very obviously highly intelligent. One of the hardest jobs I have as a parent to HKK is to teach him to be ok with failure. Touch it and it turns to gold. How many people do have a kid who is able to produce art equivalent to an art student at 13, play in a band that is rapidly getting known locally (Hey! Cool! We could use another "English Invasion."), achieve A grades in every subject if he wants to, get a medal for ice skating and be chosen a year young for the county basketball team - oh yeah for good measure he is popular and read at the age of two and spoke in sentences really early!

My guess is you will also have had a very positive amount of feedback and you had good parenting to boot. So and I may be wrong here as I don't know you, failure may actually have become threatening. So that means that if someone questions you, then you are not ok with looking if they have a point. After all your life experience would give you assurance you are right.

Not at all a bad thing- loads of high self esteem, there. No. An individual with high self esteem and sense of Self does not waste so much energy defending. But it does then become harder to see how things are more complicated for others. I think. I don't know if you ever read Joanna Freeman's 'Living with a Gifted Child?" but I found that really helpful in explaining Jake - I have also read something on gifted adults and I am racking my brains for what.

Giggle, Gordon maybe I will beat you at long posts today! The thing is what I am trying to say is that you do say good things amazingly good. and sometimes like us all you blow it. I have posted rubbish in the catbox and probably on the boards as well! (Ahem, after a bottle of wine I am sure I did Giggle. Wine spiked with catnip, no doubt.). It is really ok to blow it as long as you can acknowledge it and move on.

I think with the boards sometimes it is remembering people are not as healed as we might suppose. I sometimes write stuff, then scratch as I think 'If I say that they may take it wrongly." Theressa often posts useful things on both boards and people rarely reply. I have often wondered about that. Why is nobody saying they have been helped. I think it is because of the very reason she posted. Many people there have got stuck in anger and it will take a time to work through and move on. People stuck in anger or stuck anywhere and unwilling to move are "safe" on Bravenet. You can't get away with that for long with me around though. All that good stuff will probably be used retrospectively. There is a time to be ready for the teacher. Exactly. People take exactly what they need when they need it.

This used to happen when I taught child care a lot. Students would insist what they thought was 'right' and good practice wasn't ok. I learnt to say 'hold onto that and see what you think in a few months time." They would often get the point in the light of experience.

Giggle. I have just discovered HKK has a day off school. He and Jake just never mentioned it and I'm sure a wildfire didn't get any letter with it in! The school seems to have closed for the election. VOTE FOR TRUBBLE!

Anyway the thing is Gordon I am not attacking you. Rather the opposite. I don't always like some of the content of what you say but it doesn't negate the good. I still do think you are angry; but having said it it puts the ball in your court to accept it or not and if you don't then that is up to you. It isn't my business to make you see you are. After all i am not God so I could be wrong! Unlikely Jay...

I have probably put my foot in it!

Dear Perdida.

I really have problems over this 'admitting depression stuff. The thing is the only people you really need to say it to is a doctor and yourself. It is not admitting it at all that does the damage. I think it is great if you can be yourself. I have a feeling if we did meet we would get along. We could be ourselves together! Perhaps the world isn't ready for people like us!

Guess like AJ we have to get to living a life that is happy with or without a partner:

Ah well, I had better stop writing, Lisa I think you are doing great., I do look at your posts but haven't a lot to say.

Talking of Lynn's broomstick it would be great to hear from Lynn and Dan? Yeah! Asha you sound very centred Yes... these days and B where are you????? ????

love, jay (It's ok Gordon you can write me a long reply if you want!)






Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi Asha,

I am taking child development (psychological) this year.

Basically children learn from those around them. (that's why good role modeling is necessary)

When your needs are met by your caregiver, (your emotional ones are very important), then you feel secure enough to know that any rejection is not about yourself.

What happens in childhood when these needs aren't meant, well the individual learns to comfort themselves by firstly controlling any possible disappointment and secondly if this fails they go to objects for comfort.

Overtime these individuals also learn to dull and deny the pain, if the pain comes up they quickly avoid it by throwing themselves into their work, or by do whatever they need to, to regain control of their space.

This may mean they push everyone away and with this a sense of "I only need me, no one else can be trusted" comes with this sense.

When you have this much pain you can't think of anyone else, since everyone else is seen as causing your pain. The pain is overwhelming so the individual goes into flight and fight mode. They firstly leave the scene, then they try to control any predators, (others in their lives) they do this by pushing you away, then you can't cause them anymore pain.

(Truth is its their thinking that causes them pain, not you, or the circumstances)

When you feel in pain as a child you learn to control others so they can't hurt you.

You can't see anyone else's point of view because you don't trust anyone else. You just know if you control others then they won't betray you. (though they do, their human), then because of others humanness when they let you down the trust is dinted further.

To have empathy you have to feel secure enough to trust others. To let others have their viewpoint without feeling it will minimize your viewpoint, you feel you can learn from everyone.

When you don't trust others, your only hope is sticking by rigid rules.

When you are an abuser and feel pain, it is your primary objective to fight that pain off. You can't see how you create the pain, nor can you see how others are feeling pain from your behaviour either.

SO TRUST must come first. You get this by taking risks. As I am being coached to do by Ron, you have to risk a little more even when it is uncomfortable.

For example, last night I went up and sat and cuddled my partner, he looked a little uncomfortable but I kept on. In fact he looked like he did enjoy it, though I also have to remember he might then pull away. Over time Ron said "He will feel less and less uncomfortable, but it must be done slowly."

I hope this helps Theressa  Excellent!




Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dr Irene,

So the AIM if I am to get healthy is to HONEST about what is happening, Connect with my feelings so I know what tapes etc are running within me. Finally to be secure enough to look at my own values and learn from everybody at the same time not being defensive.

Is that correct? Yep.

So my goal is to allow humanness and to improve. To take risks and handle how I feel if I am rejected.

Well that is about what Ron said. Giggle!

On well I have a lots of work to do in learning and practicing all these new skills. I've finally also ordered Codependent No More. Yippeeee!

Thanks a million, and YES Dr Irene Ron is a good role model, however, I only have two more sessions and then he leaves. Ouchhh! Where's he going? (NOT sure what happens then), I grown to trust Ron; it will be hard when he goes. He has taught me so much about myself. Now, the really cool part is that you will always take him with you everywhere. Ron helped you learn to trust. That means you can trust other good role models too. And you will...

I suppose Ron came in my life for a reason and now he has to move on.

Oh well I guess it is all meant to happen so I will accept it. I know though wherever Ron goes next he will be a tremendous help. I've no doubt...

Take care Theressa

AND TRUBBLE how could I overcome my fear of cats?? I move in with you.

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi Jay,

Why do you let Jake determining how you will act? Why do you let him control the fun? Indeed...

There is an article on this site that says it all. There was a guy who used to buy a newspaper ever morning from the newsstand. Every morning this guy was chirpy and happy person. The guy on the newsstand never acknowledged the customer or smiled.

One day the guy went once more to buy a newspaper, smiling and chirpy saying hello etc. A friend turned to the guy buying the newspaper and said "every morning you smile and are chirpy, but the guy at the newsstand looks grumpy and never responds, so why do you continue.

The guy buying the newspaper responded, "WHY should he decide how I should act! "

JAY this is the same for you and me. It is all about taking the risk and if the whole thing get sabotaged are doesn't work out SO WHAT. You take what enjoyment you can and then you get re-centered.

Jay start planning things for you and Jake (TAKE THE RISK), for instance make him breakfast in bed. (even if he then rejects it), just feel happy in that you tried.

Maybe you need to learn as me to deal with this rejection. The key is do it anyway and get enjoyment out of doing it. What is the worse that could happen. Jake could refuse the nice gesture. THOUGH chances are he might enjoy it. Even if he pretends not to...

Sometimes we just have to act as if. (as if things are fine), and start to behave how we would if they were fine.


Take care Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi AJ,

Thanks this really helps. FACE my fears eh! You and Asha are right I have to face them however, uncomfortable.

Take care Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

My boyfriend and I have a terrible time of it. We're either really happy together, screaming at each other or not speaking for weeks on end. I've posted here before under various names, quoting a couple of incidents. My 'problem' is that I really love him, I still hope that we can come through all of this. I am still committed to making our relationship work, however I have this one BIG problem... All the rows and harsh words have left me feeling very insecure. The last time we bust up I can honestly say that I loathed myself, when I looked the mirror all I could see was an ugly old self-obsessed woman. I started working on my confidence. We've been back together for just a couple of weeks but already the 'rows' are ruining it. A few months ago I gave my boyfriend loads of verbal abuse on two separate occasions. I honestly felt that I wanted to hurt him in the way he did me, I have felt outraged by the way that he speaks to me. But I really went too far and I feel the damage is irrevocable. He doesn't hear what I say and has projected a personality onto me which I don't identify with though at times we really 'meet'. I just don't understand this. I just feel so insecure in the relationship and he says today that he is unsure about it (he has said this so many times) I fear that he wants to leave me and he does - he has dumped me again today. I am obsessed that he will go off with another woman so I am tormented by a jealously that doesn't exist. Please help me, I am so in love with him. I feel so helpless. He says that I have abused him, and when he talks I can hear how I have. But it takes two to tango, and he's always rejecting me, dumping me, calling me things like a whore in rows etc. etc. I really feel a lot of my lashing out is 'victim anger' but I am confused, and anyway there is no right or wrong, love can be messy. Any advice? C

Thursday, June 07, 2001


I hardly ever post either. But your post really touched me. I don't want to state the problem is his or yours because no matter who is the "victim" or who is the "abuser", each has a problem. My biggest concern is what you said near the end of your post "I just want him to be happy." Of course you do, but Heather, please start thinking "I want to be happy." Then start thinking about what would help you to be happy - things that DON'T INVOLVE HIM OR THE RELATIONSHIP. Start doing those things, even if you stay in the relationship. Take care of yourself, hon, and the relationship will take care of itself. I promise...

My divorce was final two days ago and I thought I would be the most miserable woman on the face of the planet. In reality, the relief is almost overwhelming, and though I briefly miss him sometimes, my mind is finally clear so I see that the relationship wasn't contributing to my happiness, but was sabotaging it. Now I can be truly happy. I'm not saying doing things to make yourself happy will cause the relationship to end. That's just the way it worked for me. The important thing is that doing things to make yourself happy outside the relationship will help you put it in proper perspective and down the road you'll know clearly what to do.

Good luck, Heather. I'm thinking of you...

Marji Thank you Marji. Good luck to you too.

Thursday, June 07, 2001

AAAARRRGGGH!!!! I needed that. I am so overly frustrated at present that I could just scream again. AAAARRRGGGH!!! When will he grow up and take responsibility. He drives over the road (which has given enough peace to stay with him while I am trying to get through school) and has recently started whining that he just wants to spend time doing nothing like I do. NOTHING LIKE I DO?! We have three kids. I have a garden. I am a budding writer who helps manage three online communities. I tend the yard (well my eldest mows these days but I do all else because my spouse doesn't want to be "bothered" with such things when he is home. He is seriously talking about quitting his job... again. In twelve years of marriage he has had over 40 jobs that I know of and all of them ended because of the company 'screwing him over'. I have been patient, supportive, a good wife. When do I get my turn? I am in counseling, on antidepressants, doing most all of everything concerning the family, and am still making the dean's list. And what does the man say... "when are you gonna be through with your stupid school. I wish I could do nothing like you do." *furrows her brows* Ah, grow up!!! He quits this one he will come home to find the locks changed or me living with my mother one.

- Taken all she can in Tennessee

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear All,

I just noticed something I need to work out:

I realised that when I feel unconfident with someone I behave rather oddly. There is a lady I work with but I feel intimidated by her. She chats to me is and is nice to me. Though I find myself saying the oddest things when I am in her company.

I start trying to gain her approval. I will gabble on about others in my life. Like my family and try to show how I am actually okay, using my family to prove that since they aren't so good, I must be. THIS IS YUKKY!

Sometimes what I am saying start to sound like gabble.

Why do I do it?

Further at times I find myself with my Grandmother, with others talking about other family members, or problems with them. I NEVER seem to speak about myself. SO the conversations end up like I am gossiping about others.

Is this part of my co-dependency fear of focusing on me??

I also do a similar thing with my partner, I do it out of fear of his reaction though I know that much, What I do is for example I knocked my car mud guard off one weekend when I was reversing. Anyway a young guy said "Hey missus you knock the mud guard off".

Now when I got home I found myself fabricating the whole affair, trying to impress my partner. THE STUPID thing is he is never impressed and he always ends up calling me arrogant for doing this.

I would tell my partner how I asked the boy if he took off my mud guard.

WELL the response I got from my partner was, "You should watch yourself treating people like that, if I was the lad I'd have told you to shut your mouth."

The truth is I never said anything of the sort to the lad, The lad just told me and I thanked him.

WHY DO I DO THIS? (Is it to gain approval) How do I stop it? Pay attention. Do nothing. Just notice.

Thanks Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

This is a must read for all of us, some one on the I am responsible list called Pamela passed it on to me.

Thanks Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Theressa,

Sadly Jake is unable to receive when anyone gives. He locks himself away all night so I couldn't make him breakfast if I wanted and will not do anything I plan or join in anything at the moment. He may be like the guy on the newspaper stand but I can't change that. I just work on having a life outside Jake and being nice to him. Nothing else I can sanely do. Just now all I could do is cook food he likes . Giggle. he isn't fat; he is rake thin despite all the bananas. And cheese. Did you give him the labels?

Believe me if I could operate like you suggest I would. But also as he is depressed he may not do anything with anyone for a long while yet. The only thing he will join in is if my best friend comes round as he likes her.

The only way to interact with Jake at the moment is to watch yet another episode of Babylon 5 which seems like the one thing we do do together with HKK!

So on the principle of doing more of what works my choice is rather restricted just now. Oh well, I rather like Ambassader Kosh! And it gets pretty spacey round here.

Sorry if this seems like tongue in  cheek. It is just that all my married life people have suggested what sane, normal people would respond to, and with Jake it seems like he is determined never to let it work.......jay

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi All,

I've just read some of the most amazing stuff on that URL I posted before.

"I attract difficult people and circumstances to me that correspond to my feelings, to bring up the suppressed feelings for clearing."

Do you agree with this Dr Irene?  Absolutely. You attract your needed lessons.

Thanks Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi Jay,

My partner was like that a lot before we separated. I think when we were apart he must have thought quite a bit.

Maybe the lesson is that you can learn to live without him. (WATCH out JAKE, Jay might realise she doesn't need you!!)

Jake may learn a lot though from your role modeling and HKK will definitely.

Take care Theressa

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Theressa, I think that is is insecurity that makes us do things like the mudgueard incident. I had a time when with just one bunch of people I worked with I kept saying the wrong word. It happened loads of times and I ended up hoping they just thought I was tired. In fact it was as I got more stressed it happened. I was so nervous that I ended up wanting to make too much of and impression and the telling thing is it happened nowhere else.

I think more than anything the key is to become centred enough not to be rocked by others' attitudes of superiority. Bingo! I think I can do that now: but I couldn't do it then. And yes, occasionally I would twist the truth in the 'Mudgueard way."

So I think maybe it is your partner who is acting superior somehow and it unbalances you maybe? I have noticed it goes away when not with people who 'feel' superior. Thing is it is usually insecurity in them that makes them act that way.

So it is kind of true i think that almost everyone is insecure in some way and manifests it somehow.

When I am working I will sometimes resort to a jacket. and earrings and wear make up I never normally wear. I can guarantee you this only happens when I think I will be among people with a superior attitude. It is silly but like a sort of thing I can hide behind. I think i speak more sense with my horrid jacket on. Silly me I probably spout as much sense or nonsense as usual.

I just think we all have these silly habits that happen.

I also think that it is harder for a codependent to talk about themselves. I get called on that pretty often. I can start to talk about my own problems and then somewhere along the line I express worry about someone else and so it goes on. Giggle! I have no idea why apart from being codependent I do that. You are a loving, caring person. You just use that talent to get away from your own stuff a bit too much.  It is so hard to look after me and maybe so easy to look after other people.......... It's so easy at the moment to think about Jake and HKK. Not so easy to admit what Jay needs - like I really think I am having a horrible time with my family and I am fed up with not being cared for and I want some proper attention and some adult conversation and someone to agree with me that they are real mean for treating me this way. Like I feel alone and lonely in it all and resent the fact there is no counselor available for me. Why isn't there Jay?

Like I sometimes feel angry that my dad is disabled and that means my parents have never given me the support they could. Like nobody comes round because Jake makes them feel uneasy, and I want the house filled with people and I resent this too. Like I want someone to give my daughter a piece of their mind about the way she is and tell her how badly she has behaved That would be refreshing., and I get angry that it almost seems to be condoned, and I don't think it helps her one bit and I want someone to know how much this hurts me that she is like she is and that I feel a failure as a mother.......... Before you go there, consider how much of this is out of your hands. Consider how much of this is a function of laws that seem to me to be less than OK ways to handle a kid...

Like I am tired still and worried and fed up but nobody knows because Jay is known to be strong and cheerful and ok. So stop appearing so "strong." Be what you are. (well actually my two best friends do know how i feel. like I am worried about selling my part of the house as it is taking so long and i feel hurt by the way my father in law is brushing me off.... I know he cares but I don't know what Jake has told him........ Blood is thicker than marriage. Let it go and let him think whatever.

Like every day is a battle I usually won not to get depressed but it seems UNFAIR to have to fight........ Life is not fair; it is what you make it. Like deep down I can't say life is OK it is not and it hasn't been for a long time. But I know I will survive and I can make stuff feel better ...but it is still UNFAIR all the stuff that happened to me..... You and a few zillion other kids Jay. Like there is a part of me that doesn't dare not be OK. Another part that is still angry. Another part that is going to be sad until the stuff with my daughter is resolved and cries inside and hurts about that ALL THE TIME. But another part still that hopes and has faith and it isn't like I don't smile or laugh or go out. It isn't that the laughter is put on or forced. Today the thought hit me 'what if HKK leaves home at 16 too? I know it may not happen, but the fear is so real. I hope i don't overcompensate for him. But what will I do if it does happen? Let go and continue to experience joy that this wonderful kid is your son!

I know all this stuff has to work out and it was just me trying to concentrate on me and very hard to write...... I am surprise I just did! Do more of this Jay. Now that you can face your worries, your fears, etc., etc., tolerate the fact that this is what is. And go on with your life. So I will leave it where it belongs in the catbox and er rescue the yeast I am proving for bread which has probably swarmed the kitchen now!

Theressa don't tell Trubble this but I am a bit afraid of cats too. I don't like their claws digging into me which is what they always seem to do. I think the only way you can overcome it is to expose yourself in small doses to a cat. I did this with one name "Lupenstein." I got quite fond of it in the end. But i would not touch a bird, rabbit or hamster, a mouse, snake or rat. I am really phobic about them and actually recoil involuntarily if I see a dead bird or a live toad! Crumbs, I didn't realise the list was so long but as my day doesn't usually include these animals i will survive! Actually I couldn't clean out the goldfish bowl either! And Doc couldn't stand  bugs - till she took up gardening...

Oh help I just realised I am whatever the name is for someone phobic about all those animals.. "Simple phobia." Giggle . I will live and i promise to touch the next frog I see but I won't kiss it as I have enough on my hands with Jake...jay Giggle! We have a koi pond and I am the "koi keeper." Last Fall I had to catch a big frog so he wouldn't try to overwinter in the FakePond and kill himself. You know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but, actually, they are cute as buttons! A favorite saying: "Face the fear and the fear will disappear." Another famous easier said than dones...

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Hi Jay

I was just thinking of the time that Theressa’s therapist suggested some things that she went along with, then later she was angry with him about it. I also remember Dr. Irene saying that her therapist was not responsible for her life, she was. Theressa worked this out for herself because she realized that she *was* in charge of her own life, not her therapist, not anyone else.

I think we have to remember that about anyone who offers help or advice. If we make anyone, Dr. Irene or anyone else, too powerful in our minds then we give up some of our own power. Yes. And, trust me, I don't want that kind of power!

I think it’s more difficult to be misunderstood or disliked by someone we respect though. Sometimes ‘agree to disagree’ is the only way; sometimes it’s worth trying to get a point across. I relate to Gordon’s long posts, where I think he has admitted to being wrong, but wants to be understood. I too seek to be understood, when I don’t feel I am. I don’t *need* to be understood, but when it comes to friends and people I respect, I do attempt to be understood.

I think Dr. Irene has said that her job is to ask the questions; ours to decide what the right answers are for us. Sometimes those answers change over time, and sometimes what we think are the right answers, aren’t. Sometimes the right answer for someone else is not the right answer for us, and sometimes there *are* no right answers… :)

Something I have experienced personally is that feeling that someone wants me to admit I am wrong, when I don’t think I *am* wrong. When I feel unbalanced and not centered, it throws me off because I wonder if there is something I’m just not seeing. The truth is some people just *don’t* see. But just because someone else thinks I’m wrong doesn’t mean I am. Correct. But, also thank the person who you let throw you off balance because after you go inside and clarify and clarify, nobody will have the power to throw you anywhere... That's part of why I try to "stretch" you guys and get you thinking...  If I was running a negative internal program that said “I can’t admit it when I was wrong”, then I would have to look more closely at my reaction. If I’m not running that sort of program, I might carefully consider what was said about me and either agree, discard it, or decide that if it’s true, I really don’t see it as being that way. You're talking about "knowing." Problem is, people who know, know they know, while those who don't know think they know even more.

When your husband says "I made a mistake', that may be his only way of saying sorry. I understand how you feel Jay, because sometimes “I made a mistake” doesn’t seem like “enough” if the “mistake” was a really painful one. But, some people seem not to have the tools or the empathy skills to say “I really screwed up and I am so terribly, terribly sorry!” – as you said that stuff takes a lot of security, and self esteem!

I think that it’s a great exercise for people who need to be “right” to practice apologizing and showing empathy and concern for the other’s feelings. But since we have no control over anyone else, it’s best to accept that they won’t always make that choice.

BTW, I loved your post and think it is so neat that we can talk about some of this stuff to each other in a non-threatening way. Yes Asha. Thank you.


Dear Theressa

You said: “What happens in childhood when these needs aren't meant, well the individual learns to comfort themselves by firstly controlling any possible disappointment and secondly if this fails they go to objects for comfort.”

Can you give an example of how they would control a possible disappointment?

Also, I wonder if going to objects for comfort explains why people later in life are addicted to food, to alcohol, drugs, buying things? I wonder why we go to “things” – is it because *people* have proven unreliable?

“When you feel in pain as a child you learn to control others so they can't hurt you. “

As in, you hurt them first? Or does this become a competitive thing where you take all the goodies first so you won’t get left out, or push the other kid first so that they won’t push you?

“You can't see anyone else's point of view because you don't trust anyone else. You just know if you control others then they won't betray you. “

So if you don’t trust what’s being said you don’t necessarily believe that the other person’s feelings are real.

I guess as a child, because you are completely at the mercy of your caregivers and your only control is by “acting out”. If comfort is not found by people, it will be found through “things” To me that says that our emotional needs are basic needs. I have also seen the opposite, when a parent suffocates the child with over-nurturing and doesn’t give them the opportunity to be responsible for themselves. What a tough job to be a parent to find that proper balance!

Theressa I also think your issue with the lady at work has to do with your “people pleasing”. I think if don’t “need” her to like you so much, you’ll be more natural. You might be trying to fill in empty space, when you might otherwise choose to say nothing. I remember a teacher who I always felt nervous around because I was so much wanted his approval. I would also end up saying silly things. Don’t try to predict what she wants to hear – in fact if nothing comes to mind, say nothing!

Louise Hay has a wonderful tape that talks about “gossip”. She says in it that when she decided to stop gossiping, she had nothing to say to anyone for 3 weeks!!

Gossip is sort of an empty, “fill-in-the-whole” kind of thing that some (or should I say most) people get titillated by. But it achieves nothing good.

Also, why not be more honest about what you are feeling? If you are nervous telling your partner about the mud guard, say so. “I feel uncomfortable telling you what happened but...” And if he reprimands you, so what! We all make mistakes Theressa. You don’t have to be perfect.

take care.



AJ – you asked how I was doing. I am doing pretty well. I hope Steve’s financial situation gets sorted out soon so we can get on with the business. He’s doing everything he can. Hi to Steve!

I work alone a lot and I have been feeling a bit isolated. I do see friends quite often, and I try to get out, but my job is one (at least right now) with little social interaction, and I’m a social person, so at times it gets a bit lonely. It’s up to me to bring more balance into my life though, and I’m working on it.

I had a visit with my family a little while ago and I felt really good. I’ve watched my parents “grow up” over the last few decades. If you are open to learning it can happen at any time, at any age. I truly appreciate their sense of co-operation, and humor and I’m very lucky to have them in my life.

Wow, what a long post. I never intend to write so much but I get so captivated by all the interesting stuff here. That's cuz you're interesting!

take care all


Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Heather, Remember he BIT you on the face. Therapists can only work with what they see and maybe he didn't mention that.

I actually think that if everyone who hit anyone in a relationship or threw a plate at them was left immediately the world would be a better place, but there wouldn't be that many relationships left!

However there is to me a lot of difference between a plate sailing across a room or a momentary lashing out in anger and an all out physical attack that gets repeated.

It suggests there may me a mental illness present to me or a really uncontrollable anger problem. If it had been once or under great stress it is still REALLY BAD but I would maybe forgive but not way...  You cannot permit ANY intentional or unintentional physical stuff without a big fuss. "Little" so called "accidental" stuff is how it all starts...

I am sure some people would say I was wrong here. But I guess I know now there can be times when you are so shot away by life, your normal control goes out the window. Not right but I just see that better now... Correct.

Please reread your post again and ask yourself again what you would say to a friend in the same position. Honey, we love you and want you here while you need help: but I think it would be sad if you started a catbox life now by staying with the guy. Love Jay

BUT you are really young and the best thing you can do for yourself is not to get involved in a relationship that brings you grief. Please don't because two or three years down the line you will be here in the catbox still. Choose now not to have a toxic relationship in your life.

I am not even sure what a graduation is but this guy and you couldn't get on enough to make a really big day for you special. I can just see your wedding day - you will have a wrestling match in the aisle with the guy at the rate you are going.

This is not good, this relationship for either of you and there are going to be more balanced guys out there to meet. Love your Self and get out. Yes Heather. GET OUT! And get some counseling while you're still young when change is easiest.

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Giggle, How many cats are all reading and posting at the same time. Seems like I click back and someone answered my post already! Hi Asha and Theressa and whoever else! jay

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Asha, I respect Dr Irene but I don't think she is God. Giggle not unless I am mistaken and God really is a woman after all and even then I don't think except to Trubble she would want to be! Giggle!

Actually I think it is more a case of weighing what someone says in the light of your own experience,

I do want Jake to say sorry though. One thing he did was so bad, it needs a sorry for me ever to heal. Maybe it is more about the way he says things. it is kind of self justifying. Maybe i just can't describe it in the catbox but the message is sort of "I really don't care." A button...

I can't change Jake but I don't have to pretend what he does is ok when it isn't cos that takes me back into the denial that made me ill...  There is a difference between pretending / denial and disengaging.

In a way, (Sorry Gordon) what Gordon does in any post is only relevant to the one who receives or perceives it and that goes the same for everyone else as well. Yep.

I think it is fine to disagree. In a way that seems like the purpose of the catbox: to learn to agree or disagree in a way that leaves both people whole. Certainly one of the goals. If we could have done that to our partners and  vice versa we wouldn't be here, I think.

Ah well will have to end here as Jake is home and I have spent so long typing, there is no tea and the bread has now probably risen over the bowl!

If you lived nearer I could give you all some of my home made bread except for Trubble who would have to have catfood Trout. Fresh Trout. love, jay

Thursday, June 07, 2001

Okay, this is Debbie here. Since I wrote the last time I have read more posts to this Catbox. I am glad to hear that this is a good place for ranting and that it is safe for those of us who are in these situations. I can now explain my situation further, (if that's okay with the rest of you). This is also my second marriage and I have two grown daughters from my previous marriage. I worked hard on  releasing my emotional baggage from my previous marriage and did not even start to date until 4 years after my first divorce. I am not willing to get a second divorce either and have converted to Catholicism. My two daughters are there to help me when I need it although my oldest doesn't understand what is really going on and I get the feeling that she really doesn't want to know what a verbal abusive person is or how they act or react to situations. Anyway, I want this marriage to work, but I am on my last bit of patience with my new hubby. I don't know if to go to his sister or his parent's in an attempt to find out how or what might have caused him to be so fearful of my touch. I am not even sure that they know. I hope that book comes real soon so I will get some answers on how to deal with this. I have put my name on the lease for this apartment at the opinion of the policeman the lives across from us. My husband is now very placid and happy and he his trying in his own way to make me happy. Now that I read something on the way an abuser traps you, I can see through all this. Yep, I am a little slow, but I get the picture. It's sort of like waiting for the other foot to fall. I told myself that I would not go and hug him or touch the front part of his body when I wake in the morning before we get out of bed. I don't want another fight. He scares me when he backs me up against the wall or kitchen counter and gets all red in the face . He stands in "my space" (can anyone relate to this?) and that makes me real uncomfortable. It seems I am forever waiting for the next fight to happen or I touch him and forget not to ask why it scares him so (he tells me that he is not afraid of anything, but his actions scream otherwise). As far as my work is concerned, I work from our apartment. I am a seamstress and cannot leave it for now. I am in the growing stages and to leave would mean to lose my business. I really want to be on my own financial terms and then if it does happen that I have to leave fo a little while then I can get on by myself. I can't wait until that book comes! Does anyone have any opinions as to why he would pull back from me and get so upset because I choose to touch him? I do know that he had a letter from his former fiancée (who decided to leave him just before they were to be wed) in his drawer and I asked for him to get r id of it. That was a fiasco!! I wasn't being jealouse, it was more on the lines of him holding onto his past like that. He got very upset and then asked me to ask questions of that relationship. I did nad all I got was it was an amicable split. I don't think it was. That wouldn't make sense and I think that the relationship there is what is causing him the fear in mine. I don't know her and I don't know if he ever talked with his parent's or siblings about this either. Well I have talked people's ears off here and will go now. My husband will be home soon anyway. Thanks for being here. I have looked for a site like this for quite a while.


Thursday, June 07, 2001

Dear Cats,

My ex wrote me to tell me when he would be out of town again, which isn't when I told HIM I would come. It seems he STILL is not listening. I am getting a sense that he wants me to engage and say "Where are you going?? With whom??" But NOOOOOOO!!! I just thanked him for sharing and told him he didn't have to be home AT ALL when I came to get my stuff! I hope he isn't working up into a rage. I bet he hasn't found anyone to dump his rage on yet and so he is looking forward to seeing me.

I made up with the Brazilian. I went to talk it over with him, and he was really ready to drop it and go back to normal, so I went with the flow, to my credit. So I didn't have to get out the heavy artillery, just some mild "what do you take me for" kind of stuff. I can sense that he loves me but I am sure it's meant to be platonic. But I am happy that things are back the way they were with some extra precautions and a comfortable distance. I can come and go to the house and stay whenever I want, etc etc. But I have changed so that's what is important.

I'm sorry but I can't follow the Gordon and Sis thread. Gordon, you sound just like my ex. You're mirroring Sis, which tends to become meaningless, and you have over-intellectualized some basic stuff, like who cares if she doesn't like you. I guess I don't know the whole story, but what I have seen is actually kind of hard to read. Crazymaking. Gordon, we are all glad you are here. Can you try something different with your communication style? I feel like what I read got really bogged down in defense and tennis, and it doesn't make for clear communication. Dr. Irene has been on you about larding your posts with social issues. Can you talk about your real issues? Maybe you did, and I got bogged down before I got to them.

Sincerely to all (I really mean "love to all" but, well, you know...) Giggle!


Friday, June 08, 2001

hi all. I have a question: what is all this disengaging everyone talks about? i hear the term thrown around, but what does it actually mean? and how would you do it in a relationship?

ok so i have a few more questions. :) specifically for jay...i don't really know much of your story, Read the catbox's earlier pages. but you talk about your daughter, and i was wondering what it is that she does that makes you angry/sad/mad...? im just curious. as to the situation, but you don't have to answer if you don't want. by the way, thank you for your comments. though i think everyone got the impression that he is physically abusive, which he isn't and hasn't been. he just enjoys walking away from me when things get too heated for him. gr. im not sure, but did you get the wrong impression as well, dr. irene?  You haven't done your homework. Do your catch-up reading and then come back...

not that it matters. im just glad he's not because that would only escalate matters. in other words i hope im not trying to defend the situation....and i thank you for your concern and support. :) im worried about myself though. why do i even want to be in this relationship? i know i only talk about our arguments (we do have good times as well). is there something wrong with me in that i feel like i need to be with him? ahhhh!!!!

dr. irene, im in therapy right now...for issues concerning my dad who was both physically and verbally abusive up until i was thirteen (when he got medication for ADHD and bipolar disorder, which no one knew he had until then) other words he just wasn't there. and only in the past few years has tried to be (and i resented.. im getting better though). and im not saying 'oh poor me' and i hate even saying i was a 'victim' of anything....and here i go explaining myself away which i do all the time. i read someone's post in here who talked about having the 'need' to explain and have people understand you. why is that anyway?

so yes im in therapy but have only met with my therapist twice so i haven't had any real chance to establish anything yet....there is so much i need to talk about. so im looking forward to that,


Friday, June 08, 2001

Dear Dr Irene, Why is there no counselor for me? Well, there was a psychologist but she signed me off saying I was resourceful and she couldn't help. My doctor said she had a single hours counseling a week and she had given it to someone dying of cancer. Repeated appeals to the marriage guidance centre have brought forth no appointment whatsoever in a year. They even reinterviewed me as it was so long and STILL nothing. I can't afford to pay £25.00 a week for a private counselor right now and anyway I live in a small town with loads of counselors but I tend to meet them in training and so it gets difficult.. (They tend to use the resource centre training days) - I guess I am pretty paranoid about confidentiality. Nor was my experience of therapists when I did use them that brilliant. One overcharged by £30.00 and I was never convinced I got the full time. The second was brilliant but disappeared after Christmas! Jake has the money to pay but he won't. 

I haven't got anything to do/take for the legs apart from wait for another appointment with a specialist. Apart form water pills which are ineffective. You staying away from the bad stuff? Chocolate...

We didn't get a change of government which is no worse I think than not having one. Trubble you are sorely needed here if Fakedaddy doesn't want you. Rotton FakeDaddy... I think you and HKK could do a really good job of running the country. I am glad the others didn't get in but I don't like what we have either! Yikes the nationalist party (racist party) got a fair amount of votes and that is scary.

Meanwhile, where do you draw the line between saying someone is suffering from some kind of mental health problem and just putting up with eccentric behaviour. Yesterday Jake wanted to fix his bike in the back garden. He went out of the back door and locked it from the outside! I was in the kitchen. He then proceeded to fix his bike carefully avoiding coming in through the front door several times. So he must in some weird way in his mind be locking me out physically as well as metaphorically. but just where does it cross in to insane? He then disappeared at dinner and for the rest of the night but not telling me he was going out. It wasn't until HKK told me I knew. I don't want to know where he goes but it is unnerving when I don't know if he is in or out especially as he refuses to speak once he has locked his study door so there is no way of knowing.

I feel kind of frustrated more than rejected. Nobody else sees this stuff but me and I don't feel believed: except here in the Catbox. Stop it... He's surviving; or trying to. Let him do what he will do and do what you must to take care of You.

As for mood swings - I can't do a lot until the hormone stuff gets sorted and that is going to take time.

I am feeling low this morning . it will go away as I start doing stuff.   jay


Friday, June 08, 2001

Giggle, Perdida you CAN say it . AJ you CAN say it ..Anyone can! I don't know why one guy saying it on a message board carries so much power. It is ok to say "love to all." The circumstances there and here are completely different. jay (LTA).

Friday, June 08, 2001

Hi Asha,

Asha said: "Can you give an example of how they would control a possible disappointment?"

Yes, they control disappointment by not allowing mistakes, by being perfectionists. If someone makes a mistake it hurts the abuser too badly. They've been let down so much in life that they avoid this at all costs.

The One way they do this is by criticizing their victim so he/she people pleases and toes the line. This is done by controlling outcomes. I used to (still do somewhat) try to tip toe around. (WALK ON EGG SHELLS), so not to upset my partner.

The trouble was the more I tried to walk on egg shells the more intense it got. Now as you know, I use more covert ways of people pleasing that I am working on eradicating.

My partner has rules if they are broken he becomes angry. Rules such as you should keep certain things in certain places so you NEVER lose them. AND so should everyone else. If they don't then they cause the abuser stress.

To prevent this anger the victim tries hard to toe the line. I used to tip toe around and be quiet. (It could have been mistaken for care) but it was so unrealistic. Such things as hearing a breakfast bowl knock on the side. HE'D lie awake waiting for me to mess up.

Now I do plan so we make no unnecessary noise but I told my partner some noise is impossible to prevent.

MY neighbour for instance I have been far too nice with. She constantly causes me stress because she play loud music and unreasonable hours, I've tried to talk to her, in fact sometimes I've lost my cool and banged on the floor, I ended up always apologizing. THOUGH sometimes you can be too nice. SO today I've taken official steps to sort this problem out.

I contacted my landlords and reported her noise pollution. I realised there is compromise and doormat syndrome. I don't want to be a door mat. I've compromised as far as I possibly can, and now it is effecting my quality of life.

I guess "You can put up and shut up but it harbors somewhere and gets you in the end."

ASHA and Jay thank you. I guess the key is to question my motives for speaking and gossiping. LOL

You are correct I only do this around people who seem abusive to me. Maybe saying nothing is the key. OR better still with my partner saying "yes, I made a mistake" and then not letting him knock me out of my center. Yes. No reason to fall off balance because it is perfectly normal to make mistake. I absolutely reserve the right to make mistakes! I agree that I need to see others as equals (different) and not as superior. What does it matter what they think of me. If I want to make improvements fine, but I don't have to butter up to them.

I think it is correct it is another layer of my people pleasing. The last day I went to my Grandmothers, I talked about ME. Okay so I did slip in some about my sister.

The trouble is it isn't anything nice we say about my sister, it is all going on about how poor she is at managing money and how yet again she was mither this one and that one for money.

THIS is judging and putting my sister down, so I think it is time, I didn't speak unless I had something nice to say about my sister.

As for the girl at work. It is correct that I become nervous in her presence and try to fill the gap. MAYBE I should just feel the discomfort and realise there is nothing to fear, it really doesn't matter what she thinks of me. "I am work in progress and that is okay".  Bingo!

Gosh there are lots of layers and ways I people please to get others to like me. I guess I have to be comfortable with not everyone liking me. Since no one is liked by everyone.

Thanks a million Theressa




Friday, June 08, 2001


My niece is 22 years old and has struggled for several years. Her self-esteem is so low, she is making very self-destructive choices. Her physician put her on anti-depressants without getting her into counseling. I think this was very irresponsible of the MD. Do you know of any resources/web sites/articles I could send this uninformed doctor about this issue?  Why not suggest counseling to her yourself?

Thanks, Suzanne

Friday, June 08, 2001

Dear Heather,

I'm glad you posted to this group - it sounds as though you are at a point where you really need the support given here. Your abuser's behavior and your responses sound so familiar. I stayed in a similar relationship for 4 1/2 years because I kept going back, stuck on the emotional rollercoaster. I got so worn out by the relationship it was hard to gather the strength to think clearly and get out. I finally left 1 year ago and cut all ties. It didn't work to try to stay friend because as an abuser, he knew just how to hook me back into the cycle. It has taken this long to get back on my feet completely, but it is so worth the struggle!!! Those patterns won't change, they only get worse. 5, 10, 15 years down the road he will still be abusive whether he's with you or someone else.

I kept hoping he would change, and I felt somehow responsible for his behavior (probably because he kept telling me everything that went wrong was my fault). I minimized his abuse by saying things like, "well he only hit me on my butt (hard enough to bruise me), but it's not like he punched me. And because there were also good times, each occurrence of overt abuse was isolated. I would recover from 1 event and forgive him, so the next event seemed like a whole new problem. The abuse wasn't constant so the whole picture, and long-term severity of the problem, didn't hit me. When I read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" that helped, and counseling helped. When I started writing down all the bad stuff and looking at the whole picture I was shocked at how bad it really was.

I hope you will get to the point where you know you deserve better, to know he won't change and to realize it is a very bad situation!!!

My thoughts and prayers are with you, Suzanne

Friday, June 08, 2001

Dear Cats,

Wow, last night when I posted we were on 37 and when I woke up there was a full Catbox!! Trubble, you are eating entirely too much trout. I think you should eat some of Jake's cheese! (Shhhhh! I did! And he thinks Jay's been eating it! Hehehehe!)

Theressa helps me, that's for sure, Jay! That's why I wondered where she was for all that time when she was feeling poorly. Theressa, today you mentioned that abusers can't deal with mistakes. That was such a theme with my ex. He even said once that he hadn't asked me to marry him because he was afraid of making a mistake, and "everyone would know." He constantly repeated that theme of "mistakes" and not wanting to ever make any. It was so weird! He just could not make a mistake. He got enraged with me if, in his opinion, he made a mistake or if I objected to something he would get really mad because I was accusing him of "making a mistake." So you gave me a great clue (which helps toward closure at least!). Do you have a reading reference for the mistake thing?

Jay, I agree with you about admitting one is depressed. The guy I was mentioning who told me I sounded stressed when I didn't realize it at the time, has all the makings of a verbal abuser, and that's why I react so strongly to him. He's here on the same fellowship I'm on, and is marrying the nicest Brazilian woman. Once when I was talking about my ex, he said he wondered if he had the same qualities. A-HA, huh? At least he is somewhat aware. But his "caring" comments always rub the wrong way, and I love caring comments, that's why I love Brazil. So there is something about him that isn't quite right. I hope it goes well for his fiancée and that she makes him toe the line, but I wonder what will happen when they move to the US.

At least lately, feeling depressed, I woke up in the morning last week and said to myself "You're depressed" then I said "DO something about it!", so that's an improvement!

Heather, I can't find the post where you said your BF bit you in the face. Did he really bite you or did someone mix me up with you? because my ex bit me in the face too. Can someone tell me what is the deal with abusers who bite? Biting seems like a particularly infantile way to show frustration, and it seems psychiatrically unlike hitting (although just as bad). I feel like I should be writing my thesis on abusers at this point! I wish you would!

I am thinking of moving after I get back from my trip to the US. The landlady seems to feel she has rented a friend as I am renting her house. I have to shut my windows and doors so that she doesn't walk right in and start talking, even when I am sitting here typing, obviously working, or on the phone. I tried to get used to it, since I'm a foreigner and fundamentally she is very nice, but for some reason lately I can't deal with it. Probably part of my stress. Yes. Also, I've cooled seriously because there was an incident a couple of weeks ago in which she woke me up at the crack of dawn one day like there was some kind of emergency, wanting the keys to my car. I'm pretty incoherent at the crack of dawn, and I thought my car was blocking theirs. A few seconds later when I woke up a bit, I remembered that I wasn't blocking so i tried to go out and find out what happened, and I was locked in my house because I'd given her my keys! That made me even crosser. I got her attention and it seemed that her daughter's husband had been too lazy to put gas in his car, so it didn't run, and took my car to do errands, as if it was his second car. Errands like picking up some paperwork and taking the kid to school (the kid is old enough to walk the short distance to her high school). Not only that, he brought gas back in my car and for a week my car reeked of gasoline - he must have spilled it.

So I think this is contributing to my depression and stress, because I feel *really* foreign. Everyone thinks Americans are rich, and you have to always be at least somewhat on the lookout for people wanting to exploit. My life and work are academic, so relatively elite here, and it doesn't seem that anyone understands me, which is lonely. Gender relations, as I have been complaining, are very different and sometimes not only hard to figure out, they are personally unacceptable, so that kind of creates loneliness too. I'm torn because i love it here, but lately I have been feeling like I really don't fit in, and maybe I couldn't live here after all. It's really hard to decide who to trust, who to befriend, etc. Obviously I can't leave my car here where I am living, nor my keys while I am traveling. It seems that the landlady assumed an intimacy with me that I simply don't feel, which is very awkward. So that on top of the rough spot with my friend kind of has been throwing me off. I guess that's legitimate!

So now that I have dumped, the Catbox is even fuller!!

Love to all, Perdida

Friday, June 08, 2001

PS Jay,

When I get back to the US, I'll come to England and we can go to The Continent so I can stop being jealous of your trips!

Love, Perdida

Friday, June 08, 2001

Some people are very good at 'pressing the buttons' that upset you. Do you reward them by giving them what they expect?


Friday, June 08, 2001

Hello to everyone, I read all your posts and do get a lot out of it, but I don't always have time to post myself as much as I'd like. I'd like to share with you how I've been handling things lately since I've been feeling really good about it. It is my attitude that has changed which has made the difference more than anything my partner has done. We are living separately (for over 1 1/2 years), and are not supposed to be seeing each other by court order, but have been anyway for 4 months (the probation order has only been in effect for 6 months, prior to that we were seeing each other, trying to work things out.) Anyway, the PO was partly my doing since that is what I had requested, but the final decision was the courts. I regret it now since I think I overreacted out of fear that he was dangerously "on the edge", but have since realized that he only got that scary twice, once when we split and again when he was arrested and the PO was put in place. Once is enough.

There were always problems between us, mostly me not being able to deal with his depression and he not treating me very nicely as a result, but he was always trying to get help and twice went on antidepressants which I now realize is the same two times he became very irrational and hostile. So now he is off medication and depressed again, but at least he is sane and I don't feel threatened. I don't think his depression is cause for him to be banned from seeing his family (especially the kids) since he has always been a wonderfully nurturing father. Part of the cause of his depression has been not growing up with a healthy family but rather than neglecting his kids as he was neglected he gives it his heart and soul but with me he would push me way because he was/is afraid that I have the power to take it all away (which I do and did).

Unfortunately, because he became violent with me that is the consequence in this society (whether it was caused by medication or not) Anyway, he never hurt the kids emotionally or physically and I think their being separated is doing more harm for both parties than good. Now that I've learned some detaching skills and he is off meds that I'm convinced made him completely irrational, I too want to be together because despite his moods, he is a considerate, intellectual, compassionate, loving partner.

So now that I've told you some background, I can get to my point which is how I cope with these moods. I attempt to do what we are all trying to do. I let him feel how he feels, I have my own life, I don't rely on him to be there for me and I tell him how I feel without getting all emotional and upset. We are both upset by the separation, and he tells me all the time how upset and angry he is about the PO, I listen and empathize. Sometimes, I feel angry because I don't like it either and he says to me "at least you have the kids, I'm completely alone" I wouldn't give up my kids for anything, but at least he has peace and quiet and the freedom to take care of himself while I have to take care of 3 little kids, my house, my job, and hardly have time to do anything for me. He does from time to time acknowledge how difficult it is for me, but I get angry over his resentment because if I had my way none of this would have happened and I get tired of empathizing with his depression over this issue when every time I whine about having a stressful day he gets resentful and cuts me off to whine about his situation and how much better mine is.

But I'm proud of me because I don't get raging or bawling or out of control anymore when he's not there for me. I also come right out and tell him if I don't want to hear how upset he is over it, but at other times I can be there for him and he has been there for me. We both accept how the other feels and although we don't always agree that we *should* be feeling a certain way, we don't try to convince each other of that and we don't attack each other. The result is that there are more pleasant times together and less time spent beating a dead horse. I believe in time that we will overcome our personal hard feelings individually and now that I'm not relying on him to change or to be there for me, I can just enjoy what he does have to offer and not worry about blaming myself for his depressed moods even if he does seem to blame me for them sometimes. I know that he doesn't, I also know that at times when it seems he does, it is either my own guilt or just a temporary mood he is in.

Heather, I can really relate to you chasing after him, crying and going in circles, wanting to resolve things. (Once I threw myself on the hood of my partner's car when he was trying to leave. That actually made us both laugh and the argument was over.) But from my own experience, letting him go and just going about doing what makes you happy is the best thing to do. Know that if he loves you he will come back and if he doesn't than he's not worth getting all worked up over. My partner has told me it's over so many times, that it doesn't even phase me anymore, I don't believe him. So I don't spend as many hours devastated by it. If he ever does decide to end it for real, than I know that I will be ok. But come to think of it, now that I don't get all upset by it, he doesn't tell me that anymore. Is that proof that by changing ourselves and our own responses we can change our partners too? Maybe we are both helping each other to change. I don't know, but I do know that by becoming more confident and content with myself, it sure makes a big difference in my perception of my relationship.

I appreciated the exchange between Gordon and FakeSis. It was interesting. Not that it really matters what I think, but just to let you know Gordon, I am one of those who appreciate your long insightful posts. So does FakeSis. And I also don't think there is anything wrong with explaining yourself here in the catbox because I think that is part of why this is place is so cool, because it gives us insight into how other people think and that can be helpful to keep in mind when dealing with others. And Gordon did you notice your wish came true and Dr. Irene didn't delete the first paragraph of that one post I sent. Only the unnecessary stuff went *blip*. And in case you were looking for permission, I don't mind at all if you send me mail. I hope everyone has a great weekend. Take care. Mel


Friday, June 08, 2001

Yeah Perdida you come here and we can go to France and if we hired one of those big campers we could bring Theressa along and all go though Amsterdam plus any other catbox cats who wanted the ride! Get a fellowship in my hometown.

But if Trubble comes he can't have any cheese as I think it was AJ who said it is dangerous for cats. (or was that chocolate?) No Way Jose! I eat Trout with Cheese Sauce and Salmon Mousse with Chocolate filling. Plus, *I* wanna come!


Perdida I think part of your depression might be you are homesick?

Dear Heather, All I feel up to telling you right now is in Jay's story - one of the interactive emails on the home page.

Actually right now I think it is that part of my life that is getting to me, I have been feeling quite low. I think what I need more than anything is a longer break. Going to see AJ did me loads of good but I wasn't away from home long enough. As soon as the house sale gets through I am going to do it whether anyone wants to come with me or not. I'll come with you AuntieJay!

HKK is as tall as his dad nearly so he is going to be a giant! He really acted up last night and I don't know why but I could handle him, but collapsed in a heap of tears afterwards.  Maybe it is just I am still very tired. I just want to sleep and I keep worrying I will get depressed again. I guess if I do I will handle it differently. I certainly won't be taking any more prescribed drugs. I printed out details of the ones I took at the resource centre today and all the side effects that were dangerous were the ones I had. I doubt if he will even bother to look at the pages, but I am going to try and show Jake. No real hope of a breakthrough but who knows; as long as I have no real expectations from him.  Medication can really help depression Jay. It's not unusual to have to try several before finding something that works for you. Please don't give up.

But in a way my anger turned there- at the drug manufactures and I guess like you say Dr Irene at our crazy laws. I just don't get that the English say their kids can marry at 16 and leave home; yet it is still 21 in America. Really, it's 18 in most states, though drinking is 21 in many states. (our age of consent is 18). I know there are places in the US where girls marry at 12 but it is a huge place and we are not.

What I mean is there is a greater spread of cultures etc.

Theressa I am lost on the word 'mither' Me too.. It is definitely Northern but I never heard that before and it sounds like Yorkshire where I lived for a while. (Ilkley moor ba''at - literally on the edge) jay

Friday, June 08, 2001

Soul is not ego, yet a full experience of ego may lead to Soul experience. Soul can be described as the ego of the ego. A person's "ego" can be likened to an adolescent personality "part." Nice. Look here too.


Friday, June 08, 2001

hi, its heather. i really need help. this is going to be lengthy, forgive me. i would have just sent it to dr. Irene but i don't have a way to pay for an email to send it to her. so i'm going to post this on here. this is an email i just received from the guy im still seeing. background information, in a hopefully condensed form: we went to see a movie. i saw two guys whom i work with in the parking lot, and briefly said hello and exchanged jokes/small talk. the one has a crush on me, and i told S *the guy i'm seeing* that this was so.. in what i thought to be a funny manner.. cos i have no feelings for the kid. i said then "but i don't like him, he's not the dateable type." S then basically told me to shut up and quit evaluating every guy i saw as potential dating material. i was not doing this. i was making what i thought were innocent comments. i never comment on any one in the manner of 'oh id date him' only 'i wouldn't date him.' and this, rarely. but he didn't see this, and i attempted to explain.

we were in the car, he was driving back to his house where i had left my car. i told him i thought that it was jealous of him to even point that out. was i right in assuming that? or am i seeing things that aren't there? i know i probably should not have said that, because then he became very angry. and starting speeding and otherwise driving recklessly. and at one point said "don't f*** with a sociopath when they're driving a car." (he believes he is an undiagnosed sociopath). and i said "you're kidding me, right.." and he went on to say that he couldn't control thoughts entering into his head. i don't know what thoughts, and i don't want to know what thoughts. driving the car off the road?? so he continued driving erratically.

then proceeded to call me a "self-righteous b****" and said i was looking for drama and a fight. this was in response to me attempting to understand why he would have even said things like that to me that even hinted at anything violent. im "self righteous" i guess because when im fighting, i tend to state things rather than ask questions about them. which is wrong, and i am trying to change.

poor description. but here is the email: "Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is letting go of something every day."

-- Zen Proverb

I'm not sure what you really want me to say. I'm not sure, but then again that doesn't matter. I'm going to say what I want to say anyways. Even if I knew what to say to free you from all this pain. Yes you are a self-righteous b()ch lately, and way too much. You've been searching for importance and drama that isn't there. You know what yea, I used to enjoy some drama in my relationships and yea I used to enjoy some conflict. But f*(k Heather, I'm tired of that shit. So tired that last night, when you were being a rude overly simplifying critic of me, my writing, and my morals, I just wanted to get you horny and to s&^%w you so that the only damned thing that would come out of your mouth for awhile was moans. I know I'm an a88759le, I know I deliver my views in the "wrong way" a lot of the time. Well it has served me well before, and it has caused conflict before as well. So no I don't view that as a problem. Yes I want to work on that some to make you happy, as happy as you can be with me, while still being ME. And not some perfect world version of what the fuck you think I could be or should be. I know damnit, don't even harp on that. You don't think that, or want that, whatever. Fine well ya damn well better stop feeling that too. Damnit Heather. I am f*&*ing happy with myself and I don't need to question myself or search for problems. Yes I am trying to improve my tolerance. Because I want to be able to be more tolerant without having to think of being tolerant. I want it to be breed into me basically. I want to be a better person, but I don't need drama dragging me down and preventing that, because I'm fighting the drama instead of improving myself. Heather you are something else. And I love you. And I respect you. And I care about you. Sorry you feel the way you do about some things. But do what you want to do about that. I just want to enjoy you this summer, and I had thought about enjoying you beyond that.

what am i supposed to do here??? if anyone needs more information just ask. but i need help here, and im afraid to just walk out and leave....i just want to know what made him say these things. what triggered it? oh and he just told me "hun i dont have a reason to fight like this. you are not so important or so bad or so anything that i feel like having world war 3 in order to be with you." is this supposed to make me feel good or something???? help!!!! love, heather



Saturday, June 09, 2001

Dear Heather if that is what he wrote I think you need to get out of the relationship like yesterday. I would feel pretty scared if I got into the situation you describe. Loving people do not drive cars dangerously saying they are a psychopath and he might be. If not then VERY sick. Please this is beyond just a catbox. Could you talk to someone at hand. I don\t know if your mum would be the best person or do you have a counseling service you could use for young people. I am not so sure you shouldn't also talk to the police.

That email is downright scary and you could not hope for a future with anything but pain in from a boy like that. PLEASE LOOK AFTER YOU AND GET OUT , You may not see it as such but believe me this guy is playing games with your head and you need help. love and prayers. jay She's right Heather.

Saturday, June 09, 2001

Hello :o) My name is Bunny and I was just told about this site today. I have been reading the posts and I feel I have found a site that well be very helpful for me. As I get more custom to your site, I hope to start posting more. I have been married for 31 years and have let myself be abused for 30 years. I was sexually abused from the age of 8 to about 17, as far as I can remember. But I have been working very hard on trying to find the answers to many of my questions. Nice to meet all of you. Bunny Welcome!

Saturday, June 09, 2001

Hi all.

I received a reality slap today from my elder kids. I was playing Uno with them while the baby napped when my elder son piped piped up "Boy, things sure are a lot more fun when daddy isn't around." (their father is an OTR driver) His sister replied with... "Yeah, no one picks on us or makes fun of us." I felt just like the wind was knocked out of me. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. What have I been doing wasting my time thinking his being gone would make things easier? The kids know. The kids are hurting too. I feel positively ashamed now that I allowed this to happen.

I picked up my log and started writing in it again, recording all the STUPID stuff he does on a day to day basis. Now I gotta do this for them, not just me. It adds an entirely new dimension, one that makes me feeling a bit like a she bear protecting her cubs.

Jeanne (formally had all she can take in Tennessee)

Saturday, June 09, 2001

Sorry about the double post. Little one crawled into my lap and "helped" mamma push the send button twice. :-)  Not a problem Jeanne.


Sunday, June 10, 2001

well, he must be crazy. either that, or i am psycho and im not sure which is the truth. jay, im technically "out" of the situation, and not by my own hand. he decided that he wanted to stay single for the summer. (and i felt a sudden wave of relief because i could not bring myself to end the relationship..)

the reasoning? well after the whole email incident which i posted...(and he sounds more dangerous than he is)...i wanted to know why, if i was all these horrible things he says i am, why in the world would he even be wanting a relationship with me? he refused to answer that question. he refused to answer a lot of my questions, on grounds that my questions were 'insulting', 'rude', and 'hurtful' to him. does anyone know how this could be so when the questions were asked after he made a statement i didn't understand, and was trying to clarify? is this an abusive behavior as well?

at any rate, i got to be 'too much' for him. he told me i didn't want to realize that im 'paranoid' and i enjoy conflict and look for drama, and that he just can't handle me if im going to not even change myself. which is amazing because i don't realize that im any of those things. i don't realize that i do certain things, and when i asked how he saw them, he'd just get angrier and think i was attacking him. ? maybe its pointless to even try and understand here.

has anyone on this site experienced anything close to this? if so, do you know why they did what they did? i guess its just a question of why any abuser does what they do.

and now im afraid that i was an abuser too, in the relationship. he certainly made me feel like it. i feel sort of crazy right now, like i completely missed the mark somewhere. like my good intentions counted for nothing, because he saw how 'i really am.' am i missing something here? could i really be acting in totally kneejerk ways and hurting him??? how could i not be seeing it??

oh and by the way ive been out at my local Barnes & noble reading the books posted on this web site. im planning on taking another day soon to do it really absorb some things. i think more of the problem here is why in the world did i gravitate to this guy? and how has my past effected it? im not in therapy for no reason, that's for sure...


Sunday, June 10, 2001

sorry forgot to sign my name.. heather

Sunday, June 10, 2001

Hi all. Steve here. I know, I’ve been away for awhile. Long story(ies). So much here to catch up on...hmm... I seem to have stumbled into a war  Hi Steve!

Wait, I have to read some more...

Ok, here I go...

Never should we say “Oh God. It’s morning” when we wake up. Instead we should say “Good morning God! Thank you for the day. I won’t throw it away.”

Irene said (to Asha): But, my point is, from a perspective of Self, that you went to Gordon's defense - when Gordon doesn't need defending.”

From my limited view, it appears to be more accurate to say that Asha went to the defense of some of her principles (which are pretty good IMO) - what she believes. Gordon’s situation was, to Asha, something that she wanted to address because it was exposing some behavior that “doesn’t add good into the world”, in fact, may add harm. So, yes, she did go to Gordon’s defense, as a by-product of defending her principles. Yes. I think it’s great. As long as she does it *within* those same principles. And she seems to have done that, from what I’ve read so far. Also, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being on the same side as someone else. Or, on a side all by your Self. It’s not “where you are”. It’s “why are you there”... 

Anyways, maybe some of the stuff was sort of where it didn’t belong. In the Catbox at least. I think the discussions were enlightening at times and they shouldn’t be discontinued. Perhaps they should be taken to a different forum. Perhaps not.

It’s difficult, because the discussion about Self can sometimes slip thru the gray mist of boundaries, to a lawless world - in fact, sometimes it’s absolutely necessary to access these kinds of issues if we want to work on the Self.

*Everyone* who took part in Gordongate will surely have something new to learn about themselves. Giggle!

But hey, I’m not getting involved. I’m just watching through the looking glass...

Irene often says “when in doubt, do nothing”. We are so conditioned to “reacting”. When we are *in doubt*, we tend to react before we respond. This leads to a false response, because we haven’t understood the situation clearly before we’ve reacted. If we could just sit tight on our reactions, I believe we could come up with a true response from the Self.

Irene is VERY good at what she does. I don’t think she’s even aware of how good she is. Her approach doesn’t always work for everyone, but for me, it’s worked really well. I am the kind of hard-case denial type and needed a pretty hard line approach. She gave it to me hard...and somewhere inside me was enough sense to not run away when I felt hurt. I trusted Irene. She wasn’t perfect, but she was onto something big. The biggest thing in my entire life. She lit a fire in me that will not die. She knows how much it means to me. :)

Gordon could learn something if he would not be offended by Irene. Irene’s blue pen works on 2 levels. Sometimes, her unconscious blue pen is even more fascinating than her conscious one. Think about it. If she ever says anything to you that you find offensive, realize, she doesn’t have the power to offend you. Only you do. She doesn’t want the power to offend you. When she pushes buttons on us, it’s only because we have buttons to push. I think she intentionally hunts down our buttons (perhaps not always consciously though) because she knows that’s where our problems are located.


Oh no! Irene keeps pushing my meds button. Ouch. Ouch! Hi Irene. You’re going to love me even more after this soft rant...(Steve has a warm smile):

The one area where Irene and I depart company; that holy-grail of anti-depressants. I think she may be a little too politically correct on this issue. Time will tell, as more and more studies are revealing the advantage of cognitive behavioral therapy vs meds. My Self, does not want to mask ANY of my problems with meds. It wants to be brave, and given the chance to be STRONG and FREE. All I need is the knowledge that I alone am responsible for my feelings. Sure, others in my past have given me poor programming, but it is I who NOW, either accepts that poor programming, or rejects it and seeks better programming.

Irene has often said that I see danger where there is none. That has been true many times. I thank her for giving me that awareness. However there are times when I see danger, and she does not, and she hasn’t been successful in convincing me I am wrong. In the meds issue, the question there a REAL danger? Is Steve seeing reality, or is he seeing “danger where there is none”?

What I think...Meds may do something for a sick society. At least, they may level the spikes. What else they accomplish is not very clear. I believe society really needs something more dramatic than “meds”, which is an extremely weak approach IMO. Anti-depressant meds don’t appear to have done anything good for the evolution of the species. In fact, they may be a stumbling block to true social evolution.

To date, I am quite convinced that meds are, most of the time, at odds with the Self, and in fact not very good at helping one in the journey of Self-Awareness. Meds are something to sell, not heal. They are a product of commerce, not communication. They are a mask on the soul, not a door to perception... Perhaps the odd dose of LSD, mescaline or psilocybin could be helpful, but Prozac? Prozac is just commerce.

And there are even worse “approved” compounds than Prozac. 

Some of them, you don’t come back from. And that is a crime against humanity.

I told you it was a button... I'm not so sure. You're not wrong Steve and cognitive behavior therapy is much more preferable a tx. But, sometimes you have to kick the depression just to help yourself get treated! Plus, cognitive treatment typically takes 3 months. That's a long time to hurt. And, it's not magic. Some people are helped by it big time, but for others, it doesn't do the trick. Nevertheless, and it's no button to disagree with me, I'm of the school that recommends you do the meds thing immediately so you have the "stuff" to work on the stuff that created the depression in the first place. 

>: |

Anyway, let’s all keep plugging away at our Selves. Forget about whoever we may be tempted to blame for our own mistakes. It just doesn’t work. It keeps you down in the mud puddle, wasting more time. Stay out of the mud puddle. Time waits for no-one.

All bow your heads for the “(Wo)Man’s Prayer”: Ha ha!  

“I’m a (wo) man.

I can change.

If I have to.


Steve Always good to hear from you Steve...


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