Comments for Catbox 49

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

48 is edited.

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Dear Catbox,

I understand that I do not have control over other people and the way they react to me. I understand that it is not my responsibility to fix their problems or to try and convince them of my point of view. And, I have been working for several years to strengthen all areas of my life, emotional, mental and physical, in order to heal from my history of being in abusive relationships.

And yet, I still have problems trusting my own abilities to express myself in an effective and productive manner, and to make healthy emotional connections with other people. For example, I have read several of Asha's recent posts and I felt that I could relate to her situation, so much of what she says sounds familiar to me. So I took a chance at making a connection with her by sharing some of my own story.

Then after I posted, I started to second guess myself (I do this a lot). When I reread her post, I wondered if my response to her was really all that helpful and beneficial. Not that I am being overly concerned with her interpretation and her response (even though I would much rather be friends with you, Asha, than not), in this case, I am being entirely Selfish and wondering about *me* and my ability to be able to connect at all, even in the most basic of ways.

I would like to find some counseling or a support group so that I can practice my one on one skills, however I cannot afford long-term therapy at this time. I tried to go to a DV counselor, and she said that she couldn't understand what the problem is. Arrgh!! Must I go through life feeling as though I am speaking a foreign language that only I can understand? I hope this all makes sense to someone here. I hesitate to post. I know it is not necessarily healthy for me to seek validation from others. Yet, at the same time, how will I ever gain confidence in my ability to communicate with others, if I do not attempt to communicate?

Thank you all for listening. Nellie

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Hi Asha,

I am sorry to hear that you are feeling low. I know what those irrational negative thoughts sound like. A Brazilian would tell you, "Don't worry, it is all going to come out right." I can't tell you how often I have heard that! So I say it to you. You have a good business, you like working with Steve and he likes working with you. Your relationship is going through some changes, which are good changes even if they are hard right now. More projects will come through the door that work out. Your dog and your parents won't be passing on anytime soon. Repeat all these things to yourself every morning when you wake up! Especially when you hear a negative thought, change it right away. And come here and whine away if that's what you feel like doing. Even your whining is interesting and we learn from it! You are every bit the fantastic Asha we know and you get better every day - lately you are seeing the trees and not the forest but soon your view point will broaden again.

And Lisa MM, you too! I'm sorry to hear you were so sad last night! Then you recovered your great sense of humor right away! The sadness comes and goes, you know that. The road only goes *up* for you though. You will get through this and anyway you are already free.

Love, Perdida

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Dear Anne O,

The point is, we are communicating with real people here in the Catbox, and we learn about each other's problems and issues. We relate to each other as friends and colleagues for mutual support. So no, it wouldn't be that much "fun" to all be anonymous for a week. It would be confusing. We are already confused by our abusers. We come here for clarity and mutual support from real people whom we know - some well and trusted, and others new but whom we are eager to know. You can't know Anonymous.

An unidentified post, in the flat world of email, is open for interpretation. Usually someone who doesn't sign their post doesn't wish to be identified - at all - even with a fake name like some of us use here on the site. There have been anonymous posts that were actually kind of nasty and sinister.

The other point that it seems you missed is that several posters have heard the "love and support no matter what" line in an abusive context. This is why "context" is so important. Those words mean something else to abusers: those words mean that the abuser expects his or her partner to accept all their abuse and STILL come back for more. Those same nice words lock the abuser's partner into a confusing world of thinking they are supposed to love a monster who abuses them verbally and/or physically and turns around and expects to be loved.

Seeing an unsigned post with an abuser's words was creepy. Try to see that side of the discussion because it is also important.

Sincerely, Anonymous

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Hi Nellie,

It sounds like you need more confidence!! Maybe people treated you like what you had to say wasn't valuable. Well, that's just not true. If you are very shy, you could take small steps to build up your confidence until you feel like people are relating to you more rewardingly. Start by posting here! Some days you don't get an answer from anyone, but sometimes you get lots. If you identified with Asha and shared your experience, that's important. Keep doing it! That's what we are all here for!

Perdida

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Hello Trubble This is Auntie Mousie The thong sales are going better than expected. Mousie thinks it is time that we open a concession stand. Mousie thinks something healthy like bottled water is all the rage right now. Mousie will hang out by the coke machines and wait for the humans to drop their empty Dasani bottles in the trash. Then Mousie will collect them and bring them to Trubble Beach. Now here is your part. You have to talk FakeMommy into putting your water dish up on a chair. Then you have to sneak into the fish tank and grab the tubing line from the air pump (but do not take all the fish because that will bring attention to the missing tubing). Then bring Mousie the hose and she will show you how to siphon the water from your dish into the bottles for us to sell. If they want different flavors, just save your dish of water that you wash your paws off in while painting. Change the water in between each color. Also be careful not to spill any on you because I don't think FakeMommy will appreciate us having a wet fur contest in her kitchen. Love Auntie Mo' Money Mousie

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Sunday, July 22, 2001

Yep, Doctor Irene and Theressa, et al,

I was definitely reacting emotionally to the now-fairly-famous "love and support" post. The reason was that I was hearing it all again from my ex in his abusive manipulative rendition. Yes, reactive. Got the message.

I've been re-reading the narcissist stuff and it helped me understand why my ex clung to his hollow (to me) self-perception as the Perfect Enlightening Rescuer. He even creates and nurtures serious flaws in his intimate partners so he can be the Selfless Shining Horizon-Broadening Prince. Did I mention I am going through the angry stage?

When I said, STOP laying a guilt trip, STOP running an emotional bait and switch, you're being manipulative, and all the direct confrontational things I said the last couple of days, he did sort of fold just like in "The Secret of Overcoming an Abusive Relationship" as well as in the narcissism pages. Can it be that I did something I never did before? Have I been so restrained, reasonable and polite all this time that he didn't even know I was angry? I actually had never given myself permission to call out the behavior so directly - and I also didn't really have names for it before either.

I think I will lurk for awhile while I process all this - over the weekend when I had to break up with him again 100,000 times it was sort of like All Perdida All the Time here in the Catbox... where was everybody...

I met a new playmate, with a sailboat this time. Good medicine!

 Love, Perdida

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear Nellie

No I didn't take offense to what you said *at all*. I thought it was a warm hearted, thoughtful and caring response, and I really appreciate your encouragement.

I think right now the business projects have been the most draining. It just seems that everything I’ve started lately, in an effort to put some structure and balance in my life, has been falling through. It’s just one of those phases I have to get through. I don't have the kind of work that has me socializing with others, and I'm a social person, so I'm feeling a big hole there. On the other hand, sorting out my work situation comes first over social outings etc so I feel a bit stuck. I feel like if I could get that sorted out, I could create more balance in my life and get involved with other things where I am around people more. My work schedule is unpredictable so that makes it harder to plan for myself too.

When you spoke of the "terrible catastrophe" that's exactly what I have been feeling from time to time - what if *everything* important was stripped away from me? I know this mostly has to do with changing my perspective and knowing I can handle it. I also know this mode I’m in is temporary.

It's true that I look to others (Steve mostly) to "define me" too much. I do crave to be around like-minded people, and to have a sense of belonging. I spend lots of time alone and though I don't feel like rushing off to 'do' something to 'fill the space' , I do get lonely, and I get that “what’s the point of anything” feeling on and off. I feel like I need to create a sense of community in my life though so that I am not so dependent on Steve. There are groups I want to get involved with, but work has taken precedence.

You are right, I do need to nurture my spirit more. I think I'd like to spend more time meditating; I have found that to be really nurturing. I use aromatherapy a lot. If I had the energy I'd spend more time fixing up my place because having a creative environment makes a big difference to me. Lately I just haven't had the energy. Eating healthy foods is something else that makes me feel nurtured (though I dislike cooking). Having structure, keeping my home environment generally clean and organized makes me feel good too, though I can create a lot of pressure on myself in this area. Thanks for getting me thinking - maybe I need to take these kind of things more seriously.

I feel like I've been "doing nothing" forever. Lots of the time when I get feeling drained I just lay on the couch and literally do that. Other than planning the work projects, I haven't really made any major plans for myself in any area. I would like to pursue my creative endeavors (i.e. stained glass, theatre) but I feel like my work situation has to come first, so I don't have the balance I would like.

Finding harmony within myself... where could I get that? Well, I suppose first I could concentrate on getting family expectations of me out of my head (which I am putting there). Maybe just shutting my mind down for awhile and pretending the world outside really *doesn't* exist. Gee wouldn't that be weird....

Thanks for your post Nellie - lots of food for thought.

***

LisaMM

Thanks for your support. Maybe I just need a root beer float and some music. :)

Maybe we feel like we're whining because we're not "supposed" to need any help from anybody. I'm selective about how much dumping I do and where I dump it because I know it can be draining to others. The catbox is where most of it ends up.

***

Jay

Yes I am doing the aromatherapy. Lavender, geranium, and rosewood are some of my favorites. I have ylang ylang too. Here's another good trick - mix your favorites with some almond oil and rub it on your skin - it's just ahh.. I can't explain it, but it's wonderful. The scent lasts along time using the oil.

When you said "do one thong to spoil yourself" I was trying to figure out what a thong was - some kind of deep meditation technique? :) Then I finally realized it was a typo and it was supposed to say "thing". :)

Probably the biggest thing I need to do is change my attitude.

Thanks Jay

Asha

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Steve here

Shucks Irene, you marked Asha's stuff before I could respond. Oh well.

Asha: "when he talks about my “denial” and explains things on your behalf, when he could instead use the catbox to examine his own stuff (which I haven’t seen him do yet)."

Irene: "Agreed."

Harumphhh. You're both wrong.

I don't explain things on Irene's behalf, and I have examined my own stuff COUNTLESS TIMES here.

That's your guys's stuff. And I refuse to feel insulted though I really have all the right in the world.

Asha, the reason I decided not to go to the award thingy was because I had a distinct feeling that you thought you should strike out on your own path, and we shouldn't do things together that are "personal".

I had asked you, the day before, if you wanted to go for a walk with me and my son and you said "no, I don't think we should do those kinds of things" or something to that effect. I thought, that therefore meant, you would rather go without me to that social function. I had a pretty strong feeling that you wanted me to keep away - on a personal level.

Now, to find out you were almost angry with me for doing what you wanted, is quite confusing. Steve: nothing to be confused about. Just accept she feels the way she feels, and it doesn't have to make sense to you.

So, none of that was "my stuff" either. I was doing exactly what you had indicated you wanted. FOR YOU! No Irene, there was no "cancellation" button. Nada. I know where my cancellation button is located.

Asha, I am not interested in *everything* you have to say. You are a much more talkative person than I am. I get very tense when someone is talking to me fast and a lot. I get disoriented and feel the intense desire to escape. It's nothing personal. It's just the way I am. If I don't escape, I tune out. It's some kind of safety mechanism to keep from burning up in someone else's atmosphere.

A bit on FOCUS: To fix *me*, I need to focus on ME. No debate here.

To see how *our relationship* can work, I need to look at both of us. I need to examine the interactions, the obstacles etc.

I spent some rare time recently, deeply analyzing some of our relationship stuff. One of my conclusions was that I had been afraid of your anger, and was treating you with kid gloves. I decided this was unfruitful, and chose to start being more direct with you. Of course I knew this would bring your anger even more, but I believed it was the only way. I still don’t see any other way. I need to relay my observations. You of all people should understand that.

Asha: “pretty much anything I say that he dislikes is denial, a boundary infringement or an expression of my anger/abusiveness.”

This looks like a blanket generality - “ANYTHING I SAY”. Really Asha. You choose to believe this. I understand it to be your defensiveness over-riding your Self. As I said above, I am being direct and saying what I see and feel.  I'm not going here. You're back in the CatBox.

Irene to Asha: “If he's saying this to you, he is out of line.”

I tell her when I feel she is spreading her boundary dome over mine. Is this out of line Irene? I told her she was in denial and she seized upon that. So be it. I believe she IS in denial. I believe most of us are. To varying degrees and on varying issues. If I am wrong about it, then it’s MY STUFF. YOUR STUFF right now is that you can't let her see the world the way she sees it. You hate it when she gets upset with you, and you feel helpless, so you try to show her (and us) how angry or wrong or whatever she really is. You do this one to each other. Steve, let it go. Yes, tell her when you feel she's in her space. If she argues, pull away. Can you pull away lovingly? To give her the space she may need to see what you're talking about? (If you pull away angrily, you just increase the probablity that she will create an angry space for herself, which is to nobody's advantage.)

Asha: “If he feels “yukky” towards me I guess that now justifies it. Anyways, his focus is definitely on me and my "problems", and not on himself. “

That is your opinion Asha. A good example of you “knowing” and telling me what I think. I believe it to be unfortunate, but at the same time, I can empathize because I know how often I felt you were (and still are) focusing on me. Now however, I understand that at times one needs to see the whole of the relationship and that means being *allowed* to move one's focus. I don’t feel that staring at the same rock all day long will help much when the landslide above is getting ripe.

Irene to Asha: “This is disturbing to me.”

If it were true, it would be disturbing to ME! It would mean I was a total idiot and hadn’t learned a thing in the last year. Ouch!

Asha: “I *will* work on improving my communication skills and expectations, but I will *not* take blame for Steve’s yukky feelings, nor his yukky behavior.”

That sounds great to me. My feelings and behaviour are ALWAYS, my stuff. I don’t blame you for them. You shouldn’t either. Now we're talking!

Asha (on the dogs and kids issue I guess): “I think otherwise, it creates a win/lose scenario as a method of problem solving... “

I don’t agree. We do have a difference in philosophy. I believe your dog is your dog. You had him for years. I am a newcomer to him, and he is carbon-bonded to you, not me. I respect that. You ARE responsible for him, not me. And I would never want to change what looks a lot like a natural universal law to me. I have certain thoughts and feelings on how he is handled, but I KNOW he is YOUR dog. I would never feel that “I MUST have equal authority over him or else I would be LOSING”.

Asha: “I find it unhelpful and quite irritating when he talks about my “denial” and explains things on your behalf, when he could instead use the catbox to examine his own stuff (which I haven’t seen him do yet). “

The only reason I mentioned your denial is because I feel it is a serious obstacle in our relationship. I mentioned it because I care. At certain stages in a healing relationship, I think that it is one person or the other who is blocking progress. It changes from person to person, and at times, I am the block, other times it is you Asha. If we could learn to recognize that we each have our own roadblocks we erect, then maybe we could remove them as we bump into them?? But I cannot remove yours and you cannot remove mine. We have to remove our own.

Are you being honest with yourself when you say I haven’t EVER examined my own stuff in the catbox? Maybe you could give some evidence to support that statement? IMO, you are in a defensive mode, and your defense is to attack me. Yes I am being blunt. But I must now. No more kid gloves.

Asha: “I also think I could be more focused on what *I* can do and not what he can do (although that’s tough when he has the authority to do something and I don’t). “

I agree. I am trying to say the same thing to you. I am trying to make you see that there are times when the other person has the ball (authority)...and you’ve done all you can do, short of withdrawing completely. If only the other person could become aware of when they have the ball...Sometimes I have the ball, and sometimes you have it Asha.

Asha: “sometimes he just sits back, waiting for me to change so everything will be “better” – which it won’t – at least for him - if he doesn’t do his part”

May I rephrase that (I think this relates to *the ball* again)?

“Sometimes She just sits back, waiting for Me to change so everything will be “better” – which it won’t, if She doesn’t do Her part.”

Irene: “If Steve takes my comments to reinforce his negative impressions, that's his problem, and trust me, if I see it, I will call him on it. “

I trust you to call me on it Irene. <Smile>. I don’t take your comments to “use against” Asha. If they make sense to me, I will point it out - to help heal our relationship. I cannot ignore valuable, insightful information. To please Asha, you and I would have to make sure we never agree on anything. That cannot be right. It’s getting to the point that I am not allowed to say anything that you may have touched on previously.

And what's this nonsense about me gloating? Jay and Irene - that's your stuff. Here, have it back. It doesn't fit me right now. Maybe I'll need it later. Hmmm...  Steve, we can't see you, but the way you phrase stuff at times has a flavoring of that old angry stuff from the past. Don't get upset; just look at it.

All in good fun, rest assured.

Steve

P.S. - Some of this was written and composed a few days ago, and slightly edited before airtime...

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Steve here

I feel that Asha and I are learning. We appear to be quite committed to this because we keep coming back to the table.

I think we are beginning to allow ourselves to accept setbacks, work through them, and continue moving forward, instead of letting the setbacks set us back, our pre-programmed pattern...

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Thanks so much Dr. Irene for your feedback. I want to clarify that my husband is not violent. Things are much more covert. I said that because of my son's anxiety I had almost mastered not reacting to my husband in front of him. "Almost" and "in front of" being the key words. That just means that I was trying to save it until he was out of earshot. I understand now that some situations (many) should be handled by not reacting at all. If someone's sole purpose is to hurt you, why give them the power? I also understand that his bad moods are not caused by my "inadequacies" but by his. That statement alone is so freeing. I also learned about buttons. I do find that so interesting. It is true that if you can identify yours that you can learn about yourself and what it is that you need to do about yourself to feel better.

I have shared some of this with my husband Josh. He wanted to know all about it. He agreed (almost too well) with what I told him. I asked him if he would go to counseling. He said yes. The first few days it was yes to everything I said but today has been a bit of a different story. He was starting to question me allot about what I was doing. Why don't you do this...why don't you do it this way, etc. I'm refinishing a buffet in out garage (he says his garage) and he acts like I'm making a big mess (which I'm not). He acts like he doesn't like it when I'm working on it. He checks to see if its dripping and on what, did I had used a rag that he was saving and did I move any of his stuff. It's something that I am really enjoying and it's like that bugs him. I bought some lights for our deck today and he told our son that they were dumb. My son says to me in front of Josh, "Should I tell her" and I asked "What?". He said "Dad says that the lights are dumb". I'm surprised that my son spoke up in front of him. Yippeee! My response was "I don't care if he thinks their dumb, I bought them for me not him". Later I thought It would probably have been better to just say "That's fine", but hey I'm new at this stuff. Before I probably would have showed my hurt and anger in some way would have become defensive.

Josh's mother will be babysitting his nieces from out-of-town this week. Tonight they arrived at her house and they came to swim in our pool. You could tell that she did not want to stay long as it was late evening when they arrived. Fine, but she used a maneuver that Josh uses. She mentioned a few times that they weren't going to be staying that long (they'd only been in the pool about 15 minutes) and of course the kids protested. One of the girls came out of the pool over the side instead of using the ladder (after having watched our son do the same). I reminded our son that he needed to use the ladder and BOOM she was up on her feet screeching "That's it out of the pool we're leaving if you can't behave". She waited until they did the first thing wrong so that she could blame them for having to leave rather than have them be mad at her. I stood up and said "It's ok she didn't know, she just saw her cousin do it." That didn't sit to well. This is classic Josh behaviour. Well at least I know where it came from.

My next big questions is this. How should I present all this stuff to my husband. I almost feel guilty about how good I am feeling right now. I have told him quite a bit but have a feeling he's going to hit a limit on listening pretty soon. Stay firm, but benign. Stand your ground. You're doing well.

Thank you Dr. Irene for your advice and Thank you for this site.

Norma

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear L,

Thank you so much for the comforting post. You offered me some good stuff to think about. Your right I am making a healthy choice not to stay in this toxic environment. I am protecting the children from my husband's addictions and behaviors. I won't forget to mention that I was also teaching them to be codependent and not stand up to him. We do feel so much more relaxed now that the initial shock is over. We are establishing our own routine. It's much more quiet. My son did comment that I may need a little rest because I was not patient with my 5 year old today when she threw a dish sponge across the room (she needs impulse control). I know this takes time to develop but oh my has she been testing me lately. I was tired and my feet were hurting. I snapped, "That is it. I am tired of you making a mess in this house!" Oh, I was sorry immediately after it came flying out of my mouth. She just picked the sponge up and wiped up. I apologized for overreacting. I calmly explained that she may want to think before she throws something and the consequences of her actions. My son smiled and said he would help clean up the dishes.

I am feeling a little bit better today. You know you are right I am going back in forth in between the grief and acceptance. I will keep a copy of your post to remind me that this stuff is normal. There are times that I wonder if I am going to end up in a hospital bed to take a little needed rest. I just have to learn to go with it and take the time to learn how to comfort myself in a healthy way.

You are so right. I am feeling overwhelmed at the moment. I feel like I worked so hard on trying to keep this family together. I was willing to do whatever it takes. I felt that burnout and resentment too. I felt like I had 3 children in the house. I keep looking back at how much I did accomplish. I did the best I could considering. Oh, I am not going to miss that chaos!

I participate on the Ouchhh mailing list and here to vent. I start feeling empowered and ready to take on the world then all the sudden it hits me again! I can't skip any of the stages. I know I will come back stronger. I just to have to stop the bargaining. I like Asha's "Reality Fairy". Yep, I need her help too ;)

My son was experiencing the depression and anxiety too. I am glad that I did stop this before we lost touch with him. Oh boy he was starting to act out and build that wall. My husband denies that anything was wrong. He made a comment last week "You are the one who is home with the children during the day."

I know now that at least I will have 80% more influence during the week with my children. My son is learning how to trust me and open up to communicate his feelings. He feels safe now. I feel bad for not always being emotionally available lately. I was trying so hard to endure but I wasn't feeling much. I am just clearing the FOG out of my head. Now I need to learn to balance my personal space and time with them. The goal is to teach them to accept responsibility for their actions and build that character.

I started thinking. My mom must have given in to me all the time. I do not like to fail or give up on anything. I am pretty darn persistent. I am wasting my energy on someone that is obviously not in a place where he is willing to accept responsibility. I have to learn to accept this like it or not.

Thanks L !!! I will stay focused on those baby steps....

LisaMM

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Asha,

I too get very excited and want to share. I feel a roll coming on, overwhelming so happy. I just want to share it, anyone who will listen. THOUGH GORDON a while back said this "No one else is inside your head, no one else is gonna experience things in the same way you do. Your excitement may just be that. YES SHARE but you can't expect every person to feel the same level of excitement as you. "

It is like when you hear a joke and at that moment it has you falling about laughing. BUT when you share it with someone else they just don't see the funny side. IT Is the moment that is important."

Asha depending on how Steve is feeling at any given time, or how anyone else is feeling or what issues they are currently working on so are sensitive. What mood they are in, will depend how they respond to you.

THIS is not about you, it is about them at these times. Maybe they feel down fed up and find it hard to perk up firstly perhaps because they feel down about their own stuff and secondly they may feel even more down fed up when they see their own life at that particular moment in comparison to yours.

I guess we just have to accept sometimes others are unavailable at that time to share our happiness because they are stuck in another place.

USE your sane options come to cat box and share you good news, this way STEVE will hear about it and can read it in his own time and you'll have shared your joy with all of us here.

I know sometimes we wish others were available like the old street corner shops (open all hours) but I guess no one can be, they always have their own priorities which may feel more important to them at that time. Also irrationally if I am in a bad mood and someone says something cheerful I might feel they are taking away my right to be sad.

Like the other day I felt sensitive and when I read the posts here I reacted. I knew I felt down and sensitive when I saw myself react and then read over my post. I wanted the universe to not let it go through, but it did. SO I dusted myself and got up and carried on.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Hi All,

I got allot out of Asha's posts and Doc's blue pencil.

Asha I interpreted Doc's saying "Every decision is a big one" As saying something like. Every decision is a big one. Whatever decision you make effects your life in some way!!

When we are reactionary we don't stop to think about things we just respond. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us. Like when we act out.

For many years I used to show my anger in my tone of voice and my facial expressions. I was so reactive! (still am giggle at times!!) I think it is in When Words Hurt book that the author says the intent shines through. It isn't the words that impact it is the intent.

The response you get is the meaning of your message to the other person. (Mindworks a good book also comments on this), Intent/motive etc SO if I say "I am not bothered" when really I am livid the other picks up the intent regardless of the words.

Further I understand the connection between this above and you taking care of others:

What happens to me: My partner will speak to me about an issue, problem he is having. Then my mind starts to work over time and I start to leave my own life and work out what he could do...

Where I see the connection is "THINKING" before we ACT, instead of reacting. If I could stop my thoughts and think is this my business?

I wouldn't react and start fixing others, in the same breathe if I could stop and do nothing and think how what just happened effected me, what issues it brought up, then the is it true questions etc. Then I would not react.

It all boils down to REACTIONARY. Instead of stopping and thinking is this really what I want to do? Bingo.

In Codependent No More:  this is all explained.

Take care I too at times feel down. I think it is especially when I can't control others. I can't hurry them up. I can't get them to move forward. They just aren't ready.

In me is a desire to have things right. To not be scared of risking rejection (I will discuss this in my next post), to have my partner want my hugs, to chat, to listen to me. To share my excitement. In a perfect world, he'd come home and listen to me and I'd feel loved and wanted.

Sometimes this wish is so far off. Other times I feel maddened by the fact that I can't come home and just talk to him like I would a friend sharing all my problems, views, days events.

Though DOC can you clarify. Is this realistic??? To have a partner who listens to you, whenever you have an issue??? OR Is this expecting a counselor instead of a partner??? This is realistic if it in is a give and take relationship.

You see Ron always listened to me. BUT he was my counselor is it too much to ask a partner to do this??? Ron was not emotionally involved, so, yes, it is too much to ask that your partner be there when you want him to be there. There should be a mutuality.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, July 23, 2001

I am on a roll, it is Monday morning quarter backs, question time LOL!!!

I am a little confused maybe someone can clarify.

When people says they have their emotional needs met what do they mean? I don't know what people mean since each person means something different. Your job is to meet your own needs.

Do they mean they share all their feelings, reactions, emotions?

Isn't this a recipe for disaster?

As Michelle on Divorcebusters once said "We get emotions every minute of the day, and also they can change from minute to minute, sometimes it is not worth sharing our anger at the fact someone did a small thing, if we did stop and share every emotion we'd have no one married, since everyone would be feeling overwhelmed.

Some times it is better to filter out which ones are the most important things and then share only them.

If you have a big issue then you can share and voice it." **

So this confuses me! When people say they are emotionally close as well as physically, spiritually etc and not just physically, what do they mean?

Ron said I should be emotionally honest with myself. know what I am feeling and that way I can work on the issue, check if it is true etc.

Though does this mean I should be emotionally honest about every thing that happens. Is this necessary?

Wouldn't this drain the other person? After all they are not my counselor!!

Is the goal to have our spouses take the role of our counselor??

Thanks Theressa

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Hi All,

Now for my button. (Dr Irene, drat you found it!!!) Trubble I told you to hide this button, your FakeMommy wasn't suppose to see this flawed part of perfect little me. Lol. Will others still love me, now they see how flawed I am? Oh well who cares, I love me.

YES Doc I have a big, big gigantic button called "Please don't reject me, my advice, my views, my thoughts, DON'T reject me. Oh please don't, I will do anything but don't reject me. I can't stand it, please, please don't go, don't go away, I am begging you to stay"

YES I am trying to handle it. I have come up with a new strategy, well being honest I stole it from Jay, she doesn't know yet, so Trubble keep quiet, don't tell her.

I feel I need to focus on doing something, I can't just sit and do nothing. SO I have started to pray. This makes it feel better if I can discuss it with someone. (GOD/Universe)

Though the old way I used to feel better was to EAT, EAT, EAT and even when I felt full, I still felt empty emotionally. Sometimes I feel stuck!!! Because I can't force others to want things to be so good....

As you see from my post above, I am in limbo about what I should expect from a relationship???

I don't want to reach for the sky when the roof tops are all that is possible and realistic.

I feel anxious when my partner doesn't come around, and YES I keep busy but the feelings are still there. WHEN he eventually comes around It feels like someone took the anxiety away. (and they have!!) Sit with the feelings and deal with them.

SO WHAT IS BEING EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE???

It is fine people saying "Death of a dream" but what to replace it with??? (Come on trubble you know how to be healthy, what is the goal???? After we've weathered the storm and realised what we've got is not a lot of what we want, how do we get to know what is realistic to expect? from another person?? In a healthy way??

I know we have choices, but what if we aren't sure what are realistic choices??

Take care, Theressa

PS when I first started out I had no road map, I went off track many times. THEN on this site I found a road map, and many people to help me steer in the right track.

Is there one for realistic expectations? can any one share the contents??  Realistic expectations happen when each person takes care of their Self.

I can't afford high fees, but I will send you lots of love.

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Monday, July 23, 2001

I think this is great, maybe it will help others:

by Kim Droze, Senior Writer

Do you feel that no matter how hard you try you just can't seem to get into the proper frame of mind?

Sure, you go through the motions. But all the while you wishing you were somewhere else.

If this scenario fits your mental approach to life there's a good chance you aren't taking advantage of your life force energy. Chi -- a concept foreign to many of us -- has been around for thousands of years. Extremely popular in India, China and other Eastern nations, chi offers a full range of benefits.

Proponents say it is the source of our strength. And that strength could be anything from the energy we call on to workout or the discipline we rely on to fight off food cravings or co-dependency traits. We all have chi. But to tap into it you must first look within.

That's where Chi Fitness (HarperCollins) authors Sue Benton and Drew Denbaum come in.

According to this energetic husband and wife team, you can harness chi to work for you in just about any facet of your life -- from weight loss to relationships. The key is knowing how to plug into your personal energy center.

The whole concept may sound a bit New Age. But when you break it down to a few basics, Chi Fitness is simply about shattering the psychological barriers that are holding you back.

Chi can be especially helpful for those struggling to stay motivated to Get rid of co-dependency traits.

"You don't need to get caught up in feeling bad over where you're at and apply all kinds of negativity," Sue tells us. "That gives away the power and energy needed for present transformations and growth.

"Once you understand the concept and take it into your heart and mind, you feel so much better about where you are or who you are in terms of shape of body and overall being. Then you've empowered yourself to go where you want to go."

The goal is to put your energy back in your body. Through a few simple exercises and meditations found in Chi Fitness you can improve your mental and physical health.

"We want to make people conscious of where they are putting their energy and show that it's possible to have a physical experience of chi in your body," says Sue, the founder and president of Chi Fitness. "Then you can feel where you're giving away your energy inappropriately.

"The key to Chi Fitness is becoming aware of this energy so you can manage and direct it in your life for self-empowerment."

The chi exercises alone won't modify you. However, they will help your growth plan endeavors.

So listen up emotional eaters. When you get upset with a person or situation, you give away your power. That leaves you devoid of the energy you need... emotionally, physically and spiritually.

For many that feeling is a calling card for a binge rage or go into depression. But chi enables you to relax and redirect that energy in a positive way.

Chi can also help guide you down the right path to getting started with A new life regimen that works. Instead of concentrating on image (material things), you must focus your energy on a healthy life, mind, body and spirit.

Here are two simple exercises that you can get started in achieving a peaceful, easy feeling:

Chi Ball Exercise 1. Stand with your feet about hip distance apart. Straighten the spine by lifting up the crown of the head and gently pressing down the tailbone. Notice that when you straighten the spine you automatically take a deep breath and create more space in your body. All the joints should be soft and relaxed: knees, hips, elbows, shoulders and ankles.

2. Bend the knees slightly over the toes.

3. Draw your hands up to waist level with the palms facing each other.

4. Relax your fingers and bring your awareness to the palms of your hands. Imagine that you are holding a ball of energy.

Soon you will feel a tingling sensation, heat or a vibration between the palms of your hands. As you begin to sense the chi between your hands visualize it as a ball of energy.

Heart Chakra 1. Assume a sitting position. Lift up through the crown of the head and gently press down through the tailbone, lengthening the spine. Relax into that length.

2. Inhale and exhale, opening and closing the chest and the shoulder blades. As you breathe in, expand the chest. Bring the shoulder blades together, allowing the head naturally to fall back as you expand the heart center forward. Imagine the color green. Allow your shoulders to stay relaxed as you gently press the shoulder blades together. Leading with the center of the chest, the rest of your body moves from that point of power.

3. Exhale, open up the shoulder blades and close up the chest, letting the head naturally fall forward, opening the heart center from the back of the body.

Just as you expand the heart center forward with the rest of your body following that point of power, when you lead and take action with the intention of love, the rest of your life falls into place with natural ease and harmony.

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Nellie,

Why do you think you second guess yourself? Approval perhaps? You want others to tell you, you are okay maybe?

Nellie when you can say to yourself "I am doing the best I can right now and my contribution is worthy because God/universe is allowing me to give it then it is really just fine for where I am at."

Trust that everything happens for a reason.

Why do you think what you are saying is not okay?

Aren't your views just as valid as anyone else's? They are your views that is it, it is okay to have your views!!

Asha and anyone else can look at your views and say "They are Nellie's views" and that is what they are. There is nothing wrong in YOUR viewpoint it just is your viewpoint for the time you gave it.

Let go of the need to worry how others will respond and just share your views. You can say "I think xxxx" and others can agree or disagree but it is still your viewpoint, nothing can change what you said. 

It is when I think we say "THIS IS THE ONLY REALITY, mine and we become defensive."

Nellie, sometimes we feel we haven't grown but we are growing on different levels so it feels like we haven't. The lessons keep coming until they are learnt.

Learn it is okay to give your viewpoint and then let go, knowing the universe allowed it cuz it was meant to be.

So when you give to someone else let go. Imagine your giving it to the universe and imagine you are giving and you will also receive.

Well really there is no imagine about it, you really do receive more when you give what you have.

(This is not the same as giving until it hurts, the kind I am talking about is giving when you can freely, when it doesn't hurt, IT isn't giving when you are ill, or have other plans, or are far to tired, or just don't feel up to it.)

Take care Theressa

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear all,

Anonymous here for a week,

I liked the idea of being anonymous for a week to see what happens so......guess who?????

No new sightings on Dr. "fill-in-the-blank" other than the fact that I received a phone hang up Saturday morning at 4:45 am. That really upset me as I've been sleep deprived lately! I know he wanted a reaction - although I'm wondering if it was his naked friend. Dr. "fill-in-the-blank" left that morning to go to S. California to see his parents since it was his birthday, so he was gone the whole weekend. How convenient to call my house then leave for the weekend. No one else has my phone number these days. Certainly none of these thugs I've been meeting! Oh well, these 2 guys were thugs too!

So, I've been keeping to myself, having quiet, serene times, napping, reading, eating well, walking and really just getting in touch with reality that it is time that heals and if we nurture ourselves and be patient, that you'll hear and feel the gifts that God gives us. I'm just taking my time these days to truly stop and smell the roses. I've also been very 'in tune' with my mother who has cancer. I'm blessed that she is still with us and hoping the best for her recent test as it has invaded her liver. I moved in January to be 2 minutes away from my parents and I make sure I go over there every day.

The only thing I'd like to change is my job. I am not challenged and I do not like retirement law. I would rather get into something more program-orientated - but retirement law is too cut and dry. So, that is on my agenda for the next few months. Plus I work for an absolute idiot. He drives me crazy with his management style. He gets too personal, too emotional and he lacks self-confidence so he projects it. He told me a year or so ago that he wanted me to be his confidante. So I was, then he went psycho on me one day. No more being in that role!

Have a great day! (smile)

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear all,

Sharon here,

That was fun being anonymous - but I'm sure you knew who it was!

I came back to re-post after reading the last few posts, and decided that it isn't right to do the anonymous thing although it is somebody's prerogative if they want to. Its just not *me*. Though I have a sense of humor, I do take these matters seriously when it comes to other people and relationships.

Love, Sharon

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Steve here

Theressa, you are full of insightful thoughts and information.

I like the way you explain the "emotionally available" type stuff. It's so true. We can't be open 24/7/360. Everyone has different hours and sometimes we need to just close the store for a few days or weeks. If we can understand how WE cannot be always open, how emotionally draining it is, then we can understand that others are the same way, in varying degrees.

It's an energy/physics principle I think. Accepting someone else's emotions has a toll in your own energy level. If you get too much, you may do like I do and shut down. I think I am just protecting my brain from frying up. Maybe if I had a jar that I could just yell into once in awhile...hehe.

It's an interesting feeling when you have a bunch of excitement and wish to share it, but can't find anyone who'll relate to your information. Even if someone is "available", they still might not see the same "value" in your ideas/thoughts.

People ARE like thermometers. They do give off cues as to the state of their emotional acceptance level. When they are reaching saturation, the cues are usually pretty clear - *if* we are willing to see them and not take them personally.

We have to be OK when someone can't accept our energy. To require someone else to be ready when we are, is definitely going into their boundaries. IMO.

Steve

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear Steve,

What about the other five days? I need you THEN, TOO. Love, Anonymous Giggle!

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear Sharon,

I didn't know that about your mother, and I am really sorry to hear that. I will stop pestering you to move away from Dr. What's-his-name. I see now why you don't. My thoughts and prayers are with your mom.

Love, Anonymous

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Thank you Theresa!!

Love, Sharon

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Or........was it Perdida?

Thank you Perdida!

Love, Sharon

(I know that Jay already knew about my mom...so it couldn't have been Jay!)

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Or.....could it be Asha???

Thank you Asha!!

Love, Sharon

hhhmmmmmmmm I'm not sure if I like this anonymous stuff!!!!

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Or.....could it be Trubble??? Always a possibility, heheheh

Thank you Trubble!!

Love, Sharon

hhhmmmmmmmm I'm not sure if I like this anonymous stuff!!!!

giggle!

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Yes, thank you for posting your kindness about my mom. It has been tremendously hard to go through since she is truly my best friend.

Her only symptom was pain. We rushed her to the emergency room in February, 2000 only to find out she had advanced colon cancer. They removed the cancerous part plus 6 adjacent lymph nodes, then underwent chemo for 6 months and nearly died in the middle of the treatment due to severe dehydration. Then in December 2000, it had spread to her liver. They did a liver resection in March 2001 and removed these 2 cancerous lesions and she is now back in chemo. She's doing as well to be expected, and she goes in for another cat scan next week to take a picture of her liver to see 'what's what.' Needless to say, it has been rough for her. So, in January 2001 I moved back in the neighborhood that I grew up in (unfortunately the same neighborhood as Dr. Psycho man and his naked friend). So, this neighborhood are my roots, and I despise the fact that he lives a second away! Though time is helping me through this.....I just have to stay strong and centered for my mom, as reality is what reality is....though I'm hoping and praying otherwise....she's only 65 and looks 50. She's still a very attractive woman, inside and out. So, I cry a little bit about it and still thank the Lord that she's still here.

4 days after we got word that it spread to her liver -- which was 1 week before Christmas - Dr. Psycho broke up with me saying that he couldn't do 2 holidays in a row with the same woman. Remember that? That was the most evil thing someone's ever done to me. I'll NEVER forgive him for that!

Love, Sharon

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Wow, Sharon. All this time, I never knew. I would be VERY angry at Dr. Psycho! In fact, I HATE him on your behalf! :) (I guess that's codependent...)

No, you can't move from your own turf. That would be too much to give up! I used to ask you why you didn't move and it makes total sense now. I am so sorry about your mom! :( Hang in there and enjoy your time with her.

Love, Perdida

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Dear Perdida,

Yes, thanks, I really, really hate him too. I think I also shared with via post months ago the following scenario:

I was on the phone with him last May 2000 and I was crying about her, losing her through cancer, and then I said "and I'm about to lose you too" (meaning Dr. Psycho) because we were in the process of breaking up. And he says "well, at least you have your girlfriends, Claire and Evelyn unless they dumped you too - but then you'll always have your TV set."

I thought that was the weirdest, meanest thing anybody could ever say to me. In fact, of all of my 46 years of life, I have never met a more meaner human being in my entire life. I'm serious! Dr. Psycho was mean and cruel. He is bizarre. I've never met a more disturbed individual in my life. And what I've written in these posts in only the tip of the iceberg.

So, thanks for your support, Perdida. I think the reason why Dr. Psycho could not be emotional supportive for me in a time like this is because of fear. Death scares him anyway, and he's such an immature man, 53 y/o going on 12, he can't handle any type of emotional stress. However, he has no problem inflicting it on others. He just can't step up to the plate to help anyone else. Though he sure likes his own needs met!!!!!! (if you get my drift...) and this man is a psychologist (unlicensed remember!) hahahahah Hehehehe! 

Love, Sharon  

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Perdida,

Thank you for the warm welcome! I will try posting more often and see if that helps.

Take care. Nellie

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Asha,

Thank you for writing back to me. I'm glad to hear that you were not offended. The things that you talk about sound so much like what I have been going through lately. I do freelance work, and like you, I spend a lot of time alone and my schedule is very unpredictable. A while back, I had a couple of large projects fall through, which was really difficult for me because I was really counting on them. Counting on getting the sense a satisfaction from a job well done, and counting on having the security of money in the bank. I didn't get either, and that was really tough. I thought it was just a matter of terrible timing.

And then I began to wonder if the "universe" was trying to tell me something. I know that when I get started on these projects, I can become obsessed with them almost to the point neglecting other important things in my life (like myself!), and that the deadlines and dealing with the demanding (and sometimes downright abusive!) clients can really take a toll on my peace of mind. Could it be that this was a not so gentle hint for me to slow down and concentrate on other things?

I would really like to have more of a sense of "community" in my life as well. In the past I have limited myself to a few select people, and unfortunately most have them have been abusive. I'm used to being alone, so it doesn't really bother me. It is safe. Sometimes though, I do get lonely, and I would like to socialize more. It's just my lack of confidence that is holding me back... I get so frustrated and think I should "just do it." I can, and I have just done it. It is the second guessing that it hurting me. How do I make it go away?

My version of "doing nothing" could probably be more accurately described as "doing something." That is, doing something with your hands and your "spirit." I too, have spent a lot of hours on the couch feeling drained. So much time that the cushions have gotten lopsided. LOL! Sometimes I am physically tired, so that's OK. It is when I am emotionally and mentally drained that I have to literally pick myself up and "do something!" Cleaning and organizing is great. Sometimes I think of it as chasing away the evil spirits, and that puts a smile on my face. Eating healthy foods is very nurturing. I have found that some foods can cause mood swings and irritability, so I eat wholesome foods as much as possible. Although, I'm not very fond of cooking either. :)

My very favorite thing to do is flower gardening. I don't really have to give it any thought, It just comes naturally to me. I'm not really sure why. My grandparents were farmers - maybe it's genetic? After I've spent time in my garden, even if it is just a few minutes, I feel somehow more alive and energized. It's as though it adds energy to my spirit and body, instead of draining it away. I get the same mental benefits from it as I do from meditating, and even if I happen to think about things or feel things that bother me, I am not drained from the experience. Another hint from the "universe"?

I think of gardening as my gift and I am grateful to have this ability. It's been my experience that one must not underestimate the power that can come from honoring their own unique and special "gift." Find you gift and honor it, Asha, and you will find harmony within yourself.

Gotta go now. Take care. Nellie

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Theressa,

Thank you for your very wise and thoughtful advice. I'm going to take a break now and think about it. I will post more later.

Thanks. Nellie

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Hi Catbox, I've been lurking for some time now. I wanted to comment on the saying mean things. I have often wondered if it's just inevitable that our partners will say the meanest stuff that we will hear in our lives (and maybe us to them) because they are the ones we live with and deal with the most. Or if that is just an excuse. I know I've said some mean things to by ex. But, wow, did he EVER say some mean things to me. For instance, the night I decided to leave him, he said that "He only began dating me again because he was drunk." That did me in. I finally faced reality then. On the other hand, my best friend, who has a lot of mutuality and goodwill going on in her marriage, has had her hubby say horrible things to her too. But they talk about it and work it out and he doesn't repeat it and tries to stay out of situations that tend to get him in a nasty mood. (He did it when he was very drunk.) What my BF hubby did tell my BF he hated her and took her wedding ring off and flushed it down the toilet. This was the culmination of a BIG argument, nevertheless, I was shocked off my seat when she told me about it. Yet, they worked past it. It took some time and he replaced the ring but yet.... That's why I think that even in good marriages really mean things are sometimes said/done. It's just the frequency and the aftermath and the overall attitude the couple has for each other that makes a difference. I have enjoyed the CatBox discussion and hope to become more involved.

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Catbox, Oh I forgot to sign my post above (mean things). sorry!!! --DJ

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Catbox, Oh I forgot to sign my post above (mean things). Not intentional, I swear. Giggle. --DJ

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Hi Dr. Irene- Thank you for your reply to my post on July 20th about my controlling husband. Ever since I've known my husband he is always under a lot of stress (from worrying about everything in his world and outside his world). For many years he gets itchy rashes all over his body due to this pressure he is under. I used to be aware of this and always try to anticipate his moods when he came home or be understanding when he had a bad day but I finally realized that if he could control himself around people during the day and portray a happy congenial person, then he could certainly do the same for me and that's when I started getting the wake up call that I wasn't being treated the way I deserve. On Saturday night we were watching TV and as usual he started making derogatory comments about some women on TV. It really gets his goat to see women who are strong - portrayed in power positions or hearing about actresses who have babies and aren't married (in other words a woman who thinks she can live without a man). I've told him to stop making these comments in by presence because I get uncomfortable especially since I NEVER make any blanket statements about men. But, when he continues I always leave the room and do my own thing. I need a suggestion on how to respond to my husband who is very articulate and an excellent debater. Once, a judge even told him he should have been an attorney he is so good with words. I've even used some of the responses listed on your site on how to respond to abuse. For instance if he stated "that I didn't have a sense of humor" I would respond and say "that's right" and walk away, then he follows me and further asks "Why don't you?" and then I'm left to explain. "Because." If I answer any abusive question with a short "yes or no" he continues to ask me questions like "why are you this way?" "Because." or "why to you think like that?" "Because." Before, I first posted to this site I even thought in my mind now how would Dr. Irene respond when an incident like this happened, but I always get stuck. These are skills that take a while to learn. Keep practicing after the fact! Thank you very much!!! Susann

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Monday, July 23, 2001

Susann,

The Doc's previous advice is still good for all of this. The reason that you (in your husband's view) "don't have a sense of humor" is "Because we're different." And probably incompatible! Since he sees women as different, if all else fails, tell him it's because you're a woman, and if he wanted a perfect mate for himself he should have married another man. In a good marriage it would be worth looking at yourselves and sharing how and why you're different, what you laugh at and what you don't, but with your husband this may not be fruitful. He may not want to know, only to shape you into some image of his own, which isn't who you are. It's worth asking why he doesn't have a sense of humor himself, why he can't laugh at life instead of worrying himself into a huge rash, and why he can't laugh at your differences, but it probably won't get you anywhere to ask him that. Ask yourself that instead and use it to bolster your own self image. Do it while you enjoy browsing the mall.

Pick your fights too. If he picks a fight with a third party, women in power positions or actresses having fatherless babies, why would you want to step in the firing line and take the flak? Take the Doc's advice instead. Agree with him. Or ask him why he dislikes them and let him vent his objections on them instead. It's a waste of your energy to defend outsiders to him. You need your energy to take care of yourself. Happy shopping!

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Sharon,

I'm so sorry about your mom. I have not gone through anything like that yet, but can imagine what it must be like. Dr. Psycho sounds like my husband's just-as- evil twin! Mean vicious remarks ore my H's specialty, and he always looks so smug like he's done something so clever! And of course it's my fault he's so mean--with a "better" woman he wouldn't have to be that way!! You are well rid of him. Just remember that he WILL be cosmically punished if he doesn't change his ways!

Good thoughts for you and your mom----  Yes. And prayers.

Becky

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Hi Trubble, That salmon looks good -- glad you are out of the catbox. *giggle*

Ms. Friday

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Oh Trubble Mousie just saw our picture with the tuna cookies. Mousie looks so young and slim in that picture. It must be extreme digital remastering or there is something fishy in those tuna cookies. Where did you get tuna cookies? Mousie only knows how to make instant pudding and nuke anything frozen. Most people call it cooking but Mousie thinks of it as eradicating salmonella. Well Dusty has agreed to be your grandma and she will knit you some baby booties and of course you will tell her how wonderful they are since she can't see you making them into spitballs and launching them at the squirrels. Actually for an old lady she can still go flying through the house and jump up on the window sill even after she had cancer last year. So you got a pretty lively granny if you ever want to curtain climb or practice Cat-rate on her toy mousies. Thank you for leaving Mousie the mousie traps in the will. She is going to put them on her music stand to catch her music if it tries to blow away. Of course if it is too hard for Mousie to play, she will sabotage the mousie trap so it doesn't work and the music blows away just as it gets to the parts where they just cram way too many notes in one measure. It looks like a fly reunion and serves no purpose other than to increase fly paper sales and boost the economy. So you are out of the cathouse or doghouse or whatever you were in. Can Mousie sublease it to a couple of porcupines that are in town to work as nail beds for those snake charmer guys that stay overnight on their way to the "we don't have any art but wanted to have a fair anyway so we could eat junk American food instead of mush in a can" fair. Maybe Dusty is my RealMommy?

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Dear Catbox, I'm hoping to find some advice on helping my daughter with her abusive husband. She is young,(21) going to school fulltime and trying to decide if she should give him yet another chance. I have read all through numerous sites on the I-net and this one seems to have a lot of caring people who have been through this sort of thing. Me, her siblings and her friends have said all we can say...we've talked till we are blue in the face and there she goes back to him. I don't know how to make her understand that he is not going to change. What do I do or say? Please help me someone!! Thanks a bunch, Ginjane Send her here. That's all you can do. That and buy her a copy of The Verbally Abusive Relationship .

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Nellie

Oh my gosh we must be in the same industry! I bet Steve would relate to what you are saying too.

I think I have been given the same message you spoke of about slowing down and refocusing. Sometimes, when I was ready to give up, a new project would just keep me hanging on. Then I'd be ready to give up again.. and another one would happen.

Strangely, as this one project just looked like it had fallen through, I got a phone call today saying that it looks promising again. I'm not getting my hopes up so much this time, but I'll give it my best shot.

I think working alone *can* be lonely. For years I worked in an office with other people, and I really enjoyed the social aspect of it. It's easier when you are in an office to meet people and make friends just naturally. It takes "effort" when you aren't in that situation. Still, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I didn't love it.

I think some people think I'm nuts for being self-employed when there are so many ups and downs. I think my family worry about me too and that just adds to the pressure! That's why I need to just get everyone out of my head and do what's right for me. Even if that does mean doing absolutely nothing! Bingo!

Gardening is wonderful isn't it? I have a big garden and sometimes I have a hard time giving myself the privilege to do the things I like that until my work projects are underway. It's all part of how when one part of my life isn't balanced it seems to affect all the other parts.

Steve's very nurturing to plants. He takes extra-good care of them, when half the time I forget (or just don't care enough) and let things in the garden die.

Nellie, I wonder what thought process is going on that has you second guessing yourself? I'll bet it's some kind of irrational thinking that is "correctable". Maybe it's the common - "rejection is dangerous" thinking? I just read your post from Bravenet and I'll bet you know the connection.

take care

Asha

***

Theressa

I think Dr. Irene was a bit annoyed with me when she posted that now “infamous” line to me (wink). That’s okay because I *can* be annoying. And I'm not mad about the comment any*more* ('nother wink) My interpretation of it was probably a lot worse than what she intended in any case.

I must be ahead of you in the rejection domain (giggle) because my button is “reject me if you want, as long as it's for the "right" reasons". :) Giggle!

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Perdida

Thanks for the positive thoughts! Anonymous poster hah! Your style is a dead giveaway! I thought you were impersonating me for a minute with the 5 days thing (so that rules me out for sure Sharon).

I like what you said about changing negative thoughts right away. Someone mentioned the book "Conversations with God" and there was one section that I really liked on this topic. Here it is:

"When you catch yourself thinking negative thought – thoughts that negate your highest idea about a thing – think again! I want you to do this, literally If you think you are in a doldrums, in a pickle, and no good can come of this, think again. If you think the world is a bad place, filled with negative events, think again. If you think your life is falling apart, and it looks as if you’ll never get it back together again, think again. You can train yourself to do this. (Look how well you’ve trained yourself not to do it!)"

~Conversations with God – Neale Donald Walsch

Cool huh?

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Steve

Just a couple of things - it's interesting how our perspectives were so different on that social function cancellation. I know I'm giving a lot of mixed messages, because I *am* mixed. I thought of it as a work related thing, and that's how I was dividing things in my mind - work/personal. More stuff to work on Asha: No need to be hung on up expectations. These are just various attempts to control the environemnt / know what's coming / make it safe / lessen anxiety. You'll never be able to do that.. Life happens, junk happens. Your best bet: Notice your own anxiety, discomfort, whatever and sit with it. Learn to deal with the feelings. Accept the feelings. If you accept the discomfort of not knowing, the junk that is thrown your way at each step is no longer yukky....

I'm still afraid to get too close, because first, I know that you don't have the time and energy to work on the relationship right now, and second, I really do want to have a counselor or somewhere to turn so we can consciously work on resolving the issues that come up again and again. When and if you are ready at some point...

I have many thoughts about the win/lose YOUR dog/MY dog stuff but I'm going to leave it for now. If we use those kindergarten rules and agree not to blame, and that we are both willing to resolve the problem, then there might be a way to work it out. It comes down to how *badly* both of us want to resolve the problem, and whether we are focusing on "blame" or resolution. Good. Also, fair warning to both of you: Talk about the Self. Don't complain about other.  (Some common attempts to circumvent this rule include: "I feel that when so and so does this and that..." Giggle!)

***

Finally - Dr. Irene

Thank you for the loads of "blue pencil". I will ponder what you said and take some time to absorb it all.

If I'm really as much of a pain in the butt as I think I am to you, then I guess I don't know why you would waste so much time on me. Giggle!

thanks

***

Enough for now. Don't know how much I'll be posting for the next little while 'cause work beckons me...

take care all

Asha

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Dr. Irene,

Thank you so much for your advice. I will definitely try to stay focused on what I can change. I feel like I am under this spell to just go "fix". I really need to look at what was causing my anger, acting out, and find that inner peace for myself. I can't do it with him self-destructing every 5 minutes with in my view. I can not tell you how distracting it has been. However, I know I still need to master detaching and ignore the yukky stuff especially since "we have only just begun" with the alcohol disease taking over him. He is becoming more obsessed and angry now that he can't dump his load on me. He is bound to hit the bottom and bounce up, and hit again. I need to stay out of the way. I just can't watch. It's terrible I want to swoop in and save him. At this point he doesn't even want my help. I will "sit with my feelings" and figure out what I can do that's more helpful. Instead of enabling. All you can do is deal with your own discomfort of wanting to "help" and knowing it's not helpful. Do nothing and sit with it. It took me a couple of weeks to figure out that as long as I engaged I was keeping the cycle going (for both of us). I think I caught on now. The truth will show in my actions this week. :)

Thanks again!!

LisaMM

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Theressa,

I was wondering what a normal healthy relationship is suppose to feel like. I know what it's not now. This definitely is not it for me.

I always admired those couples that expressed this unspoken respect and admiration for each other. I figured I had something wrong with me or did not deserve any better. I was looking for mutual respect. I was completely lost.

I would support my husband traveling and trying out new experiences when we started dating. When my husband was younger he rode his bike to Mexico from our front porch (900 miles). He traveled with the Tour De France. He was so healthy and in shape. I would just let him go and not even worry. I felt better about myself back then too. I was full of spirit and hope for our future. I was self-sufficient. I had lots of friends. I had my own identity. This was in the first couple of years. I just need to get some of that back.

Then when we started building a family and buying our house the pressure was on and everything started changing. We did not have the coping skills to survive the long haul. We thought we knew what "love" was and what healthy was. I never realized we were just enduring and not feeling.

After the children came. The walls were being built. The emotional connection was missing. I felt alone all the sudden. I could not put my finger on it. I figure it was my hormones, staying home, having children, getting older, and being responsible adults. It had to be me. I started trying to put the puzzle together from my childhood. The alcohol was taking over my home and my husband. My coping skills were just not working for me. I became depressed and rather pathetic. I was ready to just roll up in a ball and give up. Hah, until I met my 90 year old Priest running at 5:30 one morning. He was full of life. He could run circles around me! I knew I needed a change. I could barely keep up with him.

I was never around healthy people enough to know what it was really like. I try to connect with those I admire but I want to be able to offer something. Right now. I am pretty emotionally unavailable at the moment myself. My kids will tell you. As they keep saying "MOM!, MOM!, MOM are you listening?".

You know there are those people you meet that just draw you close to them. They just give a glow of spirit around them. A warm smile and confidence that you can just be yourself. They are okay with themselves. I know them when I meet them. Unfortunately I did not spend enough time getting to know them. I was too busy trying to fix my husband and mold him into a prince. I can't tell you how many "Nice Guys" tried to date me when I was younger. Darn!!!

So I would love to know what that feels like to be in a healthy emotionally available relationship. I don't mean I want him hanging on my every word. Oh, no I ramble too much. Just to at least be able to offer me a "Hey, good for you!" or "Hey, why don't you just give it a try and tell me what happens."

My husband told me "We will talk about it later." I have been waiting for 9 1/2 years to talk and be heard. Now that I am asserting myself. He is sick of me and doesn't want to hear it.

That's why I agree with Asha about dumping in the catbox. I like to come here because I have so much to unload. It has been bottled up. I was really excited when I started therapy. Oh, boy I was going to get my turn now. My poor therapist! Lucky for me she kind of finds me amusing.

I am hoping to "just know" when that time comes. Meanwhile, I am going to enjoy the peace and quiet. I kind of like this time alone stuff. It's not as bad as I thought. :)

LisaMM

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Oh ,thank goodness for that, I thought I had lost the internet access. I will have to go back and read the posts later. Meanwhile- YUK YUK YUK what an awful couple of days and now I feel a bit mote myself I am not sure why it all went as it did...

Things went wrong the moment Jake returned and I am baffled as to why initially I acted as I did. He asked me to 'get out of his way". As I was on the stairway and he was in HKK's room this was unnecessary; but to my amazement I just burst into tears and said "I just want a kind word from someone." Jake of course just went away and darling HKK ordered me to bed and made me a cup of tea......

Somewhere along the line HKK decided he wanted to tell his dad how he feels about the way he is treating me...it is not good when a 13 year old says to his mum "I see how hard things are for you and how easy they are for dad."

Then yesterday I kind of crashed into a huge stress and depression- mega style....HKK tried to talk to his father. Jake was trying to put the computer right and came storming up saying he wasn't going to continue because I was "using" HKK as HKK had comedown and said things about our marriage! Then the poor kid got really upset and so did I..........   

We kind of stuck together and I just feel so bad that HKK ended up wanting to get ME to bed and bring me a cup of tea....then I discovered that Jake had snuck downstairs and was trying to fox the computer........in his nightshirt- so he has to have thought about things...I never see him around the house in his nightshirt!

Maybe for once in his life he has a conscience? He was really nasty to both of us and it is unusual for him to be horrid to HKK. I think maybe he was shocked to realise HKK wasn't going to accept his bad behaviour...

Even then Jake actually was awful as he said he would stop if I didn't leave HKK! alone! Talk about fear and fear making him a control freak.....

I think I was so off due to lack of sleep and I had to sort out financial stuff and that is very stressful although ironically when sorted will relieve a lot of stress.

But today I feel grounded again and I am planning to ask HKK HKK if\f he wants to do something...he is keen on going to a festival with me too so he must still like me as a mother despite the stress! He loves you Jay.

But why did I suddenly stress out like that.. fortunately HKK went out for most of yesterday so he didn't get me at my worst...I was seriously thinking I needed to ring the doctor - yet despite not enough sleep ( but some) I am more grounded this morning. Does it really all boil down to sleep and why is it so healed by the simple act of HKK bringing a cup of tea...This morning the toast appeared just the same and.........

good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He just came in and talked in a polite and friendly manner about the computer and HKK is NOT present and this is a real breakthrough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good heavens! he is going to lend me a tent! (Normally he would say 'no: on principle .........please GOD is he finally thawing and was it all God that I couldn't keep it together.....This is soooooo unexpected....he actually wants to fix the computer...wow.....

I really needed that one act of caring- good grief!

I won't build my hopes up, but it just kames the day go better not to feel so rejected as I was feeling....  Oh dear, you are soooo very dependent on Jake's affirmatiom to feel OK...

I know Dr Irene, I should not depend on him for my happiness; but it is so hard living with someone who is as you say, an ice cube.... Giving him that much power over your happiness is a no win Jay.

Ah well, time to move forward. my boss told me yesterday we would be discussing doing yet another course today and that makes me feel competent and wanted and I have decided to ask him if I can run the arts/communication class for the learning disabled again and point out that the students all want it to run....

Dear Asha, I do that with the almond oil...there is also something else you can do which is helpful. I have frankincense and myrrh - both have emotional healing properties, and each night I pour a little l onto a sponge before I go to bed...I also anoint my head with a touch of it.......

Giggle....I think I have to have imagined or dreamt this bit. but thinking of Jake by the computer I realised the image I have of him is of him in the nightshirt I bought him (Hey that is one present he didn't dislike!) and his black ten gallon hat.......

and now he has gone to work and there has been a better atmosphere until he went....Dare I say think I deserved it.

love, Jay

ps: Dr Irene, do you think that the mood swing is that I am just one of those people who cannot function properly if I don't have sleep......it was so short lived in a way? There is too much stress in your life to make sense of what's going on Jay. Just work on taking care of Jay, even if it seems very hard at times. You promised...

.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Theressa,

Hi. It's Nellie. You asked: "Why do you think you second guess yourself? Approval perhaps? You want others to tell you, you are okay maybe? " Maybe a little, that is part of it. Also feeling like it's not OK to make mistakes, and worrying that I have made one. Like today, I looked at my recent post to Asha and noticed a couple of typos. Darn, wish I'd caught that. It's annoying, yet I'm able to deal with it by telling myself that I'm not perfect and that's OK, and if anyone has a problem with it, well... that's their problem. :)

"Trust that everything happens for a reason." Yes. Absolutely. This is where I place my faith.

"Why do you think what you are saying is not okay? Aren't your views just as valid as anyone else's? They are your views that is it, it is okay to have your views!!" Some history - I was raised in an abusive home where it was not acceptable to voice my own independent thoughts and feelings. (And not just controversial subjects. It could be anything, expressing a personal preference for something, or talking about what I learned in school - anything.) I was often punished and rejected for having my own point of view. In recent years, I have begun to realize just how unreasonable and irrational this kind of treatment really was. There were many, many times when I felt like I was literally clinging to the edge of sanity. I have learned how to listen to and validate my own perceptions most of the time. Yet, sometimes I still can't shake this feeling that I am "bad" and "rotten" and that I have done something terribly wrong. It's irrational. I know.

"Let go of the need to worry how others will respond and just share your views." This is truly the hardest thing, Theressa. I understand that I cannot control anyone else's behavior, and I do not feel responsible for their reactions. However, and this is a big however, there have been so many times that I have been attacked verbally and threatened physically that sometimes my flight or fight response seems to be stuck in overdrive. (Or is it fight or flight? Oh dear, I don't want to goof it up!) Even as a adult, when I'm in these types of situations, I am still overwhelmed with fear, and rightly so. I definitely need to stay away from these people - no contact since last March. :)

Even now, sometimes it is still difficult to carry on any type of meaningful conversation (anything beyond, "hi, how are you" and "fine, thanks"). Social chit-chat is the worst! It's like Russian roulette. I can do it, and on the outside I try to stay cool as a cucumber. On the inside though, I am a bundle of nerves. It is very uncomfortable and sometimes I get physically ill. Writing is much easier because I have more time to think about what I want to say and that helps to boost my confidence a little. Also, I can prove to myself that, I personally, didn't find anything offensive that would in any way "justify" an attack. I need this proof. I worry that I won't have it when I need it.

I suppose most of it is irrational worry and fear, and I feel I have to find a solution to this soon, because it's having negative effects on my self-esteem. I realize that not everyone is going to be like this, yet sometimes, it is still very difficult to take that leap to find out. I've done it before and wished that I hadn't. I believe that everything does happen for a reason though, so I have to tell myself that, and just keep trying.

"Learn it is okay to give your viewpoint and then let go, knowing the universe allowed it cuz it was meant to be." OK, Theressa, I will try this and see how it works for me. On that note, I would like to say something to all the mothers and fathers out there: If you and your children are living with someone who is rageful and unpredictable, who returns affection with mean and spiteful words, or who threatens to, or actually does physically harm either you or your children, please get help and break the cycle.

Educate yourself about the dynamics of abuse, and teach your children that it's not OK to treat others this way. Do all that you can to provide an environment for them that is calm and secure, and show them that they are important and their welfare and safety does matter to you. Abuse can seriously affect a child's self-confidence and their sense of self-worth. It can cause physical illness, and immune system damage due to stress. Please protect your children, and show them that you love them by getting help for yourself.

Thanks, Theressa. Take care everyone. Nellie  You're on track Nellie.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Asha,

You sound like I did lots of the time with Ron my therapist. That guy really p*ssed me off sometimes. He knew it all!! He didn't understand how hard it all was for me. Did he? (I think he did but he knew I could take it and grow.)

Maybe DOC is doing the same for you. Did Dr Irene say to you you're a pain in the butt?

OR is this your assumption?  

I am not defending or rescueing DOC; I know she doesn't need rescuing. BUT for both you and me Asha we both do allot of assuming. Like I did with my partner for two months.

I realise now "If in doubt you must check it out, not sit assuming cuz assuming is the mother of all f*ck ups. (old armed forces saying). THOUGH I believe it is now true.

Take care, lots of hugs Asha, I know how hard it is this mountain to climb. I am sure Steve does to.

YOU SOUND SO MUCH LIKE ME, Maybe we are twins LOL!

Theressa

If I'm really as much of a pain in the butt as I think I am to you, then I guess I don't know why you would waste so much time on me.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Nellie,

You sound much like me. I am told to just take the risk. Decide how you will act/what you will say before hand in your journal. Quarterbacks. Overtime you gain confidence and know some general things to say.

Gordon drew me a picture of a goal post -talk about goals, a dog on one side - talk about animals, a plane on the other - talk about holidays and trips, People YOU and them - talk about your views, thoughts, feelings, ask them about theirs.

Then talk to yourself (not out loud lol), tell yourself you are gonna be okay. Say: Relax, listen to the background sounds, focus on the colors of the others clothes, the shape of their face. ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF YOU.

It helps you feel confident.

Take care Theressa

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Hi All,

Well I pondered all the questions I had yesterday and all of a sudden Robert Burney came in to my head.

I then went to his site and realised he had updated his pages and all the answers were there for me.

I am sharing this it helped me. Please don't feel obliged to take any of the contents into account. THIS IS JUST SHARING what I found. NO pressure to convert anyone else. PROMISE:

Just a quote from he site that caught my eye: He is working his own recovery programme. I realised for me life is about growing learning, having fun and not about getting to a destination. OR as Robert puts it "There is never any happy ever after, new issues come up all the time, you are never through so just enjoy and keep on moving".

I realise I am unhappiest when I focus too much on the past (dwelling) and not just see what I can change? Why I did? What thoughts made me think xxx was the right choice? Did my fears/anxieties come into this?

Then move on.

Remember each interaction/incident brings the lessons we need to learn there is no need to dwell on past ones as if we still have things to learn we will receive the lessons.

Here is the quote:

As just one small but significant example of the perspective created by these stupid, insane beliefs and the effect it had on determining the course of human development - including the scapegoating of women - consider the myth of Adam and Eve. 'Poor' Adam, who was just being a 'man'- that is, he just wants to get in Eve's pants - does what Eve wants him to and eats the apple. Adam does not have an internal boundary to keep him from allowing his lust to control his choices, or the capacity to say "no" to someone he loves. So Eve gets the blame for Adam not having boundaries. Now is that stupid or what? And you wondered where Codependence started.

You can see more articles at: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/codependency_recovery/67952

Take care Theressa

**This is not a preaching post LOl it is just a sharing POST!!  Hey Theressa, you have my OK to preach all you want. You can even be a pain in the b*&*(! Giggle!

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Dear Becky,

Thank you for your kind words in your post to me.

Hugs, Sharon

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Tuesday, July 24, 2001

Steve here

"What about the other five days? I need you THEN, TOO. Love, Anonymous"

Hehe, I think the 360 must mean I've been going arou