Comments for Catbox 22

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

21 edited. Finally.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Well, the silent treatment I was getting ended and I had a pleasant, non-confrontational, just-the-news conversation with my ex. The conversation did not contain any statement from him to the effect that he was getting therapy, and I didn't ask. In other words, last week's clearly-articulated condition of us staying together - that he get therapy by himself - was overlooked. I can see that I will have to ratchet up the communication. How do I do this? Even after everything I have written about him on this site, I am still trying to accomplish this without leaving. How do I give him time and space to get to therapy "on his own" without "making" him do it?

I can see that he is trying to give me what I want - i.e. space - but the fact is that I want LESS space with a HEALTHY person. The only reason I have limited his calling and contact is because of his temper and abuse, and negativity about my life and my work. It's clear that he is trying to make me feel bad about what I'm doing so I will drop everything and come and be with him. THAT'S why I want space! I'd really rather be with a loving supportive guy and then I wouldn't need so much space. I'd be happy to talk to somebody supportive every day.

I re-read the posts, and I can see what Dr. Irene said about him "pacifying" me. That's exactly how this "pleasant" conversation felt, and I didn't feel pacified, I felt irritated and trapped.

Dr. Irene said I might have to out and out leave him, so I guess I better prepare myself. There are couples on this site who have made it through without breaking up - do you have any advice for me? There is, of course, a list of reasons why I would want to stay with this person as well as the acute reasons why I absolutely don't want to stay. I look forward to reading everyone's input.

Thanks, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Where the couples on the site make it through both are prepared to admit they are part of the problem. Perdita, I can tell you that in a marriage you need someone who has respect for what you are doing. It is really hard to live with someone who is disinterested and it gets harder. Marriage seems to me to give the abuser an invitation to give in and impose a reign of terror. Whether passive aggressive or openly physical it unleashes the worst.

Much though I love my own husband. (Yes, I have concluded I do so the anger must be going). I know now that if I could start over again with the knowledge I have now then I would have really worked a lot harder on whether or not he was the right person for me.

Just disinterest alone is very hard to live with and it doesn't make for any kind of happiness. Without mutual respect I think there can be no happiness at all. Having it all on one side is hard work and wears you down.

dear Sharon, Hugs and how did your date go? keep strong! Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Jay Sharon here. Well, my date last night turned out "pretty good" well almost. We met at a local coffee place, talked for about 30 minutes, then he asked me if I wanted to walk across the street for dinner and a blues concert. I felt comfortable enough with it, so I said sure. I mean, he seemed nice enough. So, we had a nice dinner and at 9pm we walked over and watched "Mick Martin" for about 2 hours. Around 10:30 he asked me, during the concert, "what was one of my sexual fantasy." Mind you, we weren't touching or anything, just sitting next to each other. I think he hit this subject a little too early for me!!! Even though I didn't say it, I thought "RED FLAG". The guy is definitely smooth. I'm not looking for smooth. I'm looking for real. Anyway, at 11pm I informed him I was getting sleepy so he walked me to my car. He was a little stand-offish, though he gave me a hug and told me that he'd call me on Monday. Do I think I'll hear from him again? No, I don't think so. I presented myself as a lady; I think he was looking for a quick thing. Maybe he'll change his mind. But for me, if it doesn't feel right, look right, act right, IT'S NOT RIGHT!!! Then to take it one step further, Why am I still so hooked in by Dr. Psycho. I have made no contact - 19 days today - and I have not heard from him either. I really am trying to stay strong here, but its hard. I get sooooo lonely!! But I miss him, though I know I will seriously regret contacting him. He will be a real ass about things. I really don't even know why I miss him - he was so strange acting, so cruel, so "weird" - he did have a unique sense of humor. Yea, maybe that's it. I have no clue. All I know its taking all I have to not call him. So, thanks for the support.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

STAY STRONG!!! We're there with you!! Easy to get hooked on Mr. Psycho. Psychos plan it that way.

Dear Jay, thanks for your advice. I was feeling like my future marriage might become a lock down. Today I called to mark a time for us to talk because I was that unhappy. I called him at work, since he works 18 hours a day there's not many times and places to get a hold of him, and I wanted like I said to "make an appointment." As an aside, the times that I could talk to him were getting narrower and narrower, because I even got yelled at for sending "pissy emails" if there was anything serious in them! The squeeze was already on!

Well guess what. He was cold when he answered, which wasn't that unusual, then he said "I didn't think you had my work number." After a deep breath double take, I realized HE THOUGHT I WAS ANOTHER WOMAN!!!!! Talk about a great cue to break things off. I asked him who he thought I was and he said he thought i was an ex who had called last weekend (which he didn't share with me at the time). I said that I was very unhappy, that I couldn't trust him, that I couldn't come and be with him under these circumstances, and that I had called to make a time when we could talk. He had already started screaming at me about calling him at work, and that he was a good person. I told him he needed six months of therapy before we could talk again, but I don't know if he heard me because he was screaming and then he hung up. I called again to reinforce the message that it was over - or maybe this was the second call - communication gets so messed up so fast with him screaming over me like that that I don't remember - then I had to call a third time to ask that he be ethical about the stuff of mine that's at his house until I could come and get it (I am out of town for a few months). So I caught him messing up, which made him instantly rabid.

Okay, Sharon, let's both be strong now. I won't be answering any communication from him until I am assured that he is in therapy. So I will be strong with you. If you ever feel like calling YOUR Mr. Psycho, post a note and I will tell you not to! And please do the same for me!

Imagine mixing up the voice of your fiancée - three year relationship - with the voice of another woman. I keep thinking I have lived everything with this guy and then he surprises me again.

hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Hi, all!

It's impossible for me to keep up anymore! So I'll comment on a couple of things then say something about myself.

First Theressa, awhile back you asked what is meant by lack of center. Jay gave you a great answer! I remember a therapist telling me that to be "centered" means that you have an unshakable, solid sense of who you are. When I saw my Dr. Z last week, she said that she senses something different in me, like I'm more sure of who I am and am comfortable with it. Hooray! I guess I'm getting centered!

Sharon, as awful and weird as that guy is, he is at least familiar. That's probably what you are missing. I know in regard to myself, if my H doesn't react to something with hostility, when he does or says something understanding and rational, I feel real funny inside, sort of unsettled. Strange, huh! But not so strange when I consider that hostility, suspicion, and hatefulness are what I'm used to. As painful as it is, it is predictable and familiar. I've often wondered if i could deal with a new and improved husband--too strange! I guess I could if I was a new and improved Becky, and that's what I'm working on. So stay strong and remind yourself that it's okay to be with yourself for awhile; in fact, it's probably better because you can concentrate on you. I've read your posts about this guy and he sounds downright sadistic and warped! It's a shame he's a psychologist--just gives skeptical people like my h reason to dismiss all psychologists as bogus.

As for myself: I got icky news. My therapist is going into private practice at the end of the month. I can't follow her because I can't afford 100.00/hr. So I'll stay at the clinic. She has another person lined up to take me. Darn! really, I wish i could quit therapy altogether, but i seem to need this once a month touchstone.

Also, I've given a lot of thought to how to get my life back. I think I've been so tied up in this marriage thing that I've had little energy for anything else. I'm amazed I got through school and am working! But I want more. I'd like to take some courses in my field. I'd love a degree or even certificate in Reading and/or Adult Ed. I'm looking into internet courses. The nearest universities are an hour or more away and I'm not up for that now. I'd also like to get back into writing. I used to write all the time, even had 2 stories published. But that was long ago, after my second son was born I had no time or energy. But my kids are grown, and I'd like to divert the energy I've put into trying to single handedly save my marriage into writing. My brain feels dry though! Any ideas?

If I ever get my own mess resolved, I'd love to work with abused women in some manner.

That's all for now! Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Hi PALS, B. here,

Just a very quick note:

Jay, I'm ever so glad you're doing so fine! You sound really strong. Concerning Sepia: you can't "recommend" it, because Homeopathic remedies are given personally, after a personal diagnosis of your personality and situation at the time. So you could be Sepia, but I could be Pulsatilla, see?

Theressa, You are doing great too! So glad to read about you and your ex! I felt, too, that the "fling" was doomed... but you know, you had something to learn here.

As for cleaning and being late: your ex is partly right, but that is not the point. The point is that you are now getting yourself emancipated from the reign of fear. Part of it is being laid back. You need it to heal. You need to learn to flow instead of to control all the time, and what you are going through is part of it. So just tell him this is how you are right now. You are learning to live comfortably with your self. Cleaning "too much" is also disrespectful - of the Self. Waste of energy. You are not perfect. OK. So what. You are human (Surprise! Surprise!). So being late inconveniences him. it's his problem. Take your time, cope with what you can, one thing at a time. You are doing great.

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Dear B, yes you qre right. I 'm a bit new to homeopathy having always been a lot more keen on aromatherapy.

Dear Becky. You sound really good. Strong and not depressed. Adult Education is a lot of fun and doesn't carry the hassles of teaching children. And go for it on the writing...If you got published before you will have some great stuff in you to get published now! I think I am going with my friend's theory about creativity more and more. You do sound better, like your therapist said, like you are more centred.

Dear Perdita, I am sorry things happened like they did for you but I can't help wondering if you had a lucky escape..

Dear Sharon. Keep strong!

Dear all, Hugs. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

I am very torn. On the one hand, I try not to engage, knowing when I do that I will yell back. On the other hand, I feel I am being overly objective and thinking even if I yell back, I am an abuser as accused? Could this ambivalence be due to having parents that never apologized when I approached them to tell them they hurt me, instead I get and continue to get that I am being disrespectful (when I call them on it?)? Current issue: My husband woke me up the other night, then came into bed and hugged me in a way that pinned me down, I yelled for him to let me go four times before he did. He claims I yelled at him first and he did let me go (regardless if it too 4 yells) claiming I could have gotten free. I have since moved his clothes upstairs and told him if he refuses to acknowledge his behavior inappropriate and do something about his need to control me rather than himself, we are headed for divorce. He then threatens me by saying he will make me pay for damage due to him getting a vasectomy (although I had no other choice, the pill gave me migraines/high breast cancer risk, diaphragm did not work due to tipped uterus, IUD could not get in, too painful); he would make me pay him percentage of appreciation earned on the house I own that he does not pay mortgage on or contribute....I know these are threats, why am I even feeling the slightest bit threatened? Please help, your straight forward commentary is very useful. PS I also told him to find a place in two weeks or pay rent, he refuses, so I said I would seek out a peaceful restraining order (SO he counters with he will seek one for me and said he would put a bruise on himself to show I hit him???) HELP>

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Dear CatBox,

Please help me! I posted earlier that I'm leaving my husband as soon as my income tax check comes in (hopefully soon!). I think I made a mistake in telling my husband that I'm leaving. Now he's decided to leave (this is a rented house) which he's done several times before during our 12 years together. It's like as soon as he realized I was serious, he has to get the jump on me.

Is this what controller/abusers do? Is this him trying to control the situation? He's gone all day with his brother and other family members and comes home with new clothes, other new items and tells me he's glad he's free now and starting to live life and he's just taking care of himself.

Mind you, we have been working a small business together until the beginning of January when he decided my son and I were not doing enough so he took control of the money and threatened to kick my son out. That's when I decided I had had enough, this was not the first time HE'S decided this about us.

I became the outcast of his family a few years back when I tried to tell certain members of his family about his physical abuse of me and his controlling and his blaming of me and my son for what HE does. They would either agreed with him that it was my son's fault or they would refuse to acknowledge me or what I was telling them. He has them convinced I am crazy and that's why he has had to leave us.

I know I'm making the right decision to leave, in fact I wished I would have left a long time ago. I just feel so hurt and frustrated and angry and lonely watching him "liberate" himself from us when HE'S been abusive to US! He has always turned things around to make me and my son the "crazy" ones, the "lazy" ones, the "problem" with our marriage and family.

The last few days I'm feeling lonely, afraid, unsure of myself, hurt by his "glad I'm free" attitude. I do feel better for writing this and please will someone respond to me? I need help sometimes to see things more clearly. Thanks, Laura Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Laura Anne again,

I forgot to mention that my husband is an alcoholic and is drinking every night now. He is also addicted to Vicadin (pain killer) and bounces back and forth between the two. He's also bipolar and who knows if and when he takes that medication? This helps me to realize that he may act and tell me he's so happy to be rid of us but his escaping tells me otherwise.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

to whoever wrote that her SO will sue because he got a vasectomy:

What a joke. I doubt a case like that has ever gone to court. Gee, did you hold a gun to his head and the surgeon's head in order to get them to do it. You gotta laugh at how low he is stooping to get control over you! I would love to see him tell that to Judge Judy! She would likely say: "Excuse me but are you crazy?" (to him of course)

Sandra

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

SHARON,

A word of warning, if you've read any of my posts learn from them. I ignored my strong held values. EVEN when I knew deep inside that I wasn't being true to myself I ignored them. I made a big mistake, I slept with another guy. I threw all caution to the wind. People here told me, in fact I told myself, but I wanted attention so I sought it out and realise now how wrong I was. JUST BE Careful your not just filling in a hole with the new guy.

ALSO Sharon it is early days for me, though now I am back with my X, things feel different. As I say early days. BUT the respect he has shown me up to now, even in areas like when I said I don't want to sleep together until I feel okay, he said FINE. This time it isn't like the other times I went back to him. YOU see this last time we split, I moved out and was serious, I totally detached from him. WHAT HAPPENED HE WOKE UP, he saw what only he could see, HOW POORLY HE WAS BEHAVING. He saw the ABUSE. He saw what he had to lose and also what he had to give to make it work.

He is working on changes, we have been so honest with each other. Things I never dared share with him, I did, even about me being weak and sleeping with the new guy I met. In the past he'd have yelled and cursed and abused me. He didn't he listened respectfully without anger and abuse, he wasn't defensive or blaming, he said "It hurts but I know I played a role myself. We can work through this". YOU KNOW I NEVER dreamt we'd be where we are at now. I FEEL much stronger. Though I am taking one day at a time.

I know I don't deserve poor behaviour. AND also now I no longer feel it is about dependency. I want to be where I am!! LACK OF communication can be catastrophic, but also before this can happen you have to show you mean business.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Hi All,

Thanks Jay for clarifying what centering meant, I THOUGHT this but needed to make sure.

B, Thanks for the support! I've always had a problem with know what is okay, and healthy for me. I tend to go in extremes either way. I either write lists and feel controlled. OR I am too laid back and feel frustrated that I never get anything done.

How can I get balanced? YOU see I want to have respect for myself and I expect this includes being in a healthy environment. So not tidying up is one of these things, ISN'T IT???

Also about the lateness, the other day I wanted to be on time, I was excited about getting home cuz my partner was coming around. It felt different than 7 months ago when I resented being on time. I DID IT OUT OF LOVE where as I used to do it out of FEAR.

Isn't it funny the pardoxes of life, the mindset and how you think can totally change the reason for doing something.

LOTS of these changes just seem to have fell into place. I am one minute thinking gosh I will never love me enough to speak up and say what I want. THEN I DID!! It is as if it happens just at the right time, it smoothly switches gears. DO YOU FIND THIS??

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Jay - thanks for your words on marriage. You and others have said that both partners need to acknowledge responsibility, and this is what I have never gotten from my ex. Even the other day, when he had mistaken me for another woman on the phone (I just find that so ASTONISHING!), he was yelling about being a "good person" as if that was the most important part of the communication, and like he desperately needed to reinforce his self-perception. I think that by telling him I would like him to get therapy, he thinks I am saying he is a bad person. I feel so sad when he hears things that way. I think he knew this break was coming, because he was really abusive at Christmas and this was finally something I decided not to overlook. Last week, on the phone, he was all sad and I asked why and he said "I want to know when you are leaving me." I just told him he was acting like a victim. I had already told him what I needed for the relationship to continue - so I guess this was my answer. I would not get what I needed!

Over the last month, I have given him this site, told him I was doing another tutorial on the web, and gave him several of the most pertinent links, mostly from this site but also from others. He said he was reading the sites I gave him. So I know he has been feeling like he is a bad person, and facing what I feel to be abusive behavior. I don't think he believes he is abusive - I think he thinks I am mean or nuts (and yet wants to stay with me - what is that about?).

But thinking about the right person - yeah, he probably isn't. There are some things that are really important to me, like my religion, that he doesn't share and I have always felt like he might try to remove me from my participation in my religion through making me late for things, belittling my religion and religion in general (he is an atheist), etc etc. So I need to listen to those red flags and pick someone who shares in the things that I value.

Jay, I also feel like i had a lucky escape because he gave me an "exit cue" by mistaking me on the phone for another woman - but I have had many such cues and some a lot worse than this, and I haven't taken the cues until now. I also wish that I could have had a calm conversation with him about why I was unhappy enough to leave, but what was I thinking? I've never had a calm conversation with him about relationship issues!! Why would it start now?!

I was re-reading the posts, and one from Lisa said that yelling made her bf feel better. I was glad to finally understand that because that sure seemed to be what was going on with my ex. Yelling is a smokescreen, and something to deflect responsibility from him, a distraction - is it even a physical catharsis for someone under tension? I've never been with someone who yelled and screamed so much. It was actually somewhat fascinating because it was such a PERFORMANCE. When he raged, I would just sit back and watch, because there was no way to communicate with him while he was raging. It always looked like some kind of altered state of consciousness, like someone "running amok" - that Indonesian psychiatric syndrome. Is rage some kind of altered state? It sure got scary, and scary isn't interesting.

Sharon, I am kind of sad and missing the familiarity of an intimate, and I also feel sorry for this guy. This is sort of a pattern, and I usually feel sad and sorry, and then I call or I am receptive to overtures. But when I tell people I broke up with him, I get the "why?" question. You know what? This makes me real strong, because if I explained to people why I broke up with him (revealing behavior of his that I have been concealing all this time), and how long I have been putting up with this treatment from him, everyone I know would lose respect for me if they knew I had put up with this kind of stuff I have put up with. Try imagining telling everything to your friends and family, and imagine what they would think of *you*. I use this exercise because obviously my own gut feeling and loss of respect for myself was never enough! Don't call him, Sharon!

Theressa, what an upper your story is. I am so happy that your ex seems to be doing some real thinking and working on himself. I wish you all the best and hope that my story ends as well!

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear All, Sharon here. Thank you for all of your support. Major hugs to everyone here who is helping me through this. Its been 22 days since Dr. Psycho and I last spoke. I have not called him!! I am really getting happy about myself again. Its like a major milestone. Unfortunately, we live real close to each other. I noticed he wasn't home this weekend, but got back yesterday....I also noticed that he is NOT going to work. I think something is brewing on that front.....this guy has a Ph.D. (1992) in psychology, and the state hired him 4 years ago without a license. For some reason, he has not gotten his license. The state now has a provision that new psychologists hired must have a license within 2 years in order to continue to work for the state. He works at a young men's institution for youthful offenders. His job has always and forever stressed him out. I think either they fired him, are investigated him, he stressed out and went postal (he has 2 lawsuits against the department) or taking vacation for a few weeks. Knowing him since he always has high drama in his life, he probably has something brewing. So, whatever it is, I hope he is getting "paid back" for all of the sleepless nights, mental cruelty, crazymaking behavior and "crap" he put me through. I hope its finally hitting him BIG TIME. Oh my, is this my anger coming out?

Thank you all for your support!!!!!!! I wish we lived closer and could start a support group!!! HUGS!!

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear all, Still hanging strong.....the guy that I met for coffee last Friday? The one that I wrote about that asked me about my "sexual fantasy.? He emailed me just now with a concern - he said that he felt as though he had too much sexual desire for my taste. ??? Well, you don't just "give it up" at the first meeting.......so, like I said, "red flag."

Dr. Psycho is at work today (he works across the street from me). He goes in late these days. I wonder if he won his lawsuit...mmmmmmmmmm. He always is victimized, one way or another, and yet he is the one who abuses people and anything else he can get without working for it. I'm learning about "these kind." I have not been playing the single field for very long (3 years, but half of that time was with him) and I am finding out - there are lots of abusers out there! Is there any decent men out there?

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Omigod Sharon,

You are in a really yucky physical position - living close to Psycho Guy AND working across the street? Did I get that right? It would take Super Human to not glance here and there to see where he was and if he came in and if he was home, and all. I would never say, "STOP!" because it's natural to look up and down the street! The day will come that you don't notice, I promise you!

But, isn't he also the guy who tried to run you off the road or something? It sounds like he is heading for some kind of breakdown. (or do ALL abusers always look like they're about to have a breakdown?) If you stay mum, you might get relief by him getting fired and moving away or something. If not, can you move apartments? At least you wouldn't be so close ALL the time.

Please stay strong and stay away from him. He doesn't just sound unhealthy, he sounds dangerous!

Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

PS Sharon,

What the coffee guy said to you about him having too much sexual desire for your taste was a challenge. Don't bite. He wants you to feel like you are frigid or behind the times or something. He was trying to excuse his crass behavior by making you wrong. I hope you told him that not everyone wants to jump in bed with a first date, and that if he hadn't been such a pushy dog he might SOMEDAY have had a chance with you!

I always think of great things to say the next day...

Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Kathleen, ohmigod is right. Yes, Dr. Psycho works right there. We both live and work within a mile from each other. I hate it! However, it does make life interesting at times. We have not ran into each other yet. But yes, he is the guy that did the high speed chase in the neighborhood last Sat. night. I did file a police report.

The "Mr. Coffee sex man" from what I can surmise, said that he felt that with my lack of comment from what he was asking me about my "sexual fantasy" gave him the indicator that I wasn't "wild enough for his tastes". Well, I got rid of him!! I emailed him and told him that my instincts were telling me to feel "odd" about what was being presented here, and go find someone else. Whatever! God! Good thing we never got close!

I am meeting some new people for coffee that have responded to my ad. I use a lot of discretion - I don't give out too much info about myself - and we need in public - usually for coffee. Its a diversion for me so I am not thinking about contacting Dr. Psycho. I know that in time "this will pass" where I won't be thinking about him so much. All I have to do is remember all of the weird crazymaking behavior - and that he was not a healthy man - he will abuse the next one who comes along who wants intimacy with him. He is not capable of love and he truly was narcissistic. Just gotta stay strong, strong, strong. And - I've lost 3 lbs!!!!!! 17 more to go!!!!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Hi all, gosh how many of us are there here in the catbox now? I couldn't post for a couple of days as my computer went down. Actually, it may have been a good thing as it kind of took the edge out of me and Jake getting on badly otherwise. He very kindly spent ages fixing it. I realised I do like him a bit (well a lot more than I thought I did.

dear Very Torn, You are feeling threatened as he threatened you. He treated you in an abusive way both with actions and words. And how silly those words sound to the outsider. Nobody gets damages because they agreed to a vasectomy. Can you get some counseling and perhaps plan a strategy to be free of this man? I would still get that restraining order and let the police know he threatened to bruise himself.

Dear Laura Anne, Tell yourself the things your husband is doing are because of his insecurities and ignore it. One thing I don't understand is is your son an adult? Just now you have to do whatever is right for you. You are right about the escaping.

dear Perdita, I think you did the right thing. I guess the hardest bit is the loss of a companion and tht takes time to heal. If you have doubts, just come back and look at your post. Even so I hope your ex can find a way to face himself.

Dear Sharon,

The anger comes out but it does go away in the end. I would myself find it hard to do this, but taking the focus away from Dr Psycho and onto good things to think about/ do might be helpful as who knows what has happened to him. The less you can care, the less important he will seem. Glad you got rid of that other guy.

Dear Theressa, Good things do happen! You and your ex and you sound strong and a lot happier. It's just so nice to see things do sometimes work out so that a relationship gets some healing.

As for me,

Kitt found a boyfriend and I haven't seen her since. So my hair is o.k but half finished and I hope nobody notices!!! So hard letting go. But she is friendly and polite and I thin there is a lot of hope for us both.

I went to the solicitor today. It was really weird as when I made the appointment I was all poised to divorce. Then there was that prayer meeting....and I have been praying ever since that if I was meant to stick around I could feel something positive towards Jake.

Somehow in trying to talk me into divorce the solicitor managed to make me want to do the opposite. She really had got things right on what was happening but it kind of ended with me saying No thank you, I don't want to divorce him. feeling sure that this wasn't the way forward for us. Maybe it does have to do with the centering. (How ever you spell it). Perhaps I can like Jake as I don't feel the need for him to be any particular way for me any more.

Jay

Perhaps it is also about feeling strong and worthwhile as a person again.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

I like this response: "My instincts are telling me to feel "odd" about what is being presented here." You honored yourself, you honored your intuition, you referred to behavior rather than the person. Great response. I am going to borrow it!

Thanks, Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Perdida: Yes, let's be strong here. From your post, the phone behavior from this guy is the SAME as what I got from Dr. Psycho. You call, you want to reach out, and then they go nuts. And when you hang up, you feel worse. They are like animals on the phone. And the screaming! Where does that all come from? It sounds so frustrating, so mean, so demeaning. And when that would happen to me - I felt so hopeless, powerless and very depressed. More frustrated with the situation because you are dealing with someone who either 1) has something to hide 2) just does not care 3) is in a rage "just because". I don't have the answers - I just know how you feel. He probably is in contact and may be involved with another woman. That's why he answered it that way. And it could be why he asked you about when you were going to leave him. These people really don't have any control or self esteem - that's why they act like they do - you and I really are the ones who hold the control. However, it doesn't feel that way due to their abusive nature. They hate the way we make them feel. But this guy could very well be involved, or on the verge, with someone else, and he is trying to push you out of the picture. You have made him accountable for his poor behavior. And he hates it. Really really try hard to stay away. And encourage me to do the same. I did something stupid this afternoon. I emailed him at work (Dr. Psycho) - on the subject line I just wrote "hope you are doing OK" - that's all I wrote. That's all he gets. I know he won't respond as he is still punishing me. He hates how I make him feel. He feels vulnerable when I reach out to him - I also have made him accountable for his abuse - he doesn't like to be reminded. He wants a new victim to push around so he can forget about his past victims. Dr. Psycho wasn't home all weekend either, so I'm sure he has new victims. Either that or he went to LA to visit his parents. He has a new personal ad out in our local rag here so I know he is "going without." He's such a cad. I need to go to therapy tonight as I've been posting today feeling alot of anger. However, when I look at my calendar with 22 days crossed off of it, I feel pretty good. I guess I screwed up today with the email I sent him though. Oh well, at least it was not by phone. He'd scream at me too like your guy did to you. Let's fight this and be strong woman, OK? We deserve better!

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

I am at this very strange stage in my life that I don't think I have ever been at before...........I am happy, happy, happy, and it has nothing to do with anyone else!!!! I like me and I like knowing that I have all these options when I don't! (Like do something about it!) It is so "freeing". And I never, ever thought I would be at this stage. I love one of those expressions from the "Buddha" book about worrying about yourself, and not other people. Now when people do something that annoys me I wonder why it is, and what is saying about me as a person..........much better than bitching about other people. Anyway, I'm glad the ride has led to this self-discovery. It was worth it!

Deb

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear CatBox,

Thank you Jay for responding to my post, it feels like I'm being heard and feels comforting. Today I'm not bothered by what my husband's plans are and I think you are right about it being about his insecurities. Regardless, it's his reality, he has the right to live his own life anyway he chooses. I'm learning to accept that now. I didn't always (and still don't sometimes) because I really thought I knew how to change (fix) him! And that I should! As I read that, I'm laughing at myself!!!! It feels really good to be able to laugh at my own faults because I have such a tendency to beat myself up for anything I thought was a fault in me or mistakes I've made.

Yes, my son, here's the most hurtful part for me. Yes, he is an adult, although a very unsure one. How could he not be, living with my codependence all his life and with my husband's abuse since he was 7 years old? He's 19 now. It always hurts me whenever I think about why couldn't I have left when he was younger? So, as I have been learning recovery(12 step Al-Anon) and my behaviors are changing, I'm hoping that it has been helpful and healing for him.

Now that I am facing the abuse issue and talk with my son more openly about it, including my part in accepting it and not protecting him as well as I could have by leaving, I believe our leaving will be so healthy for each of us.

I realize that my son and I have formed an "us" against "him" alliance through the years. I can't say how healthy or unhealthy that was, just reality.

Since beginning recovery, when I was horrified when my sponsor told me I had to learn to let go of my son(!), I've slowly been learning to let go. I've always felt so protective of him, the best way I could anyway.

I am so proud of us now, though! I am ready to live my own life and my son said he wants to room with his friend (in the state we're moving to) shortly after we move. I believe this is a big growing step for both of us! Who knows? Maybe he'll start to be more sure of himself and thrive being his own person! Laura Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

Thanks for the post. It has often seemed like my ex-fiancée has wanted me to leave, but when I have left he wants me back. If you're mean to someone, it's logical that that person will go away, right? So if you want someone to go away, just be mean to them and they will, right? That's definitely how it looks to me.

I thought also that he might be involved with someone else because he has always been very secretive with regard to his continuing relationships with ex-girlfriends and ex-lovers, going out with them and "forgetting" to mention it until after the fact or until someone else told me, and getting mad when I tried to set boundaries so that the relationship would be respected. I guess this is the third or fourth time we have broken up over an other-woman-boundary issue, although I don't think he has actually been *sexually* unfaithful. I have never gotten agreement out of him about this, which is my fault. In the fateful call, he SAID he thought it was his ex-girlfriend. She does call and call from time to time. She has never gotten over him; she's like some Doppelganger who shadows him weeping. She has always represented a serious red flag for me although I tried to be understanding. One New Years (2000) she called and called, and things were getting tense between us because of it, and he finally asked if he could talk to her so she would stop calling, and I said a respectful limit on such a call while I was visiting would be 20 minutes, and after that I would leave. He didn't like that much, but as I had my keys out at 23 minutes, he came back from the call. But this poor girl has really broken down over my ex-fiance, and when he mixed me up with her, if that is indeed who he mixed me up with, it was a clear view of my fate with him if I stayed. Or he could have made it up and it is some other random woman he is involved with. But it's astonishing - three years, calling every day, doesn't recognize MY VOICE??!

Know what I think? I think he did have me somehow mixed up with his Doppelganger ex, and knew subconsciously that it was me on the phone, but his conscious mind hates me as much as he came to hate and hurt her. So I and this long suffering person whose mind and life he seems to have destroyed became one and the same person in that instant. Is that too science fiction?? ( Am I being a drama queen...?)

I've copied all my posts and the ones with advice to me into a document file to re-read. It really helps. I wish he was reading this site, and posting here, but I have a feeling he read one page and quit because he doesn't want to see himself. I'm using a fake name but he would know it was me by now if he were reading the Catbox.

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

I was moved by your going into the solicitor and allowing yourself to change your mind. That took strength to give yourself more time and resist the inertia of the appointment. You can always change your mind back again. Does Jake read any of this site or our posts?

Thanks for your support. I know I did the right thing too - it would have been the right thing this summer, and a year ago, and 18 months ago, and two years ago, and three years ago - that's how long and how many times I really knew what to do and didn't do it. The good side of my ex was really good, and the pull of the companionship was really strong. It will be awhile before I give up on his changing himself, but this time it will be at a distance, and I won't hesitate to enjoy companionship from other sources.

There are actually one fewer of us in the catbox than it looks - I started using a different name when I gave him the site and he said he was reading it. "Perdida" is Portuguese for "lost."

hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Perdida,

He doesn't be mean so you will leave. IT is a push and pull mind game. You see when you two get very close he feels threatened and needs to pull away. In a healthy relationship both members of the couple know that they are both individuals who become You, Me, and Us. So when the Us gets together to be intimate say in conversation or in the bedroom, or any way you connect the healthy US knows it is then okay to still be a YOU and Me. So we are intimate but we can both gently pull away and go back to being You and Me.

If like many of us here we have low self esteem we either get far too needy and close and don't know how to let someone be also a separate person = co-dependency, OR we could be someone also with a low self esteem who is afraid of getting too needy so if they feel too close they feel threatened and pull away = Counterdependency. THESE ARE BOTH PROTECTION COPING TECHNIQUES, NOT VERY GOOD ONES BUT THEY WORK IN A LIMITED WAY.

You see the counterdependent person like your partner, wants you but it is too painful for him when you get too close. When he starts to feel buttons get pushed inside him. In his childhood someone very close to him rejected him at sometime. Therefore, he learnt early on not to get too close cuz then you get rejected and it hurts badly.

You probably learnt the only way to get close was to give the whole of you up to please others. So you learnt if you want to get close you must smother others, treat them like kings and queens.

He wants the attention hence the EX girlfriend phoning and YOU caring cuz it builds up his self esteem falsely. He feels needed.

I only know this because it is where I was at 6 months ago. How I handled it was I build up my own self esteem so that I could see I did not deserve how he was treating me. I THEN LEFT, I had told him how he treated me was not right just before I left, but he was confused and so was I and we decided to QUIT. Unknown to me he tried many times to get me back, subtle ways, I was detached and didn't notice any of them.

He thought he'd lost me totally, he had unless he could show me he had the awareness he needed to change. I was NO LONGER GONNA put up with his BS. It helped when I realised I just couldn't do things just cuz I felt sorry for him. I couldn't continue to be a doormat. Anyway just recently he sent me a letter. By this time he'd met someone new but he didn't feel right with her. HE DIDN'T know I had. SO he put all his courage and for the first time ever shared all his feelings. (HE TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY HE THOUGHT HE HAD TO RISK BEING REJECTED BIG STEP FOR HIM SINCE HE'D TRIED SO HARD TO AVOID REJECTION AT ALL COSTS PREVIOUSLY. But he said it was worth it to him. To risk me laughing and saying GET LOST)

He admitted how wrong he had been, I told him what I would accept what was not okay. I gave it to him in a respectful, honest way. Without anger, he didn't get angry either, HE WAS ready to listen, he had this only chance of saving things. HE WAS BRAVE and took the chance of being rejected.

Other times I'd never properly left, I'd stay with friends, or family but never did I move out completely, this time was different. I was no longer gonna put up with his poor behaviour. HE heard people telling him that he was to blame for me leaving. He said "For the first time in his life he saw objectively how DREADFUL he'd been. He did a lot of crying (alone of course) and a lot of soul searching. HE DECIDED it was time for change.

SO now we are taking things slowly. I can see the changes already, he is very respectful now. He said to me we won't make love until your ready. I know I've hurt you badly. We have talked more in this week than we did in eight years. Another thing is my heart is open now, for years it was cold and angry. Now I can feel some love for him.

Early days YES, but there is no falseness this time around. In the past he'd butter me up and treat me like a queen ready to drop me when he felt low. Well he has been just natural this time. Yes he has made and effort and so I have I but we have talked and talked so much, and he seems to really have been listening.

I can now see his good points, I NEVER could before. I have been honest with him, I told him how much he scared me. He wasn't defensive.

We shared the contents of our minds and hearts, we've been honest, we've hid nothing.

I don't know if this is of any help to you but it might give you some hope.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi Theressa,

Thanks for your post. It did help a lot. I never thought of my ex-fiancée being mean because HE was afraid of closeness and I will chew on that for while - he was always the one who wanted to be joined at the hip - except he also wanted to beat me up while I was chained to his hip. I've known the types who are out-and-out a**holes so that you will actually GO AWAY, but my ex wanted me to stay 24/7 with him, daily long distance phone calls when we were apart, only to constantly do and say subtly negative things and go rabid when I told him how these things made me feel (i.e. BAD).

My visual metaphor for myself was a dog tied up in the yard, waiting to be petted, unable to run away to get a new good master, and never knowing whether I would be petted, ignored, or mistreated. Nice, huh?

At this point, I always have to remind myself what I liked about him so that I won't go overboard with the self-recriminations!

But now that you mention it, when we were planning to move in together, my ex was supposed to be looking for a place for just us and suddenly decided on a huge house that was too expensive and that he would have to get two roommates. That's ancient history, but it does look like fear to me now that you have pointed the pattern out - it makes a lot of sense.

Thanks again - Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

DR . IRENE, I AM A STUDENT WHO IS DOING RESEARCH ON VERBAL ABUSE AND I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME INFORMATION FROM YOU. I CHOSE TO BASE MY REPORT ON THIS BECAUSE MY AUNT HAS BEEN THROUGH THIS ABUSE AND I KNOW THAT I TOO. SO IF IT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO E-MAIL ME THAT WOULD BE GREAT. MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS:labebe23@hotmail.com. THANKS, VELMA REYES.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Sharon here. Yes, I experienced the same with Dr. Psycho. The push/pull game always happened whenever we would spend a fabulous, loving weekend together. By Monday or Tuesday, "it" was happening. By Monday morning I was feeling so good about things and then by Monday night, he'd say something to confuse those warm feelings I'd be feeling. Its like all of the gifts that were given were taken away. And it would be mean stuff. But then once we broke up, after a period of time (few weeks) if by chance we would run into each other, he would be different. He wants to get back together, "take things one day at a time" - "makes promises" "can't wait to get close". It is completely different behavior after he and I got some distance between us. It was inconsistent. I finally couldn't do it anymore as the "honeymoon phase" was getting smaller and smaller. We would be back together for only a week, and things would get bad again.

Yes, the other women stuff I experienced too. I think that's all part of the push/pull game. They don't want you to think that you should get high expectations up, so they have to bring in something else to block or use for distancing themselves. The bottom line: they are so afraid of being intimate. They'll do anything to block it!

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi all,

Don't know what exactly the purpose of this board is, but I just felt like trying it out. I've been reading a few of the posts about dating and just wanted you all to know that there ARE good men out there, as I experienced this weekend. I've been hanging around with a couple friend of mine who have a pool table in their basement, and there's always been this one guy there who is divorced (i.e. available). We've known each other for a couple years now, he's never asked me out, never hit on me, never made any kind of sexual remarks or anything, not even a "Hey, you look really nice today." But we've had some conversations, and he's always been "polite." Last Friday night, I went over to shoot pool, and he was there (I'll call him J.). We all got really drunk, one thing led to another, and pretty soon I'm making out with J. I know it was really fast for me to be doing this, especially since I'm in the process of divorcing still. But in a moment of weakness, I let myself go. I asked him to come over to my place. He did, and needless to say, we spent the whole weekend together being "intimate." But the thing about him is, he really is a gentleman. He would have never ASKED to come over to my place, or even to make out with me. It was my move. The sex was great, and he was very gentle. He treated me with the utmost respect. Even after the love-making, he just wanted to snuggle and hold me. I think we were both starved for affection. I noticed some things about him that indicated that he doesn't have an ounce of abusiveness in him: 1) He didn't just sit there and talk or brag about himself. In fact, he only talked about himself when I asked him questions, and then he was open and honest with me. 2) He was constantly concerned about MY needs, and how to please me. 3) Sex wasn't the be-all and end-all. He truly wanted to spend time holding me and just being with me. 4) HE DIDN'T CALL ME ON MONDAY! Which means, he's not clingy or controlling. I'm glad, because I need my space right now. If he was a sex hog, he would be over at my house every night, like my stbx, taking up every minute of my time. I really trust this guy, and I like the fact that we're not talking about any kind of SERIOUS relationship, just enjoying spending time together. Just thought I'd let you all know that there is hope out there. A few good men left.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi, Stimpy,

Jay here. Nice to see you in the catbox.

Perdida, Jake may or may not read the site. I have no idea. He denies it but every so often I think 'where did you get that from'. I may simply be some other source. I think talking to the solicitor was really good as I had it settled in my mind at last in a way I haven't before that there was some hope. I went to see the marriage guidance counselor today and as I talked I realised I almost didn't need the support as I was clear about things and how to cope with them anyway. Yippeee!

Wow, my head is really sorted on this how not to be codependent stuff. It sort of all fitted into place and while there must be a long way to go I know I am handling everything better now,

For the first time in a long time for a sustained time life feels really o.k despite the struggles.

jay  

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi all,

Wondering Lynn and Dan how you are if you ever pop in to the catbox these days?

This is sort of a vent, and I don't know altogether if I have it right but I think I have. can I do it by a reported conversation in my own head?

He has used the phrase 'other people.' He want to talk to "other people." He says he has a right to talk to "other people". But the thing he wants to talk about is my financial affairs. he will help as long as he can talk to "other people"

I don't have a problem if he talks to "other people" if it is about his own affairs.

There are some "other people" I don't want involved in my affairs. He will only help out if he can talk to "other people" and not name them.

He will not reassure me that the people I object to are not the "other people" that he will talk to.

I do not like this "other people" business.

Do I use it too? Yes have done. Just because I name them doesn't make all this "other people" business o.k.

I only get help if I give in to this "other people" business. I think that I woill lose my self respect if I accept any help while we have these Unnamed "other people" involved.

Ergo. I can't ask for help.....He is forever creating a catch 22 situation.

He won't listen to my reasons for feeling this way.

Maybe I can manage. How am I not helping myself?

For a start there is undone paperwork. Things to put in envelopes and send that may help. he does have a valid point about all this.

I don't HAVE to use the car. It may even be the car gets through the MOT anyway. I am assuming it won't.

I need to put this stuff on hold. See what I can do and not act helpless.

I may have to give in. Maybe in the meantime I can address 'other people' with him without an issue involved. Maybe we can discuss it without a need of mine in the way.

Is it abusive to use the phrase "other people?"

Yes. I think it is. I feel abused by the situation.

Was that what he meant to do?

No, I don't think he has a clue.

He does leave me the space to make mistakes. He doesn't control or seek to control who I talk to or how I manage this area of my life usually.

But you use it too so you are the pot calling the kettle black and you know it is abusive. Yes but....oh dear, there aren't any buts..

What is best for you?

I think I prefer to keep myself respect. I think I need to know that I have sorted things for myself first. The root isn't even about the abuse. I handled things o,k, I kept relatively calm and I stated my case...fell apart a bit at the end but I got myself back together.

What are you angry for then.

I think I am cross with myself.. for procrastinating. Nothing would be like this if I had acted sooner. Just really a hatred of paperwork...just laziness.

So how do you feel about "other people" now?

The same. But if I have to go down the route of asking him to help I think that I am responsible as I shouldn't get myself into these muddles.

The muddle leads to him taking my power. Gives him power in this situation to abuse.

Are you going to stand up for yourself? Are you going to accept in this case you may allow abuse if you give in?

This could be creative. If you say no and appear unphased now he may respect you more..you have seen that before in other areas.

The challenge then is to choose not to have the power struggle or fight. If you are doing all you can to avoid giving in if you have to then you can make the choice that at that point in time that is the only solution. Then next time that particular fight comes you can try again.

This is probably a load of waffle and I feel comfortable with my own solution. I need to get on now and take some action! i guess I shouldn't need feedback. Shouldn't need anyone to validate my thoughts but if anyone wants to comment I would like to hear!

Jay - who is actually really pleased she got through this without getting into a fight.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi Perdida,

Theressa here:

Your partner sounds like he is insecure, he craves your loving hence his possessiveness but then runs scared so he acts nasty to let push you back a bit.

Why he does this is: maybe he had to work hard to gain someone's attention when he was a child, so he made them feel great but then they disappointed him cuz they didn't give him enough for how hard he worked. He thus, would feel not good enough. IT is like me I would give and give and give, but then I would resent my partner cuz he didn't give back enough to make me feel I was okay and loveable, he couldn't possibly cuz WHAT was really missing was my SELF LOVE, so it wouldn't matter what he did or didn't do, it wasn't about him. THIS is the same with your husband it isn't about YOU, its about how he feels deep inside.

All you can do is self love, yourself enough to not tolerate his abuse. Set limits! And learn to see that you really are loveable and deserve much better, YOU see the universe creates what you focus on.

When I began to feel good about me then I was able to accept his love. And vice versa.

The funny thing was as I worked on me in therapy and grew stronger I stopped accepting his abuse . YOU see I always felt I should care for him, since he had been so hurt in the past. THIS was wrong to do, I needed to let him know that xxx was wrong and I wouldn't accept it, instead of in the past making excuses for him.

YES he had suffered and YES I could understand this, but if he was ever gonna heal I had to let him feel it wasn't okay to treat me badly, this way he became conscious and started to feel again, the cause and effect. YOU see I'd taken the effect for him by allowing the abuse so he was never gonna learn.

THE kindest thing I ever did was SAY NO I won't accept that poor treatment. It got us to where we are at now.

YOU can do this also

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi All,

RE: Ebbs and flows

Asha how do you cope with the ebbs and flows. When things aren't so wonderful? People keep telling me to watch the ebbs and learn to come back up again.

Any ideas, perhaps Dr Irene can give her input?

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Well......I did backslide. I called Dr. Psycho giggle! last night and we talked for 3 hours. It was incredible. My therapy and book reading helped me pull out of his crusty behavior toward me. He got into his blaming/accusing cycle and I was able to throw back his tactic by basically not getting roped into taking it. He demanded an apology, demanded honesty, but would not give me the same. I, however, told him that it was not necessary that he apologize because I 1) would not beg him for it 2) told him that I realized that he could never take responsibility for his actions, anyways because its all about "power & control with him." Whenever he would say he "didn't trust me" I don't him that he never could trust me but that it was because of him, his persona, his baggage so to speak. I said "you will never trust me - so it doesn't matter that you call me a liar - I know that I was honest and faithful - but that is your trust issues - not mine". I put everything back on him without blaming/accusing. But it was funny how he regressed back into old dialogue with me because I was able to turn the situations around without being defensive or backing down. He wanted me to acknowledge that I screwed up because the only proof that I had was the "newspaper" on his front porch showed that he slept over someone else's house. I did take responsibility for that, and told him that I figured that he did not sleep with someone else. I gave him power when needed. But I took my power when needed, even though he tried to siphon it. I think I have my closure with this man. I really needed to talk things out since we shared so much together. But he validated to me yet again what an asshole he really is. Therapy really has helped me tremendously - and I told him that I was glad we didn't go to couples counseling because it would not have worked, due to the fact that he would never consider my points of view because again, it was all about power and control. He still misses me - he wanted me to say that I missed him too - I kinda did but then I told him that "if I came over and seduced you, you would still find a reason to end the relationship in 2 weeks, so I'm not going to go out on a limb again and make myself vulnerable." This man will never be happy in a relationship as long as he can't see his part in anything he does. During the three hours, I can see that he was breaking down his anger - but then he would say the threats again like "you know with you harassing me by driving by, phone hang ups, etc. I can do this and this to you...." and I would respond with the fact that I have not called and hung up (which I haven't) and that when we were together at his house his phone would ring and hang up in his ear so it had to be someone else, that he lived his life constantly with high drama and in the victim mode and that he hires 2-3 attorneys whenever somebody crosses him - he is always "crying wolf" (look what he/she has done to me, whine, whine) and that I have taken his threats seriously and that I have taken protective steps to preserve my interest." I reminded him that I live right around the corner and it is my right to drive by since it is a major artery road. He backed down. I told him that he has done similar things to all people that see him for who he really is and make him accountable for his poor behavior and has collided with just about every human that has gotten close to him. He has trouble staying and keeping relationships with everybody. Men and women. Again, its about power and control. I think this man has learned a lot from me in the last 18 months about himself. I know I have.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Theressa

I'm still learning myself. It takes a long time though and even when things seem lots better, old stuff can come up.

It seems that the best thing that I can do (that I have figured out) is to focus on the things in life that are important to *me*. To look at my goals and keeping moving towards them, regardless of what is going on in the external world. So even if everything around me crumbles I'm still headed in a positive direction. This doesn't mean becoming self-absorbed; it means not being externally-absorbed, so that my choices come from within and not from the "outside". So far what comes to mind as the 2 keys, in my mind, are awareness and motivation by Self (love), not by Ego (the outside world, fear). This is what I've concluded so far, but it's an ever-evolving learning experience.

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001

S1

Hey All.. Confused is back, only confused is just plain exasperated now! Hubby kept his appointment, but I think the counselor just gave him fuel for the fire! He tells me his counselor suggested that maybe he was just a detail person and that I was a non detail person....EXCUSE ME???? Example...Hubby, "Where have you been?" Me, "I told you I was going to the grocery." Hubby, "and it took you that long to go? I want to know what you've been doing and where all you went. I'll check your odometer on the car too." Come on!!! If this is what counseling is going to do for him, I want no part of it!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001

S1

Hi All,

NEWCOMERS to the cat box this might help you:

It is a reply from Dr Irene she sent to me.

My Question:

What puzzles me: isn't watching how you speak to another person the same as controlling the situation?

Reply: It depends what you do with it, But, you're asking different questions.

In intimate relationships, if you try to give the other person what you think they want, you are being controlling or manipulative because you compromise yourself and others by not speaking your truth plainly and respectfully.

If you watch how you speak in the sense of controlling yourself so that you don't say anything that demeans the other person or yourself, you are taking care of yourself because behaving in a respectful way feels good to most people; they feel good about themselves.

Next question:

I sometimes get so confused because if holding in your anger is healthy, then why was it so wrong for years? I'll explain if you are angry at xxxx and you leave the room to cool down, you never get anything resolved, aren't you controlling the outcome?

Reply:

Anger management: You hold your anger until you cool down. Then you think about what happened and what about the situation is bothering. Then you figure out how to say what you have to say. Then you talk about it respectfully.

MAYBE this might help some of you new people.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Jay,

I see what you mean about going off antidepressants. I finally got the money to get my prescription refilled this morning (Thank God!). The light-headedness was getting worse, and I was having some serious ringing in my ears. This morning, I noticed that every sound was amplified in my head--there was something like an echo. The emotional stuff wasn't too bad, I did get depressed on Wednesday, but have been okay since then. I just took my full dose about an hour ago, and haven't noticed much of a change yet, but I'm glad you guys talked me into getting the prescription refilled.

Did you have any side effects from going back on once you went off them?

Stimpy

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Dear Stimpy, I didn't ever go back on them I did the cold turkey bit and I don't recommend it. By the time I came to my senses the doc thought I might just as well get to the end of the withdrawal. She did prescribe the homeopathic stuff which helped. I did get the ringing in the ears and the light headedness but even worse were the feelings and muddled upness. I didn't know how else to describe it. Possibly the only reason that the doc recommended this course of action for me although she was pretty firm about it NOT being the sensible way to do things was that she suspected the seroxat was really having a very bad effect at times.

Today I got the results of the blood tests and she wants me to see a specialist. Seems I have very low progesterone...Seems I need iron. The same doc wouldn't prescribe conventional meds and has instead written me a prescription for a cream made from wild yams...She said she didn't want the conventional things making me depressed as that might be one of the side effects. Then she told me she and the specialist are at odds over the cream.....but her female patients say it works. So now I have to see a specialist who disagrees with my doctor...hmmm. I guess not many trained docs are into alternative remedies.

Dear Confused. I think that it takes time for therapists to get the measure of what is going on. Mine seemed to miss the point a lot for about 5 weeks and then she seems to have cottoned on. This morning for the first time she actually initiated some possible progress.

So the bit, asking you all for some help here, that I need to work on according to the therapist is believing that Jake might actually make an effort at changing. She picked up on the pessimistic script of "it is never going to happen he won't do it". How do I get more positive? It is like the script is a protection against feeling disappointed and frustrated and already Jake is in the doghouse...He said, It is good you have to see a specialist...I reacted ..How dare he like that I have to see a specialist....got very upset...so I fell into it hook line and sinker....at which point Jake explained that he didn't mean he was glad he meant if there was something wrong then it was good I could see a specialist ....but really I WOULD LIKE HIM TO SHOW CONCERN which I know he won't.

As you said once before Dr Irene, don't try to get blood out of a stone...but I have to admit I want to just now.

On a later note, now I know why the banana addiction. He is not abusing me or compulsive. bananas have the same feel good stuff in as chocolate. I am married to a bannanaholic. given the amount of chocolate I eat..........I guess he has the healthier addiction ..so now I am asking myself why if I have chocolate every day I am so annoyed by his bananas. You will have to scroll back and see where I wrote about this if you haven't a clue what I am on about.

Sometimes you have to reassess and rewrite the script.

Dear Sharon, I really hope you have got closure with Dr Psycho and can keep the door closed. Look after You..

Hi Asha, Theressa and everyone else. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. It was a hard week for me. I broke down and called Dr. Psycho Tuesday night and we spoke for 3 hours. It was a trying time for me in some ways; liberating in others. I went to counseling Wed. and again, it was reaffirmed to me that our problems were due to his wanting power and control. That is why Dr. Psycho refuses to apologize, take responsibility for his actions and all of his threats towards me to "do me in." He is angry about the fact that I showed my anger towards him - now I'm the "animal" the one with the "black heart" so he says. This is really, really hard. I see his personal ad in our newspaper and I want to know if he is already out there dating someone else. However, I know he'll eventually treat her with contempt too. He is incapable of loving any woman. In our phone call, he was trying to get me to seduce him - he really wanted me to come over (we live 2 minutes away from each other); however I didn't even consider trying. I know the routine. I knew the outcome. We'd break up in 2 weeks going through this "crap" again. One thing I do know although he hasn't told me this - he is not going to work - at least from what I can see. (remember he works across the way - its been at least 2 weeks) He either won his lawsuit, or is on some kind of disability. Something is going on. I hope its making him insecure in life right now. This man is really good at making you the villain and he the victim; yet he is the abuser. He is such a flake!! No wonder he has to have his space; he has NEVER let anyone close. 18 months ago when we first met, he was soooo charming, he sweeped me off his feet. Then the weird verbal stuff came out and it was, for me, "WHAT??" But I was hooked in and he knew it. Its funny but even now he still wants sex!! That's laughable to me!! I'd never give it up again unless he went to therapy for at least 6 months alone and really cleaned up his act!! I told him that in an email that the only way he'd ever have me again is if I got the love, trust and respect I deserve. Well, guess what.......it fell on deaf ears. Again! Doesn't surprise me because its all about power and control for him. Wish me luck this weekend that I don't see him in the store, however I have lost 4 lbs. !!! (smile)

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon, All the while you are in contact with Dr Psycho you will be giving him your power. The message you will be sending is I am still interested even if you abuse me. I don't think you are going to help yourself or him. Sorry I hope that doesn't sound harsh it is just what I thought as I read your post. Like you are still allowing the pattern you want to escape from to repeat. REMINDER you had to call the police on this man. Any contact at all is not a good idea. Remember the supermarket vision. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Dear Jay: I know!!!!!! Why did I weaken? Why did I backslide? I was doing so well there. I did "undo" all of the work I had done this past month. Thank you for the reminders; I need to keep hearing it. And I don't have the guts to tell my girlfriends this stuff because they know how awful he was too. It is more of the same from him. He looks out his window all day and night sitting at his computer. I now take an alternate route to go to the store, and I can see from the distant street that his light is on, so I know he could see me drive directly in front of his house, if I didn't take the alternate route. So, that aspect has taken away his power, because it doesn't feed in to his ego. And I know what he is doing - he has NOTHING going on and so him sitting by his window watching me drive by is alluding to him "see, she still loves me." So, at least I know that now ------- but WHY, WHY, WHY. I have to not be hard on myself about this, but I am. Believe me, I've had one hell of a week. I just have to tell myself that next week will be BETTER. Fortunately, we have the next 3 days off from work....I can have more time for myself to heal without stress from work. I'm going to have to be good to myself and not beat myself up as bad as I have been. Know what I mean? Take care of your situation too. I wish we had either other's email address so we can write. I'm at sdorsey@calstrs.ca.gov if you ever want to reach me Jay!

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Hi Sharon, I will email you. I don't put my address directly on the board for various reasons. I'm glad you won't be too hard on yourself which is what i have been doing to me all day! Not allowing for disrupted hormones and tiredness. I get to be a raving insomniac about once a month. Jake has just gone to get a prescription for some pills and hey DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID he said log onto this site as I might feel better then. He wasn't being horrid, just concerned. I have to give him credit I think he is trying. I wouldn't exactly give him an A but there is hope I hope! jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Well, I took myself off for almost a week to a retreat where I had no phone and no internet, so I had no trouble NOT calling or emailing my ex! Actually, I don't have any desire to... but why do I feel *slightly* disappointed that I haven't received any pleading messages? (ego) Part of me feels glad I don't have to deal with any choices - i.e. to respond or not.

Sharon, can you take YOUR self off to some retreat for those days off, or even the whole week? Just remove yourself physically, even temporarily, from the situation. You sound like you are losing it, and you will feel worse. You had your last look back, and yep, that was an asshole, all right. Re-read your posts twice a day and when you're feeling weak! But I sure am not being critical having been THERE and done THAT. Sometimes I just wallow in how much it all hurt, and then I get strong again. I'm now going through that part of the pattern where I wonder if I was the "bad" person who screwed everything up. Maybe I really WAS a picky, neurotic bitch. Time to wallow, wallow. Awful, ain't it? Flipping between "why did I stay so long" and "maybe it really was my fault"!! Yikes! No wonder people became nuns after losses in love.

Jay, great vent and congrats on not having a fight. Why does Jake need to talk about YOUR stuff? Is he your business manager? If so, did you consider hiring an "outsider" for the sake of the marriage? If not, what the hell? I got the "talking over things with other people" thing, too, but it was about the relationship so, yeah, the guy has to talk to his brother or whatever. But business matters - that's something else. Keep it strictly business!

Theressa, you are so right on about my ex craving attention from someone in childhood - he grew up with a bipolar older brother, and the family was and still is always totally focused on the older brother. My ex was the "perfect" one. He has told me practically nothing about his childhood, but I can see things very plainly. The mom runs the show, the dad never comes home from work, the brother is alternately extremely gregarious, taking over the room, or lies on the couch for days, and the little sister is seriously overweight and shut down. My ex simply blends into the wall when he is with his family. So it's true, it's not "possible" for him to need therapy, because that's for truly "ill" people like his brother. HE is perfect, and his mother told me so in our first meeting. So you are soooooo right on, Theressa. But I can be understanding until my brain is blue, and if he keeps being abusive, all the understanding in the world won't help. You know who my ex is? He is Bluebeard, or if you have seen the movie The Piano, he is the husband. It's ironic that he nastily told me I "needed help" early in our relationship (as he was being abusive and I just couldn't tell what was happening - surely acting out seriously myself) because I went and got therapy, and I got better. Like you, I stopped putting up with things. But each time I called attention to something, I also called attention to the fact that he isn't perfect.

Well, I am glad to be back and glad to read everyone's stuff. I hope everyone is having a happy Sunday. Sharon? Get AWAY from that guy!

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear All,

I thought yesterday was an awful day and then realised how much Jake had tried (o/k on this occasion put up with!). Today we managed out forst walk without an argument in months and HOORAY! He seems to have understood the bit about HumanKatkid needing his parents to agree...I stood firm about the other people business and he did explain who the other people was...!!!!!!????? This other person has a split personality?????????? He really did try all day to correct his mistakes. Yes he was abusive, then he seemed to realise it and try again! Which is pretty good of him as he was getting the wrong side of MY tongue.

But at last I knew what I wanted. I knew where I stood. Today FEELS different. GOSH is it noisy here! HumanKatkid and friend have a drum and electric guitars and are raising the roof. Plus CD's....... Today everyone feels cooperative and the conversation is conversation about things...not arguments. heavens he even asked me about my writer's group....(usually what I do is of no interest).

And after all there is a CODA group already set up and running near to my house. They just hadn't advertised!

Perdita, I had to let him help as I got in such a muddle, but it is o.k as I have been able to say how I feel to the not o.k other person and so he knows that I don't want him involved. It was sort of half a victory if that is the right word.

Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Perdita, Jay and everyone : You made mention that you in between the places of "why did I stay so long" and "was it me??", that's exactly where I'm at too? Its no fun, is it?

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Sometimes I look at my posts and wonder where my spelling went!

Dear person who says it's no fun is it. I am not really sure what you mean but I will guess. I think there is a process you go through which is why we stay in something for as long as we do. It takes time to see what is wrong and lots of things have to happen inside until you are emotionally ready to face things. The there is the process of sifting out what you have to take responsibility for and what your partner should own. It is sometimes much harder to own your own mis behaaviours and it is also painful to face pain.

It is painful to realise how abused you are or to see how abusive your partner is. Nobody wants that: so the truth is painful. Then it takes time and effort to work on yourself.

However the other side of that is the relief and the centering. The feeling of being strong enough to cope. progress does happen and it makes you stronger.

Fun is something you can have at a funfair, personal growth isn't. But funfairs move on. What you gain inside of you at a price sticks. And that is the valuable stuff. The diamonds as opposed to cheap jewelry.

Sorry! I am getting philosophical or something! Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Dr Irene -

I just stumbled onto your site and was hoping you may be able to offer some advice. This is not about me, but I am looking for help so as to help my sister. My sister is in an emotionally abusive relationship. She has been married for 8 years now. Her husband has done everything from calling her stupid to alienating most of her friends. He hates our entire family and says horrible things about us, however, never to our face. My sister left him 2 years ago, and went to my parents with her kids (she has 2, one is 4, the other 7). She only stayed over night one night, and the next day he called her telling her to come home or he was moving out of state. When she went back, he had torn down the doors going to the bedroom and bathroom as well as broken various furniture. He told her he would not make the repairs in the house, as it was her fault he did what he did. Now, 2 years later, she decided to leave again. However, this time, she had divorce papers delivered to him. She asked me to come to see the attorney with her, so of course I did. At this point, she felt as though she couldn't spend another day with the man. The same evening, she was telling me how she just wanted to call him and tell him she loved him. This all took place on a Friday. We (my family and friends) have some how convinced her to stay at my parents for 2 nights now. However, tomorrow, Monday, she is planning to go back to him. She has visited her counselor within these past 2 days, and her counselor also advised she not go home.

My sister has done, over the course of their marriage, everything I can see possible to try to help her marriage work. She has been to see various counselors with and without him, she has tried to work on herself and build her own esteem, and we as her family have done everything we can think of.

My question to you: At this point in the game, as I previously stated, all she seems to want to do is to go running back to him once again. I am having a very difficult time continuing to be supportive of her and not get angry. As her sister, what can I do to continue to support her and encourage her to live a healthy, positive life?

Frustrated Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Sis,

I'm not Dr Irene who I am sure will give you much better advice than me but while I was talking to a friend earlier your post did cross my mind. You see, this friend was in an abusive relationship and there was a point that all her friends got pretty angry with her as she had it all set up to leave and then she stayed.

We were all pretty angry at her decision. But that its the root of it it was her decision to make and not ours. It took her another couple of years to leave and this time she was ready and it all worked out. In fact I know her husband as he and I share a hobby and go to the same group. He is a different person and clearly has beneffitted from the split. My friend says that there came a right time for her to leave, She had to do it in her own timescale.

You can't make your sister do anything that she is not ready to do otherwise you will be controlling her. Hard though it is I think you are going to have to let go and let her make her own choices: even the wrong one and be there to pick up the pieces when and if it doesn't work out again.

I suspect it is the very understandable over responsible bit of codependency that is at work in you. And I think that that is very understandable and it is just so great your sister has people around her to support and share. Just you can't make her choices for her and hard though it is we have to respect the choices our loved ones make even when we think we know they are the wrong ones. Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Sis,

I'm not Dr Irene who I am sure will give you much better advice than me but while I was talking to a friend earlier your post did cross my mind. You see, this friend was in an abusive relationship and there was a point that all her friends got pretty angry with her as she had it all set up to leave and then she stayed.

We were all pretty angry at her decision. But that its the root of it it was her decision to make and not ours. It took her another couple of years to leave and this time she was ready and it all worked out. In fact I know her husband as he and I share a hobby and go to the same group. He is a different person and clearly has beneffitted from the split. My friend says that there came a right time for her to leave, She had to do it in her own timescale.

You can't make your sister do anything that she is not ready to do otherwise you will be controlling her. Hard though it is I think you are going to have to let go and let her make her own choices: even the wrong one and be there to pick up the pieces when and if it doesn't work out again.

I suspect it is the very understandable over responsible bit of codependency that is at work in you. And I think that that is very understandable and it is just so great your sister has people around her to support and share. Just you can't make her choices for her and hard though it is we have to respect the choices our loved ones make even when we think we know they are the wrong ones. Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear All, Sharon here. Well, its Monday and a holiday but I wanted to come in to work and post. Jay, its been GREAT hearing from you. I've been reading your posts and now have a better idea of what you are going through.

Been wanting to share with you where I am.

There is a shift of feelings for me with Dr. Psycho. The only word I can think of is "satiated." I think I am at a point of saturation about the thinking (more like ruminating) of the ending to this relationship. It was NOT healthy for me, but my thinking about it was more like "I was abused, why did I allow that to happen to MYSELF!!!!. Those were alot of my thoughts, along with intense anger, sadness, sorrow and some depression. (the depression part hasn't felt that intense and I look back, I WAS MORE DEPRESSED WITH HIM!!!!!) I am not saying I am "out of the woods", I think there has been just alittle shift in how I feel for right now. Alittle more "centered" more "smug" alot less anxious, I even sat and rented a movie last night at home *alone* without missing him. Honestly!! So, I feel just alittle better these last few days - for whatever reason. Looking back, I was used for *sex* only. I could never go back to the abuse. I could never go back to the uncertainty of knowing whether or not he is going to abuse me today or tomorrow either. Talking with him on the phone helped that day because I realized that he is who he is and he can't change he is unwilling to change. And besides, I felt empowered that he still was effected by MY CHANGING my behavior. He could see that I was secure in my belief system and he couldn't "sway me" into his way of thinking. My verbal skills have really improved with him!! Though I will NEVER GO BACK!! He will go on to next woman and abuse her. That is sad.

These last few days, I don't even get the emotional charge of "wondering" who's at his house or what he's been doing. I live right by him so its hard not to look over at his house "wondering", but I NEVER see anyone over there. But the intensifed feelings of looking at his house are gone. Around 8:30 last night, I got a phone hang up....so, of course, I wondered if it was him......but I didn't call him back to see if it was him. (in our past whenever we broke up it would be him trying to make a connection going - I would do a *69 and get him back on the phone) NOT LAST NIGHT!! So, for me, that was MAJOR PROGRESS!!!!!! So, little by little, I am feeling emotionally letting go of the entire "idea" of giving "it" another shot this time. Because, trust me, Dr. Psycho and I have been down this road many, many times. This time is different because I found this website, therapy and books. AND ALL OF YOU!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Yay, Sharon!! Great message! Keep it up!

From your been-there, done-that reactive empathizer,

Perdida

(p.s. to your ego: of course it's him hanging up on you and isn't it satisfying to NOT be playing the same game...)

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Perdida:

Yes!!!!! The phone hang ups from him means everything!!!!!! Its such validation ---- and its empowering ------- it does wonders for my self-esteem ------ (ya know, its the little stuff that counts these days!!) I called everyone I knew to see if by chance it may have been someone else, but it wasn't my mom, kids, girlfriends, etc. It had to have been Dr. Psycho. AND, I have been getting the same here at WORK. Which I suspected it was him.

Distancing myself has worked. Calling him last week and saying what I had to say gave him some things to "think about." It was empowering for me to say once again "I deserve love, trust and respect" in a relationship. And if you can't deliver - I walk.

Dr. Psycho will NEVER have me again under his thumb. I have changed. I love the fact that he feels my shift.

Sounds like you've been there, Perdida, so you know actually where I'm at. Its a good feeling! Thanks for the response and the support!!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Jay -

Thanks for the info. I know I just have to stand by and let her do things at her own pace. And I will be there no matter what happens.

By the way, she went home to him today..."hoping he will give her another chance"....Someday she will understand and see things as the rest of the people that love her do. I hope.

Thanks, Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Continuation of the other people vent:

I feel so very mad! "Other people" did not exist and were not evn his dad. He told me this morning that he doesn't know who he would talk to yet!| So why say "other people" and let me get upset when if he had said he wasn't sure who to talk to it would have been o.k in the first place. I think I am living in wonderland. O.K so calm down.

This is not o.k. He is nt o.k (not on this one anyway).

At least he has said who other people aren't yet!

It is all aabout this phrase "other people". It always turns out to be nothing.

Mind games stuff. Let him play"don't let him know you are upset. It is a game and I don't need to join in. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Hey Jay,

I agree with you on the "other people" thing. It's involving other people to get on the abuser's side in problems between the two people, and cutting off the abusee from "other people" at the same time. Aren't those two symptoms on the "are you abused" checklist?

I was thinking about your story, and thoroughly identifying with it as usual... For me, maybe it goes without saying that we all talk things over with people we trust who are outside of the relationship. The difference is that Jake, and my ex, ANNOUNCED that they were going to do so, making us crazy. There's no need to make the announcement; that's where the abuse lies.

And on top of the big parade about talking to other people, Jake's other people are mythical! Gee whiz!

Keep venting!

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Dear all, I feel like B. so much new people and new stories: it is hard to keep up. Adn the same stories over and over, the same questions all of us ask at some stage the fall backs the trials and errors. But also the successes. Hope we will get were we wqant to get. All of us.

Dear Jay,

I love your ‘other people' madness. Ik think this is not just Jay, I think a lot of en do this. C. says things like I talked to friends, or other people without mentioning who they are and is surprised when I care. My sister's husband does the same thing. Maybe it is not about abuse, but about them really not caring all that much about things like that. Don't know. But I think you were right to ask. He answered he doesn't know yet and you have been worryoing about it for a week!!! Just imagine! It shows again that asking is better then worrying.

C. and me had a major confrontation about money and I am not sure yet wetehr it was ok or not. I told him about how I felt he never contributed and he was very upset and v=feeling very bad. Afterwards I felt like the big bad wolf and had to think about Theressa saying how bad she felt about her ex telling her she did not contribute enough and how mean that was.

So I am still at a loss wetehr I did the right thing to fainally talk about something that has been bothering me for years, or wether I was beeing abusive. I did not mean to hurt or accuse, and I know I contributed by not saying anything before. But he felt so upset, is so out of sorts, that I feel realy bad. At the same time I feel this kind of victory feeling, like I finally came true with my feelings. Or is it the victory of seeing him down again, jsut when he was feeling better.

Any idea's out there?? I don't know wether to apoligize (but I did speak the truth), or let him finally face the truth.

Some hours after writing this, I talked to him and feel very bad. He is going to Africa for a month the day after tomorrow and has asked someone else to get him to the Airport. Thjis feels like he is punisching me though he denies it. Says he wante to come over this evening or maybe I could coke and we could have diner together. But he says he wanted to do this trip alone. Feeling very confused. I can understand this, but feel very let down. Especially since he just told me today and I asked to confirm when we would leave as I thougt it was decided on. I cried and he said I could bring him, if I wanted, which felt even worse: little girl is unhappy, let's give her a cookie. Boehoe. I don't think I want to bring him anymore. But I don't feel good about it.

Love and salmon (Trubble you must be hungry without Mummy Lynn to bring you fish all the time. Hope you are all right).

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Dear AJ, Hugs. I think it all comes down to communication and motivation. Anyone can say anything with intent to hurt and that is abusive. denying someone is hurt when they tell you so and that is abusive. Not being aware that what you do is hurting could be abusive but it caould also be unintentional and therefore not meant to be abusive. I honestly think a lot of the time Jake has no clue that what he does is not o,k. What I feel abused by is his denial when whatever my feelings are he denies them.

I don't know if any of that makes sense as I am suffering from the effects of a night of total sleeplessness (3 sleping pills and I still can't fall asleep???????Probably only as it was a chnge from the usual sort.)

I think you were right to tell C how you felt. You are only human and if you did feel a twinge of the wrong kind of power at least you acknowledge it. It would have been abusive if you had weilded the power by telling him. I think I would let it go now you;ve said your piece and concentrate on the here and now.

He ahs said he wants to see you. He wants to eat with you. Maybe he really did just need some space with the Africa thing.

I can sort of understand that as I am a kind of lone traveller myself. Like nothing more then to get up and go off alone to a new place. I just don't need the hassle of anyone saying goodbye.

The thing is he is going to go anyway whoever takes him to the airport and he is going to be away long enough to stop being upset. He does seem from what you say to have things out of proportion. ALL you have said is you wish he contributed more, that is no crime. If he is upset he hasn't then maybe he has a conscience about it??

Anyway, keep it all in perspective. He goofed over money and he has to go to Africa. There must be other stuff you see in him that is o.k and maybe it is best now to concentrate on that????

Hope I make sense, Brain not in gear,,,,, definitely not. Love,, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Dear AJ, Hugs. I think it all comes down to communication and motivation. Anyone can say anything with intent to hurt and that is abusive. denying someone is hurt when they tell you so and that is abusive. Not being aware that what you do is hurting could be abusive but it caould also be unintentional and therefore not meant to be abusive. I honestly think a lot of the time Jake has no clue that what he does is not o,k. What I feel abused by is his denial when whatever my feelings are he denies them.

I don't know if any of that makes sense as I am suffering from the effects of a night of total sleeplessness (3 sleping pills and I still can't fall asleep???????Probably only as it was a chnge from the usual sort.)

I think you were right to tell C how you felt. You are only human and if you did feel a twinge of the wrong kind of power at least you acknowledge it. It would have been abusive if you had weilded the power by telling him. I think I would let it go now you;ve said your piece and concentrate on the here and now.

He ahs said he wants to see you. He wants to eat with you. Maybe he really did just need some space with the Africa thing.

I can sort of understand that as I am a kind of lone traveller myself. Like nothing more then to get up and go off alone to a new place. I just don't need the hassle of anyone saying goodbye.

The thing is he is going to go anyway whoever takes him to the airport and he is going to be away long enough to stop being upset. He does seem from what you say to have things out of proportion. ALL you have said is you wish he contributed more, that is no crime. If he is upset he hasn't then maybe he has a conscience about it??

Anyway, keep it all in perspective. He goofed over money and he has to go to Africa. There must be other stuff you see in him that is o.k and maybe it is best now to concentrate on that????

Hope I make sense, Brain not in gear,,,,, definitely not. Love,, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Well, no real big news on the homefront or workfront, other than the fact that I got a phone hang up just now here at work. (11:35am) mmmmm. Dr. Psycho perhaps? Remember too that I got a phone hang up on Sun. night at home at 8:30pm.....Well, Perdida, I know you know what that does!! Is this the way these men reach out? Do they not know how to be in a real relationship? I know better than to call and see if it was him. That's part of the abuse. They want to be in combat. I say nothing. I do nothing. I feel that he's always into the win/lose approach when it came to "us". Again, this is my new stance: no participation.

I have 2 new coffee dates this week. Hopefully, I'll meet somebody decent through my personal ads. I am really very glad with myself in that I have to stay focused and I know I need to not make any goals in trying to make a go again with Dr. Psycho, my focus is on myself. I've been sleeping alot better too!! Boy, that does make a difference, doesn't it? Sleep is everything in my book!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

S1

HI Cats,

Not sleeping is the worst, Jay, yuck, my sympathies! Have fun on your coffee dates, Sharon, and laugh a lot! Nothing serious! (No kinky sex!!) AJ, it must be hard to tell someone they're not contributing enough. My ex liked to snarl that I made twice as much as he does (big deal, grad student stipends) but since I didn't know what that was supposed to mean - pay for him, too? I don't think so! - I never paid much attention. We had a deal, 50/50, which seemed to work most of the time, but the times that it didn't were kind of ugly. He didn't always keep up his 50 and he eats a lot more than I do. So it takes gumption to ask someone to pull their weight especially when you care. So don't feel bad! You did the right thing!

Mini-acid tests: I have to get through tomorrow, which is Valentine's Day, and then I have to get through next Wednesday which is my ex's birthday. I won't be calling or emailing him but it might be sad. And I won't be home to receive any calls or emails - I'll be away again. Easy! Just leave! Anyway, the six months that I told him he needs to do therapy haven't passed! If he had started right away, I could talk to him again in August! ;)

Hugs to all, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

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Dear all, Sharon here. Well.......I got yet another phone hang up at 3:30pm this afternoon here at work. So....that makes 2 so far just today! Dr. Psycho is revving up to something I think. My stance; no participation; no engaging; no phone call back. That is what starts the "go around" of getting back together. I won't do it!!!! Just had to vent!! Thanks friends.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

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Hello everyone, Do you ever feel like you are living out an episode of the X Files? I do right at this minute. We have been to counselling, gone up and down like yo-yos, talked till we can talk no more (or are not talking to each other) and made a million promises we couldn't keep. At yet throughout all of this I have survived. I must be "Scully". And I never, ever thought I would. And the weirdest thing (eerie background music please) I am no longer fixated with my relationship. I used to be. Now my mind fills with the latest book I am reading, the kids I teach, the beautiful sunrise, my dogs.....and the list goes on. My world is not so empty anymore. It felt like it used to be.

So................my relationship is still imperfect (will always be) and is still chugging along slowly (forwards and in reverse) and yet the tears don't form so quickly and my heart does not break.

There are so many more episodes of the X Files to come................................................and we all know the heroes don't really die.

Rebecca

P.S. Not saying my hubby is an alien either!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

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www.chicagoalanon.com

To Make it possible to attend our meeting this week, we are having a special:"NO EXCUSE MEETING"

A cot will be placed in the foyer for those who say "That's my time to rest"

Blankets will be furnished for those who think the room is too cold and fans for those that say it is too hot.

We will have steel helmets for those who say "The roof would cave in if I ever came to a meeting"

We will have hearing aids for those who say "the speaker talks too softly" and cotton for those who say "She speaks too loudly"

Score cards will be available to those that take others'inventory.

Relatives will be in attendance for those that would rather spend time with their families.

A deck of cards will be provided for those that say "It's my poker night" and bowling balls if it's your bowling night.

We will have tv dinners for those that dont have time to cook and attend meetings

One corner will have grass & trees for those that find their Higher Power in nature.

And finally, there will be plenty of tissues for those that only attend meetings when they are hurting.

Borrowed from AIMS Newsletter,Illinois North 1988

See You at the Meeting Thursday Night 9:00PM Central time

www.chicagoalanon.com

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

http://www.chicagoalanon.com

join us for online alanon meetings

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear Jay and Perida,

Thanks for answering my post. after posting it C. phoned me, said sorry and that he could understand that I felt upset about him not wanting me to bring him to the airport. We, again talked about the maney thing, and Jay, you are so write, he really has a bad conscience about it (it was not just not contributing enough, for years he did not contribute very little, which was not his fault, but that made it all the harder top express my anger) , which I really knew all along. He feels he messed up my live, he feels I am still angry and does not know how to handle that.

WE also talked a lot about other things, why he left and had an afair, why things went wrong and why it was so hard to talk about. A lot of word, nager, crying, pacifying. He then asked do you still want to bring me? I said only when you want to, I do not want to bring you when you ‘allow' me to do it. I also aid I would nofeel sad anymore now, since we talked it over, that I coudl understand,m but that I woudl have liked it much better if he had been honest about it earlier so I woudl have had the time to get used to the idea.

So we decided to leave it for the evening and we would talk later about it. We both felt rather good after this conversation. Oh, and I also finally bought up the rhing about condoms he said a while ago in context of the Africa journey and he said you really misunderstood and it was good to have it out in the open and even joke about it. I said this is kind of hard stuff for me because of what happened (him having an afair) and I am not readdy yet to really talk about that, but I woudl like you to acknowledge that this is one of my buttins and maybe not try to push it. Als said how I hated it before when he kept talking about other women and he could say that maybe that was not ok, but he had felt so insecure himself and maybe, in retrospect this had been a way to ask attention.

Leter at night he called (I was sleeping) to tell me he decided he would rather go to the airport without me and it was ok. He asked wetehr I was sleeping and I said yes. This ounds very unimportant, but in fact it was almost the first time I dared say I was asleep, or alredatyin bed when he called. I never dsared to befor, cause 1. I did not want to let him konw I went to bed early (he likes goin to bed late) and 2. I did not want him to feel he disturbed me. It felt good saying that.

So, things are a bit more in perspective. He is coming over for diner this evening and we'll see. I thought I was ok, but woke up feeling a terrible anger at him. But I guess that has also to do with his presenting me with a clear boundary, which he never did before and which I do not like, but know I need to respect. I'll get over it.

Thanks again both of you for replying.

Dear Sharon,

As for the hang-up calls: I got a telephone with a number detector cause I wanted to know who called. It gave me a sense of security and also kept me from wondering. Might be an idea for you too. Hope you have fun with you coffee friends, but please take care not to involve yourself a any kind of relation before you are ready.

Love to all of you. And Lynn and Asha, I miss you. Please come over once in a while. O, yes rebcca, is this Becky, or are you a new person. Well, maybe by the sound of you post, even if you are becky, you are a new person. :-)

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear All, Hi, Jay here with some sleep behind her so I might make a bit of sense. Seems the catbox gets bigger everyday!

Rebecca, I lved your post. I could really identify with the X files bit. I have been trying to do the same and make a life outside of life with me and Jake. It does help. Makes you feel that whatever is going on in the relationship you appear as a normal sane human to the outside world.

I also think posting here keeps me sane. Espescially on Valentines day. Which I guess is a hurdle for us all. I doubt though if Jake has even thought about what day it is and so he probably won't even know he hasn't remembered. So knowing that it is easy to forgive!

To be fair I couldn't bring myself to send him a card. This is so unlike what we used to be like.

But I guess there is plenty else in life to do. This is one day in one year and who knows what the next year will bring. Things are getting better. I don't think they will ever be even near perfect as there is too much water under the brifge and I am still mad about the "other people business."

I used to have very quick soon to be forgotten anger. Why do I now have such smouldering anger? Put a touch paper to me and......I have it under control mostly. But it doesn't leave like it used to.

Maybe the aliens.......

If anger is a signal something is wrong then I suppose I am using anger as a kind of protection against being hurt.

This is all wrong but I feel like a princess in a story where the suitor has to do all sorts of impossible tasks to win her hand. Jake is always the suitor who failed.......But I keep giving him another chance.

I guess Rebecca you have the key. Don't fixate on the relationship.

Sharon, I don't think Dr Psycho is going to let go too easily. Keep pn ignoring his calls and he will go away eventually. Remember abusers get worse once they find they can't abuse any more so expect a few more calls to ignore before he gets the message.

I am having a ridiculous reaction....Jake has so far this morning made my breakfast, been pleasant and washed up. Got HumanKatkid's lunch together,said a pleasant good morning and now I can hear him sweeping the kitchen floor..He will then insist on doing the washing....Some women would think he is gold dust.

Am I grateful, No....I want to do it all myself and there is nothing left for me to do. I know perfectly well I would complain if he never lifted a finger. I've tried everything to make this fairer. I don't want to have nothing to do. But Jake insists on doing what he is doing.

The rub is he thinks he does it better and if I am honest he does. Just I want to fail at it in my own way. I want the choice.

Am I just really mean and ungrateful?

I don't even like doing all the things above! Except I would prefer to get Human Katkid's lunch without any processed food.

How does a health freak get it so wrong. We can't have white bread or even frozen bread and then he gets processed cheese........

I guess it is 50/50 neither of us is going to think the other does anything right.

So what do I do with my 50%, given the anger?

Given I feel controlled.....

Given I can see I am totally ungrateful and unreasonable....

Given I am not going to be able to talk to and change Jake....tried and failed and not ok to demand he changes....

Becoming obsessive about other areas of the house feels like I would be into revenge (which if I am homest I would like) and also feel like I was getting into being controlling myself.

I don't mean I am going to look for revenge.

In many ways the whole thing is stupid. If Jake is out al day why don't I clean the kitchen???????

He criticises if I do and if I tidy up he moves things and they are less tidy again.

So it is about control....

I am giving him too much power by being bothered by this.....

Sorry this post is so long. Seems some days I work things through by tapping into the catbox....sometimes don't even send the post!

Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

Seems we have been posting at the same time. You write: <<I used to have very quick soon to be forgotten anger. Why do I now have such smouldering anger? Put a touch paper to me and......I have it under control mostly. But it doesn't leave like it used to. >>

I know the feeling. I used to say I never got angry, I was so easy going. Now it ometimes seems I get irrationaly angry at lots of things. I could kill the cat (almost, sorry Trubble) cause he pees in the hall, while knowing it is my own fault for not cleaming the Ctabox. Is this symbolic or what... :-) I feel my anger is fed by all the old anger I never wanted to feel, so that's why it often is so out of proportion. I feel it now and I think that is progress, even though it is not a nice feeling. But I think that learning to accept your anger instead of denying it is and important part of recorvery. Next step is to know how to handle it in an approppriate way, not acting out, not denying, but looking for the underlying issues and trying to deal with them.

I know the anger I felt this morning at C. had to do with not having my way, it is almost the tantrum of a little child: i want a cookie and I hate you if you do not give me one. I think it also has to do with the fact that you feel someone else has a kind of power that you yourself woudl want, even if you know you are not entitled to it. A child gets mad at his mother for not giving him a cookie, cause he has no way to get one himself. So Mum has power and the child has not. That feels bad, he gets in a tantrum cause this is the only way he knows how to react.

At our age (:-)) we can and should find other ways to react, without the need to diwempower the other by getting mad.

Hope this makes sense. Take care and give Jake a kiss today.....

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

Seems we have been posting at the same time. You write: <<I used to have very quick soon to be forgotten anger. Why do I now have such smouldering anger? Put a touch paper to me and......I have it under control mostly. But it doesn't leave like it used to. >>

I know the feeling. I used to say I never got angry, I was so easy going. Now it ometimes seems I get irrationaly angry at lots of things. I could kill the cat (almost, sorry Trubble) cause he pees in the hall, while knowing it is my own fault for not cleaming the Ctabox. Is this symbolic or what... :-) I feel my anger is fed by all the old anger I never wanted to feel, so that's why it often is so out of proportion. I feel it now and I think that is progress, even though it is not a nice feeling. But I think that learning to accept your anger instead of denying it is and important part of recorvery. Next step is to know how to handle it in an approppriate way, not acting out, not denying, but looking for the underlying issues and trying to deal with them.

I know the anger I felt this morning at C. had to do with not having my way, it is almost the tantrum of a little child: i want a cookie and I hate you if you do not give me one. I think it also has to do with the fact that you feel someone else has a kind of power that you yourself woudl want, even if you know you are not entitled to it. A child gets mad at his mother for not giving him a cookie, cause he has no way to get one himself. So Mum has power and the child has not. That feels bad, he gets in a tantrum cause this is the only way he knows how to react.

At our age (:-)) we can and should find other ways to react, without the need to diwempower the other by getting mad.

Hope this makes sense. Take care and give Jake a kiss today.....

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

dear AJ.

OUCH. but you are so right.

I just peeked back at the catbox. (I am supposed to be doing something completely differennt and finding all ways of avoiding doing it!).

Something of the inner child stuff in what you say.

Yeah, I guess whatever our partners do we are still wanting that cookie so badly. Probably it relates to all sorts of childhood stuff. Also to supressing anger. But I hear you. It is time we grew up.

To move on, I gues we will have to, There's the rub.

But don't you just hate the idea of acting our age some days?

Give Jake a kiss??????

Noooooooooooooooooooo! I don't wanna.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not until he does what I want.......ALL of it.

Alright, Alright ....I will.

love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

p.s to the catbox I miss Lynn, Dan, Steve, Asha, Becky. too. Was it you who posted about the X files Becky? It didn't occur to me it might have been. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

dear Jay,

:-) :-) :-)

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Jay again. Feeling like a really horribe person. All the while I was saying he hadn't remembered he had put card and present on the piano. Alright I will kiss him he deserves it. I'm not sure what i deserve! Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear Asha,and Dr Irene too, 'cause you do it a lot to me. What does :-) mean? Love, jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear Jay

:-) means SMILE.

:-) :-) :-) menas BIG SMILE

Or I agree in this case

You should give him 2 kisses and a card!!! he deserves it for trying so hard.

Love AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear AJ. All the while I thought that it just meant Dr Irene was marking her place as she left off reading! I get it now....:-) ;-) :-) ;ove, jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Hi,

No I am not 'Becky' but I read one of her messages and it was a bit eerie as it sounded a bit like me (but I suspect she's a tad smarter).

I have been reading some of your posts and feel really inspired by them. Seems like people are doing lots of looking at themselves and their relationships. I know that for a brief period I stopped that (I actually stopped visiting this site) and fell back into a rut. Co-dependency is such a well-learned trait of mine that I need to be on the ball all the time! I also have to keep check of my own anger. Even now I am awake in the middle of the night because I feel a bit sad that H buys me a Valentine's day card (tells me he did) and I am yet to receive it. He forgot to give it to me! I know he went to a lot of effort to buy it..... Must go............hubby caught me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bec

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. In a funk here. Must have slept wrong. Had wierd dreams all night. Nope, haven't heard from Dr. Psycho, no phone hang ups, no valentine card (yeah, right! as if)no nothing. However, I won't be sending him one either. The beauty of it all is that I know what he is thinking though. He thinks he'll get something from me. Not this year. I used to always put him first in remembering birthdays, etc. even when we've been broken up. Not this year. He deserves a couple of little dead bugs in an envelope. oops, did I say that?

Well, at least I have a sense of humor today, right?

Hugs and Happy Valentine Day

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Hi Sharon and everyone, welcome, Becky,

I know what you mean about weird dreams. Listen to this one: I dreamed that I was in a really dangerous, i.e. physically dangerous relationship, and I told my ex about it and HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME! And he left me in danger, maybe to die, without helping me. Isn't that weird? Sometimes dreams are so ironic!

I'd already quit drinking alcohol about 6 weeks ago, but I also quit drinking coffee because while I was on my retreat for 6 days there wasn't any, so I have profited by already having suffered (and slept for three days straight) when there wasn't any coffee, to break the habit entirely. don't know why that's so cool, but I AM calmer! (Who can spare three or four days to sleep off a coffee addiction??)

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! You're all my valentines! I get so much out of this site!

Hugs and chocolate kisses, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 14, 2001

S1

Just checking in--

I haven't had time to read the posts as carefully as I should, so won't comment until I do. Actually I learn more by reading than you all would reading my opinions so maybe we are all better off if I DON'T comment!

Glad to see Rebecca here. I guess if she goes by Rebecca or Bec, we'll be okay. No, Rebecca, you are wrong--I'm not the least bit smarter! If I were, I'd have never had to look for a Verbal Abuse site in the first place!!

I am still thinking a lot about how to live my life more fully. I think that the Celexa is finally starting to make a difference. I only woke up crying once during the last couple of weeks. I do get down, but not so much in the depths as before. I still tend to not care much about certain things, such as the state of the house, but I did scrub two floors today, something I've been putting off.

It's late and I need to be up at 6:00am, so I'll say goodnight. Hopefully I'll get time on Friday to really read over the more recent posts.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

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Dear Trubble, you seem so wise. I wondered if cats deal with emotional abuse. As a human, one of the most difficult things is what to do about a situation in which the person has only a couple of the traits for the abusive personality, including the one where they believe they do not own the problem. What to do. What to do. It's not a situation that seems bad not enough to not have a relationship with the person. After all, don't all relationships have ups and downs? If it was a black and white situation, it would be easier to deal with perhaps. But it's all light gray and I'm all mixed up. Whaddya think, Trubble?

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

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Hi AJ,

I've been poorly sick so sorry I haven't replied until now:

You shouldn't apologise!! You haven't done anything wrong, YOU HAVE BEEN HONEST, isn't that where we need to be at. I WAS honest for the first time in my life, I laid all the cards on the table and so did my Partner. We know we have lots of work still to do and I still fear that things might take a turn for the worse, BUT being honest is a BIG STEP!!

My partner said "It hurt when I was honest but he is so glad I was." GIVE C some time to ponder, SPACE sometimes helps so maybe this trip will give you both some space.

REMEMBER Speaking open and honestly isn't a problem as long as its done in a respectful way. Being manipulative and keeping things so as not to rock the boat are unhealthy.

AJ I know how you are feeling - unsure and lost but I am told this is part of the process, I sure wish I could feel as together as ASHA sounds.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

Hi all, nice to hear from you Bexky and I forgot to say I also miss band Astrid yesterday...Hard to keep up now. Hi Bec, Hi Sharon, perdida and everyone else.

Dear Sharon. Keep away from Dr Psycho and dead bugs too. Enjoy the coffee dates instead.

Dear Perdida, I had to give up coffee too. Another of my docs foibles and no good with homeopathic pills for some reason. I too am a lot calmer although most days I have an incredible craving for Cappuchino! Threee days sleep I wish!....Funnily enough it was hard to avoid coffee on my retreat.

Dear Becky, Your comments are always so helpful that I am not better off without them. Glad the depression is lifting. can really identify with the house issue. The desire to do stuff does come back.

AJ, He got a card about 10pm and then ignored it! I sent him a kiss on the phone....I would hav given him one in person but he ducked! makes me realise how far gone we really are and how much work ther is for us both to do. At least we are in a friendly polite phase.

More therapy tomorrow and I will have to admit he is trying. It is so hard though to be in life with someone who genuilnely thinks you are all wrong and they are all right and then know you have to work on your own shortcomings....If just for once he would admit he is wrong.

I am still struggling with his reply to the Patricia Evans book. "Yes I do all the things she lists but I don't think they are abusive! Then he took the book to his marriage guidance counsellor to discuss (He won't let me join in) and came back saying the counsellor didn't think the book was very helpful. BUT neither of them read it!!!!!!

he does seem to be trying to correct his mistakes but given I am expected to admit mine to him I could really use a two way process!

As for dreams....and I just hope this doesn't make me look really shallow (I was a lot younger). Just before we were married I dreampt Jake had cut his very long hair for our wedding and it looked AWFUL. In the dream his mother was trying toput it right with a pudding bowl. It was such a vivid dream that I woke up the next morning in a panic thinking that I couldn't posibly marry him and fully expecting him to come into the room with the awful short hair cut.

Whar a relief when he entered as his usual hairy self and I realised it was all a dream!

As he has never ever cut it or his beard (Just think of a grey Gandalf) I have no idea if I would pass this test of love! He even turned down good jobs for the sake of keeping his hair long!!!!

Which sort of makes me feel warmer towards him.....Why oh why can't he just see what he did/does is wrong, say sorry and make it all o.k

I guess because of the very reason I am posting: the abusive bit of him that disrespects me.....I just wish he wasn't his own worst enemy.

The dolemma I have is that as I start to like Jake more I go into denial about the ad stuff and try and pretend it doesn't exist: then I get realy hurt if the bad bits surface or he does something new..

I married this man for his integrity. For his morality, honest, inteligence and uprightness of character over and above the hair. Where has all that gone??????? I think he thinks it is all there and I see it as subtly warped by the need to control.

I gues he could say some pretty tough things about me.....How does a couple who actually have survived against allsorts of odds get into this state...I guess my being codependent is a BIG part of it, Him having seemingly lost the ability to express emotion is another,

I should ne grateful there are no drugs or alchohol, He is a workaholic though so there is an addiction. Light bulb!!!!!!!!!

Of course he is working on housework. His firm is prety good at letting the workers rest when there is no crisis. His boss actually says it is family and marriage and then work in that order.Sohe is not able to hide at an office.....He has therefore to "work: at whatever he can find....I had been thinking the workoholism had improved. Now I am wondering if he has just found another drug. He gets really angry if I try to take some of the household chores back. How many people have a husband who when his wife says she would prefer to do the washing confiscates the keys of a car he can't drive (never learnt) until she says she will let him do it....

At the time I thought it was crazy. It certainly felt crazy making. But maybe if I saw it in terms of an addictive personality??????

So where do I go with that? Why oh why is there not a workoholics Annonymous?????Yhis stuff is even generational. His parents and grandfathers just will/would not stop!

This is all a lot about Jake and not a lot about me....definite codependent stuff....marries out of need and because i thought I could "help' Jake out of being a workoholic...perppetuated it ?how...actually it probably suited me to be seen as the "helper'. In the early says it was quite convenient to be able to do what I wanted as I knew Jake would always be working...Genera;;y though I did what Jake wnated for the sake of peace...even down to accepting I couldn't learn to drive, changing career direction,, intitial choice of college course.....conversation....when we had kids...

Then I start to stick up for myself and become my own person. No wonder he is confused.

I think I may be confused a bit too and I probably shouldn't have written so much. Help I just looked back and I have waffled on seemingly forever. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

OOps sorry it is me again, I also meant to say something to Dr Irene.

Having discovered that :-) means smile or I agree I looked bach at sonme previous posts and discovered I owe you an apology over the post where I try to say the abused do not allow abuse until they are aware they are doing it. How did I miss all that blue pencil?

You are right I shouldn't put words into your mouth. It tok me half of yeaterday to work out why you thought i did, but I did get the point in the end. A reflection on me it took so long to see how I misrepresented you. I apologise for that.

Actually it led on to a long train of thought about how I think I so often do that to Jake. I sort of assume he he will act in certain ways or say certain things ot htink in particular ways. or has even said them........self fulfilling prophecy???? precicely what the therapist picked up on last week. jay

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Nothing to report. I'm glad Valentine's day passed. I didn't send Dr. Psycho a card or phone call!! I'm very proud of myself. Went to my women support meeting last night. Very empowering!

Today I'm feeling emotionally "flat" though. The 2 coffee dates turned out "OK" nothing exciting, but its a diversion.

Anyway, no news is good news, right? (well, sometimes!!)

hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

Dear AJ

Asha here. I am still reading the catbox, but am just not as absorbed in it these days (which I think is a good sign now). If you'd like to email me, contact Dr. Irene ask her to send my email address to you (Jay, or Theressa too).

Hello also to all the new people. I have been very busy, so I don't have the time to respond as much as I used to.

and hi Becky...

Theressa

you said: <<<I know how you are feeling - unsure and lost but I am told this is part of the process, I sure wish I could feel as together as ASHA sounds.>>>

That is so sweet and I am flattered. Thankfully Dr Irene was available when I didn't know where else to turn. I think that by going through some of these steps ourselves, we can also help others know what steps to take. To me that is "real" helping vs the over-responsible kind.

Your situation was similar to mine - living apart several months, then learning to detach and move on with your life, and finding a new balance with your mate who is now sincerely willing to look at these issues... this pattern seems fairly typical (for those who are not *too* entrenched in their ways). If only we didn't want to rush through those first stages so much and try to "fix" our partners!

Oh, and I must mention that Steve and I went out for Valentine's dinner - this is a big step as all traditions were a big conflict for us before.

Though things are improving greatly relationship-wise for Steve and I, we have other junk to deal with - financial issues, issues with his ex - lots of "external" stuff that you can't necessarily control. I'm trying to experience it as part of life's lessons, but sometimes the answers don't come right away.

Anyway life goes on...

take care everyone

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

Hi, Theressa, sorry you have been sick, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Hi All,

I am taking each day at a time!

A few things have happened since we started seeing each other again. Firstly we went out and I was not very well so I felt very irratable. WHAT ANGERS ME ABOUT OTHERS is when I say I am ill please don't wind me up, DO They listen NO, They push and push.

My partner did this, I was feeling hot and aching all over. As we walked up to the porch i dropped my keys. My partner laughed, he was in good spirits. I said "Don't wind me up!" I felt tense and irratable. He didn't listen he then tickled my sides. I snapped, and said "I told you not to wind me up." BUT THE TONE WAS AN ANGRY ONE. He held his hands up and said "I am going home, Jackel and hyde." and he left and got in his car. I shouted to him to come back. He ignored me and drove off.

I felt really angry, I started telling myself, I knew this would happen. He'd have to wind me up and spoil it. AND since I have slept with him, it served me right. YES I know I said I wouldn't but I wanted him so badly. So I am sat beating myself up for snapping. Then I send him a text message saying Sorry, but you did say you wouldn't wind me up when I was ill.

He didn't reply. (SAYS HE WAS ASLEEP IN BED) So in the morning I sent another message saying, "Hi Sexy, how are you doing?" He replied saying "Hi babe, I have been a bit busy this morning. Sorry I rushed off last nite but I saw red and needed to go off to cool down alone.

I replied saying "THIS was good, that he went to cool down and not argue over something so small."

DID I DO RIGHT?

Did he do RIGHT?

(Dr Irene can you answer these questions for me so I know we are going along the right track as far as managing our anger is???)

I told him I thought he'd not reply but might have been stuborn. He said "No, I'd have written when I wasn't busy".

A few weeks ago my daughter saw a jean jacket and asked if we could buy it. I said "No, its too cold. Me and your dad wouldn't like it." I PRESUMMED since in the past I've done everything possible so as he wouldn't moan, JUST in case!!

Anyway just over a week ago my partner and my daughter came home with a new jean jacket. I felt angry. BUT the anger was at myself. I'd not just decided myself whether or not to buy the jean jacket, I'd used people pleasing habits so he wouldn't moan, I'd radared in and made sure he wouldn't be able to moan.

THIS IS A BAD HABIT. I need help getting rid of???

Then at Christmas me and my daughter were in a shop, she wanted to buy some high boots. I said "No, your dad said they are too high, the last time you asked, (HE DID!!) SO I didn't let her buy them. THEN on Saturday just gone what do you suppose my partner and my daughter came home with? You guessed the same boots.

OF COURSE I'd not told my partner that I'd said "NO to the jean jacket or boots". It was just I'd assummed that he'd say she could not have them. It is like I was protecting myself so that he couldn't get angry.

SO WHEN I saw the boots I said "Oh, great I say NO, you say YES". He said "What do you mean?" I said "I told her she couldn't have the boots cause they were too high, but you go ahead and buy them."

He said "I didn't know you said she couldn't buy them, I just bought them for weekends, not for school Though". I said "For years we've said she couldn't have them boots, until she's older."

He said "Why are you so angry, it isn't a big deal." TO ME IT WAS!!

I spent some quiet time alone. I realise most of my decisions I make as protection EVEN NOW!! Protection in the form of playing it safe incase he goes mad.

MY PARTNER HOWEVER, seems to make his decisions based on what he thinks is RIGHT, HOW CAN I DO THIS?

I realised I was angry at my partner cuz I'd taken into account what he said as if he was my DAD and what he says goes. SO I'D not bought the boots on the strength that he'd not like me to. SO IT SEEMS I consider what he might say, but he just goes ahead and buys them off his own steam.

He does alot of things just cuz he wants to, AND I do alot of things based on whether he'd approve. HOW CAN I STOP THIS?

I wish I knew what a healthy relationship was like?????

One which isn't enmeshed but is healthy, any ideas???

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa,

I know, isn't maddening when your partner seems to have aquired all the abilities you have been working on hard on and you still feel you cannot do it? I go through the same thing time and time again with C. He seems to make decissions based on what he really wants, while I keep taking what i think he wants into account only to find out later that is not even what he wants. It gets very confusing that way.

I do try to make my own decissions, based on what I want, but sometimes it seems that the only thing I want is to please him. Big news, he.... :-) But, big deal: I did make the decission that I might by a holiday house in Turkey (a friend is found something promising for me) and I did not ask him and will not now. May be it is a protest, maybe I need to show my independence, maybe I need to believe in a future together (he comes from Turkey) and probably a bit of all. But I do not care so much any more.

As about speaking open and honest, you are right, this is important, but it feels very hard sometimes. But our confrontation certainly had its good sides, and even he admits so. On wednesday he came over and brought fish and other stuff for dinner and had put on his eararing which I like and started by saying the thought about taking condoms to Africa never ever had crossed his mind and he WAS NOT TAKING ANY. More then the fact itself, it was his acknowledgement of my need to hear this, that made me feel good.

We had a nice evening and I called him in the morning to wish him a good journey. He tried to call later form the airport, but I wasn't there. I feel ok now, though I am very much wresstling with this making your own decission thing. Why is it that men seem so much more able to do this. I always feel that making my own decissions is making the distance between us bigger and bigger. I KNOW that when I do it, he has to do more to get close again (which he seems to do), but I don't trust him to do it and I find it very hard to confront my own fears on this.

Well, i've said it before, hard work still ahead. Part of me likes the exitment of living alone, being able to a certain extent to do what i want to, part of me just wants us to be together for ever and know it will be ok. Can't have it both I guess. At least I did not find a way yet....

Dear Asha, thanks, I thing I'll ask dr. I for you'r mail adress, cause ther are some things I'ld like to ask that I would not want out on the web. Glad you two are doing ok, and may be all the harsh words and confrontation were needed. I find now that even though I am scared to dead of disagreeing with C., that is does clear the air and brings more intimacy. At least we know were we stand.

Love and hugs to all, and what happenend to our Cat's house???

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Hi Catbox.

Dear Asha. You sound like you are really on top. Gives me hope...I came into the catbox after you so maybe I just have to be a bit more patient. I loked at the cat house and it is too small. We will ha ve to delay living in it until an extension is built...!!!!Dr Irene has my email address and I am happy for you to give it to her.

I think Theressa, you did what you could while you were ill. And it is freat your partner went off to cool down instead of arguing. I wouldn't put sleeping with the father of your child into the same category of the other guy. And I don't think any couple will ever never have their angry moments. It is what happens when they escalate that is the key.

I don't know and I am sure Dr Irene does, but I think it is all about finding yourself being centred before you make a decision.

My guess is Missy in the way of all kids had a pretty good go at getting those clothes. That is just kids for you. Your partner wasn't to know you felt so strongly (although possibly Missy did) so maybe the thing to do to communicate with each other before you get stuff if your partner will agree.

The pleasing people thing is I guess what comes in time that you do things to please the other person as you love them and it is no big deal not to.It's doing the stuff that is a big deal for you to do as it doesn't do anything useful for the relationship is the stuff that is not ok to please for.

Bu tI did find myself thinking that you would never know if he had changed if you kept pleasing him as you were worried he goes nuts if you do what he doesn't want to.

AshA, A house in Turkey sounds great. Something of your own. I think men can make decisions as they have had years of cultural heritage. They got to practice through the generations.

As for me. I think I am geting centred and I have managed a whole confrontation with the teacher we all complain about at HumanKatkid's school without getting upset or worried or any of the stuff that usually accompanies a confrontation with her. This woman is truly awful to kids and ironically the child protection coordinator for the whole school and she is so innapropriate. If HumanKatkid says she is innapropriate in what she says to him then I know he is pretty upset as he is a fairly tolerant kid. Upset he was ansd justifiably so.

I complained. She attenpted to justify and for about the first time ever I found myself saying that I could not accept her justifivation as I did think something had happened. I was calm and cool and polite but I held my ground and pointed out it wasn;t the first time one or other of my kids had complained about her. Even while agreeing that it was appropriate to give human katkid detention etc if he forgot his books. That was not the issue her remarks to him were. I feel like David slaying Goliath. Finally someone told the headmaster and someone said how they felt to her and she didn't manage to wriggle out of it with charm...And it was me.Probably this ony makes sense to other parents at the school.

I feel like I protected my child.

And I haven't as usual started to worry if I was wrong. I know where I stand.

Amnd now I have the whole evening free as Jake and Human Katkid have gone to se Eric Clapton and this was an all male thing. (I wish they had told me though and I would have found an all female party!).

And finally some breakthroughwith Jake...He is willing to look at the stuff on an interdependent relationship on this site and to talk to the therapist about control issues. Guess I better get looking at if I am controlling......I know he is. Maybe there is hope. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Dear All, Sharon here. Well, all is quiet. No news on Dr. Psycho - although I saw him on the road to work. I was getting my breakfast at the local bagel store and he drove by. He looked like a great big stuffed shirt. Big and bloated. So, I'm sure somebody is puffing him up. He needs to get some big dead bugs in the mail. Oops, did I let that out again? My anger does come out every now and then. The funny thing is that I read this stuff later and I have to say - it makes me laugh ALOT!!!! Yep, I crack up at my own writings!! It is very healing though. The women's group meeting I attend weekly is very good for me. I've gotten alot out of it. I can say that my "love" for him is shifting. I feel repulsed at the idea of going back to his abuse. I cringe at some of the memories, and I know I'm going through the process - "mourning" - if you will. I'm trying to embrace it - these feelings - today its anger - yesterday it was some sadness - tomorrow - well? I am not sure. The only thing I can say is that I feel different. Its been 30 days - the longest time apart where I have felt this "detaching" and I think it has to click this time. I can't allow myself to go back! I must not for my sake. I know I will get bitten again by his tongue, his toxic ways, his crazymaking, his cruelty. I am validating myself these days. Because I am truly on my own.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Hey Catbox,

Okay, first I will mention that Kathleen and Perdida are the same person, so the Catbox shrinks by one. Next I will ask Sharon if Dr. Psycho was REALLY good in bed because this can be a big emotional pull and can make someone stay in a bad relationship for longer than they should. If so, don't worry, you'll find someone better. Eventually.

Now I want to lament and hear myself be ridiculous. I've been feeling sad and sorry for my ex about the way I broke it off. I would have liked to break things off in a calm conversation rather than with all the drama. I would have preferred to suggest gently that he get some therapy and then we talk again, rather than telling him (yelling) that he needed six months of therapy before I would speak to him again. It's a serious thing to tell someone you think they need counseling, that their mind is not up to snuff. I know because not only do I work in psychiatry but I know how it felt when he yelled at ME to get help!

which brings me to the time that I have to remind myself that I have never had a calm conversation with him about our relationship, that he starts screaming right away as soon as he feels defensive. So my wish for calm would have been impossible. And I was reacting to his thinking I was another woman on the phone, after talking to me on the phone every day for three years. And I must keep in mind what others have said about him really wanting to push me out of the relationship to make room for someone else he already had in mind. I have no way of knowing if this was happening and it's really not my business at this point - the important thing was that I wasn't able to communicate calmly with him anyway, any time, about anything.

I guess I am looking for comforting! *snif* but still staying strong...

perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Dear Perdida, Hugs, you ARE strong. love jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here: Wow! More red flags!! One of the new men I met that answered my ad asked me out for tonight to go to the movies...Well, I said yes on Wednesday to him, however, last night on the phone he started in with getting personal about my body. He started to get very personal - and I've had these red flags all day about him. He has become fixated of only a certain part of me. He's called me 2-3 times already at work and I'm again feeling "wierd" and already the thought of "odd" so he just called again and I told him that I decided that I didn't feel as though the chemistry was quite right. I mean, we only met Wednesday! Don't get me wrong, with the right guy I love being intimate - but we just met!! Again, another one I felt "odd" about. So, again, its about making choices for myself. I would much rather stay home on a Friday night then feel uncomfortable with someone who could give a hoot about getting to know me for me and just wants to see my breasts! Dr. Psycho was the same way!! I know there are really nice, decent, honorable men out there.

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa

I think your partner had a pretty natural reaction of being upset because you pushed him away for tickling you (in his mind he was probably trying to show you affection). You were sick and grumpy. No big deal, but if he was "seeing red" then he probably was wise to leave. It's nice that he apologized for it the next day and explained why he left. If you acknowledge your own behavior to him also (you were grumpy, because you felt sick) rather than focussing on what he did (you said in your post: "Sorry, but you did say you wouldn't wind me up when I was ill." your emphasis = him = external) this would help *you* because you would not be putting so much emphasis over something (someone) you have no control over. And be gentle with yourself - no need to beat yourself up, you're only human.

As for the boots and the jean jacket - you can't read his mind so why try so hard? Be respectful though, i.e. if he says he doesn't want your daughter's hair dyed blue, then going out and dying it blue without further discussion won't achieve anything good. (believe me I've seen this firsthand :)

Maybe he "gave" on the boots and the jacket because he's trying to be less controlling over your daughter's choices. You could ask him about it, in any case. It's not your daughter's fault either. She sounds typically kid-like. (At least it wasn't a tattoo!! :) It sounds like it would be helpful for you and your partner to talk about buying decisions and whether it's necessary to make those decisions together or independently of each other.

A comparable situation was me having Steve check over all my client emails and proposals before sending them off - I felt this used to hold me back and slow me down. Now Steve trusts me to do this without running everything by him, and I've found that I often *do* like to get his feedback. This was something that didn't use to "feel right" to me and they are the types of things only you can decide. If it doesn't feel right to run every clothing decision by your partner, then talk about it to him. It's good to be a united front, but you need to have some freedom to make individual decisions too. Look at your feelings about it as well as the motives behind those feelings.

I know there have been times when Steve was upset because he would make a choice based on how he 'thought' I would feel, and sometimes my feelings were not at all what he was thinking. Asking is always better than mind-reading IMO.

Dear AJ

I look forward to hearing from you via email. I was reflecting on a previous comment you made to me (quite awhile back) about focussing too much on the little things. I think that was a part of my process. There was a time when I let too much get swept under the carpet and I needed to look carefully at all those "little things" that I felt so rotten about. Gradually my boundaries have gotten stronger so that a "little thing" can go by and I know that I won't allow it to become a bigger thing. I think I had to go through a stage of looking at my life through a microscope to see what was really going on and know that I could trust myself to protect myself. I must feel stronger now, because lots of little things happen and though I sometimes feel hurt, they are not so devastating to me.

My current issues are about getting back on my feet financially and I get confused between the "parental voices" which focus on security and stability, and the voice within, which focusses on manifesting my "dreams". The voice within however doesn't always come through easily on an external level. I want to have faith, but maybe the lesson is about patience. Usually when I look back on things I can see what I've learned and why they happened. But in the midst of difficulty, I can't always understand the purpose. Money isn't everything, but it sure can make life a lot easier!

hello Jay, and everyone else.

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001

S1

Jay again. Wasn;t going to post at all but the lure of the catbox....Asha the boundary stuff really is the key, I guess. I can really identify with what you say to AJ. This morning I woke up realising that WOW I knew what I wanted and what was and wasbn't o.k for me. The self doubt is gone and I feel undepressed despite various yucky stuff going on.

No pills, some sleep. No worry this time about withdrawal as this time I have the homeopathic ones and if I don't feel right I just take them again. I think I am going to try and keep off the coffee though although yeaterday I had wine with my lunch: just a glass frogetting how long it is since I have done that and then realised I was in town, with car and feeling hazy. Fortunately the library is a good place to hide!!!

I have some teaching to do: English to a boy with ADHD which will be nice as it means I have to brush up and some proper childcare tutoring (just a little but they WANTED me) for next term, I am also going to do some voluntary work for an advocacy agency and in all of it it hasn't occured to me I needed Jake's approval. I don't feel the need to see if I am o.k. I KNOW I am o.k. I am sticking up for me and that feels very O>K. And progress. Jake is agreeing I can take Dr Irene's description of an interdepemdent relationship to the next therapy session....This is the one where the control issue gets addressed. The therapist worked on geting him to present a united front with the kids and that is making a huge difference.

And I am going to go to a barn dance and leave Jake and HumanKatkid for the evening...revenge for Eric Clapton?!!!!Actually they can come if they want but they are still not back. A new experience I haven't been to one since I was a kid.

Trubble! they finally elected you? At least I think that is what the hat means.Now you have to come over for a state visit and show us how it is done. jay