Comments for Cat Box 4

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Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

Dear All,

I think we are taking over Dr. Irene's site! If this keeps up, we'll fill up every available inch of cyber-space, and then what!? Go for it!

I just finished scrolling through cat box 3, and I probably won't remember everything that was said or what I wanted to reply to, but I'll try.

First, Dr. Irene, thanks so much for spending time with this group! I feel I should pay you! Spending time on this site, and reading your comments to me helps tremendously, and probably makes me easier to deal with when I see my own therapist! :-) She likes your site, by the way. Thanks!

You are right--I do know what needs to be done, and I don't like it. I know that, barring some sudden turn around in him, I will have to take a very strong stand. I've come very close, once even getting his suitcase out and telling him to pack it! But that was foolish of me, because I NEED to be calm and level headed, and have my ducks in a row before I do that. For now, I'm working on detaching, and when something happens, and I don't react the way I should, I always spend time thinking about that, and planning what I'll do if and when it happens again. The feeling of control (over myself) that that gives me helps keep me focused and calm. But it's been hard the last few weeks; I've felt very rocky off and on!

Patricia Evans' book: in retrospect, I don't think that was the best book to give him, but I don't have any others that deal with the subject. I agree that she's hard on the abuser, but I wanted him to read it mainly to understand the effects of abuse on the victim (I HATE that word! Is there another we could use?) I have since come to realize that he's very good at protecting himself from seeing, and feeling, the consequences of his actions. He seems to think that if HE says I shouldn't be hurt, then that's the truth--'nuff said. I think controllers really need to define reality, not only for themselves, but others, too. And if the truth has to be dispensed with, so be it. Anyway, he needs to read something that will give him insight into himself, THEN he'll be open to understanding how his behavior affects me.

You mentioned (to Lynn I think) that there's a fine line between spouse and therapist. When I try to be "therapist," he resents it, yet he seems to want me to play that role, as in "How do I learn to be empathetic?" or "What should I do to not be abusive?" I'm tired of answering these questions then having him ignore or invalidate me, or deny that he's got a problem in the first place! He is quite upset with me, and tries to make me feel that I'M failing the marriage because I've been telling him to find those answers out for himself. But you know, ever since I've started doing that, I feel like a lot of weight has been lifted off my shoulders. You are right, Dr. Irene, as long as I care, he doesn't have to. I just can't go on caring for BOTH of us!

By the way--he is into Edgar Cayce, too! So you two would probably have some interesting things to talk about! I have nothing against interest in these things; I just think that some people use them as a substitute for real life, and that my H, in the past, was at risk for doing that. I could be wrong, of course, since I only know what he's chosen to tell me.

Re: the conversation about household repairs, remodeling, etc. I don't have the money to hire it done, and he absolutely won't consider it! In fact, my desire that we hire at least some of this out is, in his opinion, indicative of something "wrong" with me. It makes no sense to him to hire someone to do what he can do himself. Ironically, he's in a service business, and depends on people not "doing it themselves."

To Lynn, Dan, AK and AngryGirl, I find your posts helpful and enlightening, and I thank each of you for sharing! Because of my work schedule, I can't attend a support group, but you guys, and the folks on the message boards are a great substitute for that.

I hope we all have great week. My H is coming home tonight, and I am getting myself together, working on feeling calm and yes, DETACHED! Wish me luck!  Good luck!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Hi Becky, Hello Group.

Trubble maybe you should re name us the Chatty Cattie's ? I read your post and will get back to you. We just read the "Blue Prints" on page 3 and are deep in thought here. We want to re read them, too.

Will talk to you later and the best of everything. I have decided this is teaching us old cats new tricks so keep up the good work.

Love and Prayers to all, Lynn

PS. Dr. Irene. Dan doesn't get the tough stuff like the coffee table in the shower until he's had 9 months to conceive of a plan and give birth to it. Then....... and only then do I resort to devious tactics. :) I love lobster ^_^ Me-ow!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

....continued. Dan just got the lawn umbrella unstuck and now it's thawing in his shower! If it's there 9 months from now I'm going to take drastic action. Hugs Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Group, Lynn again,

To Becky,

What a great post, very insightful. I can really relate to what you said about us trying to fix them. The fine line between therapist and spouse. I've found with Dan that he would share things with me, that he wouldn't with our former therapist. (We are going to a new lady, if we can catch up with her, and aren't going back to the old one or her group).

Somewhere in my hurry I got so that I felt I knew exactly what was wrong with HIM and that if I could only fix it we would have no more problems. Made it sound like I had /have none. What has really helped me here is the rest of you. Like a sounding board and then I go back and read and re read and then listen to what Doc and Trubble have to say and I might have come up with the point she is trying to get across.

So, very soon I will try and get a post about me and my childhood. Just me.

My next thought and I think this is a biggie. Remember though that I am a plunge in first and then check if the water's too cold, but I think we have to take the chance to get the guys here. We can get as well as we want and understand them as best we can, yet we are a team. I didn't feel we had anything to lose by showing this site to Dan and then I left him alone. Remember......I wasn't talking to him. I find this on Dr. Irene's Working it Out site. It is for couples working it out and Dan is the only male signed up. I didn't get into this to work it out alone. In fact I was pleasantly surprised at his awakening and awareness. We still had some rough times and I'm sure we will, but at least he's into this, too.

Dr. Irene talks about our culture and how men are taught and I want to know who wrote that book of rules. Like G, it's OK to tell it and then let the chips fall, so to speak. That's what I like so much about Dr. Irene. She tells it like it is, but then says "it's ok."

I think what I'm trying to suggest, give your H the chance to be the man you thought he was when you met and married him. Dan and I had a pretty good 5 years. The last 5 weren't ALL bad, but we kept running in circles. We got into a time warp and couldn't see our way out and it kept going down hill. It felt really yukky!!! We have gotten into some conversations the last month that 3 months ago would have had us screeching at each other.

That has to be because we're both here. I'm not a big one on secrets anyhow, and I figured what the heck. I was going to leave him anyhow.

Same AK and AngryGirl,

If we give them the chance this might be helpful to all of us. Dan can read your posts and get glimmers of our relationship and I think he feels like he isn't the only one being picked on.

Speaking of Edgar Cayce, my mother use to read him and I still have all her books. One other one that Dan read and I think it helped was The Power of Positive Thinking.

When he applied for the bossing job he has he couldn't believe he'd get it. I couldn't believe he wouldn't! He came home one day and told me he was accepted and I simply said, "Well, of course you were." He had all of the qualifications, training, know how and all the other stuff so I couldn't believe he thought they would bring in someone else.

Keep up the good work all of you. And I think I will go over my childhood a couple more times. Let Dan work on his. Same with Viet Nam and I have a maybe on this. Why not put it on his computer and then it's there to read like this site. I never had much luck with a journal or diary as I never go back and read it. I do here.

Maybe, Dr. Irene, there is a thought. Someone should get a web site like this for Viet Nam Vets.  What are you doing in your spare time? :) Ok Dan, then how about you?????

As for changing the name of abuse to something else, I vote no. It's like a root canal to me. By any other name, it is the same.

Ah, the Sunday Stream Of Consciousness. Ready to plunge into another week of health, insight and recovery.

Thanks Doc and Trubble, is there room in that pond for a few fresh salmon?  You bet!

Love, prayers and Luck to All, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and cat box family,

I do think of us as family now, an extended one to be sure but we seem to communicate about our problems the way a family does, with a person and cat (Dr Irene and Trubble) to act as mediators.

Dr Irene, the umbrella in my shower/tub will be there until it dries out, of course Lynn said nine months, well that's how long winter usually lasts so I'd be safe leaving it there until Spring. Ha, Ha. Seriously, we have been posting and sitting on the edge of our seats for your input as though our very lives depended on it, and personally, our lives have been better for them, thank you.

Trubble, I'm really not a good judge of a good looking man but if you say white with greybrown stripes, I'll settle for that.

To All,

I have read page 3 with the comments from Dr Irene and Trubble, S A L M O N, but I want to go back and reread them. Some of the comments about my mothers', Lynns' and my boundaries are so on the mark. I also have to thank Lynn, for her support when I applied and got this job that I now have, I really did have doubts about it even though she told me, as did my boss and others at work, that I had a better chance than most.

We have been watching Brian Dennehy movies, just to get lost in the make believe world for the last couple of days. I have really been wrung out after posting about my childhood that it's nice to vacation once in a while, even if it's at home.

I am going to interject a little story about my dad here because I've written about my mother and he deserves his break. My younger brother, the one with DD, and I had pups when we were around 1 and 5 respectively, and one of them bit my brother, my dad was going to find out which one, so he put food out and stuck his hand in the dishes, my dog bit him, so it was my dog that got destroyed. To this day, I feel that that was not the proper way of testing, any dog will bite when protecting their food. I was crying and pleading with him not to kill my dog, I was very sad and also I resented the other dog and also my brother because I just knew that my dog didn't bite him (my brother). My dad said, that it was a good lesson on understanding that we sometimes lose something which we care about. I learned the lesson well. I wrote in an earlier post about my grandmother When she died, I was so understanding, I called the Dr every name in the book, even told my mother that she could take her God (underlined) and put him where the sun doesn't shine. I think that day was one of the few days where I allowed my anger free rein, and I hope that the emotional outburst will be taken with a grain of salt by the man upstairs. I think back on that day now, and really feel that the Great Spirit was testing my beliefs.

I have to put in here that she died after I had come back from VN, and I was into my drinking stage at the time, although I was sober when I said this. She was also the only on whom seemed to understand about my drinking and once told my uncle to leave me alone that I knew what I was doing. I really didn't, but she had faith in me.

I hope that this isn't too depressing for you as right now, I'm becoming very emotional so I am going to sign off until my next post.   This is good Dan. It's good to own this painful stuff. Now you can deal with it.

Dan 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

Sorry about the double posting. It said Dr. Irene is too busy to use right now, but sometimes they go in anyhow.

Dan  Wow! Never heard that one before. Don't worry about doubles or triples or whatever...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dar Dr Irene, Trubble and cat box family,

Sorry about that, I thought that I had all the grieving over my grandmother over with, I guess, there are times when it wallops you unexpectedly and this last post was one of them.

While I was being emotional, crying, two of the cats started fighting, knocking over dishes, the dogs came up, one barking the other licking my face and the smoke alarm went off. Nothing serious, it does that whenever the oven is being used.

Anyway, back to what I was trying to get to when I had to stop.

Becky, your H seems to be afraid that if he shows any weakness, you'll think less of him, thus the statement about others not doing whatever the proper way. I can't say about his not wanting or hiring someone to work around the house. I asked Lynn once if she was trying to make me look a fool when she hired somebody to finish a job that I didn't get to. Maybe if you tried a little eyelid flutter he would consent to getting someone to do this. A high school student, college student or someone who is out of work and would really appreciate the work. Here they have a day laborer list at the unemployment office, for just those type of people.

Hugs and pleasant thoughts to all.

Trubble, I didn't stockpile the salmon, I haven't even gone looking for them yet.   :(

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Sunday evening and while eating we re read #3. Thanks Doc. Big big one I think. About Dan and his grandmother. I was sitting on his lap not saying anything (see, I have someone else to hear me, so I don't have to talk to Dan all the time) and he wondered why his grandmother's death affected him so bad now? Shhhhhhhhhhh Let him figure it out? I wasn't that smart, Trubble, but as he reread # 3 he figured it out for himself and then we went "OH"

Dear Becky,

I'm simply worried about us in the cat box having enough cyber space. Let the others take care of their own.....^_^ They are welcome if they want to join our cyber space anyway.

Dr. Irene,

As for first names, last names, I told you I have no imagination. If we used someone else's name I would have forgotten it was me. We did this in our old therapy. She (the therapist) would ask me to talk to Dan like she wasn't there. I couldn't, as she was there! Sooooo Black and White. Anyhow with F____stein you can all use your imaginations and call us the Frankensteins'. And there is snow on the slopes of Transylvania, with an umbrella in our shower. There, now nobody will ID us. I love it!

Dear Trubble and AK,

What do you mean write a book? This is a book! And remember guys, I like happy endings, so I think I'll write myself one. We're only on Chapter 4 now, so I have a few plots and sub plots to untangle before we ride off into the sunset. Can't beat the cast of characters, tho...

Now the big one. Am I right Dr. Irene? Dan wanted me mad about the turkey, so didn't let up until I got mad? We are both here reading this tonight and did he need to beat himself up Dan: Don't ever beat yourself up again! When you notice you are doing it, just STOP! Kick yourself out of beat up mode. about ruining the dinner and then worked and worked until he found a way to trip my trigger about it (which I let him) and then said, "see I did ruin your dinner!"

Well Trubble, just wait for the Happy Ending and we'll sail off to Alaska and get you fresh everything.

Now when and where is this reunion scheduled? Alaska? Lots of Salmon there...

Love to All, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and Cat Box Family,

I was sitting here pondering, wondering, and just looking at myself as Dan.

I was wondering why posting about my grandmother would affect me the way that it did this afternoon as I thought that I had got that all out of my system. During dinner, Lynn and I re read the comments from Dr Irene on #3, and I think that I figured it out. It was your comment at the end about my grandmother teaching me love, I'm paraphrasing here. This is very true as she was the only one who seemed to accept me for me, not someone who could clean the house, babysit, or do any of the other odd little jobs which needed to be done. Grandma "saved" you, emotionally. Otherwise, you would not have had a role model for love.

I remember spending a couple of weeks a summer with her and of course I had my chores, but she let me be a kid. There were always milk and cookies when the chores were done or when I came in from playing.

The thing which I still don't really understand is why, I don't remember my real young childhood, as I know that I had people who cared for me other than my parents. Typically, when people don't remember childhood, it was not a good childhood. My aunt with scoliosis (sp), my godparents, who lived downstairs, and my oldest half sister. A funny story concerning my aunt, she was sleeping and I wanted her to play with me - so I got mad at her for sleeping and was going to wake her up. With a hammer. She woke up just as I was raising it over my head to swing it down. Every time that she has told me this story she laughs, Thanks to the Great Spirit for waking her, because I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had succeeded, then or now. I know that there is no hard feelings on her part, and she has said that I am her favorite nephew. You have to wonder what type of role modeling you received in your house to come up with such an inventive way of waking her! Somebody taught you this stuff kiddo. My godparents are deceased now, but they watched over me like a mother hen with her chicks. My godmother would let me wipe out her ashtrays with her doilies and laugh about how clean I kept them. This is another story told to me by my godparents when I was a little older. I think that from these little tidbits that I didn't have a really bad youngsterhood. (Between 1 and 5) when we moved to another neighborhood. And of course my grandmother.

I don't have the knowledge to decipher this but I wonder if the reason that I blocked out that time in my life is because the other time outshined it and keeps them locked up.  

It seems that I had some very caring people in my life, but the memories that are in the forefront are those which have become issues keeping me from my Self. It's easy to feel angry and throw the baby out with the bathwater. More likely, my guess is that despite the love and the warmth you did get, you also got a lot of junk and abuse from others. So, it was not all in all such a wonderful time. Don't forget, little kids are still emotionally smart. Stuff hurts them since they haven't yet learned to turn the pain off and detach from the Self.

I have said how I can see myself in some of the posts from AK, Becky, AngryGirl and even jealousy for as little as she has posted. I can also see me in Gs' site, probably more so as I know that inner shame can produce feelings of insecurity, rage, guilt, in some cases superiority, and all the other locked emotions associated with being an abuser.

I wish all happiness in their endeavors, hugs to you all and to G a thanks for putting down exactly what makes an abuser.

Dr Irene, I appreciate all that you are guiding me to do.

Trubble, I'm sorry about getting your color wrong, but I had to re read in order to know that. It's the same difference as chicken mixed with rice and S A L M O N.  Yeah!

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

I think this one is for you. Hi guys, this is Lynn. Got me a thinking ........passive-aggressive behavior. Dan and I both smoke and I know accidents happen, I'm not talking one or two in this instance. We have a Nintendo game attached to the TV in the bedroom and we use to spend a lot of time in there. Dan would light a cigarette and it would fall on the floor and burn a hole in the rug, or on the table cover. A few in the quilt. I went the rounds on this one too and lost, but I'm not talking one or two, there are about 17 burn holes there. Then we got new carpet in his bathroom. There is an ashtray in the bathroom. He put a lit cigarette on the edge of the sink and it fell on the floor and burned a hole while he was in the shower.

I had Dan make me one of those cutsie ironing boards with a step ladder and then the top is a stool and the underneath is the back of the stool. I upholstered this and had the top to match, we both put quite a bit of work into it. One morning I got up and must have been going to iron, as I moved an ashtray off the top and there was a burn hole in it underneath the ashtray. The butt had been picked up. I think I said, "Dan?" He acted surprised and told me he was sorry, accidents happen and that he didn't know when he could have done it. I cried over that one.

I dropped it (see, I guess I knew some disengage) and just said H___ with you, if you want to burn the house down, do so, etc. Until now I have forgotten about it and it's not an issue now. I'll bet there are a few more I've forgotten and I just mentioned this to help me understand passive aggression. This again wasn't about me, was it? For Dan, it was about Dan. For you, your pain was about you.

All I came up with in my mind was that I didn't think he was showing much respect for me or my things. No...  

Ok, just thinking aloud, I do know that over the last few years I've become more and more "casual" with my housework. That's my word for the place is a plain mess! 

Thanks and I think I'm right here, too. He is making quite an effort, isn't he? I've been very careful not to rehash his posts with him. I am not his therapist. I can see where one post leads to another and yet another. And by this I don't just mean ours. He laughs at Becky's husband and thinks they sound like brothers. Dan is doing a great job. All his stuff is sincere. So are you.

Another thing with us. Our 9 month rule works good here, because until 9 (or thereabouts) months are up I don't get to mention IT. If after 9 months she hasn't delivered, then I am allowed to get creative. Some of his things would get me so mad I could scream. He has the ability to crawl over something big to get into the kitchen and then ask me if I've seen it. We sat down years ago and tried to come up with a reasonable compromise and he figured a couple of months. That's when I asked if 9 would do. I have to abide by the rules, too. We have an extra bathtub in the middle room. It's a super dooper whirlpool. But I can not and will not make any comments about this until ............ These we can pretty much laugh at.

Thank you again Dr. Irene, Kitties and Trubble. Loco doesn't even get a meow today. He's done nothing except bleat for Pounce.

Hope it worked out good Becky,

Loves and Prayers and Hugs, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean we laugh AT at your Hubby, we laugh at the similarities between the things they both do around the house.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear AK, Becky AngryGirl, Doc and Trubble,

What I've found with Dan working and reading this site with me, is we both made mistakes. He may have started it, but that isn't the point. I kept it going. OUR first and only interest now is working together so we can have a better relationship with each other. Excellent.

We do genuinely love each other, yet he realized and I realized we have hurt each other. This had to stop. Now we have a genuine commitment not to do this anymore. We have become much more aware of things we were doing to each other and it wasn't getting us one step closer to our goal to a "Happy old age" Him telling me I should be happy didn't make me fell happy. I turned this into something strange and then he'd do dishes or something to make me happier. The more Dan can come to recognize and accept his feelings, the less he'll have to rely on what he thinks he "has" to do to make you happy. He's getting there. This is a big one by the way for the angry person. HUGE.

Couldn't be done, Happiness comes from within us, I believe. Dan thought he was happy, too. Dishes done, house clean and sex whenever. Well, right now the sink is full of dirty dishes, the house is a mess, and we are closer and more caring about each other than we have been in 5 years.

Thus far this has been real hard emotionally on both of us. Yet compared to those 5 years these are a dream.

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Hi guys.

I think my H "Steve" has posted to David's section. He's obviously read some of my stuff and feels like I was being dishonest. I'm just glad that he's here though and starting some dialogue - send him your constructive, positive thoughts, okay?

thanks

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

I figured that was him. Hi Steve, welcome. We do want to hear your side. I'm glad you joined us.

Lynn    Yeah, welcome.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Dan,

Last night when you were posting and telling of the smoke alarm going off, you told me you thought of adding, "It's just Lynn cooking again, ha, ha, ha."

You didn't. I'm glad for that. I didn't think it was funny.

My response was wrong to you, too. I said, "then tell them that my thermometer hasn't been fixed!"

I should have said, I don't like it when you joke about my cooking like that.

Your response, please........

Love, Lynn   Humor is wonderful; in its time and place.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Lynn - AK here.

I my ex-boyfriend who lived a long distance away used to say: I must drive here because I like you; it's certainly not for your cooking! But I actually thought that was funny too, because I'm really not a good cook.

What buttons of *yours* is Dan pushing here? (said along with a hug)  AK

I have a feeling that once they solidify their relationship and Lynn feels a real partnership with Dan, joking around will be less of a problem. She's just a bit sore from what she perceives as put downs. 

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

Thanks, and hugs back. I was just reading what Steve and you wrote at Buddha.

My buttons, I don't' know? It felt yukky when he said it, I retaliated with one back and I want to nip this in the bud NOW. GOOD!

Maybe I do know. Dan thinks some things are jokes that I feel hurt me. When I'm singing he use to say, "What did you do with the money your mother gave you for singing lessons." I can't carry a tune in a bucket, yet that has never stopped me from singing.

That's why I addressed this to him. I think. I want this safely on Dr. Irene and not start a brawl. I think we've made too much progress.

Need to know what to say, and I have to come up with them quicker. Practice makes perfect.

Love the criticism and questions. thanks, If I didn't want to know I wouldn't have asked.  

I am glad you are here. You, too, Steve.

Thanks friend and hugs back, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Lynn

It sounds like what you are saying is that the cooking comment brings up a yukky pattern of other comments that have been said. This means it's not about the cooking one specifically, but about a general feeling of being disrespected.

Am I right?

Since you are both working on this stuff, you can not only think about your own response, but you can find out Dan's real intention behind the comment too.

Your response to him, Lynn was a defensive one.. right?  :)

AK   

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

By the way, the singing comment would bother me too.

I think everyone should sing.

And I think any kind of singing is beautiful when it's done out of joy.

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

Thanks, I just got out of the tub. Yea, I can cook, no I can't sing, but I came from a family where if you couldn't say something nice you shut up.

Yep, and then I said that if he would have fixed the thermostat the smoke alarm wouldn't be going off when I cooked. Two wrongs. I recognized that today and a lot in the past twelve years things lie this have happened.

I'm glad I didn't bring it up to him though, these go like, well, you know I like your cooking, it was only a joke.

No biggie. I just want us to get it out and over with.

Best thing about grandchildren, cats and dogs. With my magic wand they think I sing better than Bette and I know all the words. :)

I do wish you and Steve the best, truly. Isn't it great he jumped in?

Love and Prayers and Lots of Song, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear AK,

I think you are great! You have me thinking. Generally, things go like this. If I ask Dan for a couple of dollars and then reach for them, he pulls them back. He use to go to light my cigarette and then when I tried to inhale he'd pull the lighter back. I don't know if I thought of this as disrespect. I actually thought, "How teenage" and would reply something like up yours and then not accept the light or the money. Then he'd try and kid me out of it. My replies are not appropriate either. I want us to end this. The big one on disrespect was the cigarettes burning on the floor and furniture. As soon as I told him to burn the house down he quit. I just don't understand actions like these. It's a level of relating that is comfortable for an angry person. He meant well, but there is hostility in it. Now, he can work on doing otherwise. Yippeee!

I don't have the cure, but I can analyze it. It is hard to get a plain thank you out of Dan or members of his family. Even if I know they really like it. I just don't think they learned to be kind or gracious. We work on this lots between us.

Not funny answers, too. Did you get the check mailed gets answered no when in fact he did. Or some such. He has learned here "Lynn has no sense of humor so don't pull this stuff on me."

Ok, I better quit. I don't want to get mad at him again :)

Sunday Stream of Consciousness on Monday. Better than football, and I love football.

Still singing, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Lynn here, Rural living. I just went down and picked up our Patricia Evans book. I ordered #2.

Take care guys, Talk to you later, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

This may be a long one, don't know.....

Autobiography. First off I was adopted by parents who had been married for 17 years. They had no other living children. 2 boys died before my birth. I was very much wanted and "chosen" as when my sister arrived 3 /2 years later I was told they were stuck with her and had to keep her, I was chosen. In retrospect I think they may have gone a little overboard on this :)

I had a real happy childhood. I can remember lots of great times, lots of love and lots of caring from my grandmother (other 3 grandparents died before I was born), aunts, uncles and great aunts and uncles.

I've said before that my dad was a bully, but I don't recall any of this before 6th grade or age 12 and they don't coincide as I was in 7th and 8th grade at age 12, but something there changed things with my parents. (I have always thought of them as my parents. When I turned 50 I requested and got a copy of my original birth certificate, but never with the intention of finding these folks. I do genealogy and it seemed important at the time to get these papers in the event some future genealogist wanted to peruse this. I also think, "What if I look these people up and don't like them. Will I be stuck with them?" I don't feel the meeting with these people will/would have any influence on my life i.e.. Make it all better, so it is not important to me). I probably explained this in too great of detail, but only because I get people who suggest that I should want to know. I don't. I jokingly say that it would extend my Christmas present budget way out of whack.

So at about the 6th grade age 12 level I've mentioned what went on with my parents. My mother did "make" my father became a Catholic. I have to explain my mom a bit here. Later in life a Catholic Priest in our hometown was arrested and convicted for sodomizing young boys under his care. My mom was adamant that he couldn't have done that as he was a "Catholic." I didn't correct her and tell her what I knew of some people, not only Catholics. I thought it was really neat that she had such faith that she truly believed. She was your role model; taught you to close your eyes in denial for people you loved.

We never had anything that could even be construed as sexual in my up bringing. We were a family with /of women and this included a neighbor girl who was being raised by her father and grandmother. She spent a lot of time at our house.

Anyhow, after I was in my latter years of high school, my mother bought a business and was very successful. I still had a closeness with my dad. I can remember years of playing one game of Scrabble with him every night. He and my mom didn't seem to do a lot together then. This may be thinking from now.

Before I graduated High School I decided I wanted to join the Peace Corps. I mentioned that before. My mom said to me, "Honey, Daddy and I talked it over and we don't think you should. It's a really big step, etc., etc. I didn't, and instead eloped with my boyfriend the following month.

I do understand now the thinking of their little girl in Peru or somewhere. I finally got over it. In retrospect on this one though, I would have been a great Peace Corpsian. Yes!

Anyhow, I was a virgin, nice girls didn't, remember? Married the kid's dad and had 3 kids. (See, some good came out of it). Divorced him and with a bunch of other stuff in between, here I am.

What I think as an adult, I didn't think this then, is: if I were abused at all I was abused by the lack of any knowledge of anything bad in the world. I really thought that you grew up, stayed a virgin, married, had children, went to Church on Sunday's and lived happily ever after. It doesn't seem you were abused, but mom was a codependent who forgave transgressions - and dad was a bully. You loved your dad and married him so to speak, taking on a role like your mom. Mom taught you to live in denial and la la land.

About the 6th grade age 12 time I think my dad lost "control" and the got bullyish. I had to have seen this, but I didn't recognize it and I don't recall a lot of this aimed my direction. It was between he and my mom. When he really got bullyish with me was when my mom died. This was three months after my husband died. Your model for marriage was based on dad bullying mom. He was bullying her all along, promise. It didn't start when you were 12, just became more pronounced.

I've gone into what I have tried and done and I think he just needs to feel in control of some part of his life. Since I've met Dan and moved, I guess he does this to my sister.

Over simplified maybe, but that's enough for this chapter Trubble. Have at me, I'm ready..... Salmon First!

A bunch of Hugs, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Oh. oh, Lynn back,

Remember the puppy that died? Later my new puppy was hit by a car and got a broken leg. I was adamant on this one. I stood in the front seat looking over at my mom with the dog as dad drove us to the vet. I wasn't going to allow another swaperoo, I guess. The vet took the dog in, fixed the broken leg, then allowed me to go see her and then when I got her home I reinspected the cast, just to be sure. It was my dog. 

I also use to tell people my name and that I "was from New York." This at about age 3.  

I'm sure more will flow......Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Good evening everyone,

To Lynn, I'm not suggesting another word for abuse, just another for "victim." I guess I dislike it because it implies helplessness. I suppose that in a way it does fit, because none of us was looking for or expecting this treatment, despite the red flags most of us recognize were there with our wonderful 20/20 hindsight.

Just for the record, I hate "victim" and "abuser" too. Ugh!

I'm very tired, so won't say much this time. He and I had a couple of tense moments tonight, but he did back off and listen to me, and SEEMED to accept that I was NOT attacking him, just expressing my feelings, and talking about my preferences (yes, kitchen cabinets again!--what a mess to come home to after working all day). I need to thank him for doing that: getting his defensiveness under control.

About having him come here--my gut says no way! At least not now! I don't think he's ready. If he expressed an interest, I'd be scared to death, but I suppose I'd have to let him. But he knows nothing about the cat box, and I'm not telling him right now.

By the way, how can Dan be the only guy signed up for a couples list? Is he the only guy who posts? Are the others just lurking, maybe? Seems odd to me. I joined the God Help Us list, but it's not very active. I'm sort of disappointed. I did write once, and got several very supportive replies, for which I'm grateful, but there doesn't seem to be regular activity.

I'm going to check the message boards, then crawl into bed early. It's chilly and damp here today, and I think it seeped into my bones!

Love to all, and welcome Steve!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

I hear ya, there's nothing colder than cold bones. I'm glad you are Ok. After my last two posts Dan and I are sitting here talking. With LOCO curled up on his lap. All is well, and yes, Dan is the only one who posted there and I think is the only male signed up. Now he tends to do most of his posting here. It's always been hard to get the guys posting. I think women are more socialized to do this type of expressive stuff.

Good luck to you. Stay in charge, and yes Steve and AK, what have you got to loose? Welcome aboard. Just so he doesn't think he jumped aboard the Titanic!

Get a good rest. Did you see how I "blew it?" We have to keep it up until it becomes natural, right.

Love and Prayers, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000

S1

Hello All,

First off, I need to apologize to Lynn for my remark yesterday, I slipped back but that really isn't an excuse. I don't have any idea why I said that. Hey, you're gonna slip; new habits take time!

We could have easily gotten back into our old stuff of I said this, so you retaliated by saying that, and I'm glad that we never. Very Glad.

As Lynn just posted to Becky, we have been sitting here talking about animals, vets , my daughter, my emergency room experiences and her dog, her children and Drs' and hospitals and my mother, whom we talked about rationally, without rancor but with some puzzlement.

After we moved from our hometown, Lynn invited her over for Thanksgiving and she didn't even give an answer one way or another, she didn't show. The following Mothers Day, we were all at a brother and sister-in-laws house for dinner, she (Mother) acted very cold toward us, and as she was leaving, she told Lynn to tell me Thanks for the earrings, which we had given her, Lynn said 'Tell him yourself, he's right there." I was sitting on the couch, she went out in a bigger huff. We were just trying to remember why, no clue. Lynn made me move?! She then told the sister-in-law that if she ever invited us to another dinner, she would not sit at the table with us, she would go out to her trailer.

It was the following August that she claimed that Lynn was rude to her after bringing all the people over for Lynn to cook for. Lynn didn't have to cook for them, but did it because she wanted to.

I have to admit, that I did tease Lynn about a lot of things, thinking that they were funny, not realizing that they made her feel yucky. Right. This was a reasonable way of connecting with her from your point of view. I now know that she feels that way, and will not do them again. Practical jokes are only funny to the person that is doing them. 

I enjoyed reading her autobiography, it verifies that there are some parents out there who really do care for their children. Lots of them! Besides us. This includes the cat box family.

Speaking of children, I think that I told you that I went 360 degrees while raising my daughter than how I was raised, and even this is a form of abuse. Lynn and I have discussed this also, especially when she calls wanting and expecting something from us.

She was an only child so she got about everything that she wanted, we very seldom said no. If one of us, her mother or me, said no , she went to the other until she got her wish or way. Instead of uniting, we would just tell her not to do it again, but she would. This went on for about 8 years, until we wised up. When she had her first daughter, I was so glad to see her, thanks to Lynn as she told me to call her, that I never said anything about having to find out about the baby from a relative, or anything about the baby's' father. I feel that by giving in to her, even if I do it now, which doesn't happen like it did, is a form of abuse. She had to be institutionalized for awhile a few years back, and decided not to eat. I was informed of this by her doctor, and signed some papers giving them the right to feed her anyway they could. She resented this, as I was interfering in her life. Your kid is the only one who can get her life together. I hope she does.

Lynn, I don't know if I have told you but there are many events which have transpired in our time together, that I appreciate your helping me with.

We were also talking about my emergency room experiences, and one which we have talked about before is my appendectomy. My mother sent me to the hospital by myself in a cab. I was around 9 years old at the time. WHAT? 9 is a very significant year in my life, as that is really when I had to start acting like an adult more or less. I was scared, sick and hurting. When I woke up, after the surgery, the nurses would tell me what a brave little man I was, I was very proud of myself for being mature enough to go to the hospital alone. The pain was gone, and I was no longer sick. I know that it was an emergency, but I still don't know why she didn't have one of the neighbors watch my siblings and take me herself. She has never even offered a reason, other than she knew that I could do it myself. Because her agenda was to raise you to take care of her... One of the few times that she offered me any type of compliment.

Well enough for tonight, I would like to welcome Steve and thank you all for listening

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000

S1

Hi all.

I'm glad that Steve found this site.

I hope he will continue to "jump in" as Lynn says.

I asked him if he read just the Buddha section and he said no, he read the "whole damn thing" (said with a smile). He says he feels happy in a strange sort of way. (Gee maybe, if he starts posting, he will speak for himself, rather than through my well-meaning, but possibly inaccurate interpretations.... :)

He said that I talked about him way more than I talked about me, which is true. He thinks I made him out to be the "bad guy" which I probably did in many of my posts. Of course. That's normal.

He accepts that I needed to do this. Part of me keeps waiting for the "consequences", but this is just part of a pattern that I expect to happen, and things are changing including these patterns.

We had a little discussion about Dr. I's initial post re: Xmas, and traditions. We disagree about what her post really means to both of us as a couple.

My point is that I have a basic bottom line feeling that in my life I want to have family celebrations that include