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B1: Submit S1I agree Dr. Irene, about not getting stuck in rage and it takes 2 to tango when it comes to abuse. A lot of support victims give each other is rooted in the rage and also the desire to not have anyone (known to them and unknown to them) feel and experience what they have. I currently post on a different website where the women are supportive of one another, but there is an underlying, "working towards getting the strength to LEAVE". While it is nice to support, if you do not fix what got you there in the first place, YOU WILL REPEAT this pattern over and over again. I see myself a codependent victim survivor who was given the "best" training by a very alcoholic controlling, sexist, racist father and a codependent, low self esteem mother. I realize I am programmed to be an overachieving ambitious woman who also happens to be very good at picking broken men to fix. I have been in therapy for 8 months now, reading CoDependent No More, Patricia Evans books. What I have realized through all this is MY part in the pattern, and if I don't "rewire" myself I will repeat this pattern and live my parents marriage again and again. I have learned to take responsibility for MY actions and not allow MY boundaries to be crossed. Excellent. I try to focus my anger and rage at my STBX (he is fighting the divorce every step of the way) to do work harder on myself. I honor the anger, but also realize I must get past it for my future. While I would like to have things work out for my marriage, I know it cannot happen. I had started enforcing my boundaries in Dec and was ready to file for divorce in March of 00, he then entered individual therapy and medication. About 2 months after that his behaviors started to return, though my more subtly. I kept my boundaries firm and things started to escalate with him, then the denial of the abuse started, both previous and current. I had hoped we could work on this, but if you both don't want to work on it, it cannot happen. After talking with his ex-fiancé who was with him 5 years, it appears this is a pattern for him. Even now while telling mutual friends how much he loves me, he also tell them his attorney to "go for blood and nail me to the wall". Friends are baffled by that one too. If in a relationship BOTH partners truly are working on themselves to fix their problem, then they should be supported. Perhaps too often, the abuser will use the counseling as yet another controlling tool, as mine really tried to, to keep their victim in place. Yes; you've got to expect that since that is what many angry people do. But, that's OK. That's part of what the therapist needs to work with the person on. I think this totally highlights the need for couples to find a counselor who is TRAINED in abuse, since ignorance of this issue causes so much damage to those involved. Yes. Thank you again Dr. Irene for this site, you have really helped my find my balance between blaming and sticking in the anger or using this a fantastic learning opportunity. Karen Thank you Karen!
B1: Submit S1What the man who wrote this letter doesn't' seem to understand is that generally, when you see the "50" posts encouraging a woman to leave, it's after her first original post described awful, awful abuse. I mean, the woman has two choices right? Either continue to take the abuse (because generally, like most victims, the woman has been trying to tell her husband that he's abusive) or to leave. She is looking for strength to leave. That strength should come from herself, but it doesn't help to have the validation of other people cheering you on. As for the original letter writer's boundary statement "This ends here and now, etc." I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing abusers would've changed had they heard this one thing. Of course they wouldn't...as I non-angrily pointed out. I know I gave my abuser a message just like that many times! My problem is that I didn't enforce my boundaries by leaving. So if I got on here, described the boundary I set, the girls cheered me on, and I left, I would be doing something wrong, as would my cheerleaders? I'm confused as to what the writer of the letter wants. He's highlighting the problem many angry types have on the site: he feels attacked. He is, I think, accurately responding to the underlying anger in the posts. I published his letter because I see same and think victim types need some awareness in this area - for the sake of their own empowerment! In order for boundaries to be effective, you have to enforce them. Nothing wrong with finding some validation to enforce your boundaries that an abuser has chosen to violate. (except again that I guess a person shouldn't NEED validation to make these choices.) -SatokoGirl, a non-stuck in rage recovery girl still with her trying-to-be-not-stuck-in-rage recovery boy
B1: Submit S1Little correction: I am also a *trying*-not-to-be-stuck-in-rage recovery girl. I wasn't trying to say that my bf is doing a worse job of not being stuck in rage than I am- we both fall into that trap sometimes but we're both getting much better. Thanks. -SatokoGirl And you'll be even better when you understand the message here. Keep up the good work!
B1: Submit S1Yes! I understand! In fact, during a calm discussion the other day, I acknowledged my responsibility for the state of our marriage (I came into it with a lot of erroneous beliefs about myself AND relationships, and I did not have to where-with-all to set boundaries early on) and told him that my being in therapy, reading good material on codependency and boundaries, and developing respect for myself, was my way of taking care of my "stuff." It's hard, but I am sincerely working on myself. Good! His response? "You're not taking responsibility! Acknowledging and taking responsibility are two different things!" Great Balls of Fire! I just told him I took responsibility for my part in this! I am working to FIX my part in this! He's projecting his perfectionism on you. Don't go there; don't engage. I have told my husband that his behavior hurts me--he says EVERYTHING hurts me! I have withdrawn, stayed out of his way, quit "doing" for him--it doesn't influence him to change, at least not very much. He just usually accuses me of not being a good wife! If and when I do leave (and I am taking steps in that direction, little by little), he HAS had fair warning! Anger can be a great motivator, but it is important to not get stuck there, because then, we can't move on. I do get very angry at times (at BOTH of us), but mostly, I am full of grief. And I, too, am bothered by advice that seems fueled by anger. It's useless to tell a woman "Get out! Leave the sorry SOB!" If she isn't ready, for whatever reasons, that doesn't help her. In fact, it could cause her to feel even more inadequate, i.e. "This other person is so much stronger than I am, so much more "together" because she just walked out. I'm such a loser because I can't do that!" You mentioned fantasies about the abuser being dead. I understand that, but I don't indulge in it. I realize that what he gives is what he will receive someday, and that every hurtful thing he does to me, or anyone else, will come back on him eventually. It's a divine law that applies to us all. Thank you Becky. Becky
B1: Submit S1It takes time to heal, to look after yourself, before you can see that it takes two to allow the abuse. I went on blaming my ex partner for 4 years, for all the abuse he put me through. I finally realized that it took me, to allow him to do what he did. Now, that's empowerment! I think, and hope, that now, I can go on to another relationship and not allow any abuse. I will be able to say no, to that treatment. It is not easy to look yourself in the face, and say: You did it to yourself. I like myself now. I do not deserve to be treated that way. Yes, some abusers will not get the message, and keep abusing. Hopefully, there are some that do. Many get the message, but once you have the message, it takes time to learn how to stop abusing. Just like when you learned about boundaries: at first, even though you understood the concept, you couldn't put it into effect; it takes time and practice to pick up and perfect the requisite skills. It is very hard to love someone, and see the relationship go to the deep end, and there is no solution. Now, I realize that my partner has many problems also. As much as I was the one trying to solve all his problems, I now realize it was an impossible task. I sometimes wonder if I am not too broken for anyone else... I have suffered much rejection in the past 4 yrs. It makes me see that there are many people out there who need to control others. They are not for me. I do not want to control anymore, neither do I want to be controlled. Hang in there, you who are being abused. Men or women. Learn to love, respect and accept yourselves for who you are. Those are big steps that helped me, and still do. moon Well, Moon, one thing's for sure: you are a heck of a lot healthier now. And getting better all the time.
B1: Submit S1Dr. Irene, I am working on not getting stuck in rage now that I finally understand that I have been verbally abused for 22 years. I didn't know the name for it, as it felt normal to me. It was a crazy place to be in. I am in therapy and getting the support and help I need. My abuser husband has realized his abuse and is in therapy and wants to find and explore why he does this as his own self-esteem is very low. We read our daily meditations together and share what we choose to from our journal writings, (If we want and decide to). The abuse has slips but he recognizes them now and knows this is HIS stuff and is working on HIS OWN recovery, I on the other hand am working on mine. Yippeee! My focus is also on my personal emotional safety while I am busy becoming the best I can become. Good. Taking care of yourself must be your very first priority, always. Whatever will be will be, I have a one day at a time attitude, and while we are on a journey to personal growth together, we are also VERY separate and personal. I CANNOT get stuck in rage but don't get me wrong, when you finally wake up it is amazing the depth of the rage you feel. I know! That's why I have to print stuff like this out! I have to keep the focus on me , I'm not perfect at it but I'm getting there. I love your site and pray for victims and abusers everywhere daily..Peace and love. Sue :) Keep up the excellent work Sue.
B1: Submit S1YES I do understand and I also now understand how I took the dance steps too. Although for a year now I've tried not to dance the steps. I did get angry for a time but once I visited Dr Irene's site I STOPPED. I read and tried to learn everything I could. I told my abuser (I never called him this) that things were wrong he had control issues, but he already knew, he'd knew for years, he knew he had a bad temper, he knew he dealt with his anger badly. He was offered help but refused it. He told the person who offered it that he thought being aggressive was a male thing and without it he wouldn't be a man. I was a doormat, I was a people pleaser, I did play my part well, though as soon as I realized I tried so hard to tell my abuser, I was not going to dance anymore. Do you know what happened? The more I said "No" to the abuse the more intense it got. My abuser stopped breaking pots, though he didn't stop putting me down every step of the way. He humiliated me and told me I was wrong all the time. I didn't listen for the some part but some of it went in. His family said I was too sensitive and ungrateful. I compromised so much that I never got anything I wanted. Though I don't blame my abuser. I even told him everything that was wrong and for the first time admitted my problems. He promised we could sort things out, but for seven days whilst we were trying to sort things, he accused me of wanting a perfect partnership. I said no I just want to be able to agree to disagree or to compromise if its a big thing. I don't want you to call me nasty names just because I don't agree with your opinion. This is not healthy, and its not perfect either. I just want respect. Do you know what he said in reply to this: we are incompatible. (Isn't everyone isn't this why we need to compromise or if its a small thing just accept that we are different and beg to differ) He said he's had enough of me. He wants to leave. Wow! He's in big-time denial. Too bad he has the support of a family that supports illness. Problem is I was already leaving because I know that he thinks I am the problem, he told me I am. He told me I should be careful because I am false (I am or at least I was, I tried to pretend to those outside that everything was fine for along time) so YES I am guilty of that. He told me I am sensitive (Who wouldn't be if they were being attacked all the time) YES I am guilty of that. I don't appreciate him (NO, not for the nasty things he does but I do thank him for the good things about him, and yes there are things that are good about him even now!!!) Yes I am guilty for that. How wonderful that you are not defensive! Excellent! You own your stuff... I realized its not people pleasing that's wrong, its people pleasing without also people pleasing yourself, doing things and asking for things for yourself. I like the way you word that. I realize that we are different, I realize I am further in recovery and he is in denial and blaming me for everything. It was only when I finally accepted my part in all of this that I started to recover. I don't blame my partner. I do pity him because I know myself how soul destroying denial is. Yes. I am not better than him; maybe a little wiser because of all the reading and help I've received. Maybe a lot wiser. I am going to go it alone; why? because its the only way he'll ever realize that he played a role as well as me. Then maybe he can't sort it out. It makes me sad but I had to admit that it was the potential I was so in love with and YES I did love some things about him, but I also hated much more of the abusive things he did. It is not unusual for a victim, who knows no better, to sell out and fall for the dream / what may be. Good for you for seeing all this. I just hope one day he can be saved also. Though now I know its not up to me or my problem. Thanks so much Dr Irene for helping me wake up. You did it kiddo. The right stuff is out there for the taking. YOU sought it out; YOU applied it appropriate. God bless you and yours. Take care Theressa
B1: Submit S1I guess I am atypical. I never experienced rage. When the first started was when I had the most overt anger. As it progressed, I became depressed. I just got more and more depressed and I am still depressed months after we split up. It seems to me the guy who wrote in is a real complainer with twisted logic. Even after his marriage is over, instead of exhibiting any empathy for his abused wife, he complains that the marriage would have been saved if only she knew the the right words to say to set boundaries! That's not accurate. I edited out much of the other material. Overall, I read his note as understanding why his wife left, but he is taking this space to express his frustration and rage in an appropriate way. I don't have a problem with that. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. A case where an abusive person who is feeling hurt can't deal with his feelings, so he turns it into a complaint against someone else. Even in this edited version, I can't see that, though I know what you're getting at. What you are seeing expressed is big-time frustration. I think you are too angry to see that; rageful even... Several things he said bother me, and another one is that he implies that because the abuse typically has been going on for years, the victims shouldn't try to get Out??? Something I find very interesting is that this guy does not mention his wife's rage or even anger at all, and yet here we are being invited to talk about being stuck in rage. Am I the only one who is not stuck in rage - in fact I never got there? You are stuck, I think. That puts you in the majority. Most victims waking up spend at least some time in rage. Hard not too. Take a look; you need to recognize the anger in your words, otherwise you are likely to get stuck! The purpose of this board is to educate you that rage should be a transient place; that you should aim to make it such rather than seeing rage as an end point.
B1: Submit S1Dr Irene, You say in one of the posts that just because an abuser knows he is playing a role doesn't mean he can immediately change. RIGHT?? Right. Depending on the skills required for change. I know how long it has taken me to get comfortable with the fact that I played a part and understand it will take my abuser along time to see his role, if he ever does. This is why I think that leaving is the only option because when I go to counseling (Start 21st Aug) and start to get healthy, maybe he will see that YES I did play a role, and so did he. Is it possible for someone who is an abuser to see this once you've left. That's usually when they wake up, unfortunately. I plan to keep on being responsible for myself and using all the skills I've learned. In the hopes that as our child's parents, I can show him, her father, we can compromise. DR IRENE my question to you is after all the abuse, how can one hear criticism which maybe constructive without feeling attacked?? You can't early on. The best you can do early on is to not react behaviorally to feeling attacked ("do nothing"). To be able to tell the difference between when you are and are not being attacked takes a little more work: you have to sift through the old, destructive tapes you play in your head when someone pushes your buttons. This takes time. Counseling will help; I'm glad you're starting. Is it when you fully have your self esteem back and you can look at mistakes from an objective point?? As you regain your esteem and integrity, you have more "stuff." You better internalize the fact that just because a person has a negative opinion of you, their opinion does not make you more negative. They simply hold an opinion - that without being defensive, you may or may not agree with. If you agree that there is truth to their negative evaluation, you are not crushed by the realization because you already know you're not perfect (but love yourself anyway!). In other words, another person's opinion is less likely to affect your self esteem one way or the other. Thanks very much, I hope you answer these questions. Theressa
B1: Submit S1Dear Atypical: A few comments on your post. How exactly is "overt anger" different from rage? Did you ever have feelings of glee or gloating during this time that you were finally free of your abuser? Where you happy to share that feeling with your ex or others? Also, while it is undisputed that women should leave an abusive relationship, do you feel like they have any responsibility in the break up, especially if the abuse went on for years, and if they left the relationship emotionally and didn't inform the spouse? Perhaps they could or should have left immediately when they still had feelings for their spouse. There is no advocate in our society for staying together, or getting back together, but a lot of support and advice of how to get on with your life once the damage is done. That's not true. Religious institutions, even political institutions support the unity of the family. Perhaps different ways of saying stop the abuse don't work and leaving is the only alternative. The original post was a very short letter. It didn't say anything one way or the other about the wife's anger. Maybe she was in fact angry as hell! Also, many men who are rejected by their spouses are extremely confused and this does indeed result in "twisted logic". Ooops! You are angry with her! But, she didn't do anything to you, though her words pushed some buttons... Why give her so much power? PJM
B1: Submit S1Well, his email made me VERY mad. Why? Why give him so much power? Do you see gang, there is a difference between not liking a viewpoint and getting worked up over it. If you find yourself getting worked up, that's your cue that you've got a little work to do. Figure out what baggage you are towing around that sets you off. And dump it. It's hard not to think that his wife DID TRY on numerous occasions to inform him of the effect of his behavior. It sounds like again, he is blaming her for the relationship not working out. While this guy sounds like a creep to me, Ouchhh... I do give him credit not only writing to the site (he did come here after all), but for also highlighting that women need to do a 'better' job of communicating with men. That's not to say that we don't TRY OUR HARDEST, but that perhaps men need specific words told to them and specific limits set. While she may have made every effort to do this in her way, perhaps it was not what would have worked best for him. In that regard, hitting him w/ a 2x4 upside the head may not have worked either. This person needs to accept responsibility for their own behavior and be the strong man they consider themselves to be. Each and every person tries their hardest, but it's impossible to know what - for whatever reason - you don't know! Your energy is better spent improving yourself than analyzing the weaknesses of others. It will keep your blood pressure lower.
B1: Submit S1Hi Everyone, I understand that we victims shouldn't get stuck in rage, that it's not a good place, that we're compromising our integrity, etc.. I take full responsibility for allowing myself to be abused in the past (and yes, my relationship is ancient history). Keep in mind that many of us victims allowed ourselves to be "not allowed" to be mad, (we suppressed our anger because if we got mad, they got madder) so it's kind of a new emotion and we have to learn to adjust the barometer appropriately. You bet! Parenthetically, anger is a "new emotion" for angry types too. Anger is a signal that something is wrong; that's all. It takes skill to learn to listen to it's message and use that message constructively. However, (just a question) because I still insist that abusers take their own responsibility me too! - is there a level of typical abuser behavior in this initial post where the author is perceiving our victim support as a personal "attack" and has effectively shifted blame back to us victims? I think you are way off base and trying to force a round peg in an oval hole. The overwhelming emotion in the writer's note is frustration. He says the why, why, why stuff in sheer frustration. Forcing us to self- analyze? "Forcing" you? Are we stuck in rage or just being firm? You are stuck at least in anger, if not in rage. Tip: There is a problem when you misinterpret emotion as you did here. You are so preoccupied with blame shift and being forced, you "see" it even where it doesn't exist or is peripheral to the topic. Your vision is limited because you can't tell the difference between when someone really is angry and attacking and when they are something else. I'm interested in learning - what's the difference? Being firm is simply not allowing yourself to be hurt; and you should not allow yourself to be hurt. Rage / anger stuckedness is when you throw in the added dimension of anger to the firmness. In other words, the goal is to be firm without being angry. Apples and oranges... If the house is on fire and we tell the victim to GET OUT, are we being mean to the fire? Poor analogy for this. GET OUT can be firm and effective. GET OUT from you stinking, lousy &(%I$ fire adds nothing and detracts from your integrity. Or is the fire just hazardous? Should we be not mean to the fire and let the thick-headed victim burn? Do you see how you went askew on this one? IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER. Right. Yes, men are abused just as women...I've expressed the same support to both... and it does takes two to tango - but here's the catch: victim responsibility (our side of the tango) is in ACCEPTING blame and abuse rather than getting out... Right. You need to learn never, ever to accept blame and abuse. but often in the abuser's eyes the victim's side of the tango is that you are the "cause" of the initial problem. Garbage. We know that. So, if the abuser wants to think it's the victim's fault, what do you care? Let him or think the moon is made of green cheese for all you care. All you are interested in is getting away from abuse. No thank you fire! All the time. This is the ultimate dilemma that we face. It is only a dilemma if you are hell bent on changing the other person's opinion/mind/thinking. Now who is trying to control? We intuitively know we have some level of responsibility...but their perception of our responsibility is different than what it really is. Their perception of your responsibility doesn't matter... Your perception of your responsibility does; this is your power! I guess it's just that we victims in recovery need a brick wall to fall on top of our heads to "get it". So we drop the brick wall on our victim peers...we don't want to see them go through what we went through. And guess what, much of the time it works in helping our peers to recognize abuse, so I feel good about that. You feel vindicated and supported in your anger. That makes your ego feel good. It does nothing for your integrity. Think about it... Hot topic, LHW
B1: Submit S1To PJM From Atypical - No I never felt any glee at any time after the abuse started. I suppose I am atypical because he is the one who left - much easier to start a new relationship then to stop being abusive. After all, why face the fact that you've been behaving horribly when you can easily pretend otherwise to someone who barely knows you? I maintain that the guy who wrote in has a bad attitude. Complaining about "Why I don't like recovering victims" doesn't seem like much of a way to grow up and stop being an abuser..... Atypical: you are trying to change the opinion/mind/whatever of the writer. You are getting all worked up that you don't like his position. Why? You don't have to like his position. Simply don't make it your position. It's not worth your energy to fret over this other person. Accept what is and change that within you that you can change (like your need to change him.) Am I making sense? You'll be happier.
This is a great thread; but it's getting late. Thanks for all the wonderful and provocative posts. I'll be back... Dr. Irene
B1: Submit S1Just a few thoughts, based on my experience: (1) The letter says, "they almost uniformly admit that this bad behavior had been going on for years." In my case, it took a therapist handing me the first Patricia Evans book to get me to REALIZE that it had been going on. At that point I KNEW I HAD BEEN ABUSED, but although it was brought up in therapy, neither my husband or our therapist believed it. (Sad, but common.) I was angry, but felt I shouldn't be angry--after all, look at all his problems. I spent a lot of time trying to "get past my anger." That's why you are so angry now; you denied your very real and very appropriate anger for so long. You are now learning to use anger as a signal, which is all it is - as opposed as a vehicle of expressing frustration, which is what you've hated about your abusive partner! In other words, everybody's goal is to talk about your frustration rather than act it out; to talk about specifically what angers you - and not put up with any abuse at all - whether your partner hears you or not. (2) My husband has never really admitted that he has been abusive. (He can't admit ANY mistakes of any type.) However, he switched from overtly verbally abusive to passively aggressive crazy-making controlling when he found out I wouldn't tolerate the verbal abuse anymore. Unfortunately, this is typical. I was back at point 1--being abused, but not recognizing it. Feeling bad, not knowing why. After all, the abuse had stopped, right? Nope. Someone (with a capital "S") placed the 2nd Patricia Evans book in front of me on the sale table at the bookstore, and my hand reached for it while my mind said, "You aren't being verbally abused anymore." SURPRISE! Wow! Angry all over again! (3) I began reading about boundaries and trying to change myself. At this point, I wasn't strong enough to really try to set boundaries, but I started focusing on me--not him. (Having a therapist point out that I was still trying to change him or expect change helped.) The anger turned into resolve. (4) Somehow, over the past few months, I've become detached from it all. I may feel annoyed with my husband's behavior, but I realize that he is the way he is, and that I have choices, so if I'm going to be angry at someone, I have to include myself. I don't want to be angry at me, and I don't want to be angry at him. Most of the time I accomplish that. I think that the prayer is actually starting to get answered: I am now accepting the things I cannot change (him), changing the things I can (myself), and gaining the wisdom to know the difference. It's sad when I finally see that yes, I can't change everything--I'll never have a marriage that involves partnership and compromise. Everything has to be his way. I'll never get respect, or have my needs acknowledged, let alone met. He can't do it or has no reason to do it since you accept where he is. (5) Someday soon, when I get all my ducks in a row (gather all the paperwork, get legal advice, etc.) I'll drop the bombshell, or sandbag, or whatever. It is only going to be a surprise because for the past two years my husband has basically been sticking his fingers in his ears, the way little kids do when they don't want to hear what a parent has to say. He doesn't want to hear anything that will damage his fragile self-esteem or upset the world he has created--the one in which I am to blame for all of his problems. The victims who aren't afraid to speak up about abuse often find that the abuser denies that it's going on or blames the victim--then is surprised by her leaving. Yes. Very correct. Yes, I emotionally left the relationship long ago. How many times do you let the guy in front of you in line step back and step on your toe before you move back to a safe distance? Emotionally leaving the relationship seems to me to be healthier than being co-dependently involved with an abuser. Yes. At least you are not engaging. Although my husband did complain about my not being "affectionate" (and meet his needs in my usual co-dependent way) he didn't see that as a wake-up call to change. He doesn't see ANYTHING as a wake-up call to change because that would mean admitting that he's not perfect. Which, ironically, is exactly what he must do in order to adopt a healthier direction. It takes too much energy to live with someone who is trying to tear you down, however subtly. Remember the old Star Treks, where they had to put up the force shield? Well, living like that is tiring, and I'm not willing to do it any more. I now trust myself, and Creation enough to believe that I can make it through whatever unpleasant things happen (and I know that things will hit the fan when I file) and I will come out on the other side a better, stronger, person. And that may be when he wakes up. P.S. It strikes me as I look back at this that this is like the stages people go through when faced with illness or death: denial, anger, bargaining, (is there another one? Yes. Can't remember it either...) and finally acceptance. I am finally at acceptance (although I sometimes re-visit the other stages for a few minutes). That's OK. I think I HAD to focus on the past for a while and get angry enough to get the strength to change. The anger was around for a long time, but it just isn't here anymore. I didn't work on getting rid of it--I just switched from focusing on the past to focusing on the present and the future and on what I COULD change. You grew healthier. Good for you!
B1: Submit S1In some ways I understand what this person is saying. I never understood I was being abused. My situation was not one of verbal abuse but of manipulation, control, and total self centeredness of my spouse. That is abuse! He told me he loved me and was physically affectionate, but didn't like my family and friends, couldn't handle an opinion that was not the same as his. He thought he was a good husband because he didn't run around, drink or do drugs. I just shut down, I didn't express opinions, I didn't disagree with him. When I did get angry I felt guilty and couldn't talk with him about it. By the time I became aware that I was emotionally abused, I had had an affair and was not interested in trying to save my marriage. I never said the word "abuse" to my ex-husband, never felt strong enough to. But I filed for a divorce, struggled for a year to get custody of my children, fought in court. But I never talked to him about emotional abuse. I feel guilty about that and I also wonder why I couldn't. My guess is that had you uttered those words, even if you felt them to be true, you knew you were totally unable to defend yourself. So, I think, you decided just not to bother. Which is OK. I also am confused about my anger. I can't seem to feel anger toward him. He took advantage of me our whole marriage. He has done and said, in court, some terrible lies about me and I always seem to find excuses for him. I don't understand and I guess I am concerned that maybe I still can't admit my feelings. Or, feel guilty about having them. Don't. Anyway mainly I wanted to say that I wish I could have been strong enough to understand my situation when there was still some desire on my part to make it work. I'm sure my ex husband feels he was never given a chance. After 20 years of marriage I just said I wanted a divorce and never tried to make it work. Still Guilty Please stop. Sometimes there is just too much water under the bridge. If you know it will be futile to try to defend yourself, you simply get out - in any way you can. You did the best you could; some partner's are just too strong or argumentative to argue against.
B1: Submit S1LHW, You wrote of the abuser, "Their perception of our responsibility is different than what it really is." If you read my earlier post, you'll see what I think is an example of this. I acknowledged to my husband my responsibility in our problems, and I am actively working on myself, trying to fix the "holes" in me. His response was that I am NOT taking responsibility. I can't help but feel that his idea of my responsibility is that I have CAUSED him to feel all of the bad things that he feels; therefore, if he attacks me, he is only defending himself. Yuk. (He says that this is what he is doing, i.e., "When I feel attacked, I will defend myself!" Problem is, my very existence seems to be an attack at times!) I would be "taking responsibility" if I would admit that my failure as a wife is the cause of our problems. YUK! That's not taking responsibility; that's taking the blame! Now you're down the wrong path. He has said that if I would be "different," he wouldn't say such hateful things. Garbage. He's not taking responsibility for his actions. And you can be sure that by "different," he DOES NOT mean more assertive about enforcing boundaries! I hear you. You can do whatever you do. You can be positively awful. That's your problem. Your awful behavior does not give him license to behave poorly. Now both of you have problems. In response to my description of this scenario, Dr. Irene said, "He is projecting his perfectionism onto you." Does this mean that nothing I do is good enough; therefore he will not accept what I am doing as "taking responsibility?" If so, that's no big surprise! Any ideas as to what she means? Yes. "She" (i.e., me) means that he has unrealistic expectations about how a partner, a husband or a wife, should perform. His impossible expectations define what he expects of himself and what he wants from you - which is perfect (perfectly impossible, to be more accurate). Instead of accepting the goodies that you do give, he focuses on the aspects of perfection he expects that you do not give. He feels cheated because he has gone out of his way to give you the things he thinks he should give you (whether you want them or not). Unfortunately, he never questions the rational basis of his expectations. Nor does he question whether or not he has the right to expect what he expects! He gives blood whether you want it or not. In exchange, he expects you to bend in the direction he dictates. Who appointed him God? He is out of line and crossing your boundaries. You have absolutely no obligation to behave according to his expectations, no matter how much he chooses to give you - whether you want it or not. Becky
B1: Submit S1LHW- You articulated more clearly what I was trying to communicate in my early post. Also, Dr. Irene seemed to imply that I was responding angrily- huh? I do not LIKE the original letter but I feel that my reply was calm and non-angry- I was seeking serious clarification as to what the letter-writer really wants! I was also explaining my point of view. I don't know if that qualifies as being defensive and that's why it appeared I was angry, but at that time I don't feel that I was. I interpreted anger because you imposed stuff on the writer; you put words in his mouth. Also, isn't interpreting natural, healthy anger as an attack a very abusive state of mind? You missed the point and confused frustration with blaming.. I've been told over and over that I must accept my BF's non-abusive anger, but in some cases, recovering abusers still cannot tolerate any anger at them, and will interpret that as an attack. Well, they've got to get over that. It seems like the original letter writer is wanting victims to stop ALL forms of anger. I don't read that at all. Is that abusive behavior? You are off on a tangent. Both victim-types and abusive-types need to learn how to express healthy anger without being stuck in blame, but also need to learn how to deal with other people's anger appropriately. Yes. Feeling attacked by other people's justified anger doesn't seem to fit that model to me. The only one who created your feeling of being attacked - was YOU. As for the rage stage and being stuck in blame and all that, I really feel that I went through that stage, big time. I also feel that a few months ago, I woke up and am now taking responsibility and doing what I can to act with personal integrity, but I feel there is a difference between being a shrieking stuck-in-rage victim and still (non-angrily, or at least non-acting out angrily) point out what seems to be abusive behavior. I don't doubt that you are taking more responsibility, but you are not entirely there yet. (Which is OK.) You put words in the writer's mouth that didn't exist. You did not see his post for what it was: sheer frustration and anger at being ganged up on. (In this case, the behavior of the original letter writer.) Can I say "to me he seems like whatever" without being a stuck-in-rage angry victim? Yes. But in this case, you misread his letter by inserting your own stuff... Also, for the record, it was "The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing The Patterns of Intimate Relationships" Good book. that broke through the blame stage for me and encouraged me to take responsibility. I highly recommend it. -Satokogirl, finding this subject interesting and really doesn't THINK she's angry right now... :)
B1: Submit S1For Atypical: I was guessing your partner had left you, rather than the other way round. I'll make another wild guess: it could be the reason you never got stuck in rage is that you haven't gotten as far as rage... *yet*. OK, you're angry now, so maybe you're there. Besides, all that depression was only anger turned inwards. Now you're turning some of it outwards. Curiously, you could be in the same position as the original writer, only on the other side of the fence. He's asking why victims can't be "fair" and avoid blindsiding their abusers. But if victims knew enough to do that, they wouldn't be victims in the first place. :) Sad as it is, that ain't the way the universe works, and he's going to have to get past railing at the universe. You're asking why the writer didn't display more empathy for his wife. But if he'd been as empathetic as all that, he wouldn't have been an abuser in the first place. There is empathy towards the wife; evident in other correspondence. It's also possible to see depression as a way of trying to attract back a partner who's left. But that's a futile hope if he doesn't have much empathy toward your depression, and an enormously frustrating one for you. So at least you're better off being angry right now. There are concerns that others might help with. If there were more publicity about abuse phenomena, more victims and abusers might get help earlier, or avoid passing the bug to their kids. It would also be nice to see a higher percentage of success stories here about handling abusers. Write in Recovering Victims! Then again, as the original writer would say, it may also be too late by the time many victims find the board, so there is a majority that's already near the "leaving" stage. Other helpful things would include equal participation by male victims (to correct the writer's perception of a "conspiracy") I'd love that; just fewer men identify their victim status and log on than do women., and more discussion of a "victim's" own role: "How I interact with my partner." Oh, I'd really love that! Victims willing to take responsibility for their part in the dance are invited to let me know! None of that, unfortunately, seems to be the way the universe works either. Still, while I deplore with PJM our lack of advocates for staying together, it isn't true that we have none. Right. In fact, although this isn't aimed at abusive relationships, one such advocate addresses the precise concern of the original writer here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks5.html - Gordon Thanks Gordon. Weiner-Davis' book, Divorcebusting is excellent.
B1: Submit S1I've been visiting this site for many, many months, always hoping to find more insights into both abusers and victims. That's exactly what I hope to accomplish here. This letter, and Dr. Irene's responses, really summarize so many messages, so very, very well. My situation was at work, which is a big reason why I've refrained till now, from ever submitting a post. I'm out of the abusive situation now, have been for many months, but still have quite a bit of guilt and shame. Almost 100% of the people in the project I was part of have left the project, including the boss, all in less than 24 months time. An incredible waste. I'm sorry... But please, do all you can to drop the guilt and shame. Useless, destructive emotions for non-sociopathic types. What strikes me as I read the dialogue here between the writer and Dr. Irene, and many previous messages, are the following: - The victim and abuser do really seem to have different realities; I can't come up with a better explanation than the one that Patricia Evans discusses in her books (I've read them both, and they were a lifeline for me for a period of time; I'm so grateful to her). Book 1; Book 2. I would very much like to see more abusers write because I would very much like to be able to understand them more. Yes! Abusers are a very misunderstood group. Other than a few really malicious souls, most abusers are simply narcissistic types who know no other way to feel OK about themselves. They are misguided. Just like victims, who think they can provide comfort for the abuser, are misguided. - Regarding victims: Dr. Irene, you hit the nail on the head when you wrote this: "You cheer it when you've had it after trying and trying and trying - cuz you are so, so, so ANGRY! And you finally feel validated... And, you are too fresh in your own recovery to take responsibility for your own anger, or your past inability to stop the abuse - because you didn't even know it was abuse - any more than the typical non-sociopathic abuser thought he/she were doling out abuse!" This is true. Both are doing the very best they can. - Why do victims stay? Let me tell you why I did, and it's taken me many, many months to find these words: - I needed to feel accepted - I needed to feel I belonged somewhere - It felt good to think I was contributing. - It felt good to think I was making a difference. Yes... He needed you. - When my boss "got ugly", for a long time, I attributed it to the stress of the job. (Codependent making excuses for other rather than focusing on the pain that is being inflicted.) He pushed himself terribly hard, we were badly understaffed. But as time whet on, well, I think what happened was I developed one HUMONGOUS case of denial. He was very talented, I came to respect and admire him. I think this was also why it took so long for me to break through the denial. Yes. You looked to him for validation, appreciation, esteem supplies, etc. - The first 4 things I listed above, were very, very, important to me. I did not want to give them up. So I hung on to hope, hoping he would get better, I guess, and I hung on, and hung on. Hope is the last thing I held on to. And once in a blue moon, hope works out. I think the need to feel accepted and the need to feel I belonged go way back to my own childhood, and that is probably why I got so hooked, and why it hurt as much as it did. Yes. When you look for validation outside the self (the only real validation), expect this type of stuff. To the extent that the abuser and victim are so lost, so clueless as to how to help themselves, much less STOP their self-defeating behavior, I think both have no other option but to stop blaming one another, take responsibility for themselves, and forgive each other. That's the only sane option. Unfortunately too many take other insane options... This one sentence that Dr. Irene wrote, is worth zillions: "Just know that in most cases, your abuser knew as much as you did: not much." How sad, how funny. But if true: just think of what it means, if this sentence is really true, and I think it is. - Lee Oh Lee, excluding your malicious type, it is soooo true...
B1: Submit S1To Gordon From Atypical, Reading your post made me realize that - one reason I keep coming back to this site is that I am able to get angry at other people's abusers even when I don't get angry at my own. Vicarious abuse anger...it's a start! It at least is very brief change from depression. I can't agree that I am just on the other side of the fence from the guy who wrote in. Take a another look; you are closer than you think. I also can't begin to imagine depression as a way to attract someone back? For some, it is that. For most, it is not. Depression is a physical illness that many people are biologically predisposed to. If you are depressed, get some professional help for it. Medication and therapy make the best combination in my experience. Besides I do not want my ex back. He would only continue the abuse. I am baffled that you think we do not hear enough about the "victim's role" here - or maybe I don't know what you mean? What I have read is most typically "I try harder to please him - he abuses me. I try standing up for myself/ boundaries - he abuses me. I try whistling the Star spangled banner standing on my head - he abuses me...". I too think it would be great to hear from more male victims, they are certainly welcome. The writer is referring to the victim's taking responsibility for their participation in the abusive relationship. Most victims spend time complaining and feeling helpless and/or angry about their plight. Relatively few, like the poster above, recognize that some of the reasons they stay is because they hope to obtain validation, appreciation, etc.
B1: Submit S1The rage stage is something I understand very well. I seem to be stuck in it currently. Every time I think I have been able to conquer the current stage of rage, I get another load piled on. I end up starting over. Obviously, I don't have control of my anger at this point. I believe I probably need some professional help in order to deal with it. Great idea. Tip: It's OK to feel angry, rageful even. But you don't have to behave angrily. There is a difference between making angry accusations in an angry and self-righteous voice and calmly but firmly stating the specifics of what behaviors bothered you. I find myself abusing my abuser when it seems I can get away with it. Whether it is to vent or to simply even the score, I don't know, but whatever the reason, I DON'T LIKE MYSELF WHEN I DO IT! Exactly. There is a momentary high in the sense of power and vindication your ego feels, but your integrity suffers because somewhere deep down, you know you misbehaved. There is very little to feel positive about and I mostly feel like giving up, just don't know what to do next. The only thing you can do when your requests for the abuse to stop do not work is to remove yourself from a toxic environment. The cycle is never-ending, build-up, blow-up, make-up... How do I get past the anger and try to salvage whatever is left? I must set boundaries and look after myself, but he won't let me. You don't need his permission or approval. Nor do you need to convince him; he doesn't have to agree with you. If he doesn't respect your position, you have no sane choice other than to back off. Nothing I ever do is good enough. I never used to blow like I do now, I used to be the calm, cool, and collected one, but I can't seem to hang on anymore. Don't. Listen to your body; it's trying to talk to you. Should I see someone re: my anger/rage? Yes. Start here. Leave? Shut up? Put it all back in it's box, lock it up, shove it in it's closet, and board up the door? No. That's a big no no. AGAIN? I've tried everything, reasoning, arguing, crying, trying, ignoring, reading, counseling, begging, and now I can't think of anything else that might work. I am trying to just concentrate on me and what I need right now. Any ideas??? Yes. It is likely that nothing will work. Accept that. Focus on you and what you have to do to save yourself from this constant headache.
B1: Submit S1Dear Atypical: You're not really "atypical." This is what so many victims have said. "I can get angry at other people's abusers when I can't get angry at my own." Let's switch the wording just a tiny bit. "I can sympathize with and get angry *on behalf of* other victims when I can't do the same for myself." Stand aside from yourself, and see yourself as a real person, just the way you see everyone else around you--all except yourself. Then give yourself a hug. Yeah! You are important enough to merit your own empathy. In fact, you are the MOST important person you know... You can't imagine depression as a way to attract someone back? I could be wrong of course. I don't imagine you see yourself as attractive when you're depressed. But once again, try imagining someone else, like your ex, as depressed instead. Would you then feel the need to rush in and help him? If that's true--and I might be wrong--you see depression as attractive. Just in other people, not in yourself. But an abuser isn't going to respond to depression in you the same way you do in him. Some people use depression or suicidal threats as manipulation to gain power in a relationship. While this may be a component, Atypical strikes me as truly depressed and low in self esteem - as opposed to manipulative. Treat it! Depression is a treatable physical illness. What I meant about the "victim's role" is that I've got an impression of hearing more about what abusers *do*, and less about what victims do themselves. Yes. What victims feel, yes, but less about what they do. (That might be just my impression too, of course. Then we share the same impression. ) I say this is "part of the universe" because victims do see themselves as "passive," "responding" at best rather than "acting," and feeling rather than doing. Yet to me it's problematic in a couple of ways. Yes. Sometimes it can cover up what somebody who sees themselves as a victim might be contributing to the conflict BINGO!; though I'm not accusing anyone of that here. Victims don't get into self-righteous indignation to mask their contribution. They go there because they feel so powerless and out of control of their lives. Victims don't take their power. They take responsibility for the welfare of others, but not responsibility for their own lives. They hope the person they cater to will do that for them. All this is unempowering stuff. The other respect is the one I mentioned. People handle abusers, or try to, in different ways. Some ways are better than others. I think it would be helpful to hear more about what victims do, and what works better or not so well. There are a couple pages on that here and here. I agree that more of this stuff would be useful. And sometimes, yes, "I please him; he abuses me. I whistle the Star Spangled Banner; he abuses me." There's a lesson in that. It may be that nothing will stop someone abusing you. Nothing, that is, except... to do nothing. To detach completely. But it's the last thing many people think of. Because most victims of guilty of wanting things to work out so badly, they are willing to sell themselves short to give the benefit of the doubt. Over and over and over. Victims need to take responsibility for their welfare here and be willing to detach emotionally and or physically if their relationship hurts them. Take care. - Gordon
B1: Submit S1Oh, these are great topics since there are several issues being discussed simultaneously. I briefly wanted to address the poster who expressed they are not really angry, just depressed. My understanding is that depression IS anger, but anger that has been turned inward. After my Mother committed suicide I spent 40 minutes on the phone with her therapist who explained this concept to me. That was Freud's hypothesis. The research doesn't really support it, but, even though I am a behaviorist (and we are supposedly at war), clinically, I think the guy was onto something... I cannot say it applies to everyone, but it seems to me that there must be those who (whether consciously or subconsciously) are not comfortable with their anger or are not really in touch with it and become exceedingly apathetic in an effort to deal with it in a more "passive" or covert manner? Yet the anger is indeed present on some level regardless of the manner in which it manifests itself. By Gosh! I think she's got it! Anyway, I have been here almost a year now and I have participated in Ouchhh, I Am Responsible, the Yak board, this board, etc. To be honest, from my personal perspective, this specific board is just about the only one where I have witnessed a great deal of input to the effect of, "GET OUT!" The sad paradox is that all too often, the victim has to stop trying so hard; the victim too often needs to get into the mindset of leaving before his or her victim gets the message. Angry people tend not to "hear" the complaints. They minimize them. On Ouchhh so many of the victims seem to be at the stage where they are aware they are being abused, they either have or are still trying to resolve it, but nothing has changed for months on end. In which case, many know that the only other alternative is to leave since you cannot get blood from a stone. Right. Yet, they are not prepared to end the relationship at this time, so to tell them to just get out does not go over well at all. They are more interested in changing reality than in changing the only thing they can change: themselves. Ouchhh is for people in early recovery when the codependency is still so strong, a warm body is worth selling the self out for. They are angry, in pain, some are in denial, and they are not ready to move on, so I disagree that the emphasis is on leaving. It depends where you go. My typical advice is that leaving may be the only hope for making the relationship work. In fact, the entire reason so many have remained for as long as they have is due to their Codependent urges to "fix" others, a learned hopefulness, self-blame/anger and various other factors, but it's rarely due to lack of trying! Yes. They try too hard. One must strive never to care about another's recovery more than they care about it. And how many times is a person supposed to try? Sometimes becoming really mad at the other person is just what is needed to move beyond that. Although, no, one would not want to get stuck there. Anger is a phase most recovering victims go through. The only time I have been offended by the, "You go girl!" Is when a victim explains that they were so mad at their abuser that they retaliated by yelling, name calling, hitting, et al and there was periodically an underlying tone of, "Good for you! You showed him/her!" That encouragement to act out makes me wince, I don't think it's healthy. It's not. I see the "You go girl!" complaints as a metaphor that echoes the majority of visitors: abused women. When these women support each other and their early recovery anger slips through, male victims and angry people feel (are) ganged up on. It's a numbers game. I'd like it to stop. However, overall all I have seen is a bunch of people doing their best to comfort each other which I think is wonderful. The ones who are stuck in their anger need to get unstuck when the time is right for them. I have tried in the past to help with that, but realized it's not my place. I was very clearly told by one woman that she "owns" her feelings and has the right to be as mad as she wants for as long as she wants, and I have to respect that - although I do not have to be witness to it either. That's what the delete button is for :) Terri Are you the Terri I know and love?
B1: Submit S1In Response to "Victim Think" I discovered last December (after a lot of therapy and reading the Patricia Evans book) that I was in a long term (20+ year marriage) abusive situation. I changed my behavior, which triggered an "incident" of being verbally blasted and said to him, "You are verbally abusing me and I want you to stop it now." His response was "That's ridiculous ! I'll show you what verbal abuse is..." and of course did not stop. I was trapped in a car with him out in the middle of nowhere, otherwise I would have exited the scene. As time went on, we went to therapy and he said he felt at first like he'd been labeled a criminal-verbal abuser and a marked man, etc. Then, as time went by, he became remorseful and I received promises that it would never happen again, etc. I had filed for divorce by this time and he begged me to change my mind, stating that he had changed, it would never happen again, but when I said I was going to go through with this, he yelled at me for hours, saying how mean, cruel, and selfish a person I was - along with some other slams about my physical appearance. I asked him as best I could (to get a word in) about what he was doing and he said, "I'm just venting here." So he didn't stop when asked to stop and he didn't recognize his behavior as hurtful and damaging, even after being made aware . Yes. I know it sounds strange, but he really was just venting his outrage... With absolutely no awareness that even though he "didn't really mean it," and he can't possibly fathom how you could experience it otherwise. He'd better learn. My point is that although it logically sounds easy to say to a spouse "stop this, this is unacceptable" it does not always mean that it will happen especially if the "abuser" doesn't recognize their behavior as hurtful or abusive. Correct. It is much easier to do if these "rules" have been established in a therapist's office. Relationships are tricky things and it does "take two;" one to talk and the other to listen. Also it is very hard for people in healthy relationships to understand what happens within the cycle of abuse. Yes. I know that it is taking me an great deal of time to change myself and it has nothing to do with intelligence or logic. It has to do with love and understanding towards both the victim and abuser. Good Luck to You, Barbie And you...
B1: Submit S1When I first felt rage, I asked my psychiatrist to hospitalize me for my and my spouse's own safety. You see, I didn't know until afterwards that what I'd experienced was actually "rage". The second time I felt rage, I knew what it was and what had caused it. The third time I felt rage, I determined to leave. I'd talked myself hoarse with my spouse. I cajoled him into a few therapy sessions and my therapist talked to him. I told him point blank that if he didn't work with me, I wanted a divorce. Nothing got through to him; and I continued to think somehow it was either all my fault or all my imagination. Why the codependent needs to learn to trust his or her feelings... Your rage was telling you that your life was unbearable. After all, no therapist had ever laid any responsibility at his doorstep. BUT when my experiences were finally validated, identified as domestic violence in general and verbal/emotional abuse specifically, my eyes were finally opened and I knew that my gut feeling had been true for years before my head caught up with it. Amazing, huh? I used my rage to get organized, get a lawyer, get all the information I could, and then leave. Instead of whining and wishing for change, you heard your anger's message. You used the energy your anger mobilized constructively. I am certain my spouse is still in the dark about "why" I left. Some men just don't get it. Not even after 20 years. Unfortunately. I did my reading; I knew about boundaries; I even stood up to him on occasion. But when you live day in and day out with someone whose goal in life is to systematically tear your soul and your self-esteem to shreds, you seldom have the strength to fight back as often as you would like to. Right. I might point out that it is unlikely that your husband's experienced motivation or intention was to tear you to shreds. In all likelihood, he just felt it was your job to "care" for him. I still hurt tremendously. I cannot imagine another intimate relationship with a man. The slightest courtesy can reduce me to tears (why is this stranger nice to me when my spouse wasn't?). Because your husband knew no better. Rebuilding trust will take a long time. But I would still cheer on any woman who wants to leave, even if it is a temporary separation while each spouse seeks counseling and knowledge; more and more I believe that it is only coming home to an empty house that gets the message through to a man: you are in deep trouble, mister, and you'd better get your act together. Unfortunately, you are correct.
B1: Submit S1ok. I've left the abusive relationship and for a while I was really angry. To me it was good and motivating anger. I feel as though I've worked through it and it's not boiling under the surface. Good! However, when I talk about the abusive times I still get angry and emotional. Is this normal and is it ok that I am no longer actively dealing with it? When it comes up I acknowledge it and then move on. Is this healthy? I don't feel as though I am stuffing it, but I don't feel the need to act on it in any way either. I don't have enough information to answer your questions. You may still be processing your painful experience; this takes time... I would worry less about that than I would about not repeating your past. Thanks.
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