Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear Sharon, I would definitely file that report. I would also have a rape alarm handy in the house. II am not sure that it will bring help; but a loud noise can sometimes help divert things and it may make you feel safer....My rule of thumb is never let anyone into the house when alone unless you know them well. If they are drunk...not that I have had this scenario for many years as the only person who drinks anything around here-they leave. I would also like Perdida have locked him out; though I think I may have thrown his clothes out of the window after.

After that I think you need to spend time looking after you this week. Keep the curtains closed and then you won't be able to see Dr Psycho. It is now time to spoil yourself and heal up....

Now I have a question about boundaries...I tried to be nice and offer Jake my rucksack for the weekend; but before I could even get to saying the end of my sentence he cut me off... I find that really rude. I was brought up to listen to the end of what someone has to say. But he doesn't. Let it go and stop trying to help someone who doesn't want help.

But clearly he is going to make an effort to keep up his shield of permanent rudeness. He thinks if he doesn't want me to speak, I should just shut up... Without being angry, I hope. You won't be if you realize the rudeness is his issue and not about you.

A recipe for a row.....

Which is not what I want and not what he SAYS he wants...

Who is crossing whose boundaries... I didn't manage to keep my mouth shut and said something about the way he was treating me...but ha... I went away after that and there is no row... Yippeee!

So now I feel pleased there wasn't but also a bit yucky. I will not let him know that and heheheehe he can be as horrid as he likes, and I am just praying for him more.....This is definitely a brilliant tactic as you can't remain mad at someone you are praying for and then it also puts the focus into you...cos you can't pray if you are mad at someone so you have to sort that first.. non religious people can take this as thinking good thoughts. Or meditating. Or centering.

The thing is it does make you calm down.....and it also sorts out your stuff from theirs......... Yes! You are no longer reacting to something you can't do anything about - and making yourself unnecessarily miserable.

And puts you in tune with your maker and the Universe and the yucky feelings do go....

Which means the other person has no power over you and you can relate to them in a grounded way.......

Grounded - I have found a real feeling- physically as well as emotionally...sort of like a sure inner rock.. I like that feeling when I find it....

Back to the boundary. Jake's is don't interact with him unless he chooses to hear... I would say this is pretty controlling...it gives no room for anyone else to put a different point of view. I think it is rude.

My boundary is that I don't wish anyone to be rude to me and I don't want to interact with them when they are....

So is it right that in interacting with him I crossed his boundary but also mine... Interesting phrasing! I see it as compromising the Self, and perhaps that's exactly what crossing one's own boundary is about...

Can we do that? Cross our own boundaries and is that wheree the bad stuff happens? Lots of bad stuff happens when we compromise the Self...

If I had walked away and not engaged at all I would still, initially have felt yucky because I was on the receiving end of bad behaviour; but I would also have kept to my own principles. Yes.

So who crossed the boundary?????????????????????????? Jake locks himself inside a freezer and you keep trying to have him see the sense in thawing... You can't. And you hurt yourSelf when you persist he thaw.

To the mum speaking about big fights...I think the bit of the equation you are missing is that it is not just about the kids it is also about you and your needs.

The kids WILL be affected by the fights and whether any of us like it those big fights that happen in front of the kids are abusive to them (lets not get hung up on definitions here; kids do get terrified as they think all the daft things you say in anger might happen. I got that situation a lot as a kid and learnt some tough lessons with my own....

If you are going to be rolling around on the floor together get the kids out of the house first!

So if you stay you need to learn how to disagree together i n a different way..can you do that? And can he?

Maybe the first step is to see if you can get some counseling..

BUT it is not all about the kids needs.. It took me ages to see this.. I would go for counseling and constantly get told -ok, I heard about everyone else's needs and not your own.

Looking after every one else's needs and not your own actually teaches your kids not to look after themselves... kids need to be looked after and their needs to be met but if they don't see you looking after you they will not learn to look after themselves...they get a poor role model.

Which I am just experiencing form my son who just copied his dad's behaviour earlier.......YUK....I know he is just winding me up but YUK anyway.. see how they pick the stuff up....

Sigh ...one day Jake will learn how to behave like an adult....... Maybe.

So I am refusing to be drawn into it....Jake is behaving as if our son has to only want to be with one parent.. well tough luck Jake. I am simply going to encourage our son to enjoy being with you and not play your game......

Games wear out eventually or get put away forever at the back of a cupboard....and you can't play an interactive game alone....

love, Jay. (Who will not longer play the 'lets have a really terrible relationship and make each other unhappy game.)

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Goodness, goodness me,

Aren't you all so suspicious. Maybe you should check this out??

The anonymous poster who posted fixing vs support was ME. (Theressa!!!) and the reason I did not sign was because I was in a hurry and just needed to get this off. Giggle!

Maybe you should all look at your buttons in this area?? Is it a button to wonder?

You want to all know where I am at, well here goes:

*I did support my partner in his career. He would tell you this. *He in the recent past started to support my studies, by minding our daughter. *He didn't stop me going out, nor did I ever stop him. (Doesn't mean though we didn't feel anxious when we both did go out separately, but we are working on these issues now.) *I am/was defensive about anyone mentioning balance in my life (why? because it wasn't very balanced, still isn't at times but I am working on this)

I would say I am mid way along my work on learning to not control/fix and slowly my partner is too. In fact, remarkably he has progressed alot too.

Right now I am in a state of being in a rock and a hard place and my energy levels are reaching zero, I've had a migraine for the last two days and have spent them sitting looking out of the window and sleeping, eating.

I posted the support vs fixing because I thought it would help others, but then that is their choice to accept it as a true gift or to react towards it in which case ONE should check out why it caused them to react. Giggle!

As for the other anonymous poster which wasn't me, (the poem writer), why are you all so suspicious of this person? I remember everyone of you, including me writing down your feelings. THIS person is a victim just like all the rest of us here.

I found nothing wrong with the poem, this person is at the beginning of recovery, (accept that!!) Steve gave a good account of this poem, GOOD On you Steve.

Acceptance is the name of the game. Accepting what is... So please recognise the stage each poster is in, in recovery, just like I recently learnt with Sharon. It is good like Steve did to point out that the victim must take responsibility for themselves. BUT aren't they starting the steps by posting?

It is better use of the catbox to accept all without unnecessary suspicion and to give feedback. In time the poster will catch on to the healthy ideas. THOUGH we must have patience, not ridicule if anyone is to feel okay to share!! Thanks Theressa.

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Asha here

Dr I you said: <<<Using your criteria Asha, almost every decision is a "big" one... >>> But, that's true Asha. You care more than anybody else, even if it's not your issue! (Lots of wasted energy here...) >

But c’mon Dr. Irene – “almost every?” like ... whether to take a bath or a shower, eat rice or potatoes, clean my fingernails, blow my nose, wash my dishes, get out of bed in the morning, brush my teeth, gargle... ? (okay, so I’m being silly, but you get the drift.) No, I don't. Brushing your teeth is your business. I'm talking about stuff related to other people. Think of it this way: You often care more than the other person cares about the other person's business.

I’ll take constructive criticism about “caring more than anyone else”, but that line makes me sound like a hysterical “drama queen”. Huh? Please don't put words in my mouth - and then blame me for having put them there! I wish you could meet me in person, because I wonder if I come across online in some way other than how I really am.... Why do you think you are being insulted or disrespected? If, for example, you said to me in the CatBox, since that's what we do here, "Irene, your gray roots are too evident and it makes you look older," I could assume you mean I should consider whether I want my roots gray, and whether or not I want myself to likely appear older to others, or, I could (various reactions) assume you are tossing a dig, or, I could feel incensed/ embarrassed /etc. that you noticed, since the roots are only 1/8th of an inch long and you expect too much from me (as though I am sloppy about my hygiene, and why don't you give me a break already), etc., etc., etc. In other words, in my assumptions, I added meaning to your statement.

It's OK to reach whatever assumption you reach, but instead of assuming with certainty what the other person "did" to you, you may want to first ask them. For example, I might say, "Asha, are you insinuating I am sloppy about my hygiene?" You might say, "No Irene, don't take it that way. I am simply commenting that your roots are evident and it ages you, in my opinion. I am asking you to check this out since you complain you no longer feel young...blah, blah, blah..."

Now watch:

If I feel badly about my gray hair (and if I didn't dye it, trust me, it's beyond gray), I am likely to feel judged/ insulted/ disrespected/ whatever, by your observation - because I assume you are judging me...

If I feel OK about my gray hair, I am likely to consider whether or not the grey roots may have an impact on how young I feel, and whether or not I want to be more conscientious about my roots.

If I don't feel OK about my hair, I am likely to get defensive. Yet, it would be to my benefit to accept that my hair is gray, no matter how much I hate it. Then I could proceed from there.

This is important Asha. This is about your power!

If you do this here with me, you do it with others. Don't you see, you complain of feeling misunderstood and this pains you. Yet, you are the one who misunderstands and is judging yourself!

When it comes down to the core of it, it’s just that I was hurt by the comment because you have always shown respect to me, and that comment was, I felt, disrespectful. Just my opinion. It's because I do value what you say that I feel this way. I'm glad you can talk about how you feel!

I know that some “big” things for me are not big to others, just as certain “big” things to others are not “big” to me. The dog stuff I talk about probably seems ludicrous to some people. It’s not to me. Not ludicrous at all. The only problem is that you were upset with Steve for being where he was instead of communicating around your need to help him.

I agree that *many* times I have gone into Steve’s space, and there is an element of that in the “dog scenario” but it seemed to me to be blown out of proportion to what actually happened. Stop! We blow things out of proportion here to make them evident.

IMO Steve’s reaction to me exaggerated (in his mind) what really happened. I don’t measure (anymore) what I do “wrong” (or ineffectively) by Steve's "yukky feelings”. Good! No matter how “perfect” I am, he can still make himself feel yukky over something I say or do. Yes.

So why are you wasting precious energy feeling disrespected? You could instead be using that energy to look at what you do that creates those feelings in yourself...

I didn’t “repeatedly ask Steve to communicate when he didn’t want to”. I said about 3 things - #1. “Maybe you should call the vet.” #2. “If you want to go to the vet, I’ll pay for it.” #3. (after me leaving my kitchen when the dog went into more contortions, and him coming into my office) “Why is there a problem about calling the vet?”

Okay – it was a waste of energy – I know that now, but hyper-sensitive? Over-reactive? Isn't that what you are doing with response to me? I think so... I just don’t see that. And yes – no point in doing what’s not effective, or perplexing myself over *why* he was unresponsive – what is *is*, no matter how “big” the situation to me. This is the one thing I can learn. But I could not have known he was unresponsive unless I gave him something to respond to. Please don't waste energy being defensive. The dog incident is meaningless in the scheme of things. The point is to use it to learn about yourself. These silly incidents keep repeating; I believe I've pinpointed one of the reasons why. You can do with it what you want.

By the way, if you stop reacting to this stuff, it is likely you will become more mindful of other cues Steve may be communicating and that you are in fact "rightly" reacting to, For example, are you reacting to his tone of voice? The look on his face? If that's the case, then something like, "Why are you scowling at me for offering assistance?" might be more accurate and reinforcing of your boundaries of how you expect to be treated. (I don't know you and Steve, but, knowing what I know about this topic, I expect that Steve is unaware of reactions that escape him. Promise! How do I know? Because his angry outward expression was one of the things he learned about and got a handle on in the CatBox. "Stuff" is not resolved for once and for all when we get the glaring insight, as Jay can testify. As the song goes, "You've only just begun..." Steve is likely to be working on this one at increasingly subtle layers for years to come...)

What I could also have done better was to take out the “should” statement. Steve took this as pressure and I could have empowered *myself* more by realizing right away that he was unresponsive or incapable of responding, and then looked at my remaining options. Yes!

I *will* work on improving my communication skills and expectations and underlying assumptions, but I will *not* take blame for Steve’s yukky feelings, nor his yukky behavior. ABSOLUTELY NOT! NO WAY JOSE! Etc. Realize I never blamed you for Steve's yukkiness...

But there is another issue – and I think it comes down to a difference in philosophy between you and I, Dr. Irene. You say it’s not “my” issue (which “should” be true if Steve and I are not partners, but that’s a whole other story)..

I hope you won’t cross this out because I think this point is important. The philosophy issue was not crossed out before because it was not important, but because it was, in my opinion, only symptomatic of the underlying dynamics generating it. Kind of like focusing on the sniffles when the sniffles are a function of the cold.

You have said in the past that Steve’s kids are “his” kids, not mine. If I understand what you are saying, you think that the final decision-making authority for kids should revert to the biological parent (or in the case of a dog – whoever had that dog first). My dog is “my” dog, but if I have a mate in my life, I need to deal with conflicts we have about “my” dog or “my” kids (if that was the case). Yes. You deal with the conflict and find a way to resolve it. You can educate Steve why you see things differently. Then, right or wrong, your job is to let go and accept that it is his business how he deals with "his" children.

I think otherwise, it creates a win/lose scenario as a method of problem solving...

I think there has to be a better way, but it can only happen if both partners are willing to extend “authority” and willing to put time into talking the “big” things out (if it is “big” to one of the parties, it’s “big” in the relationship IMO). Maybe the issue for me is that Steve *hasn't* extended this authority ... hmm.

Here are some quotes that make a lot of sense to me - from Peter K. Gerlach who has been studying stepfamilies for over 20 years. (btw the website is well worth checking out - http://www.stepfamilyinfo.org – there is a *ton* of information on stepfamily and other issues there):

“When workable compromises aren't found, if stepfamily co-parents don't agree to (usually) make their relationship second only to personal health and recovery, without excessive guilt and anxiety, loyalty conflicts (and other factors) frequently wreck their re/marriage, over time....It's a well documented fact that most second and subsequent marriages break up over problems with the children and the loyalty conflicts involved.....” Absolutely. This is well known and doesn't conflict one iota with what I'm talking about,

some other links to his philosophies on problem-solving and “metatalking” that I find interesting:

http://www.stepfamilyinfo.org/projects/02/prblmslv-practice.htm http://www.stepfamilyinfo.org/projects/02/meta-wks.htm

Maybe these methods don’t work in “power-imbalanced” situations, I don’t know. Exactly Asha. There is an assumption of mutuality and that is lacking in "power-imbalanced" relationships. My objective, by pointing out where each partner gives power away, is to empower each of you.

Dr. Irene, I hope you don’t see the above as “defensiveness” because I truly don’t think I am defending so much as telling you how I really see it. I could agree with you just to “keep peace”, but I’d be lying to both you and to myself.

Yes – I can be controlling, yes, I can be self-righteous, and over-reactive, and all that nutty stuff. And I know I don’t have to be perfect (though I can try – grin). I know there are things I don’t “see” about myself. *But* I’m not “denying” anything. That would imply that I “knew” something and wasn’t acknowledging it. That’s not the case. In a nutshell: People react when a button is pushed. If we stop reacting by getting OK with what is, we are in a better position to determine specifically what cue is bothering us and why. We are in a better position to determine where to take it from there. Think of all this as increasing "discriminative thinking" so to speak.

OK... You challenge me Asha, and I like that! But, now I'm pooped. So I'm going to pop off. Be back and - I'm really glad you came back! Consider the stuff about inserting assumptions (ye old "irrational thoughts") and reacting to them and let me know what you think... G'nite!

I'm back.

I don’t need to make Steve right or wrong either, though frankly I find it unhelpful and quite irritating when he talks about my “denial” and explains things on your behalf, when he could instead use the catbox to examine his own stuff (which I haven’t seen him do yet). Agreed. I want to focus on *my* behavior, and I would ask from Steve in turn that he focus on *his*. Me too. When he puts his energy into my “problems” then my posting doesn’t serve to help my growth; rather it just provides him with ammunition (or sometimes he just sits back, waiting for me to change so everything will be “better” – which it won’t – at least for him - if he doesn’t do his part.) I don’t want to focus on what Steve does wrong, but it sure doesn’t help *me* when he does this kind of stuff. That's why you should ignore his stuff; particularly, don't react to him! I'm capable of doing all the calling either of you would want.

This is probably asking too much, but it would be nice if Steve could show compassion or curiosity about my reactions rather than make them “wrong” or a symptom of my “denial”. Of course, he can do whatever he wants, but that’s what I’d prefer. When he “knows” what I’m thinking, but doesn’t ask, he’s usually way off! I supposed each of you could say that.

Dr. I, I think you know that I am grateful to you and your site. Lots of times the advice you have offered *has* hurt (though I didn’t say so). I accept the hurt when that little inner bell inside says that what you are saying is true. But sometimes the inner bell doesn’t ring. Sometimes when you ask “does it work for you?” I have to say “no, not this time”. You haven't had a chance to look at the irrational thought comments yet.

And hey, who knows, maybe I’m just thick-headed and don’t “get it”. It’s not for lack of trying though. It's very hard to "see."

I’ve been plenty controlling in the past, but this incident doesn’t feel the same to me. I think that I could be more “aware” of Steve’s signals and be more prepared to back off if he is unresponsive– even ask him if something I’m doing or saying is bothering him. Instead of making suggestions, I could be more straightforward and ask questions. I also think I could be more focused on what *I* can do and not what he can do (although that’s tough when he has the authority to do something and I don’t). Doing much more than this feels like the old “walking on eggshells” routine, or having to run everything thru the “Steve screen” like old times. Yuck. You misunderstand here.

I know I have anger – even rage sometimes. I’m not denying that either. At times I act out on it, at times I don’t. I try not to act on it, but it slips through from time to time. Also, sometimes when I’m truly *not* angry, Steve still thinks I am... I don’t think either of us trust each other any more. Steve’s “boundaries” feel more like walls to me. But that’s neither here nor there.

And Dr. I, I don’t ask you to hold my hand, but I do ask you to speak to me respectfully. I always have - except when you put words into my mouth...

I know your intentions are good and I hope you understand this.

Enough said.

Asha

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear All,

I understand the button: "I love and accept you exactly as you are"

This does not mean I will tolerate the way you are! But I have to accept it! I have three sane options. I can share my needs for things to be different and trust you to take my needs into account as well as you knowing what you are doing isn't productive. THOUGH there is a risk you are comfortable and see no desire to change for yourself. It must be for yourself. You abuser/victim must know inside that what you are doing/acting is not working in the end it only hurts you and me.

That includes people pleasing, yelling, (All forms of abuse - inevitably anything that pushes honest/directness out of the picture.

This does not mean I should not set boundaries and limits and detach. I MUST set limits of what I will accept, I must detach and get on with my own tasks.

My second option is to just keep on going with my head in the sand, whilst continuing to moan, complain and say "Why do you do this to me?" over and over. Well "I continue to do this because you continue to tolerate it".

This is being passive-aggressive. Moaning, complaining but never setting limits and detaching.

THE final option is to say I won't put up with this no more and to move on. This option is usually taken when you've decided after a while nothing is changing. It doesn't matter what limits you set and it doesn't matter how much you detach. THIS other person isn't interested in working towards the common goals. IT IS ALL ABOUT THEIR (ME, ME, ME, if I am satisfied and comfortable and you don't like it tough)

YES it is tough. Though one day we have to speak up if things never change and decide do we want to continue or not?

SO gals and guys when it says accept, it doesn't say TOLERATE does it? It means accept what is.... (Reality), if you live with someone who always says NO. Why do you continue to ask?

if you live with someone who never has any desire to do anything nice, why wait for them? Do it on your own!

if you live with someone who can't discuss things, and can only yell, why continue to discuss?

Though in the end nothing discussed, nothing ever gets worked out. So where do you go after that? That depends how long you are gonna sit back and keep your head in the sand.

I feared taking my head out of the sand and checking out my assumptions due to fear. Fear that my facade would crack.

For months I dwelled on the statement made by my partner, NEVER daring to ask him what he really meant.

Well now I know the truth and if only I'd had the courage to ask him two months ago all the pain I'd have been spared.

I know now though, "if in doubt check it out. Face the fears, the only way to prevent excess, unnecessary tears."

Take care, Theressa

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

DENIAL EH!!! Yes I am guilty of that!!! LOL

Though someone blew my cover. Was it you trubble. Did you tell my partner it was time to push me away LOL. Never Auntie Teressa!

I sense fear in my partner Dr Irene. He said when we stayed for 4 days a couple of weeks ago whilst my kitchen was being decorated, he didn't feel okay.

It felt like it used to him having to take care of me. Tell me not to misbehave. Be untidy. Tell me not to do unacceptable things in his house.

I was guilty at times for not taking care of myself. I think he was right to feel YUKKY..

I am working on fixing me not taking care of me SERIOUSLY. My self discipline is lacking. One of the easiest things to improve with practice!

Like my partner said "Theressa if you are self disciplined 75% of the time, the 25% when you are tired and leave things is okay, though lagging 100% of the time leaves you feeling out of balance, overwhelmed, and unable to cope, then you beat yourself up, become reactive, yell and Melissa gets it. Do you think this works?" Yes!

So I see Dr Irene that my partner is right in saying it felt yukky. I am glad he was honest. And you took it: clearly, constructively, and are putting it to good use. Congrats!

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear Friday,

I agree totally with your analysis. I think the trubble is people think acceptance is TOLERATE and it is not. I think sometime ago another poster did this and Dr Irene pointed out that accepting what is.. is not the same as tolerating the poor behaviour. When you accept you still set limits. Right. You accept the things you can't change (but you can always get out of the line of fire, so you don't have to tolerate it.)

You sound very healthy. In fact you all do, maybe my post got us all thinking.

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

I read these posts and remember the quips and quotes you all write - some, but not all - "If in doubt, do nothing". my own little quote "if in doubt, say nothing." Well, I have my doubts but I need to share anyway.

All I can say is hmmmmmmm and a bis-zillion question marks in my head register as to this 'anonymous poster' phenomenon and "suspicious-ness" about 'things' and 'pushing buttons' and on and on.

I'm groping here - I'm having a hard time here understanding people's tactics in writing posts - no name at the end - and then people read it wondering who it was - now all of a sudden it "pushed buttons???" - and then somebody cops to it and says "I wrote it!!" I felt like it was to basically see people squirm!! Theressa was responding to the speculation and the reactions, that's all. When you are deep into self-examination, you look at everything. That's part of the process...

How do you know it pushed buttons? Just because somebody asked about it, got thinking about it, taking one's own inventory, is pushing a button?

Well, Passive-aggressive behavior pushes my buttons BIG TIME! And unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), I'm one of those who sees it 10 miles away.

Well, guess what? I wrote this post and I have my name on it. I didn't even read the contents about the 'fixing' vs. 'support' but I am sure it was very insightful information. I'll go back and read it. But I still have lots of questions about 'this'.

I don't even think I needed to share this, however, I haven't had my latte yet. No real feelings - good, bad or indifferent - I just have question marks as to 'why'. Just "because." No consequence; no need to get ruffled...

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Giggle-lucky I looked to the next page before I emailed Dr Irene to say the posts are not going through.. I seem to get stuck on the wrong page every week! You finally figured out I'm not terribly conscientious with this thing, huh?

I don't think it matters who posts anonymously or not- most people don't use their real names anyway- I suppose a link is made to whoever...

But it was interesting to see how people responded not knowing it was Theressa, I am too tired to worry about who thinks what,,.....I just think it was a single post......

I have just spent the day tidying up cupboards and made a glorious mess! I t is really interesting to tidy a cupboard you have not touched for years and find all the old history of your life.....now I have to clear up the mess.....

But it is more progress...my energy is no longer taken up with sorting the relationship because I have disengaged from the yucky stuff...Makes me realise how much energy you have when you don't have a bad time each morning..

Asha, is it that you are really wanting a parenting role with Steve's kids and he is hanging back as he is unsure...maybe that is the thing that needs sorting....I might be off my rocker totally here; but a dog is a bit like a child...maybe the dog symbolized how Steve felt about his kids.....This is just something that ran through my head...maybe Steve is unsure because you two are not together, technically at the moment... This could be why the \dog issue is important????????

Did you see Trubble's message on the last page?

love Jay - who had better, literally put her own house in order!

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

The Value of a Broken Pot.....

I have been kind of meditating on this as I got this tape by a psychotherapist who tells stories from Homer to her clients and I wanted to see if I could tell a healing story...This is for people whose lives are shattering and I kind of found it helpful to think of this for me and what has happened to me...

There was once a water pot. It was used every day. It was very much needed and had value to the family who owned it...One day the pot was dropped and it shattered. The shards were buried in the family rubbish dump and years and years went by.

Houses were built and destroyed and families grew up and dies near to the spot where the shards were buried. Many many moons and suns went by.

Finally a team of archeologists arrived and decided that they wanted to know about the spot where the shards were buried- so they started to excavate.

The pieces of the pot were found and stuck together. It took time and skill to do this and still there were cracks visible...but \now the pot had even more value than ever before...It was the key to a whole history of a whole people.

from that one pot the way people had lived could be constructed.. It told of a time and era in history and provided a link to much of importance...

it was no longer a water pot but a thing of greater value...The second life of the pot was more important than the first.

Ah well I will leave you to work out if this is daft or not! I just realised this is my first storyline in a while. So I am also getting back my creative energy....jay

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hi, I posted yesterday for the first time. My husband and I have been receiving counseling together for a little more than a year now, although he has not gone with me for the past 3 sessions so I have gone by myself. He refuses to see that he needs to take some responsibility in healing our marriage. He wants me to do all the fixing, all the changing, everything I do is wrong or not enough. I have spent years trying to save this marriage and I have had enough. I am scared of divorcing him though. There are so many questions, so many unknowns. I doubt that he will leave the house so I would need to be the one to move out and I don't want to make the kids move out too. He has threatened to take the kids from me if I do leave. I feel so stuck right now. I still have not given up hope that things will get better but it has been years and it is still so bad. I am so sad. jay, thank you for responding to what I posted yesterday. I know I need to be strong and maybe if I can be strong enough the abuse will lessen. I need to continue on the right path, thinking about my options, reading, learning and continue to see my therapist. I want to make the right decision for me and for my children. Thanks for listening.

Mary

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hi, Dr. Irene, Friday here.

I posted “and I won't stay in any relationship where it isn't safe to have my boundaries.” And you replied ”Food for thought: There is no place where it isn't safe to have boundaries - except where you make it unsafe... “

Ok, I’m having trouble with this food for thought. I can understand it if we are only talking about verbal/emotional abusive behaviors. Because with those I choose how I respond to the comment or behavior – I choose whether to get my feelings hurt by the way I think of the comment. (Doesn’t mean I like it, though). However, I don’t understand this in the context of physically abusive behaviors. If I say no to a request that makes me uncomfortable and I’m responded to with a slap or a push, then how did I make that situation unsafe? You were there to begin with. Abuse doesn't come up out of the blue; you find you're "there" one day because you didn't get yourself out of it.

One example (near the end) comes to mind. I had been seeing an individual counselor weekly. She (my now-ex) asked what we discussed in session. I responded that I didn’t want to talk about it. She kept moving closer to me physically – literally pushing me up against a wall. “I want to know.” says she, “No,” says me. And then she continued to invade my space. YUK! (This space invasion is a precursor for her to pushing/shoving or hitting – I had seen her use it on other people before). I was very afraid of that. How did I make that situation unsafe (other than by actually continuing to stay in the same house?) By not leaving much, much earlier, but that's neither here nor there. This isn't about blaming you; you did the best you knew how to and you are learning more and more each day. My comment is about personal power/ personal responsibility. Abuse isn't like a car that comes flying out of the blue and hits you. Abuse approaches over a long period of time, but our denial prevents us from seeing it. Personal responsibility is your goal; that's what real power is all about!

Maybe a better way of putting what I was trying to say is that I won’t stay in any relationship where my boundaries are not respected. Cool. Now, that's taking responsibility!

Thanks for pushing me to think.

Ms. Friday

PS: Trubble, we have salmon here in the Pacific NW if you ever want to visit. I hear it is good for what ails you. Gee, don't I wish! You know ever since I got caught lying with the FakeDaddyGeorgieB fiasco, she's really been awful...

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Weird, weird, weird. What's wrong with spending time with a man developing a friendship - with potential for a romance down the line? I met someone in May who I kinda liked, though not super charged about him but he was nice - we had alot in common - however he lived an hour away. We spent time together 1-2 week going to dinner, taking walks and he was a nice guy. The red flag was at the beginning because he seemed desperate looking for a girlfriend. I told him that I was not desperate looking for a boyfriend but wanted to start out as friends and to let things naturally develop. He - during the course of the time -was saying things like "if this relationship doesn't move any faster I have other women that are interested in me" and I told him "go and date them Good Woman! - we have no commitment between us - I'm not interested in just jumping into something intimate right now but I may down the line". Well, I started to feel after a period of time that these were ultimatums from him that I should either "produce feelings" or "produce something" or else...... Well, we met last night for dinner - then took a walk - and on my walk he tells me "I met someone, but I really want to be with you, but if you can't start being my girlfriend by August then I'm going to go with her" Ugh! - I said "fine". Then I get an email today from him with the same 'ultimatum' so I called him and said 'well, this is it then, hope it works' and he said 'well, I've given you 2-3 months to get to know me and since you don't want to give in, then I'm going with her." I said, "fine, hope it works." And that's it!!! Boy, I felt pressure from this guy - I really wanted to get to know him first as a friend - but I guess after a certain month or number of days of waiting its like "I can't wait." His issue was he didn't want to spend the rest of his summer alone on the weekends up in the hills. Well, I didn't ask him to spend his weekends alone. He should have been out anyway. I don't do ultimatums!! Total YUK!! Yeah!

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hi Theressa,

No one was "ridiculing" the anonymous poster. The poem was very nice but it was definitely someone's beginning. As far as your post went, it is indicative of how fluid the categories "victim" and "abuser" can be because you sounded exactly like my ex, and several others' exes. I don't know that it's a "button" to react to something you have heard over and over again in an abusive context. Your signature on your posts would have contextualized the post and would have been very helpful - does this mean our "buttons" are really about your carelessness? I am glad that you are doing better, but sometimes, Theressa, you can sound very preachy. I don't think it's fair to use words that many of us heard from our abusers, NOT sign your post, and then tell us we have "buttons." Why does this bother you? Why take Theressa's reaction to the speculation negatively? She didn't set out to trick anybody... Actually, it's kind of funny...

Perdida

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Wow, Sharon, you DO live! You're fightin' 'em off with sticks!

Speaking of sticks, stick to your guns with this new guy. He probably doesn't have a replacement lined up really, but who needs that pressure. He is NOT being at all sensitive and he sounds like the same old same old all over again (ie Psycho II). I know there are a lot of them out there and they get worse as they get desperate.

I'm so glad the anonymous poster wasn't my ex. I'm hoping to get him to read and post on the site, at least start out reading. I read the Misogynist page and even with everything he fell into the category of "Not A Total Hopeless Case." But it's all up to him, of course...

That Misogyn site is great, by the way.

Love, Perdida

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

I think when we post we should put our name on it - that way we can get credited for what we have to say. (giggle, kinda)

But I'm not scared of being discredited for what I have to say either. (another giggle, kinda)

I just don't like anonymous posts sometimes when it can be 'potent' and can get people upset. Be up front, honest and trust what you have to say - as long as you can monitor how you say it to your audience.

I've read some real strange stuff here lately -- though I like the poems, I do not like some of the 'tit-for-tat' -- it doesn't feel like real sharing -- it feels like 'admonishments' to others.

Lots of hugs,

Sharon (the not being so silent one) Good Sharon. But, it's really OK to post anonymously. This board won't get out of whack. Even if I'm not around, I can count on one of you guys to email me to check things out. So, it's really OK since some people do it out out of fear rather than out of a need to intimidate. And it's only a matter of time before we figure what's what out. OK?

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear Perdida,

I must be on a roll, eh? I really need a latte......a french vanilla one.....with cream and everything......

Are you going to go pick up your capuccino part from him? I'm interested to know how or what the status is of your ex.

Is there regular contact?

Sharon

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear Perdida,

Thanks for the comments about the other guy.....I mean, gee whiz, I just wanted to do things right by taking things slow, getting to know him as a friend and let things develop into a romantic place. However, he wasn't on the same page as me. It felt like he gave me 14 days from today to either produce feelings for him or he's gone to others. He told me 'well, I've given you plenty of time to develop feelings for me and its not happening.' "Well, no **&& sherlock - is it like this?

"You either love me in 90 days or I'm gone?"

That's how it feels. So good riddance - hope it works - Mr. Can't Be Alone for the Rest of the Summer.

Just more psychos! I agree, though Trubble likes him (uh, oh...).

Yep, I do make my splashes, don't I? Onto the nest endeavor!

Love, Sharon

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hi Sharon,

Was I "tit for tatting"? I was sincere... ooops!

The ex is BRINGING me my cappuccino Frother and Special Scoop which he discovered I had left at his house. I guess I am ready for anything... It's very nice of him to drive 2 hours to make sure the froth on my cappuccino is appropriately frothy.

Actually, anything could happen. I am going to use the opportunity to practice my Catbox Skills and Sense of Self. I am sure it will be a very nice visit. There has been no regular contact since he went to his conference advising me he hadn't decided whether to use email or not, at which point I got a hold of myself and stopped emailing. There haven't been any calls either, since I never called him back when he got home and started calling, and he is very into tit for tat - er, that is, balance and reciprocation. I have no clue as to his mental state although I doubt it is angry; don't know whether he wants to perform any reconciliation shtick; I am assuming that he wants to bring me my Frother and Special Scoop, see an African film, and go home. If he has more on his agenda, maybe he will tell me ( and maybe he will expect me to guess...). Tit for tatting is angry. The assumption is look what I've done for you; what have you done for me?

PS - I never noticed my Frother was missing... I've given up milk... I didn't choose to share this information with him...

More later... Perdida

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Dear Perdida,

Oh my gosh, no, my posts were not directed at you regarding the 'tit-for-tat'. It was a general statement I made but it wasn't to anyone in particular.

I did look up 'tit-for-tat' in the dictionary though and it means 'retaliation in kind.' Ooopppsss!! I've used that word in the past in the right way, but I didn't use it right in my post.

I meant that didn't feel comfortable with the fact that a post was written and then was automatically assumed that it activated our buttons!!!!!! Plus, no name for the 'credit' to boot!

Funny though - I haven't even read this anonymous post which was written by Theresa. I'm sure it was very insightful as she does write well, though sometimes can be admonishing. But its OK Theresa, I've learned alot through your writings, though I do agree with Perdida, a little preachy. Theressa has style. I'm surprised we all missed it. Her writing almost has a "signature." (BTW, I like preachy.)

So now I'm tit-for-tatting!!!!! Oh well, I've been on a roll all day.

Hugs to all, Sharon

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hey Sharon,

Oh, we all engage in some titting and tatting. But you should read the post. It's very nice on the face of it but it, as I said, echoed what my ex used to say. It's an example of how really nice sentiments can take on a sinister meaning in an abusive context. The cycle of abuse feels like a kaleidoscope sometimes! If you look one way it looks like this but if you twist it a little, it looks really different. Exactly. And all is in the eye of the beholder...

The anonymous post did spark some interesting thought and discussion - I especially began thinking how crazy it can all feel when one hears those nice thoughts and reacts to the words - it feeds into that paranoia that - maybe it's ME who is crazy!! Maybe we're all crazy, and so what? Giggle! But you hear the nice words and you get the abusive actions and suddenly nice words take on a different meaning. But if I'd known it was Theressa, the post would have looked entirely different to me because I read Theressa in a certain way that belongs to how I see Theressa, and the post being anonymous but sounding like the creepy sweet stuff that my ex would expound... well, I feel very deceived and set up with the "buttons" thing. You see Perdida, that you felt deceived is what you need to look at. Theressa did what she did. You interpreted it as ominous. That by the way is the button stuff Theressa referred to. She knows that all is in the eye of the beholder... I can understand your (and other people's upset). It's certainly reasonable. But, if you knew you were crazy and were OK with it, you wouldn't get upset... (Being human is about being nutty....)

And it sounded so much like my ex that I have to admit I actually thought it might be my ex! Theressa had no way of knowing she would sound like that to me. My objection is to the tone of her post in which she identifies herself as the writer. She's emotional, that's all. How are you taking it?

Yow, Perdida

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Helloooo Trubble Mousie is very excited to be your new Auntie but Mousie must ask a couple of questions in order to fulfill the obligations of her new position. 1. Are you Mousie's new niece or nephew? Nephew. Does Trubble sound like a girl's name? Ugh. 2. Does this make Mousie and FakeMommy in-laws? You don't deserve such an awful fate AuntieMousie. 3. Does Mousie get to come to the family reunions and help herself to anything on the food table? Assuming you find anything left once I've been there. Hehehehe! 4. Will Mousie be mentioned in the will? I think I can probably get her to leave you the mousie traps! 5. Does Mousie get a new wallet sized school photo of you every year to stick to the front of her refrigerator? YES!! (Now we're talking!) 6. Does Mousie have to get you a graduation and a wedding present when the time comes? YESSSS!!!! Well that is all Mousie can think of for now. Mousie does not know what a koi is, but you'd better not go snacking on any fresh pirahhnas. They have zero vitamins and you'll be up all night in the litterbox. Better than the canned mush I'm getting now. Here is a hug from your new Auntie Mousie and her kitty cat Dusty But don't get any ideas if you're a boy cat because she is 14 and does not go out with any young gigolos. Humphhh! She's too old for me, but I can use a new GrandMa. Giggle! However if you're an older single mature rich male, she might be interested. Well, she can have him that way, but I have dibs on him as a RealDaddy. Love Mousie

For Your Fridge AuntieMousie:

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Thursday, July 19, 2001

Hi Catbox,

I wanted to comment that since I have become more aware of my husband's abusive and controlling behaviors, I have become more hypersensitive. Of course. Since our divorce it's like we can't saying anything with out polarizing it or waiting for the other person to attack. I feel as though he will take anything I say and twist it so he is the victim. He appears to be just waiting for an excuse to be abusive. I was doing the same wanting to be validated. Good for you for recognizing that! I didn't realize I was asking the wrong person to validate my feelings. Yes... Also, once you know, you no longer need the validation. Perhaps, I am just not secure in my boundaries that I make this assumption. It never occurred to me that people where playing this power struggle game. You sound pretty secure to me. It takes lots of courage to own all this. I have now become aware of it, and at first was scared of the challenge of standing up for what I believed in because I wasn't even sure what that was. And then the air begins to clear...

I wonder sometimes how I will react when I meet a truly loving caring person who is confident enough in himself to just want to share his life experience with me.... I hope to know enough about myself to just go for the ride and trust that I will be okay. Right now, I am not there. I have a lot to learn.

I think it is a lot easier to communicate in person then to type on this board. I know I have written things in here that I have gone back and thought "Oh, that's not what I meant." or "I hope it's not taken the wrong way". Giggle! I know as a codependent I always assumed I knew what's best for me was best for everyone. You, me, and the rest of the world... I will say "You need to..." with out realizing it this person may have already thought of this. I think it sounds better to say I have done this and this has worked for me. I am now learning myself how to listen, reflect back, and accept that there may be another perspective. It's definitely a skill to be learned. I am working on my communication skills. A fun idea is to tape a telephone conversation and see how you sound.

As far as the titting and tatting....I don't see it that way. I see people sharing different perspectives. Me too.

I believe Theressa is excited to share her new found Self, and learning experience. Yes. She grows by sharing her experience. I know her post's give me lots to think about. I challenge my opinions or perspective. I think if we go back in 6 months and read it again it will even sound differently. It depends on where you are in your recovery. I wouldn't take anything another person shares as a personal attack on me. BINGO!

An example is like reading some personal home pages that deal with darker ritual abuse. You will read a poem that reflects a certain feeling at that time. When I wasn't comfortable with myself I felt yucky and uneasy about what I was reading. Exactly. It's all about being OK with whatever part of you. Then you don't get intimidated, take offense, whatever. I could not understand what was meant. Now I can actually open up to read it and almost respect it. I feel more open to learn. I believe people have different perspectives about this. It may make one reader uncomfortable while offer comfort to another.

I just wanted to share what I am learning. It's helped me see things a little differently now. I have learned to inquire what was meant if I am not sure "Help me understand why you think.....".

LisaMM Thank you LisaMM.

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Becky checking in-----

First, Dr. Irene, thanks for your comments to Asha: they really helped ME! Also, the "R" in EMDR stands for Reprocessing. That's right! Thanks.

All the talk about boundaries reminds me of the discussion my therapist and I had on Monday about those tricky little things. We discussed a recent boundary smashing by my H and she pointed out that I tend to cave in still. It's true. I usually feel that I must give in because I have no choice; that he will do what he wants to anyway, regardless of how I feel. Good you see that irrational stuff. You just need to remain aware of the fallacy of that thinking, AND you need to learn new skills to do/ say something more effective.

She advised me to halt any "discussion" that entails him attacking, insulting and otherwise disrespecting me ,and refusing to say "yes" to what he wants until rational negotiation is happening. In other words, if I say "yes," it should be of my own free will, NOT because I'm intimidated into it, and feel powerless to say no. Exactly. She's giving you tips to help you learn the skills you need.

This morning I explained how I feel about the issue there is a conflict about, (I think I mentioned it earlier; it involves making "my" space at his rental property into an apartment, necessitating the removal of belongings of mine to an attic or garage) and told him that I feel railroaded. I said that I was unhappy with how I'd responded, that I didn't want to feel so powerless and told him what i want in the future as far as mutuality and respect. He responded by snarling --yes, he snarled!--that I will pay him $200./mo. for the use of that space!

Yeah right! Wait right here while I get my checkbook! Clearly, he is interested only in getting his way unopposed.

Setting boundaries is easy--enforcing them is not! It is so scary! Taking these risks feels scary in the beginning because it counters your dependency stuff. This is good for you, and it's normal to feel scared, as I'm sure you know by now. But, as I explained to him, my self respect depends on my doing just that! I cannot respect me if I allow myself to be bullied by him. Correct.

My H is the type that feels attacked and victimized when I set boundaries and there isn't anything I can do about that. Other than accept it, and do nothing. That's hard for me to accept, but I am powerless over him. It is also a great relief! You bet!

Other news: I have applied for a full time teaching position, but haven't heard anything yet. I'm a bit nervous, as I need to inform my present employers pretty soon if I'm not returning. I wish schools would post vacancies earlier in the summer! This position is at a small private K-8 school, so may not offer me much more than i make at my 2 part time positions. If there isn't much money, and no benefits, I'll stay where I am.

Theressa, your post on acceptance was good. I was thinking the same way about it.

It's late; think I'll grab a book and crawl into bed. Would you believe I have read 4 books since July 4th? I'm on a reading frenzy and I love it!

'Night all, 'Night Trubble! 'Night.... Zzzzz

Becky

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Good Evening all!

Dr. Irene

You said that I need to remove myself and my son from my husband if things are not good but to know what I was doing and not to do it impulsively. Could you please elaborate? Well, if you are hurting, and there is nothing you can do about it - especially if he's prone towards violence - you may have to get out. You need to formulate a plan. When you leave, it is because you mean business, not because you secretly want him to miss you and seek you out.

If I really feel that things are out of hand (abusive), is it alright to discuss this with my son. Generally, yes. Especially if you're going to take him with you if you leave, or if he's an anger target too. I guess I'm still getting used the idea of my husband's moods being "abusive". If he's in a good mood he goes along with everything my son wants (can't say no or won't because he'll have to enforce it)... if he's in a bad mood he's much more strict and son can't do anything. My son who is now 11 reacts angrily when my husband is in his no patience mood. We both walk on egg shells when my husband is in the "bad mood". Yes. You certainly talk with your kid. I used to react angrily as well. We had many, many fights over his moods, which lead to him being assessed. This is not something that showed up only at home. In the space of about 5 years, he left about 8 jobs. As I said, they said he had low self esteem, but no treatment followed. Typical. When our son started showing signs of extreme anxiety, I clued in that I had to lessen my reaction to my husband and not expose him to this anger. I've got it 90% licked. Excellent!

I can tell by his mood whether it's good idea for him and our son to be together. If he's in "that" mood they will be alone together for about 5 minutes and then one or the other will come storming up to me with a complaint about the other. One night they returned after being out of the house together for a while my son stormed in the house just furious because Dad was being a "jerk" again. I find this disrespectful when I hear it and am torn on what to do because It seems like every time I try to support my husband, I find out he's just been in his mood. I asked my son what had happened and through angry tears he told me that Dad said I didn't listen to him. My son, even at 11 can use some colourful language. I got after my son about showing respect and that he had to listen to dad the same as he did me and not to use bad language. I find out after a while that the problem was that my son had closed the door too hard on his truck. I thought, "Oh my god, not the door thing." Even before our son was born, when my husband was in a "mood," that's one of the things that he used to natter at me about and trust me you COULDN'T shut it to suit him. Explain to your son that you understand the rage he feels. Validate the injustice. Also tell him that while it may momentarily feel better to act out, doing so makes one more like him. Ask him if he wants to grow up like dad. Also point out how you used to get more angry and loud, but stopped it because it did no good and just diminished your self-esteem and personal power.

I was amazed when I read about "silent or subtle provocation". I believe this is a major factor in our home. When you have someone who:

a) withdraws; or b) becomes very nitpicky all of the sudden; or c) just walks around in a grumpy mood (his specialty is Christmas, family get-to-gethers, weddings, vacations, etc.)

You tend to get a little fed up and then your behaviour can start to be yukky. Yep.

One example of silent provocation...When we decide to have a family get-to-gether, I have to do the cooking and cleaning. When my son was an infant, I would ask him to help. He would do a little bit and then sit down. He would not look after our son. I run myself silly and about 15 or 20 minutes before our company arrives (he's done this many times), he'll start playing with our son (even though he hasn't paid attention to him all day (or all week) - and will act like the really great Dad when everyone arrives. After everyone leaves (all the mess is still there to be cleaned up), he'll go back to the couch. Typical. Sometimes when I get angry, I don't think my son has understood why - because he doesn't see the subtle or hidden stuff. If he does decide to play with our son, it's always in the front yard (not often) where someone is apt to see him and never in the back yard.

I know that my son can figure some of this stuff out because he said to me one day, "Dad only takes me to see so and so because he gets to visit with his friend. If there's nothing in for Dad, forget it." Smart kid. Validate him.

I've tried to support my husband when I could, but there were times that I just couldn't. How to I validate my son's feelings without threatening my husbands authority? Should my husband have authority if he abuses it? What do you say? It's important to validate your kid. Not validating him is confusing because internally he knows, yet the environment is telling him he's wrong and not to trust his feelings. Tell him that while it feels like a no-win with dad, it's not really so. He'll "win" if he doesn't let dad get to him - cuz that's what dad wants to do. Have you read Evan's The Verbally Abusive Relationship . ? Have you talked to domestic violence people? Do so!

Love Norma

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Friday, July 20, 2001

This post is more about me than Theressa, Perdida, Sharon or anyone else! Always, always, always!

OOOPS....My first reaction is to rush in and rescue everyone! Giggle...so I would have ended up telling Theressa it was ok to be preachy and Sharon it was sounding a bit edgy in her post and Perdida that she maybe is reading too much into it...... Giggle! You mean all the things I did? I love it when the student passes the teacher!

And hoping everyone would be friends and not disagree........ And that Theressa wouldn't feel shut out and leave.

And probably ending putting everyone's backs up!!!!

And feeling yucky as I was dishonest about what I really think: to keep the peace....... Sentiments most of us share...

OOOOH what a lovely recipe for disaster.....been here before ...so I am keeping my mouth shut.......incredibly hard as I really want to have my say....... A very good exercise for you Jay!

But in the end I guess that much though I would love to be indispensable and make it all ok, I am not really needed.......

If they did need me they can all contact me anyway.....

Is this progress for me or what? I am finally fixing nobody -unless they ask.... Giggle!

Giggle- anyone want the mess in my house after I tidied up...I have still created chaos............

Jay - who is now going into town to do some voluntary work and mind other peoples business on a help line! Because people are asking Jay. And, one day, you'll get paid for it.

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Kris,

Why not try answering these questions yourself, it really helped me to progress.

Why do you feel guilty? Is it because you don't think it was ok to move on and be happy? why not? who told you or made you think it was not okay to be happy?

Why do you have these feelings? Listen to her Kris...

Take care Theressa

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Dear Sharon,

I get the impression that you don't like my style. That is your choice. So if it pushed no one's buttons, that is okay. Maybe pushing others buttons is the wrong word. Maybe it got people thinking. That sounds better. Yes. That's more accurate.

Maybe I am wrong, suspicious - but I have an impression you think I am a know it all and am getting a kick out of pushing peoples buttons. Now I think your buttons are getting bopped. Please let Sharon have her feelings, even if her feelings do not reflect who you are.

Well I will explain my motives. I just want to share. If you have a problem with me sharing the way I do, then it isn't my issue it is yours. You are mad. Feeling rejected gets you mad? Why? (Yes, it's OK to explain especially since that's what we do here, but, please check out if you are having a hard time with rejection - cuz it's really all OK...

I will not feel bad about my style. Good! I spent years stepping on egg shells ever so lightly. I can't see any harm sharing a quote as I did. It was put on to the catbox just as information. Not to push buttons. But from my interpretation. It did. Maybe you don't agree. That is okay.

Though I sense you have an issue with my style, so maybe we can get this sort out in the open. That's fine too. Excellent to talk about what angers you - rather than to act it out. But what do you want Sharon to do? Explain herself? She got a bit upset, and that's her issue to consider if she wants. Now you're a bit upset, and that's your issue. My advice: Let it go Theressa. Accept that it's OK for her to find you "preachy." It's OK for others to disagree, misinterpret, etc.

I've heard it said that others think I think I know it all. My sisters for one. Though I explained to them, I don't think I know it all, I am just not afraid anymore to share what I learn, and to let go of worrying how others react as this is not my issue. OK!

Take care Theressa

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Hi All,

I am going to stop posting because I need to sit and do nothing. I think it is a button if it causes any reaction, it shows us stuff that is sensitive. Though as I said above it was meant to share, just like others share from books. It was a quote. Doing nothing is a viable reason to not post. When you've thought it through, I hope you'll come back and tell us.

As far as me being careless I don't agree. I am not in charge of walking on egg shells. How others react is not my issue. The information can be taken how others wish as it is to do with their stuff. Correct. Please let Sharon be; allow her to be who she is, buttons and all. (And to Sharon, I would say exactly the same about Theressa.)

I am no saint, though I am honest at the same time. For many years I lied to myself and to others. I tip-toed around afraid to say it like it is. I worried unnecessarily about every statement I used/said.

I don't agree sharing what Ron shared with me and I share here is wrong. Our purpose is to be honest. Though what I did learn from Sharon is tact. Yes and this is what this anonymous poster was not given. I realised when Sharon told me I was too blunt about one of her posts, that we have to recognise what stage people are at.

If I sound preachy that is not the way it is meant. I just say it how it is. Maybe I could make you all feel comfortable and familiar by bending the truth and not sharing things I've used to wake up and grow.

Maybe if I walked on egg shells you'd all feel better. Well I won't do this because I don't want to go back into denial.

As for forgetting to sign my post, it is an honest mistake. Aren't mistakes allowed here. Aren't I human?

I have faults. One of them is/was worrying so much about what others thought. Well if others can't accept a human mistake then maybe I am in the wrong place.

I want to grow and make mistakes if this isn't allowed I guess it is the wrong place for me.

So if no one ever uses the words your abuser used how are you ever gonna fix your sensitivities to them? The trick is you hear them and you work on reasoning the new meaning to them.

I am working on this myself. I was always so reactive to people joking and winding me up. Even though I realise it is just their personalities at times. And not an attempt to single me out, it is something they do to everyone. So I don't have to take it personal. Though I can still choose to ask them not to do it to me.

I made a mistake, I forgot to sign my post. Though what I would like to know is it cuz I didn't sign my post? or is it the contents in which the poem was taken that is the issue?

If it made people think is that a bad thing? If we are not to feel reactions and check out our thoughts, and then reason these thoughts, whether the contents in some contexts such as a healthy relationship are useful. Granted not in a abusive one. Isn't this the goal?

As I say it is obvious to me, from my reality that what I interpret is that you want me to tip-toe around, well I won't so I guess the only option is to leave.

**Dearest Jay I will contact you from e-mail from now on, since I am going to take my rejection healthily and detach and get on with living my life.

I don't feel right now that posting here and sharing is the right thing to do. I need to be alone and do nothing for now.

Take care, thanks to all who have helped me, though I can handle rejection now and so I won't be inflicting my preaching on any more of you.

Oh boy... You're off on a tangent dear Theressa... Taking this stuff all too personally...

Theressa, signing off, Dr Irene thanks for all your help though I think my time is up in the catbox. Too much reactivity I am not in the strength to deal with. I wanted to help maybe my trubble is I am trying too hard to fix others. What do I care if they ever get it!! Not my issue. I am gonna stop this unproductive helping now. Your time in the CatBox is not over. You do have the strenght to deal with this stuff. In fact, this is the "stuff" of every day life, and you'd better learn how to deal with it - without taking stuff so personally.

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Friday, July 20, 2001

WOW I blew it, I reacted. My stuff.

Nothing personal SHARON or PERIDA, it is about me. Yes. Theressa's button. Storming off. Well I am now ready to be an adult, so if you can forgive my last two posts, maybe the child part or me can stop acting out. Giggle! That was fast!

YES I was reactive. Though I am now ready to return and learn.

Why do you find me preachy? This is important to me because I've heard this before!! So I want to fix it. If you could give me some feedback I'd like to hear it.

Promise I won't react!!! (Giggle! By the way, all of you guys have permission to react. You learn from it!)

Trubble I need a cuddle can you give me one!! The cake was lovely, thank you. Cuddle

As for leaving the catbox I guess I have too much to learn, so I am gonna swallow my pride, and live out of my integrity, so ~~I am afraid sorry to disappoint~~ I will stay.

Thank you Theressa for accepting the reactive part of me. Theressa

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Dr Irene did I just do this out of my neediness? As I couldn't stay away!!! No. I think you realized you took Sharon and Perdida's reaction too personally and got all bent out of shape and insulted for no reason at all. Can you allow them to see things the way they see things? (Since you have no control over how they see things anyway?)

Take care Theressa

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Dear All,

I want to share this, which I got off one of the self growth newsletters I receive. It may help some, it helped me.

To dream anything that you want to dream, that is the beauty of the huma nmind. To do anything that you want to do, that is the strength of the human will. To trust yourself, to test your limits, that is the courage to succeed. - Bernard Edmonds, American Writer

Take care ~~Theressa~~ Giggle! I couldn't resist!

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Hi All,

Just something I want to share, it may help some of you?

---------------------------------------------------- ** HOW TO ATTRACT TERRIFIC PEOPLE - written by Mike Moore ** Thanks for the author credit!------------------

I remember asking my Dad, when I was 16, how I could become charming. I must admit that my motives were hormonally inspired at the time, but what he said to me has effected my life and relationships ever since. He looked at me and said, " Son, you become charming by making another person feel better about themselves when they are in your company." What wisdom!

With my Dad's wisdom ringing in my ears I offer you a few suggestions on how to do just that- make someone feel better about themselves when in your company.

* Be alert for any chance to praise another.

* Be fun to be with.

* Be genuinely concerned about what's going on in the life of the other.

* Suspend your agenda in the interest of the other's.

* Encourage and affirm your friend at every opportunity.

* Listen twice as much as you talk.

* Give genuine compliments, frequently.

* Accept the person as they are and not as you want them to be.

* Ask questions and listen to their answers. There is a difference between prying and being interested.

* Be enthusiastic.

* Be a friend without conditions.

There is nothing more flattering or rare than the undivided attention of another.

It is more important to be interested than interesting.

You are invited to subscribe to Mike's free Lifeline newsletter at http://www.motivationalplus.com

About the author Mike Moore is an international speaker and writer on human potential and motivation. You can check out his books, tapes and manuals at http://www.motivationalplus.com

---------------------------------------------------- ** 10 SIMPLE THINGS YOU CAN DO to IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONSHIPS –written by Susie and Otto Collins ** ------------------------------------------------------------

1) Start Your Day off with a prayer of gratitude.

This is how we start each and every day. Before our feet ever hit the ground in the morning --we say a prayer of gratitude for all the good things about our lives.

By doing this what we find is that it sets the tone for the day in a very positive way. We express gratitude for each other, the people in our lives and the abundance that surrounds us all.

2) Make your relationships a priority.

If your relationships aren't what you want them to be-- one of the reasons may be that you haven't made them a priority.

Whether it be with your intimate partner, your mate, the people you work with, the people in the social organizations you belong to or the people you meet on the street---make ALL your relationships important-- More important than getting things done.

3) Turn off the TV or Stop spending so much time on the Internet

Start reading self development or inspirational books -- maybe a chapter a night with someone you care about and then discuss the important discoveries you make about yourself and each other.

We suggest Gary Zukav's Seat of The Soul, Don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements and Gay Hendricks book Conscious Living as good books to start with.

4) Be present in All your relationships

In every relationship you're in and in every personal encounter give whomever you're with your full attention. Giving another person your full attention is as good of a gift as you can give anyone.

5) Love the other people in your life the way they want to be loved and not how you think they want to be loved.

Believe it or not there is a difference in almost all cases because we all come from a different set of circumstances and experiences.

So take the time to ask the people in your life-- "how do you want to be treated or loved?"

Then treat them that way.

6) Speak your truth in all your relationships

Sometimes we think we are being kind to another when we hold back from telling another person how we are feeling. We've found that if you want your relationships to be real and authentic instead of being mired in fear, you need to speak your truth.

7) Honor the people in your life even when they're not present.

If you have an issue with someone that needs to be addressed--be sure to address it with that person and not make it a part of water cooler conversation at work.

8) Listen to self-development or inspiring tapes in the car instead of the radio.

The average person will spend over 750 hours a year in a car traveling somewhere. You can be using that time for personal and spiritual growth instead of listening to the latest information about wrecks and drug busts on the news.

9) Don't take anything personally

This is great advice and is one of the four agreements from Don Miguel Ruiz's book--The Four Agreements.

If someone else is having a bad day it may have nothing to do with you. If someone you come in contact with is inconsiderate or rude just practice sending them love instead of taking offense. You have no idea what things may be happening in the life of that other person.

10) Tell the people in your life how much they mean to you

Otto's father has had a saying for many years that he wants his flowers while he's living.

What this means is, he wants to know how much the other people in his life care now instead of after he is gone.

Honor the people you love today. Don't wait.

You can get more articles like this from: editors@selfgrowth.com

and the website: http://www.selfgrowth.com

Thanks Theressa Thank you!

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Dr Irene

What is your definition of "going into someone's space" or crossing a boundary? As individuals aren't we all different about how we regard our space, and what space is "ours"? Your boundaries include everything about you. Your tastes and preferences, your body, your thoughts, your reactions, your feelings, your color hair, your prejudices, etc., etc., etc. These things don't very. They just are.

I notice that people are constantly crossing boundaries that they don't know even exist. Yes. And others are feeling their boundaries are "crossed" when the person who crossed them had no idea. Yes.

I know that when my boundaries are crossed it just comes as a "feeling". It doesn't mean that the person who crossed them necessarily did something "wrong", it's just my own personal limit. Correct. It's good that you don't "automatically" get mad at a violation. I've learned that people don't automatically "know" and it's my job to tell them if I don't want it to continue. Exactly!

Some people tend to be more generous with their "space" while others are not. I think it's inevitable that we will bump into peoples boundaries now and again. You bet!

If I'm riled because of something my partner did or didn't do - am I "infringing on his boundaries" by talking to him about it, just because he feels I am? You are allowed to be riled, but if he doesn't want to hear it, you are in his space. (I know, "But then he'll just what he wants when he wants!) Well, you tried to communicate and he didn't want to hear it. So be it. Now you pull away physically and emotionally because it's silly to do much else. Somehow I'm getting the feeling that it is (even if I don't know I’m “infringing”) and that boundaries aren't necessarily "healthy". This can be especially difficult if the "boundary" somehow affects the other party's space also. An example is an ex boyfriend of mine who decided that Friday night was "his night", which basically just meant that he could watch whatever shows he wanted on tv. Only problem was it was *my* tv, and I had never agreed to this. Yes. He can have his Friday on the TV, in his house. And if being alone every Friday is not OK with you - you walk away.

I think boundaries when taken too far become "walls" and can shut people out. Correct again. You must be reading the family therapy literature! I get the feeling that even "walls" need to be honored to some degree (though they make a healthy partnership impossible). You can only go in as much as you are invited to.

I think one of my boundary issues with Steve has a lot to do with communication (how much, when etc.). Yes! I used to feel “shut down” most of the time, like he really wasn’t interested in much that I had to say, and that I had to communicate only in certain ways (short phrases being careful not to repeat myself) in order to be listened to. I felt controlled and not free to be myself. Not OK. It's your job to be yourSelf. It's also your job to let Steve grunt or whatever he does when he does it. You can let him know a couple times that you find the grunting distasteful, but if he continues to grunt, you have no sane option but to pull away from him. Not in anger, I hope, but because there is no point in fighting City Hall.

I guess one of my problems with Steve is that I waiver between just moving on with my personal life - accepting what he does without communicating how I feel about it (because I guess it's not supposed to "matter"), and (knowing that at times he does seem to want to work things out), communicating and telling him how I feel about issues that concern me. If you pay attention to his "cues" you'll recognize when it's OK to talk and when it's not. If you feel there is too much time you can't talk, you pull away. Chasing someone down never works...

I told Steve that I want to be "in" or out of the relationship because it's too painful as it is (it’s basically been a friendship, with few expectations, still hanging out together a lot). I also mentioned that if he was willing to help out to pick a counselor who we could meet on a regular basis, that I would be willing to give the personal stuff a try, taking things slowly. I just feel that there is so much damage done, that I need a mediator to talk to when things get yucky - so they don't get ‘out of control’ as they inevitably do. I really hope you two find a counselor! Each of you is expert at pushing the other's buttons. You have so much to learn from one another!

Steve said he needs to structure in his own life before he can do this, and I respect this. Good. I just don't want to be in limbo, and believe me, it's really hard when you run a business together to have a clean break, if that's the objective. For now, I'm doing my best to keep my personal life separate from his. Good plan. I don't know exactly how this will work because we've been friends for so long and we still do work together. Steve probably thinks I'm trying to hurt him by doing this, but I think by now he must understand to some degree. I think he probably understands fully, though he may have mixed feelings about it.

I noticed myself feeling angry at him recently because he cancelled his invitation to an event we were both supposed to go to for work. He has cancelled out on things a few times before and that's a button for me. It used to be that I felt "responsible" because I would book our spots and then have to explain why he wasn't there. Excellent observation. This wasn't the case this time though, because I didn't make myself responsible for booking him in the first place and he had booked it himself. Good! He also contacted the person directly to cancel. Excellent! I still felt kind of mad at him though. I think this is because of all the old patterns that I'm so familiar with - my being "responsible" for him, passive aggressive “retribution” stuff, not being invited to go with him to social events, or the cancellations we made to social events because of some personal "catastrophe"... Really it’s totally up to him whether he cancels or doesn’t and there is no reason for me to care. Right. His stuff. No need to make it yours. If we were in a relationship though, I would want him to understand what that button is about. It's fine that he understand, but don't expect that his understanding should have an effect on his behavior. He should not "fix" his cancellation button because it bothers you, though that you are allergic to cancellation may motivate him to fix it. Perhaps he'll realize his cancellation is poorly tolerated by many and he loses out. So, if he chooses to fix it, he should do so for his own reasons. For you: Why not just get rid of the button? Or, why not just *expect* that he'll cancel (I'm sure he was canceling long before he met you!). How could I initiate healthy communication without it being “pressure”? Right now, I think you have to accept that you can't. I find that the result of *not* communicating is that Steve attributes his own reasons to my anger which often cause even more misunderstanding. There is nothing you can do about that Asha. Stop doing his job for him... Yes, I know it's frustrating... It seems, from your perspective, such a simple thing. And it is, but only from your perspective... Let it go, and Steve may pick it up...

I wonder if we are just 2 people with values differences so great that neither of us would ever be truly happy, yet we are "codependently" hanging on by a thread... I think you two have much to teach and learn from the other...

Asha

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Steve here

Theressa: "I want to grow and make mistakes - if this isn't allowed I guess it is the wrong place for me. "

Don't even think it Theressa. You have helped me tremendously. As I watch you grow, I also grow some of the same parts with you. I would not be happy if you left this place. Yeah!

I think, you are just feeling a little hurt by some responses. And you yourself said that is "your stuff". Feeling hurt etc.

You ARE allowed to make mistakes. And so am I and so are those who seem to hurt us.

By the way, I find everyone here preachy at times, including myself. Me too. I think what some people see in you is what I see in Asha sometimes. A great and sincere attempt to help others. Sometimes people don't want help though, and THEY take it personally. That is one of my problems. Excellent Steve! When Asha tries to help me when I don't want it, I tend to feel controlled. I shouldn't. That is something I need to work on and I shall. Yippeee!

Anyways Theressa, I think you know how much we all appreciate your input. And you are allowed to be "stormy" at times. Your storms are like gentle whirlwinds compared to some of my tornadoes I shot off when I first found this place. Grin. Giggle! You were fun Steve! You even riled me, and caught my yukky post before I could undo it!

Take care Theressa, and make it a great day! You too.

Steve

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Dear Theresa,

Sharon here.

If I could draw you a great big chocolate cake with butter cream frosting I would. Maybe Trubble could help me have that arranged. You bet! Chocolate Peace Cake...

This is all part of sharing I think! Having disagreements - stating opinions - sharing thoughts - though everyone has different thoughts (let us hope) is a fact of LIFE!!!

I have learned that if someone can't afford to get a bloody nose every now and then - they don't need to be in the ring!

I've had lots of bloody noses in my life, Theresa, as I'm sure you have to. Don't give up the fight of sharing!!!!! Embrace the fact that its part of growing - because it is!!!!! We can disagree with love - we can even tit-for-tat in kind. But its not personal. Its just sharing thoughts, ideas, emotional states, etc. and we are all different in our approach. Thank God! Yeah!

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Friday, July 20, 2001

Asha,

I know how you are feeling. I to am trying this friendship thing whilst we work on our issues, yet we see each other everyday.

I am to like you trying to work on my anxiety issues. These seem to be similar to yours. I know how frustrating this is. Though I think it is worth the work since ALL my relationships and not just my romantic one I seem to behave similar and it hurts me.

I do talk alot and at times try to keep or focus too much on one persons attention. I know it is because I fear silence.

I know I eat chocolate because I find it so hard to sit with my feelings. I know I don't go to bed early enough and then I am too tired to do my coursework.

Etc.

And at times it feels hard to make all these changes and yet feel accepting of myself. It feels at times like I must change to feel whole. So at times I am in conflict with myself over on the one hand making the improvements and on the other accepting me as I am.

My partner as Steve does points out my flaws, the things I need to work on. In fact you see how I reacted when Perida called me "Preachy" though my partner is getting more tactful.

At times I feel like he is just telling me how to be better and him do no work, but then I talk to him and find over time he to is changing his perspective by what I say.

It is just I am not so blunt. I will tell him about what I've been learning and leave it at that. This works best. I guess that is what I should do in the catbox, say what I am learning, what is working for me and then let others choose if they want it or not, instead of me sounding judge mental.

At times I feel if only I could stay the same and shot all this learning and analysising in the bin. Well I could and I would stay stuck. I never thought I'd be able to discuss things with my partner and then call a halt when it was going out of control.

I did this the other day. I told him I didn't think it was a good use of my energy arguing over this stuff. He stopped and we changed the subject. Yippeee!

I also note I am defensive and defend others when I have no need to. As Dr Irene clarified today to you. What does it matter what my partner or in your case (Steve thinks). For me I was defending a relative who my partner doesn't like. Instead of just accepting he doesn't like him and also that in fact my partner was correct in sharing his feelings about this persons behaviour. AND had it been another person my partner was speaking about, I would have agreed.

I instead argued my relatives case instead of saying "Okay that is my partners opinion and it is his choice what opinion he takes. and that is his choice. that is okay.

NOW to what you ask Asha:

I used to have walls. Walls are inflexible. Many times my partner has said "Theressa you are being defensive and won't listen to anything I have to say."

He was correct. I didn't want to change my mind in any way. IT was set. Though this is not healthy. If we can just listen to what others say then go away and thinking about it. Then we do ourselves good.

The other week my partner commented on something. In the past I would have reacted. But I didn't I sat very uncomfortably and then went home and thought about it. I decided after all he was right, and by challenging my thoughts on this I grew.

ME TO ASHA, my partner doesn't like to talk much. In fact he finds it hard to hear my opinions. BUT he wants me to hear his. That is why I have learnt to just say what I think, and not try to convince him. Just say I think xxxxx and then leave it at that. In the past I would try to get him to see my way. WHAT MAGICAL THING happens when I just put it out their, my opinions.

Well some time/weeks later he will say do you know I think xxxx. AND it is usually his thoughts have been modified to similar to what I was trying to say.

I think the point is I gave him chance to choose to take or leave my advice.

Asha have you tried telling Steve that you value his attention, him listening to you.

Though Asha I find sometimes I talk about others, their problems and issues and my partner shuts down. Do you do this with Steve?

I am learning a conversations is about others learning about me, and me learning about them. SO the main basis of the conversation should be about ME my views, my issues, and the other part about them, their is