Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2005. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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May 02, 2005
12:13 PM

Thanks Doc, I had already figured out that I need to separate myself emotionally from what he does to get reactions out of me. I have made a list of what I will not 'expect' from him and am trying to stick with it. It really helps to be able to let go of all the little resentments. However, last night he was getting all cuddly with me and wanted sex. I said I want to talk a little bit. Anyways I asked him if he had 'thought' about how it makes me feel about his going out until all hours of the morning and not calling me. He said that he does it to piss me off, because he thinks that I don't care. I calmly said if you think I don't care, then what makes you think it will piss me off? I asked him if he thought that was proper behaviour for a forty year old husband and father of three, he said yes. I said your friends to that to their wives? he said yes. I said then why do you try to piss me off with it? I said I'm a good mother and good at my job and a good wife. He said your not a good wife, I said well currently no, because I'm not doing my wifely duty, but I have been a good wife. And he said no, you haven't. Of course, I lost it, stood up and said, well if you think this is being a bad wife, you'll see just how bad of a wife I can be....stepped out of the bedroom and closed the door, I slept on my son's bed. I cant believe I tried to talk to him....again.....and...he got to me....again.... Petunia aka Nina Ouch! He did it again!

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May 02, 2005
03:16 PM

It looks like no matter what you say he is determined to make you look and feel bad and be the bad person. Do you want a real partner- is that what you are still expecting of him?, or do you want to do what you can to not have him push your buttons and just survive the relationship for now. If you are expecting him to own up to not being a good husband or father I think you will probably be waiting for a very long time. I would go with the Docs advice if you are looking for a way to survive for now. Disengage as much as you can to keep yourself from being manipulated, but realize that this guy isn't going to change and be a better person. One other thing to think about, the absence of abuse does not a good relationship make. A relationship worth having isn't just about not experiencing the crazyness, it's also about being with someone who actually supports you, is concerned about you, is in your corner so to speak. It helps sometimes to clarify things by raising the bar on your own expectations.

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May 02, 2005
08:47 PM

Nina- reading this was like reading my own story. Thank you for sharing. I left my husband a week ago and he and my mother have been trying to convince me that I have just misunderstood the last 10 years. When I left I just wanted to dance because I felt so much relief. Yes it was hard on the kids but I asked my self the same? Is this what I want them to learn? We are doing much better and so will you. -karen

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May 02, 2005
09:25 PM

Hi Nina, I thought it was interesting that in your follow up post you said your husband said you weren't a good wife, and you said you weren't doing wifely duties, and yet in your original post you mention that you are not interested sexually. From a woman who has been there, this is definitely a problem . . . perhaps if your husband cared more about the husband he is being instead of the wife you are not, your problems would be solved. I recognize the problems with talking to him, and getting him to understand but my comment for him would be . . . "You say I'm not a good wife, did you ever think that my behavior has anything to do with the husband you are?" Perhaps if he was capable of realizing that his "husbandly duty" is something that is lacking, than there would be hope. All the best, Ana

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May 03, 2005
09:01 AM

Nina - I can totally understand how difficult it is when dealing with a husband like yours. I have wasted too much energy and time trying to "get him to understand" how his words/actions are hurtful......and it only makes him angrier, makes me more frustrated and he does it again and again. Detaching or disengaging works for me....I just leave the situation, (read a book, sit outside on a chair and enjoy the weather, do some gardening). This will frustrate him that no real reaction occurs (as there has in the past), but eventually he grumbles and walks away........its like dealing with a child, kind of. Eventually, he will get tired of not getting a reaction..... I have found alot of comfort in understanding what is going on with my husband......because this kind of abusive thinking is different to understand for those of us who are the recipients....."Codependent No More: How To Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself. ", "Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men " "The Verbally Abusive Relationship", etc. But the most I have learned (especially now that I am physically separated from him as well in MY own home) is that I have my OWN personal power. I have my own choices, my own wishes, my own everything. I can control my day. He does not. I am in counseling for the years of verbal/emotional abuse trying to get my self esteem back. Maybe that would help you too, my company offers a program called EAP (employee assistance program) and I have great counseling for only $20 a visit! I wish you well and hope that you find some peace and joy in your life soon. Its a long hard road, but you have others here who understand what you are living with and we are all here to listen! Good luck, Nina!

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May 03, 2005
11:26 AM

Hi Nina You sound SO smart and like you have SO much to offer. YOU DESERVE MUCH BETTER! Your husband is a toddler, emotionally. The pouting, the going out to punish you, the irrational determination to be right no matter what.... You deserve a husband who is an adult, who can empathize, respect you, and be a partner to you - husband who doesn't treat you like Mommy, and throw tantrums and pout and expect your life to revolve around him. Dump him! You deserve SO MUCH MORE in a husband!

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May 03, 2005
12:30 PM

HAHA, Oh my gosh you guys, thanks a lot, you know I'm not 150% that I'm going to dump him. I'm actually looking for less justification, its amazing when you start to realize there is really nothing you van do, and how can you be blamed for something you cant do? Make any sense? Yes. You have entered the process of getting ready. Sadly I KNOW I will be happier with him out of the house, I KNOW how I feel when he isn't around, I feel a lot better. xoxo Nina

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May 04, 2005
10:56 PM

Nina, I can completely understand your dilemma. Your story sounds exactly like my own life story only mine has been going on for 15 years and I just figured out what the problem was (everyone from my husband to his family and even my own family has completely denied he has any problems). He is a police officer, he is darn near perfect. NOT!! When my husband and I were first dating I went to counseling because I thought I had the problem because that's what he told me. All of our problems were because of me. The counselor asked me what was going on with him and I said that he says there is nothing wrong with him. He is normal. She scoffed at that and said that those are the ones you have to look out for. At the time I took offense to that and thought that she was not trying very hard to help me help my family. If I had only listened to her maybe I would not be here 15 years later wondering where my self esteem and self respect went. I just told my husband the other day that I just do not care anymore what happens. I do not care about the house, money, myself. The only thing I have deep feelings for are my children and I am beginning to wonder how much this has affected them since I do have three boys. My husband seems willing to change, but that only depends on his "mood". If he is afraid I will leave him he will want to talk about this and deal with it, but as soon as I reassure him that I wont leave he is right back to his same abusive behavior. Girl, I can understand your situation completely. It is too bad that there is not an online support group for women (or men) who may need someone to communicate and support each other regarding this very serious matter. April

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May 05, 2005
10:51 PM

Nina, My sympathies. Your husband sounds a lot like mine. Just a variation on the same sad theme--a twelve year old emotionally in a middle aged body, which actually is pretty frightening if you think about it! Just a word about how the abuse affects the kids. For years my husband had me brain washed that we should "stay together for the kids". Meanwhile he was beginning to abuse our oldest daughter pretty badly. I have read in some of the literature on abuse that I have lately been doing that that is a common pattern--they abuse the oldest daughter. Anyway, it took me a horrific amount of time to gather the strength to leave him, years and years, (I actually had to tell him that I thought we would reconcile if he moved out--which was something of a lie, but it worked and he moved out.) Anyway, my oldest daughter is now truly blossoming. She came home from her first year of college and spent hours, unprompted by me, cleaning the house! She even cleaned my fridge carefully. I never knew she even knew how to clean. She also is treating her younger sister much better than she ever has before. I think she was mirroring or imitating the abuse she had witnessed since a young child. She had told me for years to "divorce him" if you can believe that. One of my friends said "it must have been really bad, as kids always want their parents to stay together, no matter what". Well, it was pretty bad. At last my ears are unstopped up, my eyes have been opened and I can SEE! It the best, most courageous thing I have ever done in my life. What I don't understand is the addiction we have with these men? What is that all about? Good luck.

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May 06, 2005
02:21 PM

I just want to say that I can indeed empathize with Nina. As I read her letter, there was much I could relate to from what I went through myself. Now that I have left the abuser, I've had a lot of people, perhaps well-meaning and perhaps not, tell me I should "give him another chance"... but I hate him. I'm sorry to say that I have hatred, I've always believed that it is very bad to hate, but right now, that is the only feeling I have for him. There is no way I would consider going back. Even though I have a lot of people against me, and I have a lot of troubles in my life as a result of leaving (IE: fighting to get my kids away from him coz he took them via ex-parte and got interim residency till the custody trial settles it; struggling to get educated enough to earn a living while barely surviving on Food Bank donations; etc...) I am ever so much more happy than I was while living under the control of the abuser. Heck, the words "I am happy" hadn't crossed my mind the whole time I was married to him. Yeah, yeah, you might ask, "Well why did you marry him then?" The answer is, "I DO NOT KNOW." I tried to make it work but it didn't work, it nearly killed me. I don't know if anything I've said here has been any help. Just sharing a bit of what I've been through. A very small bit.

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May 06, 2005
06:01 PM

Hi Nina, You ask yourself "Can I live like this forever?" That question finally got me out of my own long standing emotionally/verbally (some occasional minor physical stuff) abusive marriage. I projected myself forward into the future and saw myself as a 70 year old being screamed at for nothing. Then I saw him getting sick and dying (which I understand we all do some day!) and me being secretly glad, since he would have in all likelihood been yelling at me about nothing, perhaps the week before. (He does not do well when he is feeling ill, and takes it out on me, so that would be a quite likely scenario.) I felt as if my Higher Power were asking me "Do you want this to be your future?" I felt very certain that this would, in all likelihood, become my future if I stayed. I decided that God did not want me to live like this, and had better things in mind for me. Coming back from a week's trip with my daughter, he "greeted us" by yelling at us since he had to wait at the airport for us. Of course this was our fault, since we control the airlines, right? That was the last straw for me, after decades of abuse. I decided right then that it was over. It is a valid question to ask yourself. Abusers seem to live in an airless environment that does not support life. It is static and unchanging and dead. They try to "get by" , but never really seem to want to live. And you are lucky you can't sleep with him. I continued to be able to do that (although not very often) and I think it strengthened my sick attachment to him. So it is good that you are following your body's intuition. Your body is telling you something important. All the best. I can't give advice. You will know best what to do. Just don't wait as long as I did, is all I can say.

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May 08, 2005
11:00 AM

Nina, Your story sounds so much like my own...word for word! Yes, it was 'crazy making' as long as I'd engaged in the dance. Even in therapy, it felt like he was sucking me dry, not about creating solutions. Now I understand it was about his power issues, and all about making me wrong. After leaving the relationship, it took me couple of years of intense self education and therapy (new therapist) to understand the dance of a sociopathic/passive aggressive/power play with a charming, loving (?) man. That is, he was loving, charming and attentive as long he could get something he wanted - ego strokes, sex, whatever. He is the same with others, professionally and socially. Ultimately it is sad for him, lacking the ability for true intimate connection and give-and-take in a relationship of equals. Recovery from this situation, while it took awhile, has helped me turn away from other emotional manipulations, professionally and elsewhere. What a healthy growth process! Yes, it was painful, for both my children and me. Surprisingly, am finding that my social network is also changing. I had not expected that would happen. Some old friends are still close. But I no longer have the desire to interact with others (the manipulative nor the whiners). Dr. Irene, your website has been helpful. Thank you! Good Luck! Recovery is wonderful! Carol

Dear Nina, I'm glad to see your abuse awareness kick up a notch. Yes, your relationship is abusive. I am, happy for you that you are seeing things more clearly.

There is no rush. You don't have to leave to win a prize.

Your job is simply to understand what's going on and to see more clearly. Notice your husband's blame-game, and how you let him hook you emotionally. When you see clearly, you will make better choices.

Thank you dear readers for your advice and support. God bless all you guys out there! Dr. Irene, May 8, 2005. Happy Mother's Day!!!

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May 12, 2005
08:18 PM

I can't believe there are other women out there like me. I married my abuser late in life and I just don't want to take the time or energy to pack up and go. I have left abusive men before and it's just a pattern for me. I don't get hit and I'm not dumb enough to believe his putdowns. I just decided if I were widowed I'd have to do everything anyway. I pretend he's a very spoiled child thats used to getting his own way and ignore him. unfortunately, his new thing is not bathing more than twice a week. his breath would gag a maggot. I don't care. I don't go near him and we certainly don't do any thing together. I'm pleasant to him when he's pleasant to me and ignore him otherwise. He say's he tired of my disagreeing with him all the time and he's going to leave. I'm still waiting. Of course, he's Mr wonderful to every other women. I just tell them I'm very lucky. Maybe one of them will take off with him.(with that smell, I doubt it.) All of this came after 3 years of talking, pleading, screaming and finaly realizing, I CAN'T CHANGE HIM. I can only have my own life. And I do. I'ts great. I have a job that I am very much into, I can work as much as I like, part of my job is oral histories and I talk to and listen to fascinating people. HANG IN THERE VICTIMS. You will only be his victim as long as you want to be. Tess

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May 15, 2005
11:21 AM

I can relate to her on this. My husband and I been together for 11 years married for almost 6 years. We have a four years old son. Through out the relationship I thought his affection, repect and appreciation toward me would get better through time so I married him and after a year of marriage we had a baby boy. Well, nothing changed I was still working full time outside the home, taking care of a baby, paying the bills, maintaing our trucking business which he was sole proprietor, and maintaining the household while he was gone and when he was home he always was working on his be semitruck with maintenance and repairs to keep it up to specs for the highways; therefore, he never showed me appreciation for all the things I was doing. Then he wanted to get out of trucking since we both agreed he should be around more since we have a family now. To make a long story short he promised me to many things such as finding job which would pay for the debt that trucking got us into but months went by and he said he could not find a job. We ended getting into fights then he finally found a job which did not pay but it was bringing some money in which was not cutting the bills yet; therefore, I took a part time job on weekend evenings bartending bringing in an extra $500.00/month which I did not want to do it was taking time away from my son but my husband was not pulling his end;therefore, I rescue again. I met a guy and some people at my new job and explained to them what I was going through with the mental abuse and the financial situation. They helped me open my eyes but with my son it made it harder for me to make a decision should I leave or stay? Well, I filed divorce and child custody papers and had them served after I moved out. He came home to a house without some curtains, one tv, a couch set, some wall hangings, some of my sons clothes and my clothes. It hurt me to leave my home behind because of the good memories and it is my son's home. My husband called me on my mobile crying saying he could not live without our son and me and he would not know what he would do. He said he would not have a life without our son and me. I told him lets be adults about this and get along for our son. About a week a brought my son back because I thought it would give my husband the strength which it did but he wanted me to stay and try to work it out. He started to show the appreciaion, affection, and respect. For example, he says that i am pretty and that he looks at me he gets turned on. I do something for him, he says thank you. He never did this throughout our marriage. He was distant from me.I am caught between two men, My husband and now the guy I have known for over a year. The new guy helps me in every possible way and he told me that he loves me and he would take care of me and my son. This guy is my dream guy. He is everything I wanted in a man which I didn't think existed. Plus, we have the same personality which my husband and I do not have. But, I feel that I should stay with my husband and play the part of being happy (but I am truely miserable) because of our son and I feel that i will be ripping up his home by him shifting back and forth between homes. Then there is a part of me if i proceed with my relationship with the other man that makes me very happy. But my fear there is that he will change to the worse and I have lost everything and I will be lonely and miserable. I am so mixed up I don't know which way to go anymore. I have tried to love my husband with passion but it is not there it is just sex. With the other man I have feeling and when I am away from him all I think about is him but when I am away from the other guy, all I think about is my son and the things I worked so hard for and I will lose them. Please help me!!!!!! I am so mixed up!!!!!

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May 17, 2005
03:03 PM

Nina, I can totally relate to your situation. I finally left my situation after 17 years of marriage. The bottom line, I have found, is that you can't change him. I hoped and prayed he would eventually 'get it.' He didn't. Even though I have seen some changes in his behavior since his new marriage, the ugly head always reveals itself along the way. True love is not wanting to change someone..accepting them for who they are. If you can't do this and you are denying yourself sanity, let alone happiness, I would suggest moving on with your life. I have since found a man who has 'done the work.' He has read the books, been to seminars, therapy..you name it. He is not perfect, but he is conscious of his behavior and has a desire to be appropriate and respectful. Our new relationship will also be work, but it will be a process we will do together, willingly and with earnest. Good luck and God bless.

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May 23, 2005
10:37 AM

Nina, I am in the same dilemma with my husband, but we don't have kids yet. His father was horribly verbally (and I think Physically) abusive towards his Mother. Mom left when the boys were 8 and 10, and they still have all of his anger and abusive actions as adults. It's amazing how much behavior is learned from parents at an early age. I don't want to have children that treat their wives this way. I know I will if I stay. It's all a big loop! It really sucks, but it will be a great move. Kate

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May 25, 2005
10:21 PM

Nina, I have been with a man similar, in many ways, to your husband. We've been together going on 14 years. It doesn't get any better. Unfortunately, I still allow my husband to get to me and end up in tears or yelling much of the time. I'm so sick of it. It's hard when you have kids, but it truly won't get any better and since, like me, there's no friendship there anymore, it's hard to stay with someone you don't like, let alone have any kind of sexual relationship with them. I pray that you'll have the strength to make whatever you decide is the right choice and follow through with it. Be strong! J-

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May 28, 2005
09:43 AM

Nina, I can relate completely. I'm originally from the USA, married a man from Belize nearly 20 years ago and moved to Belize with him 17 years ago. It took me a very long time to see the abuse in our relationship. He's a very subtle emotional abuser. We have three boys. About 3 years ago I finally came to the same conclusion as you. I can understand the resentment and the emotionally dead feeling toward him. My boys are 18, 15 and 9. I know now that I should have left sooner because my two younger sons have definitely picked up some of their father's abusive tendencies. I finally left him last July and moved back to the USA with my two younger boys. I am so much happier now that I don't have to be around my husband all the time. If all goes well my divorce will be final by the end of this year. I'm happy that you recognized the problems in your marriage sooner than I did. I wish you luck in figuring out your future plans and creating a loving, nurturing and peaceful environment for your children.

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May 30, 2005
10:04 AM

Yes Nina I understand you I have been there and unfortunitly there are a lot of those kind of men/women out there like that.Unfortunitly My Husband past on. He was a controller ,fisical abusive ,emotional abuser also. the phycical abuse came when he was drinking when he wasnt drunk he was emotional abuser only. I should have learned after that but we seem to pick that type I am now living my way in another city and how I left him well I waited til he went to work then it took me 3 hrs to pack and get out ,I had planed everything everytime he went to work then that day came the truck came and I was out of there now mty daughter is grown up and left home and I have been married since unfortunitly this marrage was also emotional abusive now I am planing to leave this one we are divorced but I gave him another chance(wrong). Well now I have learned that I can get ahead on my own and with you where ever you are there is always Help out there especially when you have little ones to support.but do not make the same mistake twice.I have also experienced Men who like to be supported by women and take all thier money. all I say is BE CAREFUL you don't need that.

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May 30, 2005
08:55 PM

Isn't it ironic? My 2 year Wedding Anniversary is tomorrow and I am in an almost similiar position, except for the fact that my abusive husband has started getting physically abusive after even one drink! I have been with him for over 9 years (including the two years being married) and I am completely dead to him as well. Right now I am in the process of getting my ducks in a row and am going to leave him!! I am so excited! But, I am scared too of his reaction when he finds out...and all I can say is thank God we do not have children...I am only 29 and am ready to get my self esteem back! I have faced the facts, my husband is never going to change. All I have to do is look at his parents and his sister and know that just like your husband he thinks that this behaviour is acceptable and normal.

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May 31, 2005
12:35 AM

oh my nina.....i think i am with his twin...my bf acts the same way

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May 31, 2005
08:28 AM

Yes, I can empathize a lot. I've been married 21 years to a controlling, verbally abusive closet alcoholic. The verbal abuse was primarily covert, so it left me in a constant state of confusion. We have two amazing children, 18 & 15, who kept me going. We are currently in separate counseling and I am growing stronger every day. I am just a breath away from leaving him, because no matter how hard I try to think about staying, it's like Dr. Irene said - there's too much water under the bridge. And the trust is gone.

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June 04, 2005
10:56 PM

I think that she is in very real danger of escalation and being in a foreign and macho country, she will not get the support and help she needs to get out. I say take the kids and go home to america, where there is at least a network of help. I have been in a very abusive relationship and I have the helpless and powerlessness that she feels, but I also recognize that some cultures are deeply ingrained with the idea that women are there to serve and entertain thier men...it is natural for them, as they know no other way. Most have seen their mothers being abused and think that is NORMAL...you can not show a dysfunctional person what normal is, because they have no concept that what they are doing is not normal. I can logically understand this, what I cant understand is how I became so weak, and use every excuse to explain away his behaviour. I did not come from an abusive family,but I have learned to be abusive right back at him, and it sickens me... that is all he knows , and somehow, when I am abusive back to him, he feels comfortable, like he is in his element. AND I FEEL LIKE CRAP FOR BEING JUST LIKE HIM... How can I break out of this cycle and get my beautiful life back. I feel like I am drowning...

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June 04, 2005
10:57 PM

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June 05, 2005
01:19 AM

hello,

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June 05, 2005
01:25 AM

hello, i am waan.i have a problem.i don't like anybody.i don't trust anybody.i often get mad at little stupid stuff,then i realize it and try to make amends.i hurt peolpes' feelings.i wish i didn't take things to seriously.i also want to cry,but don't have a reason to.i am a simple guy(i can only do 1 thing at a time[attitude]),what can i do to ground myself.

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June 05, 2005
11:25 AM

Are you sure you're not dating my ex? *grin* That's what a lot of ppl feel here on the boards. Sounds like you're so fed up with the situation that you're distancing yourself and considering your options. Let me say this, listen to your feelings. Your gut reaction to this situation won't steer you wrong. I concur (along with others) that you are dealing with abuse. The denial, the manipulation, all of it can wear you down. Start looking for shelters or places where you can stay when you leave. Start putting away any important documents, photos, items that you will need when you leave. Anything you want that you can safely store (at a friend's house, at work) should be taken now. If you can't remove it permanently, get it out & make a copy of it. I found that out the hard way. Definitely research your options. In this way, you are empowering yourself for the decision you'll make in the future. I hope this helps. Validation is powerful and regaining your sense of strength is even more powerful. JM

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June 06, 2005
02:36 AM

Nina, I just read your letter with tears in my eyes!!!! I can tell you that parts of your letter felt like I had written them myself. My husband is verbally abusive, as I'm just starting to see. I kept thinking I could fix things in my marriage...if only I hadn't paid that bill late, or cleaned the house a little more, etc. Never once did it occur to me that if he was so worried about any of it, he should have pitched in himself. As far as the sex part.....wow that could take some time!! I feel exactly as you do...emotionally dead. How can someone scream for 3 hours and then expect anyone to feel like having sex. I also read that you have kids. My biggest fear is that they will grow up like this and think that it's okay!!! I don't want my daughter to think that she should be treated this way. Thanks for sharing your story. You are so much stronger than you think!!!

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June 06, 2005
02:37 AM

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June 08, 2005
12:45 AM

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June 09, 2005
02:50 AM

I am in d same shoes as you. only difference is that i'm going thru slightly more than u.. i get physically abused as well.

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June 09, 2005
03:46 AM

I currently broke up with a boyfriend after two years. I figured out that he has ocd. He mentioned it to me on his own, when I saw him shaking a door handle to shut it. I told him to let go, the door is shut. This is when he mentioned ocd. I started to research and noticed alot of symptoms, and reading the part about forgetting, wow! my boyfriend always forgets and it started to bother me and I even took it personal because he couldnt remember important dates, like my birthday or other special occasions. He talked about marrying me many times and my 18 yr. old son really loves him. My 13 yr. old daughter noticed that he was favoring my son over her, I did not catch on until my daughter expressed her hurt feelings to me and her school counselor. He began to hurt my feelings also, and I noticed that when we broke up he shut down and would not talk to me at all. We never lived together, he had his own place. This was all so sad because his real personality without the ocd seems so great. He repeats himself alot also. I wont be marrying him and I already brought up the ocd to him, he denies it and wont see a doctor. I told him that our relationship would be horrible if I married him and I am sad that he wont go get help. We tend to be very emotional as women, but we need to take care of ourselves and our children, I did my best and if he doesnt get help there isnt much I could do except pray for him. Nina just make the right decision, physical abuse and emotional abuse are both horrible, I was married to a man for 12 yrs who physically and emotionally abused me (who knows, maybe he had ocd also) I am currently a student in human services and will soon be graduating.

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June 09, 2005
03:47 AM

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June 09, 2005
08:51 AM

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June 10, 2005
01:57 AM

Nina, I can totally empathize with your situation. I am currently separated from my husband of 19 years and we have two children. I finally came to the conclusion that leaving was the best thing for me and the kids. I had to decide, just as Dr. Irene said, whether I wanted to learn to live with him or learn how to leave him. After seeing a personal counselor (which I HIGHLY recommend for you), I realized that what I truly wanted was to get OUT. The counselor helped me to learn how to do this, and I learned how to 'not engage', and not allow his behavior to control my actions. Do you know that my husband actually told me that I was being selfish for wanting to be happy? I believed him for a long time, but now I realize that I will lose the life I have always wanted to live if I stay in this relationship, and my children (both boys) will grow up to treat their wives in the same manner if they remain in this environment. I can change my life and set a good example for them, even though divorce is hard on children. I still think that it is better, in the long run, to leave...at least for me. God bless you, Nina - I pray that you will make the best choice for you and your children. Movin' on- Janet

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June 13, 2005
05:56 PM

Hi Nina, I am 36 and going through the same shannigans as you. I go to Al-Anon because he admits of being an alocholic, a person that is hard to live with, and that he does need to speak with someone,though he has not and most likely will not take the effort to get help no matter how much history we have. (We do not have kids together, though he has one and another his ex adopted in the same area we live in) I am concerned for your kids. However your decisions are made please give that extra thought and love for the kids. You and the Mr. can always work out in a different setting if both of you want to, but the effects on the kids while being in same household environment that they are in with you and the spouse problems may not be an easy recovery for them as growing children that will eventually be adults with adult problems and so on. Sincerely Stepping Out and Stepping Up Good Luck

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June 24, 2005
07:33 AM

Hey Nina, Boy, I thought I was the only one living like this! I have been married for almost 25 years and endured much verbal/emotional abuse as have my 3 sons. I am still on that rollercoaster ride and this week has been BAD. No one wants to be my friend anymore because of him and even our families have pulled away. I have tried a lot of things but I have come to realize he will never change. I try to detach from his stuff but it is not easy. Especially when he is accusing me of "screwing around" and he is the one who looks at pornography online and even carries a woman's phone number. I even know he has went to meet her once but do not think anything happened. So, I feel your pain.

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June 25, 2005
02:24 AM

I just want to say thank you Dr. Irene for this website. I found it a few years ago when I was at my wit's end, trying to understand why I was depressed and feeling like I was losing my mind. It has been an eye-opener to say the least. I have lived with a control-freak for 25 years. I should have left years ago, but was afraid, am still afraid to. I don't know how I could support myself and my two remaining children at home. I wish I would have left shortly after we were married, but I always thought his behavior would change once we settled in, once he got through flight school, once he made rank and made more money, once we had child....Nothing made him happy for long. I was never thin enough, (5'9" 135 pounds for a good many years)not fast enough, always too slow, dumb, (yeah for staying)and the list goes on. Having a religious background, divorce was not an option. So I just put up with his abuse which in the beginning was verbal, but eventually turned to physical violence when I was pregnant with our first child. The problem is I can't see myself being divorced or even separated, living on my own, which I never have. Its scary. I live in a relatively nice neighborhood now, safe place for kids, 14 and 17-year-old girls. If I was out on my own, we would have to live in a trailer park in a funky area of town which is probably all I could afford on my income. My children would not be as safe (husband doesn't bother them, only me). So that is one reason I stay. THey don't see him hit me, but they hear his abuse and that really bothers me. I constantly tell them it isn't normal and they should never accept that kind of treatment from a guy. I have tried to assert myself and he just dismisses me, every word I say, he doesn't listen, won't talk or discuss anything. I'll lose my medical insurance if I leave him, big deal since I have some serious health problems that need regular visits, medication, etc. So, I stay, trying to make the best out of a crappy marriage, hoping and praying that someday he will just go away, leave me for another woman, have a massive MI. Meanwhile, it is taking its toll on my health, probably on my children, not having a normal model for happy marriage (but not too many children have one these days. Just thinking about my children's friend's families, they're all messed up, divorced, playing around, or thinking about it). I figure I have about 15 good years left, still feel somewhat well, healthy, etc., so I want to be happy and at peace. I want to go to sleep thinking about good things, not how bad my day has been and what a jerk he has been today. I accept who he is and that he isn't going to change, I can't fix him, there is nothing that I can do to make him happy; I can't accept the fact that the next time I get in his way, he might haul off and slug me. I want to get away from him so bad, but I don't see how I can. I don't even have a car in my name, yet I've been working for 15 years of the 25. Anyways, just wanted to say thank you for your informative site and for a place to put my thoughts down. Down, but not defeated in Texas

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June 25, 2005
07:30 PM

Dear Nina, Gather your babies and RUN, don't walk out the door immediately! These emotional deadbeats never change, in fact the behaviors get worse. No doubt you are thinking 9 years of your life wasted, but in my opinion you are a pretty smart gal to have caught on in so short a time frame. It took me 20 years! What's more, once they realize you are on to their behaviors, their anger intensifies, so if you want any happiness in your life - RUN NOW!

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July 02, 2005
06:39 PM

Hi Nina, I am in a very similar situation.... I have been unable to get out for many reasons and this September it will be 20 years. I cannot give you advice, I can only tell you want my experience has been... I will tell you that my sweet son is now 16 and he is just starting to have misogynistic and disrespectful attitudes that rear up here and there. I am telling you this so you know it will affect your kids. I think sons want to be like their fathers. I find that when I spend a lot of time with my son it is better but when my son spends a lot of time with him it gets worse and then I have to re-connect with my son and try to bring him back to reality. I think if we were divorced it would be about the same. I think if I would have been emotionally healthy and remarried a person that loved me and that wanted a real partnership with me the kids would be better off but I could not see that back then and I was not very healthy either... (I say this because they would have an opportunity to see that tpe of relationship between a man and a woman modeled for them) Most of all I want to tell you that from your letter I can see that you are intellegent and well spoken. I can see that you are a loving and caring person and I bet you are a great mom! You are a great wife as well. You are not crazy you are in a crazy situation! Take good care of yourself, no one else can !! You will be okay and there is no rush to anything right now... Best wishes to you!! Carmen!

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July 03, 2005
07:26 PM

Nina, My total understanding and empathy are with you. I pray that God will give you wisdom to know what to do and the strength to follow through. I have been married 3 times, my lack of trust in myself and gullible trusting, nature influenced my bad choices every time. I had all 4 of my children during the 10 years of my first marriage. After leaving the abuse there and waiting 5 1/2 yrs to marry again.....I chose someone who was more abusive than the first. That marriage lasted 4 1/2 yrs, then I waited 3 years before marrying again.....a nice, gentle guy... he was the most controlling of all, due to his extreme passive aggression. After 4 1/2 years, that marriage ended. My last choice was a sociopath!!!! Nina, I'm 50, and I am trying to get my life, thoughts, actions, trust, discernment, values, everything in order. It's not easy, but needed if I am to actually be a whole person....someone who is wholly productive. I have put my trust in the wrong people and not trusted the right ones, including myself. I am accountable for the bad choices that I've made. It doesn't matter that each of these men have been pathological liars and had their own issues....they didn't make me marry them. I even got counseling different times through the years and relationships. But I don't think I totally embraced the fact of how much I needed to change. I changed some of my thinking through the years, but not enough, or I wouldn't have needed to get into controlling relationships, or wanted so badly to believe the lies they decieved me with. My children are not as wacky as a lot of peoples kids are after all my bad relationships. My kids all believe in Jesus still, don't do drugs or drink and haven't gotten into premature sexual relationships. I feel like God has blessed them, in spite of my choices. Plus, I think He heard my prayers that they be kept from making similar choices. But...my 20 year old daughter has relational trust and control issues, how can you believe guys issues?!? My 24 year old daughter went through several short-term relationships that were based on her co-dependancy in "taking care" of the guy and his problems. Plus, they didn't treat her as respectfully as they should. Fortunately, she wasn't stubborn and blind like I was, and she listened to myself and others tell her what we saw. Now she's marrying someone that God blessed her with. My oldest son is 28 and always finds something wrong with the people he dates. He's a good kid, doesn't get sexually involved past serious necking, because he's waiting for marriage....but he has emotional intimacy problems. I'd rather see all my kids or anyone for that matter, not get married or have kids rather than marry wrong, like I did. I'd much rather see people be whole, and be able to make good, solid choices, not out of their neediness. Nina, what I'm trying to say here, is....Look at my example, learn from it. Learn from others. Listen to what others say, listen to what you say to yourself....evaluate these things, prayerfully, logically scripturally. Whatever you do, don't be hasty. Make your decisions, knowing why you made them. Then, don't forget what you learned. Examine why you've made the choices you did. And why you still are. Make lists of things: -WHAT DO I WANT IN A MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP -WHAT DO I THINK OF MYSELF, HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT MYSELF....IS THIS DIFFERENT THAN I THOUGHT OR FELT ABOUT MYSELF BEFORE THIS RELATIONSHIP? -IF ITS DIFFERENT, WHEN DID THAT CHANGE -HOW IS THIS AFFECTING OUR CHILDREN -WHAT DO I NEED TO CHANGE -WHY DID I CHOOSE MY HUSBAND -WHY DID I CHOOSE MY EX BOYFRIENDS, FIANCES', WHATEVER -WHAT THINGS FROM MY PAST DO I NEED TO UNDERSTAND OR CLEAR UP, SO I CAN BREAK FREE FROM THIS THINKING AND ACTING I hope you are able to work through these things while you are young. Its certainly worth the time and effort to clear it up for yourself and your children. Face things now and help your children and others grow with you. Hopefully, your spouse will grow too. But he would have to choose that route. Occassionally people like that do make that choice, unfortunately it's not that often. This whole "Irene" site is soooooo cool. I wish I'd had something like this 20 years ago. God bless you, Nina. I know He's blessed me in many ways through the years. Don't give up. With Understanding and Compassion, Nancy

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July 03, 2005
11:18 PM

To every women who has posted to this site, THANK YOU! My horror story started 18 years ago. I married (G) whom at that point I believe a decent, responsible, mature man 13 years my elder. Although I had a decent job, it was a struggle with a two year old baby boy. (G) showered us with monetary help, gifts, trips..also, G treated my child like he was his own. I knew G had been married twice before and that they only lasted a few months. That should have been my first warning. I have to admit I did see a glimps or two of the possibility of an emotional/anger control disorder. The instances were short and regained quickly by him when I let him know his actions/words were hurtful. (G) asked me to marry him only three months after we met. I accepted hoping (like so many of you have stated) he would change. Shortly after marriage (G) asked me to quit my full time job with the government. "Stay home be a good mother" he said. Sounded great to me! Less than a few months went by before the verbal abuse and physical abuse (toward me only) began. The physical abuse was cut short pretty quickly. I was still active in Ballet, Jazz, Tap and Modern Dance. I had tremendously strong legs. I am 4ft 11in tall and (G)is 6ft. The last I remember of the physical abuse was G shoving my on the couch pinning me down, seething and (yes) spitting in my face. I lost it, adrenaline kick in overdrive and my legs sent him sailing over the coffee table. He looked at me in shock and kept screaming "your crazy, your crazy" I wasn't crazy he was. Before this incident I was pushed, shoved, pinned down to the point of not being able to breath, and on one occasion he started strangling me. Big man right? For years I have been verbally, emmotionally, and mentally manipulated and abused. I have been screamed at until I've fallen to the floor begging to be left alone. He has embarressed in public, financially traps me even deeper every time I start making an attempt to leave. Seven years ago, after returning to work full time, working part time as a ballet instructor, dancing with a modern dance company, and trying to maintain all the household chores, with no help, it happened. My nervouse system shut down. I have tears in my eyes as I write this letter because it is not sometime I have wanted to tell. I did'nt know what was happening to me. I stayed on the bathroom floor for 6 days I couldn't eat, sleep, or even move, my skin felt as if it were on fire. My son finally came to me crying and said "momma you are so sad that I am afraid you are going to die. I spent two weeks in a mental hospital. I'm lucky that was all. (G) told me, after having to take on my chores, that things were going to change. "I don't know how you do it all" he said. "I know what's important now", it's you. (G)only stuck by those word for two months (max). I stop the dance company, which I hated to do because dancing is my passion. My son is seventeen now he knows (G) has slowly destroyed his mother. He is ready to do whatever I want. I still work full time, part time and manage to hang on to my sanity. I am however, stricken with accute IBS. IBS is a stress related desease. (G) showed out for the last time last night. I was so sick I was passing blood. (G) continued to scream F-U, your sick, your crazy, your selfish, shut the F up u Dumb F. for 1 and 1/2 hours non-stop. I stared at this horrible monster that I believed loved me. However, I've got it all on tape this time. That's when I came and found this web site. This is the last letter (G) will ever get from me. After printing out the 23 pages from this web site I left him with the following letter: Attached you will find 23 pages of letter from women who support me. Read them and then find yourself an attorney. You tell me I need help. You seem to forget, I've gone for help over, and over, and over again. I've believed it was my mental problem. Truth is, YOU have refused to get help. You know your behavior is unacceptable or you would not have demanded the tape I made of you. You have been an emotional nightmare that I can not wait to wake up from. YOU need to get help, if not for yourself then for the next woman you meet. I wish you the best, I don't want to hate you. I dont want to argue with you. I don't care who's right or wrong. I am physically sick and I need to get well for my child. The mental problems will go away when you go away. Again ladies, thank you

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July 05, 2005
10:04 PM

This letter is written to the woman who wrote in after me on July 3, 2005. I have continued to read the helpful things on Dr. Irenes' sites now for days. I feel so blessed to have found them, I have told several other people about it too, so they can find what they need too. But just now I wondered if anyone had posted anything since I did 2 days ago. I saw a new letter, and realized it was just 3 hours after mine was submitted. I want you to know I'm praying for you. Isn't it amazing how you were led to find this website in such a time of crisis, when you felt like you had no one to talk to?! And that when you felt so hopeless, there was proof that you weren't the crazy one! And others had lived through spirit-crushing things for years....and survived! JUST LIKE YOU WILL. Praise God that your child is supportive and understanding, he doesn't resent you and wants to see you well. May God put you in touch with the people He knows you can trust. May you feel peace in your soul, despite your circumstances. May you grow in Truth and Wisdom, that your eyes and ears will not be blinded by the deceptions and lies you have believed previously. May you be protected and kept out of harms way, knowing that God loves you more than any human possibly could. I pray these things for your child also and everyone that has written to this site. We are not alone in our sufferings, and God has known our pain all along and wants us to be healed. I pray we all accept what God has to give and pass it along to whomever He desires us to. I hope you post additional information concerning your outcome, person-who- posted-after-me. From another woman who's growing and learning. Nancy

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July 08, 2005
01:48 AM

Powerful! And very much worth the loss of sleep. It's 1:33 AM as I read this. I was ultimately linked to this page when I typed this into www.ask.com "how do I leave my abusive husband with no money, friends or family?" I felt hopeless when I typed that. I feel so different now after reading Nina's story, and all the posts that followed. I'm going to bed to sleep on all of this. I dread the weekends. That's when all of the worst fighting happens. I get physically ill by Thursdays. I felt so trapped. What a burden that has been lifted here tonight! I just wonder how to accomplish this "disengage" thing. It sounds simple, but the day can be VERY long riding out the attacks. I feel like "Tess" earlier. Her humor was much needed. Thank you all for making the effort. And that's all we really want from our love, our friend. Effort. So much is put into the arguing/fighting. Half that effort would be all that is needed to keep things in workable order. He went for a walk in the woods last weekend with the boys. He came home with wildflowers. I ended up throwing them into the garbage in anger and frustration by supper. That's the picture of our life now. Efforts that prove things could be decent. But ultimately later actions that continue to move us apart. If we could be inside of each other in those moments? If we could have the opportunity to experience being in the other's shoes for that moment of negative reaction. We can't. Besides, even if we could, we would be very disillusioned, I'm sure. I'm the ever enduring pipe dreaming optimist. He is the ever drama king of pessimism. I'm weary again. I need to sleep. I'm choosing to feel a glimmer of hope. I'm going to sleep now, and I will dream of hypothetical encounters where I successfully "disengage." .....;-)

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July 08, 2005
06:03 PM

Its me Nina. you needent feel like you are alone. You ought to join the Catbox there to your left. Im petunia in the forums, there are many of us with lots of questions and support. you will get tons of tips on how to disengage from your miserable spouse , and that alone is a blessing. For everyone esle, I have taken a place and will be leaving this situation by the first week of August, I toss and turn at night, but I know that i am taking the right path----at least Im taking a path! Ive learned so much ehre, and even on days when I dont aprticipate activly in the forums, it gives me so much support just to know that I am not alone! So come into the CATBOX and post your stories there! thank you for all that replied to my story- Nina

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July 10, 2005
05:44 PM

Congratulations, Nina. You didn't react in haste and took the time to think things through before coming to the conclusion to leave. You waited until you were strong enough and had your proverbial "ducks in a row". Success and blessings to you and your children. Just watch out for future predators and be careful whom you trust. You can't be too careful when it comes to taking care of your children and yourself. Not just for your sake, but for your childrens sakes also. Follow all the advice about checking people out on the abuse, narcissist and sociopath lists that Dr. Irene has. Don't ignore your gut or your childrens gut feelings. Check, check and multiple check anyone out in your future, so that history doesn't repeat itself. Take time to heal and keep talking to people about how you feel. In retrospect, I realize I thought I was much farther along in my healing and understanding of the whys and whatevers, concerning my weaknesses and bad choices...hence,3 bad marriages and the sociopath grand finale relationship. I really felt better than I was. I could talk the healed talk, but I couldn't walk the healed walk. I deceived myself through denial. It's so clear to me now, but it wasn't at the time. DENIAL IS SO POWERFUL. DECEPTION IS SO POWERFUL...........But this is even better..........TRUTH IS THE MOST POWERFUL!!!!!!!!! "The Truth shall set you free," applies to everything, not just Jesus. I believe that's why it's so hard for many of us to deny truth about so many things in our lives. IT'S MORE COMFORTABLE FOR US TO BELIEVE LIES AND DECEPTIONS FOR MULTITUDES OF REASONS. Maybe we'll have to live alone; face our fears; temporarily give up our hopes; face our sins; confront our enemies; give up relationships; move away; work on our own problems; examine our own motives; hear what others are really saying to us; realize we are not innocent in all things that happen to us; admit our faults, apologize and ask forgiveness; submit to God and do what He wants us to, rather than what we want us to; take on healthy guilt, instead of false...mis-directed guilt; leave a chaotic, unproductive life...taking away our excuses for unproductivity, because we have "peace" in our lives; be responsible for our feelings. Again, success and blessings to you and your family, Nina. And to all of you who have written in to this sight. I agree with those of you who find comfort knowing you're not alone. It's not just "misery loves company" either. Theres power in knowing others have been there, survived and moved on victoriuously. Praise God! We don't have to live in defeat, we can choose victory through facing and accepting truth. Nancy

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July 10, 2005
11:04 PM

July 10, 2005 I'm trying to understand myself and see how much of an abuser I may be. I'm the wife. We've been married for four years and we have full custody of his two children (nine and ten; boys). After a lot of trouble with his family, things are much better and I now talk and email with his ex wife - we have the crazy mother-in-law bond. :o) Anyway, I'm starting to notice a need for control in many aspects of our relationship, how the house is, what happens with the kids, etc. It's not as bad as it used to be but it's still there. I get enraged if the kids don't do what they're supposed to do and view that as disrespect toward me even when I know they honestly forgot - I was reading earlier about authoritative abuse and that's it! I get upset with my husband if he doesn't do what I want and at that moment, I expect a lot of attention (as I got when we were dating; notes, flowers, etc.). When those don't come my way I think that he doesn't really love me and I'm here as a full time babysitter...even though he does plenty with the kids and will do anything I ask...I focus on what he doesn't do. Is this low self-esteem? I'm nagging a lot and very moody. I want to be the happy, positive person I used to be and I find myself thinking that if I leave I'll be that person...but I realize it's not b/c of him...it's me...I don't want to talk down to him and make him think he's not doing enough and I know I do that...I don't want the kids to fear what's next if they mess up...any thoughts? Thank you!

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July 21, 2005
10:29 AM

I can completly empathize with Ninas dilemma! I go though the same crap day in and day out! I am in the process of leaving my husband for all the same reasons... Give Nina my email... angelatennille@hotmail.com

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July 21, 2005
10:33 AM

I was married to a man very much like the one described above. I was 17 and fresh from a very abusive and sheltered homelife I ran from. He was 36 and running from his second wife and third child. I had no idea what I was in for. That was in the eighties. He used exactly the same tactics of behavior above, seems like my husband and he learned from the same -- er -- society? I see it so much now that I'm older.. Anyway, I had no where to go. He was smooth and "sweet" with everyone and an immature, self centered controller with me. Having been from abuse I was petrified of physical assault and he knew that and kept the threat of his physical superiority always subltly available, although he never touched me. His usual behaviors were as above: 1) Denial of my feelings/reality 2) Pouting and withdrawl to elicit my compliance/acceptance 3) Passive abdication of responsibilty 4) Double standards of behavior -- you have no friends, he does. He go no where, he is free to go anywhere. 5) Keeping you isolated and rootless, that is devoid of support to free your mind of him! I just deleted a long ramble about my ex. Anyway, he was very awful to live with and it took me eight years to get my life in order to leave him. He tried to keep me pregnant by refusing to use birth control, kept me off balance by constantly sabotaging community connections (we were always on the run as he constantly manipulated and lied to people to avoid getting a job and behaving responsibly) and on and on. Anyway, how did I get away? I think that you can leave sooner than I did, but I had to build an identity and sense of self in order to begin the process of leaving. I had to make the tools that should have been given to me as a child. Then I started to plan and I also groomed him. I played his game for awhile -- "Honey, why don't you stay home and do your home business thing and I'll work to pay the rent and such?" -- My goal? finally get a way to get out and get work skills without him feeling threatened about my leaving -- I had to work this idea for months to get him to accept, but the prospect of living off my earnings was more than he could resist. The next was tricky, but it worked. "I need to get my drivers' license and get a car since your taking me back and forth to work is really cramping your business time." Fact was, he did nothing during this time. I also hired a part-time nanny to help around the house although I knew he could do it himself. He liked this and she provided him with company while I was working. Pretty soon he was happy to get me a car although he refused to teach me to drive. I hired a neighbor kid for that. But he wanted to have uninterrupted time to court this new female who was now so available to him. I worked all hours that I could and gave him "shut up" money. that is, every week he shamelessly came to my work while I stood in line to cash my check and he waited for me to hand over a portion of cash for his personal spending. As long as he had cash to play with and I was freely giving it to him, he felt like he was in control and was winning. I emotionally disconnected from him. I started sleeping in the living room, saying I didn't want to wake him when I came home late at night. He accepted this arrangement. I also refused to have sex with him anymore if he wouldn't use birth control. This was risky as I was afraid of being raped, but it never happened. I think he was happy with the newly hired nanny. I saved my money, opened my own checking account and started making plans to get my own place. When I found a place and had looked at it (working and driving gave me freedom), I announced my intention to move in front of an audience (one of his dupes he used for his schemes). He couldn't react as he had to keep up his persona. I had already put a deposit down and made my plans. I told him he could keep the present apartment but he'd have to pick up the rent tab. Mind you, he tried to rope me into responsibility for everything, even paying the rent which at first he agreed to do (during an argument no doubt that he had long forgotten). He told the landlord the rent was my responsibility, so that I looked like the jerk when it wasn't paid and I had to stand before this person when I got home from work, "Yeah, she'll be here with the money at..." Once I made up my mind about what to do, I just stopped meaningful communication with the landlord, who was bullying me because he was angry and my ex had convinced him that the nonpayment was my fault. I don't recommend this to everyone, but I had to disengage completely from every game my ex tried to pull to rope me in. Note: I made the "announcements" about my leaving as fact. There was no compromise or arguing. It was done. I had seperated from him emotionally and it got easier and easier. One good side effect of working also was having other people around who a) saw me as a nice person worthy of respect b) saw me as an attractive woman c) were still going to be there tomorrow when I moved away from (even though I didn't share much with people at work, that consistency was important)him. Also might I add, I was so angry and so sick and tired of living in his hell that I felt that all other emotions were just literally burnt out. When I left, he conned me one last time (no I am wrong, he conned me a few more times after that but they were weak) to let him move in as he had no where to go. He was deflated and now acting like the weak little boy who needed rescuing. He couldn't control me like he used to do; I wasn't listening anymore. His threats of physical violence didn't scare me either and I had learned over the years that he was afraid of the police, so I no longer feared him. I let him move in -- oh, it takes us a while my friends! I started dating and actually started acting out quite a bit. THe ground rules: You move in, I go on with my life, I remember telling him, "As far as I'm concerned I am no longer married to you." But I did want him gone as he took over my whole house, ran the television all day long, walked around in his underwear and did absolutely nothing about getting a job, a place to live or anything. My landlord commented on that "a______e" who was rude to him one day and my light bill went through the roof. That was enough. The local crisis center advised that I could have him removed as he isn't on the lease. I came home one day and gave him three days to leave or I'd call the police and have him out. He reluctantly packed up his things and left, making comments to the kids --- and that was the beginning of his using the children to get to me, but that's another story for another day. Anyway, he was out and I was an emotional mess. It took me awhile to get my head on straight and I can't say I made the best decisions in the next couple of years. I wasn't used to getting emotional support or making friends so I was on my own totally with only my own perceptions. One note: During the eighties I had tried in vain in many of the communities we lived to get shelter for myself and my children. I was always turned down as he never physically abused me. I think he knew this fact and was smart enough to not resort to violence, but my ex was a talker not a fighter. I had to pull myself together all on my own. Also, during custody and divorce and following child support, etc. proceedings, people were far too willing (and this includes therapists) to paint me as the hysterical, vengeful ex-wife. I hated this stereotype, but learned also to anticipate it and work around it. For all you therapists out there, I had to project an image of total control and calmness in order to be heard and taken seriously. This was not sincere, but any expression of anger, sadness or confusion was not always welcomed or helpful to my and my children's needs. What a pity. One time I cracked open after going through a particularly rough time with my youngest child, a very intuitive therapist remarked how she was surprised because I was "always so in control" "I am sorry we must have forgotten how all this stress wears on you." she said, hinting possilbly that allowing myself to be human was not going to kill everyone. We learn dysfunctional behaviors to survive and outwit an abuser, then we must unlearn them in order to function in a healthy way and have a productive and healthy life. I hope my post wasn't too long and was helpful to someone. K.

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July 21, 2005
04:23 PM

Dear Nina... I hope you are okay. I cried when I read your letter to Irene because it sounded almost identical to my sister's situation. My sister is recovering after having put up with exactly the same treatment from her tyrranical and cruel lover of four years.And to think this man holds a position of power and status given his educational background just makes me sick. He was a force to be reckoned with and I DESPISE him for having hurt my sister in the way he did. If you knew the names he called her (tramp, excreta of the underclass are just 2 examples) the way he mistreated her (even once punching her because she got off at a wrong floor in a parking lot) you would literally freak out. These types of men need to be stood up to assertively...and without FEAR...My advice is simply like Irene's: DON'T ARGUE, DON'T GIVE IN..Don't ALLOW yourself to put up with it. I know it is hard, given you have been with him for so long... BUT, the bottom line is that HE has the problem and not you. OKAY??? I pray for you all and hope you stand up to those BULLIES. DON'T LET THEM WIN!!!!!! Regards, M

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July 22, 2005
01:09 AM

Hi: I don't have any suggestions for Nina, because I'm in the same boat she's in. I see so many similarities, and can really empathize with her. I'm new to this site, and have just picked up some good advice. I will keep checking back. Thanks! Barb

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July 23, 2005
04:26 PM

The options available seem grim when the situation calls for a take it or leave it approach . The children are hurt in all cases. So sad and so avoidable. Why are people so selfish? Sorry for your pain.

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July 27, 2005
02:29 PM

i think i have figured out the #1 way to tell if you are in an abusive situation or not. i believe that everyone has their crap and their abusiveness and cruddy behaviors, but the #1 question is "do you truly believe that this person wants to work through problems to get to the other side of them, or not?" i think truly abusive people (who are at core incapable of real intimacy) use problems as weapons. ask in your heart "does this person really want to work through our problems? if he thinks i'm a bad wife, is he really willing to communicate and tell me what he needs and then accept that?" You know his true intentions...we all do, deep down. I left my "mr. perfect" because for as many flaws and problems as I brought to the relationship, I knew I couldn't ever work through them with someone who didn't really want to. He had more fun using them against me to buff up his image of himself, to threaten me, or to put me down. How does your husband use problems? I think everyone can read this and see he has no ability to work through anything. It's a dead end. It's not your fault. There's not a damn thing you can do about it. He will be better off if you leave, too.

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July 27, 2005
02:32 PM

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August 01, 2005
02:58 PM

Dear Nina, You're not the oly one going through this. I am in a similar relationship. i have been emotionally blackmailed by him again and again, and my mistake was not telling him NO straight out. Now i cannot take any more of it an have stopped talking to him. He has now realises that he is loosing me, and is trying to win me back at all costs. But I don't want to go back and be the victim again. I have tried reasoning with him in the past, but to no avail, usually i become trapped into his words and end up dooing what he wants me to. I feel that beause of his blckmail i have lost my respect for him. Two years have passed he still hasn't found a job, and keeps asking me for money. The amount keeps increasing with time, and i cannot do it anymore. I don't even know if i should go back to him. Alina

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August 03, 2005
09:45 PM

Its Nina, I am 4 days from getting out, its been a long road, but If I can do it, you guys can..xoxoxo

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August 08, 2005
09:51 PM

Hurrah Nina! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!! I hope that your children and you adjust quickly to the new living conditions. The peace that comes from separating yourself from the abusive situation is incredible. Sometimes you will be doing something and it will just hit you, "I don't have to walk on eggshells about this anymore" or "I don't need to be afraid anymore". Remember to use your support group (friends, family, church) to run things past. It can be a little hard trying to get stabalized at first, with all the freedom from control. PRAISE GOD, you made a good decision and you're sticking to it. Nancy

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August 08, 2005
09:58 PM

"You have tough choices to make Nina. You can learn to disengage from his stuff more, and that will help you feel less resentment towards him since you won't be expending so much energy fighting. You are more likely to accept that this is who is is and that his behavior has little to do with you. He will never be a partner to you, he just won't upset you as much since you will expect so much less. Learning how to do this will be good for you no matter what you do, so I highly suggest you read..." Dear Nina - I agree completely with Dr. Irene. I have been in a very similar relationship for twenty years. At first I thought it could be immaturity, but years later it was still going on. I then thought counseling would help but when the counselors would try to touch on his fears and reactive behavior he would shut them out and become defensive, angry. Nothing changed and it only became more damaging to our four children. I sought private counseling to help me 'survive' in the marriage. I also "disengaged from his stuff more...", as Dr. Irend suggested. The more I disengaged, the more he resented me and finally, on the spur of a moment, packed up and moved out on MOTHER'S DAY!! What a treat for the whole family to remember!?!? Please find a good, and I mean GOOD counselor for yourself and consider investing in a consultation with a good female attorney. You need to prepare yourself for your children's sake if not yourself. He is not going to be happy when he sees you growing stronger and "disengaging from his stuff." However, you can do it! PREPARE yourself through good counsel emotionally and legally AND document. Document his threats, accusations, behaviors, etc. You never know how important it may be to you one day. A narcissitic person can make you appear to look guilty of everything that they are really guilty of doing. Without documentation, it just becomes he said, she said and you lose because you have no proof. People may doubt what you say but they will always believe what you do. If you document what he 'does' then you have something for people to believe. Please be strong. Love your kids through it, smile, and laugh with them! God bless!

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August 10, 2005
02:15 AM

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August 13, 2005
07:43 PM

Hi, I have been married to my husband since last October. I didn't know him very well when I married him, at least not as well as I should have. He had been a good friend of my daughter-in-law's years before, and I had heard nothing but good things about him, so I guess I trusted her opinion too much. I'm not blaming her at all, since he had changed so much since she had known him. We have been together, then apart, numerous times. At first, it would be little things that he would do, like say nasty comments and such. Then, it started to get worse. Tearing up the house, yelling, calling me horrible names, coming at me in threatening ways, etc. Once again, he would leave, and tell me how much he loved me and missed me, so back he came. Now it's gotten horrible. If he's here, he's horrible to me. It doesn't matter what happens, he calls me a liar, yells and screams at me, curses me, and intimidates me in every way he can. I can't talk to him about anything because no matter what I say or do, he gets furious. But when he's away, he stalks me. He follows me everywhere, hides to see when I come home and who I'm with, threatens to hurt me and whoever I'm with (never men). It seems safer to have him here than away because at least I know where he is and what he's going to do. He's so jealous. He has to go everywhere with me, and if any man even looks at me, I'm in the wrong and should have done something to avoid it. He has a very violent behavior. He knows nothing of settling a situation by talking. His first thought is to fight. He's been in jail and prison most of his life (he's 30 years old and I'm 44), and most of the time it was because of a violent act. He had a bad childhood, and I thought that was most of his problem and if he saw that someone really loved him, he'd love back. He's accused me of cheating on him (I have never even thought of it), but one of the times we were apart, he slept with a number of women, even giving them some of the jewlery I had given him. This last time, he took my wedding rings, which I recently got, and pawned them. Now, he is looking at going to jail for 4 months for a 3rd offense DUI. (When he is away from me, he drinks and drives and totally acts out, but when he's home he doesn't do those things). He leaves in 8 days, and that is my saving grace (if I make it through it in one piece). His big fear is that I won't stay with him while he's in jail. Yet, the closer it gets, the worse he treats me, instead of treating me good. I've had the police come to my house a number of times when he's gotten really bad, but it's useless. We live in a really small town, and they tell me there's not much they can do. The worst thing is that he's not at all afraid of the police. He doesn't care if they put him in jail, or what. A restraining order doesn't even faze him. I want to file for divorce while he's in jail and get a restraining order, but I'm terrified of what he's going to do when he gets out. Moving to another place is not an option. I feel like I am stuck no matter what I do. Before, he'd admit that he had a anger problem, but now he blames me for everything. He has no insurance, so any kind of therapy or medication isn't possible. (He's only worked for 2 weeks since we've been together) I just don't know what to do. I'm afraid if I leave and stay with a friend (with my 16 year old daughter), he'll break into my house or poison my dogs, which I have a number of, or anything else you can possibly think of. There is nothing that would be beyond him to do. I just don't know what to do. Anything you could tell me would really be appreciated. Thanks, Patty

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August 13, 2005
07:44 PM

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August 17, 2005
12:48 AM

Nina et al, what do you think of this letter, from an abuser trying to communicate with his victim after about two months of separation? "I am so sorry. I know I’ve said it before, but never from this perspective. I have so much respect and admiration for you, for recognizing that I had become an abuser and that you had become a victim, and for stopping it. Thank you. Your courage led to my breakthrough. I felt the isolation, the anger, and the pain described in the abuse literature. I didn’t understand why, and I certainly didn’t understand how to stop it. You did. Now I do. It comes largely from not being mindful of the present, from an intense need for validation, a need to be correct about everything, to be perfect. Much of it comes from my experiences with my family. I am no longer a slave to these damaging experiences. Again, thank you. Still, when you left, it came to me as an ice-cold shock. I have been in therapy, at least twice a week, gaining insight into my past and making concrete behavioral changes. I continue to research abuse. I have a problem, a horrible self-destructive problem that has compromised the single most precious relationship in my life. Reading cases of verbal abuse has been like staring into a mirror. I had been ashamed and guilty, embarrassed that I had behaved so horribly toward you, that I turned my greatest ally into an enemy. You have every right to be resentful and angry toward me. You knew first hand the good I could do, and yet, in the end, I was mostly giving you the bad: how insulting. I only hope, for both of our sakes, that the damage I have done is not irreparable. Now I have accepted others and myself as imperfect human beings who do not deserve to be raked over the coals for every false step. I am strong and confident that I am working to make a better life for myself and for those who keep my company. I have realized that your decision was spot-on. I have realized that I didn’t want the relationship that had developed between us anymore than you did. I want the kindness, the gentle, loving, patient exchange of which we both know we’re capable. I know that I am a trustworthy man, but I know that I have lost your trust. I know how difficult it is to regain that trust, but, if you give me the opportunity, I know that I can regain it, and that I can keep it. I understand that when someone abuses, he casts himself into a catch 22, designed to protect the victim--very appropriately, very understandably--but horrifying for the abuser, who, like me, could be a loving, caring human being with a terrible psychological problem for which he is being treated. This catch 22 is that any true progress that the abuser makes and expresses might be misinterpreted as merely an attempt to coax the victim back into a terrible relationship, a part of the cycle of abuse, even though the new relationship could be so loving, wonderful, and unique, if it were actually given an opportunity. No doubt, a relationship that persevered through a hardship like this could blossom, with the work of both partners. Some kind of hard work is necessary for any relationship. Of course, if the abuser does not say or do anything communicative, in an attempt to allow the victim space, then the perception can be that he has neither recognized his problem nor done the necessary work to acknowledge that it will always require work to stay beyond it. He unnecessarily vanishes from the victim's life, which can be a great disservice to them both. If you allow me to, I will show you that I continue to do the necessary work, and that I am a much better man than I was in June, a much better man than I ever was, and very uniquely suited to you, having learned so much from our experience together. If you cannot allow me this opportunity, I understand, and I know that we will both be fine. But we will miss out on the great joy we can bring each other. That would be a tragedy. Understandable, given the way I treated you, but no less tragic. The work I do is my own. I'm not working on anyone else. I have never thought of you as a guinea pig. You are quite simply, in my eyes, one of the most wonderful human beings I have ever known. If you are willing, I would like you to be in my life on your terms, and taking very slow, steady steps with me. I love you very deeply. Please know how much your feelings, your dreams, your interests, your priorities mean to me. Know how ready I am to listen—to really listen—to you, to make you and your thoughts a priority, how satisfying it has been for me to respect the boundaries you have set, the space and the tone you have requested. Know how ready I am to continue to put my desires aside, so that I can better support you. Know how ready I am to continue to grow when I am alone and when I am with you." Thanks, DJ

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August 18, 2005
11:37 AM

What resources are available for the husband who wants to change?

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August 24, 2005
02:37 PM

I have a confusing problem...My fiancee is not physically abusive nor does he do the put downs and controlling that has been describe...however he burst into rages. If a household appliance breaks etc. He starts yelling and cussing. It is scary for me and i have told him so. I start crying because I come from a DV household and rages equal hitting to me. When i have told him this he says "Have i ever hit you." and i have to answer no. And i don't think he will ever, but i can't live with the rage. I have anxiety and depression and his rages effect me. I huddled on the couch with my daughter during his explode over the garage door opener not working. He wanted me to get an old fashion garage that doesn't have the electronic device, when i said no he said my house was going to bankrupt him. He helped me with a large down payment on my house but its in my name.Please Help he had been really good to me except the rage:(

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August 24, 2005
02:38 PM

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August 25, 2005
02:59 AM

Hello I can really empathize with Nina's situation. The fact that she has four children is something that I cannot claim to understand, only that it must make it even harder to make a bold change such as leaving. I have been with someone for ten years now. We were finally married in '03 but it was the most low key "wedding" you could ever imagine, because he acted like there was really no point to it and I did not want to seem too frivolous. He is an especially gifted and mission-oriented man (an author), and so he is seen and treated as very special by all of his family and small group of friends (who are all women and most of whom are ex-sexual partners) and also by me! Big surprise. Everyone has particiapted in the mission and certainly coddled his specialness (that has not helped him with having even a minimal degree of humility). Although, most of those people probably hardly even get to talk to him, so it is probably from afar. For me, it has not been from afar at all. We met through my doing some freelance work for him, he expressed an interest in me and then we that we could work together, and involved myself completely in all of his work and all of the books he has written since we have been together. He has also always been a very hard to please man, in many ways, if you understand what I mean, but it was great to believe I was his one and only, so it was worth it. However, over the last few years there were many occasions when I got a shock treatment and was forced to see where I really stand with him. For example, he told me that he wanted us to agree that we never refuse one another sex. Well, i can tell you he has belittled me and balckmailed me on that point. More recently when I have been able to stay calm through his mood swings, he cannot stand it, and he "ups the ante" to whatever point will elicit a reaction from me. Then he'll say how I never have a kind word for him. This man is a workaholic, I think a secret alcoholic, and certainly is as addicted to cigarettes as anyone I have ever known. I guess I am not being all that clear, but basically, it's been like, inorder to ever get to be with him, I have to go to extremes to be available, to earn and spend money, to "Understnad" why he can't ever be available for me - you see there is always the excuse of his mission. Meanwhile I found out he was relating with an internet porn star, sending emails and whateverl else - I am not into that stuff so I dont know what they do. I confronted him and he told me it was research for his book. He claims to not be able to answer his office phone becuase he is too busy. I am the last persona who should ever be accused of botehring him because the only way to try to get along is to "leave him alone" otherwise I get blamed for sabotaging his mission - either overtly or trhough covert passive aggressive means which are incredibly painful because I never see it coming. How can I have a relationship with someone who demnds being left alone, but them expects me to fulfill his needs. His response has been repeatedly to tell me I have never done anything for him and to go into a separate bedroom, smoke and drink, and lock the door - and yell out the windows how he has to go in there because he needs some affection. If i haven't made it clear, it is he who has been playing an escalating witholding game with me for a long long time now. When I point this out, he won't admit it - he only makes up more lies to justify what he is doing. He has had the most extreme mood swings and they have affected everything VERY adversely. There is never any acknwledgement of these swings, and quite to the contrary, he finds some way of putting all of the blame on me and then withdrawing and pretending I am abusing him. It is beyond painful; I just cannot describe how much it feels like the whole world has caved in when he does this, and I also do not even know if there is something else more obvious that I am being too stupid to understand. I am ashamed by the fact that I cannot avoid his abuse, which has humiliated me in so many ways that you would not believe it. I try to find a way to understand.but now I have done that for ten years and I just don't have it in me anymore to be the one who is always taking responsibility to understnad, read more psuch books, and try to endure and get "stronger" so I can prevent or deal with the next time around without feeling like my whole life is falling apart. When he is nice, he has this really close hold on me. It feels like a kind of enchanting magical special relationship, so when he swings again it probably has more of a horrifying aspect than it otherwise would. I feel completely emotionally blackmailed, and I am worried that I also do not even know the whole story, because the swings have to be caused my something. He is also extremely crafty, I know that he creates impressions among his "friends" to pit one against the other, and they end up in kind of a competition to see who will be the most supportive to him. Well I am sorry for the rambling, but the abyss is so deep it is hard to know where to start. the separate bedroom thing is truly unbearable to me because it makes me feel so used. He did this in the beginning for several years, and now has started it again. I have the sense that everything we did have is totally erased and I do not know what to do. I have started over (within this relationahip) so many times, I just can't do it again, but I feel so sapped of my strength. Sincerely, 10 years later and still dealing with the same sad patterns.

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August 27, 2005
06:21 PM

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August 27, 2005
10:28 PM

I can sympathize. sounds like Im married to your husband. Except he never goes out, thats the only difference here. Are you kidding, sometimes I wish he would, ha ha. No but really, its amazing how selfish they can be. I too feel emotionally dead. I can go weeks without sex and I really dont care. I just feel like I have so much anger and resentment I cant get past it. I know women are like that though. Anyway, I really wish you luck. I know what you mean about the kids. I have three small ones, and its hard to just up and leave. I actually have visions of him just going to make it much easier. I learned over the years though to not get so upset by things he says. Now I just come back at him like "sue me", "take me to court", "whatever" i just dont care anymore, and he knows it. Good luck

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August 29, 2005
11:07 PM

OMG. as I read this, I started to wonder if my boyfriend has been leading a double life in Mexico! I've noticed that these guys are the masters of double standards. While it is completely understandable and justifiable that they go out all night, have friends, and contribute little or nothing to the wellbeing of our relationships, we on the otherhand are expected to give until we are empty, we are not allowed to have anyone else in our lives (it would take our attention away from them) and we are expected not to complain! Mine can stay out all night with his buddies and play "poker" (I just found out he is addicted to crack and recently spent $400 one night on getting high while I searched the streets for him... I wanted to help him but I am seeing he doesnt even want to help himself!), I am expected to sit at home. When I've gone out to dinner with a friend, he's done the same thing, called me 100 times, ruined the whole evening (because if I turned my phone off there would have been an even bigger price to pay!)and didnt stop calling until I was so frustrated I just went home. I have been called a slut, a tramp, a bimbo, and all because I attempted to do something that didn't involve him. When he has gone out all night, after starting a crazy arguement so he could later say that he went out and used because he was PISSED at me, he would say the same thing, "Why come home, all you do is ignore me for your daughter". We don't have any children together and I have a 15 year old froma previous marriage. He has broken my car windshield, choked me 4 times, and almost cost me my job. He tried to make me think I was crazy for awhile, he had my mind so screwed up, I was forgetting things, confused, disoriented, and he would tell me, "we need to get you help", "there's something wrong with your head". He's told me that I am the reason he gets angry, that if I didnt push his buttons, he wouldnt react the way he does. They both are very sadistic, I would even say complete narcissists. He wasnt like that in the beginning, he was so sweet and nice, and once he got me, he changed. I am trying to get out of my situation, I called the police on him when I thought he was going to try to kill me, and he scratched his face and told them that I did it. They took ME to jail, and now I have a domestic battery charge. They said he had established residency and that I couldn't just throw him out of my apartment. So, I gave notice to management and am moving. I am so scared he's going to say I did something to him again and have me thrown in jail again. I'm trying to keep things calm until I just get away from him. Please dont waste anymore time in your relationship. You and your kids deserve so much better. Life is so short, and he doesn't love you at all. This kind of behavior is not love. I know it's scary, we are creatures of habit for the most part, people and situations become familiar, but think of how much happier you would be if you could go out to dinner with a friend without being accused of flirting, or being called a name! Think of the freedom you would have. Imagine being trapped in a porta-potty, a really nasty one, smelling the stench, and not being able to get out. Then suddenly someone opens the door and you get that first breath of fresh air. Thats how you will feel when you get out and realise you can LIVE without being beat down!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Me

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September 03, 2005
04:30 AM

DEAR ALL, YOUNG, OLD, TALL, SHORT, BIG & SMALL: THIS PAST JULY I WAS MARRIED 35 YEARS. I HAVE THREE BOYS, TWO DAUGHTER-IN-LAWS AND ONE GRANDDAUGHTER. I FINALLY DECIDED TO DIVORCE MY HUSBAND, THE FATHER OF MY CHILDREN AND THE ONLY MAN I EVER KNEW, SEXUALLY. MY HUSBAND BECAME WEALTHLY ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO AND I'VE LIVED A LIFESTYLE I NEVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED. PRESENTLY, I LIVE IN MY MOTHER'S CONDO WHICH ISN'T MUCH LARGER THAN MY OLD BEDROOM AND SITTING ROOM, WITH STORAGE BOXES UNDER BEDS, MY CRAFTS, SEWING MACHINES AND HALF MY CLOTHES. MY HUSBAND HAS CUT ME OFF FINANCIALLY BUT I AM GRATEFUL THAT I'VE MADE THIS DECISION. I SHOP IN ALL THE BEST PLACES, TJ MAXX, MARSHALLS, ROSS, WALMART. I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER. MY "X" IS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OF THE MEN I'VE READ ON THIS SITE. I'VE WANTED TO LEAVE FOR YEARS BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS BETTER TO STAY BECAUSE OF THE BOYS. I PLEAD, NO, I BEG, ALL THE LADIES THAT ALLOW YOUR HUSBANDS OR BOYFRIENDS TO ABUSE YOU TO LEAVE. IT ISN'T GOOD FOR THE KIDS NOT TO MENTION, WE SUFFER FROM DEPRESSION, SELF ESTEEM, THOUGHTS OF SUICIDE, ETC. PLAN AND SET GOALS FOR LEAVING. IF YOU HAVE A REALLY GOOD FRIEND, MAYBE THEY WILL HELP SOME. PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING THAN YOU THINK TO HELP, ANSWER QUESTIONS, EXPLAIN SOMETHING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. ISN'T IT BETTER NOT HAVE YOUR STOMACH TURN EVERY TIME YOU HEAR HIS CAR PULL UP TO THE HOUSE, NOT SPEAK FOR FEAR OF HIM YELLING AT YOU, NOT TO HAVE HIM DEGRADE YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN? WHAT DOES IT TAKE FOR US TO REALIZE WE DON'T DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE THE DIRT UNDER THEIR FEET. EVERY WOMAN THAT READS OR WRITES ON THIS SITE UNDERSTANDS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHILDREN. THESE MEN CAN ONLY TREAT US IN THIS MANNER BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT. THEY CAN'T STAND IT THAT WE ARE MORE INTELLIGENT, MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE, BETTER LOOKING THAN THEM, BETTER DRESSERS, BETTER CONVERSATIONALISTS, ETC. THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT TORMENT OTHERS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE NOT SECURE WITHIN THEMSELVES. THIS IS WHY THEY TREAT US IN THIS MANNER. IF IT WASN'T FOR DR. IRENE'S SITE I WOULDN'T BE AS SANE AND HAPPY AS I AM TODAY. NO ONE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH, JUST LIKE YOU, AS IT WAS ALL BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. ON THE OUTSID