Comments for Cat Box 3

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dear Trubble, Dr Irene and Cat Box Family, First off I would like to apologize to you Trubble for leaving you out on my post to AK. Meow...

I have been reading the posts and also taking in what Dr Irene and Trubble had to say, a lot of what she said to AK I can identify with.

She said something about remarks being taken internally and inducing feelings of insecurity. For instance, a remark such as my mother once made after my brother and I and our families spent three weeks putting a new roof on her house and garage, My roof is still leaking as though we didn't do it right". She then got a professional down who explained that the flashing against the chimney had worked loose, and that is where the water was getting in, and whoever did the roofing rebuild did a good job. She then told us what he said, but no apology about the remark and no Thank You for doing this for me. This raised feelings of doubt about my abilities and then of course guilt because I didn't do it right. If you are OK with yourself, even if you had messed it up, you would not feel guilty for messing it up. You would simply chalk it up to inexperience or whatever and let it go. 

We had put in a skylight here in our home, which would leak, Lynn became irate over the drip, this was before the leak that she posted about, I then got angry and went out in the rain to try to repair it. She didn't appreciate my actions, (and I don't blame her) I acted out from past experiences and feelings that I couldn't do anything right. Good Monday morning quarterbacking!

I agree Dr Irene, no one is a jerk, but they do act it.

I have sat down and wrote my mother a letter without mailing it, I felt better after writing it, but some of the anger which I have toward her is still there. It will be with you for a while. You are just at the beginning. Your job is to notice it and not act out on it. I maybe ahead of myself but I now think that some of the anger that I focus on Lynn is really anger at myself and anger at my mother. YES! That's why you're looking at your relationship with mom - so you don't lug it everywhere you to! Myself because I don't say anything, and anger at my mother for things such as I wrote about above.

I think that this is going to be a long post, so please bear with me.

I really don't know why I responded to Lynn's friend's death the way I did. I know that a lot of Nam Vets have ghosts which they have a hard time facing, I'm one. That is another saga in my life story, though. A coupe of years prior, our nephew committed suicide, and perhaps it was ribbons from that, I really don't know. He was only 18 at the time, also he was only 5 days older than my daughter. Ouchhh! Good thing you are looking at this stuff now.

I know that when people act like they don't like me, I have feelings of what's wrong with me and at times go out of my way to impress on them that I am a good guy. Reading your post Dr, Irene, I know that that is their problem, and I shouldn't take it in, but I do. Another of the codependency traits which I have to work on. Right. You take their problem and make it yours. You haven't yet figured out that what other people think doesn't matter.

I always wondered why Lynn felt that I didn't listen to her, because I have always been the sounding board for everyone in my family and come up with the remedy. This I guess I took on as the oldest of my father's children. I have two older half sisters, and two older half brothers. One of the older half sisters was given up for adoption, "why" is a question which will never be answered. The truth be known, though, everyone in the family believes that she was my fathers daughter, as she resembles me almost to a T. Lynn even says this, as did my first wife, and her sister. The oldest half sister was the one person, whom I respected for most of my life. She always seemed to be there when I needed her when I was younger, but as she has gotten older, she is getting to be more like our mother, while still complaining about her. (Mother) Ouchhh again.

I know now that there is a difference in hearing what Lynn said and what the family said. In my mind, I was interpreting that Lynn wanted me to FIX it Ps: Your interpretation is a real typical "guy thing." , as did my siblings, which isn't what she was saying. Lately though, there have been things which for Lynn, I need to fix. This isn't saying that I can, but I do have to if not fix, at least make them better for both of us.

My attitude about my mother is one of them, I have told Lynn, she is my mother I'm used to it, insinuating, if not saying, that she should get used to it too. Lynn, for this I am very sorry. I tried to force you to accept that which for you should be, is unacceptable. I grew up with this and never realized that my thinking was clouded. It was opposite of what I told Angry Girl, that is what difference does it make what people think or say about you, it's what you think of yourself that counts. I don't know if this is coming out as I am trying to put it, but if not I hope you get my drift. I was trying to make you take on what my mother was saying and/or doing. I could then be comfortable because you felt as I did. Oh Dan... Good, good stuff! Now you're getting it! Hope you know it's OK to have made all those boo boos.

I think that I'm going to close for now, I appreciate you all (listening) to me.

Trubble, I wonder, do you want fresh salmon, or would frozen do? Fresh please.

Dan

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dr Irene

Thanks for your comments.

I have a question about the "I don't like you" stuff.

I agree that it's my own thinking that allows this statement to hurt. The problem I have is when he says this, I want to be more distant from him and I feel less loving towards him. OK. Pull back. No problem. I start to lose hope for the relationship. Now you are putting words in his mouth.  I know that it's not even true that he doesn't like me. Is it possible to still love and support someone at a safe distance when he says he doesn't like or respect me (knowing that this isn't even true)? Is it possible for me to feel no hurt when someone says, "I don't like/respect you" unless I don't like or respect that person either? You have to realize you are independent of other people. You stand alone. You don't have to bounce off their feelings about you.

Dr. Irene I think you are getting at something important, but I haven't quite pinpointed it for myself yet.

Can you suggest some appropriate things I could say to him when he says this? I am working on removing the buttons he can push, by not making my state of emotional health dependent on the things he says to me, but as long as he keeps saying these hurtful things I need to stay a safe distance. Perhaps I am confused about what the word "abuse" really means. My intention is not to blame him for anything, but to make him aware that I won't hang around people who say non constructive things with the intention to hurt. Yes. Nothing gained by putting yourself in a negative space.

This is where the Patricia Evans books seem to miss something. It's easy for me to say "I won't tolerate that behavior from you" when I hear what I interpret as abuse. But how do I respond to "I don't like you"? Let them feel the way they feel; don't try to change their opinion. 

I can't help but feel when he does this that I don't like *him* very much either. And then the whole relationship just feels so yukky overall.

I think you are right that he probably feels hopeless and that nothing can help him. I have tried suggesting all sorts of things - books, videotapes etc. but I have a feeling that the "answers" for him are not going to come from me. I don't know how or if I can get through.

thanks AK

I like these books AK: When Words Hurt: How to Keep Criticism from Undermining Your Self-Esteem and Choose to be Happy: Your Step-by-Step Guide. from the cognitive perspective. I think these two books would compliment each other.

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dear Dr. Irene, Trubble, Dan, Angry Girl, AK, Becky, David and a couple in Working It Out, too.

I just got up and haven't read any posts yet. I went through yesterday with Dr. Irene and one key to this was where I ripped David's head off in Buddha. Dr. Irene asked "Where are you going with this, dear." I read, reread and I was going back about twenty some years to a story of two other people. I got so upset about this that I emailed Dr. Irene. These people had nothing to do with life now, nothing to do with David and his wife. I am so sorry David. This was something I wish I was able to have said to them way back when.

It had nothing to do with the here and now, but seriously affected my thinking on the here and now. Excellent! This is why awareness is so verrrryy important!

I mentioned about 200 posts ago that when we were in therapy, I had completed the Pia Melody "workbook" about codependence. Dan and I were both doing this. Remember, I'm in a snit because he's only on page 9? I probably had this done overnight. (I'm in a hurry :) Not at all. Working this stuff out is a process. One run through, or two, won't do it for most. 

Here is what I think is one of the keys. When I was 3 I was given a cute little black cocker spaniel. My parents took her to the vet to get her spayed. She died having this done. They immediately had the vet find me another one, brought her home. My first words were, "This is NOT my dog." The excuses started flying. Oh, yes it is, she grew, the operation might have changed her, etc. Moral of the story. IT WAS NOT MY DOG. They told me this later. They told me how upset they were and could not deal with telling me about the dogs death and so the switch. See how we train our children to lie or believe in lies?

Is this it Dr. Irene? Or at least part of? The answers are all in MY past. All of the answers for you are in your past. All of Dan's answers are in his past...

Now for Dan. I haven't read his posts yet. I am not sure I am ready. I am not sure we are ready without guidance. This might be a safe space to stay away from for the moment. Once we get over that hump though, then it might be time for Harville Hendrix. You do that book only when the power in  your relationship is in balance. Listening to you two here, I think it may be.

Thank you all. Will take to you soon, but meanwhile tell, talk and vent. Then reread. Then read Dr. Irene's comments. It helps. :)

Say Good Morning Trubble, Thanks and Love, Lynn  Salmon, Lynn. S A L M O N.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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*hugs to people and a nice scratch behind the ears for Trubble*

Sounds like we're all doing a lot of work on learning where our "stuff" is coming from, and how it still affects us. And sometimes it is in the most surprising of places.

One of mine is realizing that there were seriously dysfunctional things about my own family and childhood, despite that I had it *much* better than just about everyone else in my circle of friends. My parents aren't divorced, they didn't even separate until I was 17 and halfway through college. There were no serious substance abuse problems, no physical abuse, no infidelities, no major financial problems. Both of my parents came from bad family situations (Mom's was a mentally ill father who beat her mother, Dad's was an overtly alcoholic father and a "closet" alcoholic mother) where they were blatantly the "favorite" child. Neither one had any desire to repeat the patterns they grew up with, and both had me convinced that I had it really good because I wasn't afraid of being beaten, my parents weren't drunks, etc. (This was mostly Mom's input.) Ouchhh!

But there was still bad stuff aplenty. My father is a perfectionist, a workaholic, and prone to sudden outbursts of some pretty ugly verbal abuse. My mother tried to turn me into a confidante and best friend from about the time I was five years old (no, I'm not kidding, and some things are Too Much Information for a five year old!) and also tried (and STILL tries *sigh*) to live some of her dreams and/or her older sister's dreams through me. Good for you that you are aware of this stuff.

She also, as I've mentioned before, has this obsessive thing about drugs -- and sex. I was sexually assaulted at my high school by a senior when I was a freshman. This senior was someone I used to think of as a "big brother" sort of person. I felt guilty and confused and wrote a lot about it in my journal. My mother read my journal and called ME a slut for "letting" him touch me. (Yeah, an 18-year-old senior football player versus a 13-year-old freshman who probably weighed about half what he did, and was stunned and scared about the whole thing. Real clear consent there -- NOT!) Ugh.

The school counselor, when a friend of mine in 7th grade went to complain about a similar incident involving the same person said "Oh, he's just flirting, if you can't handle it that's your problem." My attacker also threatened to kill me if I ever told anyone. I foolishly went to the same school counselor after my mother read my diary, counselor didn't believe me, told my attacker what I'd said about him, and the attacker followed me around for weeks threatening me. (This, and my experience at college during the suicide aftermath, left me with a very deep distrust of mental health personnel -- BIG thanks to Dr. Irene for starting to undo that! And thanks to Trubble, too ... having kitties around always makes me feel better since I'm a total cat-person.)

To go with my "codependent pop culture" post earlier, I think that "dysfunctional high school" sums things up rather well in my case. The principal was well-known for making inappropriate off-color remarks to female students. The administration did a lovely job of ignoring several girls' complaints about the student sexual predator -- this guy seriously thought the junior high girls were his personal harem, and NOTHING was ever done about it. Yikes! I had several teachers who couldn't control the classroom much less teach their subjects. And this wasn't some urban jungle -- we lived in a small middle-class suburban town that was perfectly certain that "things like that don't happen here." Yes they do! :P

I was lucky enough to be able to get out of there and go to college early. But that has its downfalls too. Too many people saw me as the Great Brain, not as a person -- or alternatively expected the emotional maturity of someone several years older, since I was ahead of myself intellectually and looked older than my age. I've had waiters try to serve me wine when I was 11! I'd like to think that I have my stuff together a little more than many people my age, but now that I *am* in my 20s, the expectations on me to act like I was when I was 16 or so seem to have been a bit much.

Well, THIS post has meandered a bit... :) Welcome to Sunday afternoon stream-of-consciousness. Oh, such nice meandering...

-AngryGirl  

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dear Everyone.

Phew, I'm outta shape. Dan and I have been out stacking wood. Had to take a shrink break.

Read the posts. Dr. Irene, how about key word for when I see Dan with the axe.....ANNE BOELYN.... That is when I started with the sleeping pills. Couldn't sleep, wake up, take just one, sleep a few, get up take one more. Says it all, Hands tied behind my back and Dan about to chop off my head. And you felt like you couldn't deal; powerless; doomed... (Little did you know, huh?)

Dear AK, Gee, your rambling posts make perfect sense to me. I went and found David's before you posted about error and they all fell together.

Dear Angry Girl. Whew, I hear ya about the effects of suicide. This knocked me for a loop. Still has it's moments. So strange. First let me explain a little about this guy. He was the best friend I ever had. This was without the sexual involvement. That never worked, although we tried and tried, we couldn't get that part of our relationship straight. Wonderfully we came to the conclusion that it didn't matter. We were never meant to be. (If you believe in reincarnation, I think we will get back together to get it right).

He was always a part of my life. When my late husband died, the first phone call I got was when I arrived back home and it was him. All he said was, "Do you need me there?" Nope. He was there. He came into town shortly and spent a lot of time with me.

Before his death he called a friend and said get hold of Lynn, I need her. I was there at ten the next morning. He wanted to go to an alcoholic institution and had a lot of medical problems. Every time he tried to dry out he would have seizures.

I was happy to be there for him (I was with Dan at this time). I picked him up and brought him home. (His, not ours). About a month later he came to the house to return my suitcase (baggage all over the place) and had it full of stuff he wanted to make sure went to my kids, and my oldest grandson (warning sign I missed). He also talked to Dan about Viet Nam.

About a year later I was feeling suicidal. Can't/couldn't explain why, just not me. I tried to call him and left a message. Never heard back, as he shot himself. Ohhhh... Denial, shock, Oh, boy. And guilt. Go figure. Dan was quite a poop. As for ghosts, he was there all the time. I explained this to our therapist and she gave me a soft, "well, I don't believe, but from some of my other clients I cannot refute that they believe." Not for me. I'm too black and white, and I always felt that in the afterlife we would surely have something better to do than come back here. What I finally decided was it was me. I was keeping him around. I wasn't ready to let him go. 

What works best for me is dead people's coats. When someone I care for dies, I always ask for an old coat. In times of my need for them, I wear their old coat. I had one of his old jackets and that helped. Dan this week has helped, too. I did walk on eggs about this as I didn't want to hurt Dan. I forgot about me. Such is life. I was so worried that Dan would feel threatened by my grief, that I didn't pursue it. I held on for 5 years and it was a major issue. 

Maybe now I can let it go. I've got beautiful memories of what this lovely person meant to me, not to mention a ton of material things. More stuff than I've collected from my previous incarnations. Feels nice. Good. But, I have to wonder what issue your friend's death kicked open. I think this one started before him...

As for writing the letters to the parents. I do that, only I read mine, edit carefully and then mail them. This is only about current issues, tho. Makes me feel better.

Becky, I think I know the feeling of hopes and dreams and then the feeling of failure. I am a fixer (bleeder), too. I take this so far that when I was a senior in high school we were required to watch Mein Kampf. About the Holocaust. This affected me so much that a few years ago my kids wanted to take me to the Anne Frank exhibit and I couldn't go. Emphatic NO. I can feel all the hurt, bewilderment and pain of those people and can't let it go. I KNOW it isn't about me. I know the shame isn't mine. It doesn't make it any better. (I'm better off with wounded cats). Different strokes for different folks...

My wonderful mother (another of life's innocents, but she never saw much bad) always thought I should turn my emotions into creative writing. Might be a good way to deal with life stories. But I would have to do this for me, not so Dan understood me, right Trubble? SALMON!

I have spent 3 or 4 years trying to deal with Dan's painful past. If he only read this or if he only did that. I took on all his hurt. Oh, boy. I wanted him to read John Bradshaw when Pia Melody didn't work. I got so crazy that I had his Horoscope done for him one year for his birthday. Then I decided since I moved the bed to the other wall we started having problems. When the old position didn't work, I decided we needed a new bed. I still got nuttier. Mom was write - you certainly are creative! If you ever write anything, Trubble is sure he wants to read it! I got a metal Pyramid and have it on the headboard of the new bed going the right direction. Oh My, I Sound like a candidate for a Mel Brooks movie. I was just trying every way I knew how and some I didn't. Enough said. You get the picture. 8 X 10 glossy and it almost made me certifiably nuts. Until I wrote here and said SEE....... Here's where I am at........and then started working on me. He seems to be coming along with me this way, doesn't he Trubble (and LOCO). This is what they mean for One for the Gipper :)

Phew, again. Missed a bunch to you kitties, but I did read and I know where you are coming from. Love and prayers to you all, and try a kipper Trubble. Dan dear, I'm here. I didn't forget you, just some stuff that I want some help with before I go getting my palm read or something.......

Lynn

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Whoops, Didn't read all..... Sunday-stream-of consciousness.. Ain't that the truth. Spew, vent, hurt, cry then laugh. See, I said before, Love, Laughter and Tears. Take Care All. I love you a bunch..........Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Lynn here..... I just left the keyboard and headed for the kitchen ......SINGING.....!!!!!! La La La Salmon La...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dear Ones,

A little (quick I hope) story from my past. The only warning my mother gave me about men (when I was about 12 or 13).

"Never take an Orange and eat it if a boy gives it to you. It might have vodka in it and they will take advantage of you." 

I'm in my mid 50's now and NO ONE male or female has ever offered me a orange. Spiked or not!

I've waited all my life, because I knew that when I got the orange I was in big TRUBBLE. Meow!

Mama never told me that oranges were sometimes called something else.

Back to singing, "Inky Dinky Spider." That's what my magic wand is so good for....... It can make us all sing, get dirt out of play clothes (Dan's granddaughter had an asthma attack over this), and now it's going to go out to the kitchen and help me with the dishes.

Trubble, have a kipper, but don't take an orange....... Lynn Where's my salmon?

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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To-The-Sunday-Stream-of Consciousness-Group, High Ho! This is to Dan, Trubble and Loco,

Dr. Irene, I'm treading on thin ice here, but I'm jumping in with Dan and his m-o-t-h-e-r. Blue pencil please. I'm ready. OK!

When the skylight leaked, I did all I could to get this fixed. Dan's brother and Dan finally fixed it. Then above the wood stove leaked. Obviously I am not good at manipulation or I would have had it fixed before 3 1/2 years.

What I finally did was squat down lower than him, flutter my eyelashes, suggest he had quite a busy schedule and maybe he should get ________ to help him fix it. It was done by noon the next day! (Flutter, flutter, damsel in distress). Giggle!

Where I went wrong! In my birth family, things like this were fixed before they broke. Biggie with me. When I thought his mother snapped her fingers, I felt he jumped to spend 3 weeks doing hers "wrong." I even got so ridiculous as to get a towel and wash my hair under the leak (rain water is suppose to be good for the hair, eh Trubble? Thanx. I'll pass. ) Needless to say he was not amused.

Reality. Did it hurt me to flutter flutter to get this fixed? No. All I wanted was the leak fixed, it didn't matter how I accomplished this. Once it was fixed I was fine. Dan even is, with what I call my manipulation. He said, "Well you got your roof fixed, does it matter how you did it?" This wasn't even about his mother, I just drug her into it. His past and my past complicated the issue and we rolled. Yep.

How dumb in retrospect. Yeah! We both made mistakes. We both "blew it!" Now that it is over, I can't believe we went around with this for so long. See how it got fixed - once each of you stopped pointing fingers and looked inside?

Enough for me. This (his mother) is still a touchy subject with me and I'm going to tread lightly (See, I learned something from David). :)

This has been more than Dan has ever shared about his mother. Good for him, good for us. Are we heading in the right direction? Oh YES! This was never about me, right? His stuff was always about him; your stuff was always about you. 

Lunch time. Salami on French with Horseradish mustard. Coming to lunch Trubble? Finally! 

Love, Lynn

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and Cat Box Family,

I am not going to post as long a letter as previously, but I was sitting here thinking and thought that maybe if I put it down, I could see what was going on inside. Good thinking.

After I posted this morning, I went out and started to stack wood, I have always used physical activity of some kind to soothe the inner me. As opposed to sitting with it so you could figure it out I imagine...

I wrote a lot more about what I was feeling than I had originally planned. I have to say that after posting, I wasn't sure exactly what I was feeling, some relief , some anger, some indecisiveness. Sounds about right.

The relief was that I was able to start to face some of the controlling feelings of my mother, anger that I had to write it down to see what she has done, whether she meant to or not, and some indecisiveness as to did I want to get into that again as I have had a lot bottled up for many years. If you don't get into it and get through it, it will only get bigger in your bottle.

I am claustrophobic, although not as bad as I used to be, and I could never figure out why. Lynn and I were talking one day about my bother who is developmentally disabled, due to an accident not birth, and as we were discussing this I mentioned that I had been held responsible and punished for his accident. I was put into a closet, luckily a great aunt saw the accident, and very matter of factly told my mother what happened. I had completely hidden this until we were talking, funny what people will hide from themselves to excuse their parents actions and to feel safe. Wow... This is absolutely horrible. Mom had to find somebody to blame; what a mindset...

My mother is not a very safe subject between Lynn and I, because there have been times that I haven't wanted to believe that she would say or do things that evil about and to Lynn. Even when told of her actions or her stories. I now admit that I was wrong, misplaced loyalties, I don't know. Hey, she's your mom. You're allowed to say anything about her, but nobody else better... I know that consciously , Lynn is number one with me, subconsciously though I'm not sure. I want her to be. That is the 64,000 dollar question. You haven't really separated emotionally from your mom; you have poor boundaries from mom and from Lynn. 

Lynn says that I have been sleeping like a normal person, and I know that I am usually in a different position when I wake than when I went to sleep. I am even starting to remember some of my dreams. Keep a pad by the bed and start writing them down. This is excellent stuff! Your psyche is opening up. Dreams just tell you more about where you are.

When I returned from Nam I started to drink, pretty heavy, I would get off duty and head downtown or the EM Club and get drunk, stagger into bed, wake up drunk, report for duty, start to sober up by lunch, go up to my locker in the barracks, and drink a fifth that I kept there, get off duty and start all over again. I now wonder if it was Nam that I was running from or some personal matters which accumulated while I was there. (My mother didn't care for the girl, whom I got engaged to and would put her or her family down every chance that she got. Taking the money which I had sent home, and saying that she never received it.) I continued to drink very heavily for many years until I decided that enough was enough. I would black out during these drinking bouts, and I know that I have a problem with alcohol, but my problem there is controllable. My deeper problems which involve Lynn and I aren't. That is one of the reasons that I need to overcome these, for myself and for the two of us. For yourSelf. Everything else flows from that. You certainly had enough problems going into Nam. Top this with the horrors of war... You were probably suffering from PTSD hence the tremendous need to blot feelings out.

Here I go with a short post. What do you think Trubble?? Salmon. If this is a a short post? What's going to be in a long one? Trout.

I am feeling that this is helping me, mainly because I am able to see what is going on inside, I feel torn up and very low after posting about myself, and/or Lynn and my problems. I know that the wrung out feeling will eventually lessen, as I get more self awareness, and work on issues that I have brought into the relationship.

Lynn, Dr Irene & Trubble, I would like you to know that I am not as comfortable as I once was.

Dear Angry Girl,

I hope that you have found that not all counselors, teachers, etc. aren't as callous as those whom you had to deal with in high school and when your friend died. I know that there are some in the educational world. I feel like apologizing for the whole educational system, but I can't because then I would have to take responsibility for them and I have enough already, just dealing with myself. I'm sorry that you were hurt.

Extra hug and a big purrrr from LOCO

Dan

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

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Greetings to the Sunday Cat Box Crew!

Dan, thanks for your kind words. I certainly don't blame all teachers, just the ones who are clearly in it to control and/or feel superior to the kids rather than teach them. (This is why I will probably not end up teaching on the elementary or secondary level: I've got tons of patience for kids, but very little patience for nasty adults, be they complaining parents or bad administrators. At least at the college level, the complaining-parents factor seems less.)

Mental health professionals are a bit of a stickier issue for me. I would've gladly gone to a Dr. Freid (anyone else ever read I Never Promised You a Rose Garden?), but the ones I've had the misfortune of interacting with have been callous or unprofessional or both -- present company excepted, of course, Dr. Irene. :)

I think it's the difference between feeling like someone wants to fix me, and feeling like someone wants to strengthen me. Here, I feel like I'm being strengthened rather than that I'm defective and need to be fixed.

Another defining-childhood-moment story, the one that my mother gives as a big part of why she decided to homeschool me for four years (which was mostly a good thing): My second-grade teacher didn't know how to deal with me. I behaved for her and all, but we clashed. My first-grade teacher understood that I was way ahead of my classmates in everything but phys ed and handwriting (I learned to read when I was two, and I was doing math at the 4th grade level), and tried to strike a balance between letting me do my own (more advanced) work and letting me participate in activities with my peers. I received no such concessions from the second-grade teacher. What she said to my mother was "Don't you want your child to be NORMAL?" And my mom got this one right: "No, I don't. Normal is six hours of television a night."

I am not, and will never be, normal in THAT sense of the word. I firmly believe that this is something that doesn't need fixing. The counselors I have past experience with believed that this DID need fixing. For obvious reasons this made me want to run away screaming. Good quote from Rose Garden: "My difference is not my sickness."

And taking on other people's hurt to the point where it interferes with your own functioning is not good, Lynn. Sounds like you're realizing this and getting stronger. You can share, and sympathize (as my friends have been doing for me), but it can't take over your entire consciousness. Strange thing that happened to me: when things between me and my ex got completely smashed beyond repair, and he found someone else, one of my friends sent me an e-mail. Apparently, the purple unicorn (something of significance to us because of a fan-fiction project we were collaborating on) candle I gave him a year before had fallen off its shelf and the head broke off. Dave wrote "I don't think a headless unicorn is a good omen, what's going on?" That was kind of neat in a weird way. Like I said, we take care of our own.

No oranges? Darn. I like oranges. Guess I'll have to get my own, then. :)

-AngryGirl

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Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

S1

Lynn, Dan, AK, AngryGirl, Trubble, Dr. I and whoever else may be lurking around--

Thought I should add my two cents before Sunday is over! In my head, I realize what this is all about, but in my heart, I'm confused, angry and hurt. I'm very angry at myself for not seeing or minimizing the red flags that were waving right under my nose. We did, and do, have enough in common that I enjoyed his company and felt a connection. But I'm feeling now that the "nice, intelligent" guy was just an act. That in reality, he's a rigid, old fashioned chauvinistic (sp?) misogynist.

Looking back, I see evidence of his disrespect for women; his own sister mentioned it to me, the night before we were married. He had become extremely angry at me because I was disappointed that we weren't leaving on our honeymoon next day as planned.(I told her about that). He "had work to do." Okay, but I was upset that he'd waited until the evening before the wedding to tell me that, and I was very hurt that he couldn't understand my disappointment. According to him, I let him down, and from that moment on (he says) he KNEW he could never count on me! That was 10 years ago, and I still feel like crying when I think about it. He looked so enraged, I was crying, confused and hurt. What a sad picture of a couple about to be married! I remember a very clear and distinct thought coming to mind as he was chastising me for being disappointed: Becky, if you marry this man, you will regret it for the rest of your life.

But of course we smoothed things over, and I told myself that nothing like that would happen again. And of course it did. I believe I mentioned his anger at me the first night of our trip, his accusations of not supporting him.

For all the hurt he's caused me, I don't want to hurt him, and I find that remarkable (but typical of victims, I've learned). I know that I've said some hurtful things when frustration and anger overwhelm me. But I always feel remorse, and I always think about why I said them and what I need to do better next time. Still, in terms of viciousness, I haven't come close to the things he's said to me. And I've never told him about that "little" voice I heard the night before our wedding, although I've wanted to hit him with it many times! (He, on the other hand, has often said that marrying me was a mistake, and the worst thing he's done).

I want to hold on to my integrity, and it's very hard sometimes! Dr. Irene mentioned that he compromises his, and you are so right! But this seems to run in his family--his sister and family recently got a free motel room by saying that an elderly relative they were here to see was in a nursing home. She wasn't of course. Similar things have happened. Interestingly enough, my H told me that he didn't approve of their doing that.

He is the type to expect that everyone else should go by the book, follow the rules, and if they have a tough go of it, so much the better--they are just paying their dues. He is awfully critical. I used to hate sitting next to him during my younger son's ballgames, and older son's band concerts, because he'd pick them apart. While we were dating, I almost broke up with him because his complaining started spoiling our dates: the food was bad, the waiter was lousy, the theatre was cold (or hot), the place was too crowded, the lettuce wasn't cut right. He once found fault with the waitress because she kept our water glasses full (She just wants a good tip). Isn't it sad to be so cynical and suspicious?

Well, I'm not asking for an analysis of my husband. (If I were, I'd get into the stockpiling of medical supplies, cleaning supplies, medicines, dried foods, etc. much of which is now 10-15 years old! Since we married, he doesn't do that so much, but he still, in my opinion, sometimes goes overboard in his "buying ahead").

I guess it's a relief to find an outlet. Other than my therapist, no one else knows a lot about what life's been like. I've shared some with my parents and sisters, and have found out that other close family members know some of what's been going on. I'm a little embarrassed, but relieved, too, because I need the support and understanding!

I keep having to get this all out on the table and look at it. I'm discovering that things I thought I'd made peace with, I haven't--apparently I just put them away because I didn't know what to do with them. For some reason I'm at a place now where I have to get them out, and decide what to do with them, once and for all! It's kinda like the junk drawer in the kitchen. You can throw bits and pieces of stuff in it for only so long, before it's such a mess you have to clean it out!

Early day tomorrow, my "Marion the Librarian" day! I have 5th graders coming in! Then on Tuesday, I deal with the college crowd! Its becoming quite interesting to have students ranging in age from 9 to 50-ish! And it's quite interesting to work two jobs, and still not make enough to support yourself! UGH!

G'night!

Becky

PS Trubble, your cousin next door was yowling half the night. What's his problem? Dan stole his Tuna - cuz he wanted it for himself!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

S1

To the Sunday-School-of- Consciousness-Cats-Who-Don't-Take -Oranges-From-Strangers-On-Top-of -the-Volcano.

Thank goodness tomorrow is Monday. Lynn here. I loved what you said Angry, about different. It is like my night owl tendencies. There is nothing wrong with me. In fact Dan says I start to wake up when the neon lights come on. This doesn't make me bad. I can't believe the people who have tried to change me on this. Like they are so ticked off that they have to get up and face the day at 6 AM they think I should, too. In fact this has been a helpful quality to a number of friends who can't sleep, need to go to the emergency room, or need someone to sit up with a sick friend. Then I get..... Gee, would you mind. No, never as long as its past noon. Another unusual... I seldom wear a winter coat. I just don't feel cold. Sooooooo.... When people ask why I don't have on a coat, it's cold out, I tend to say, gee, I'm over 50. Don't you think if I thought I was cold I would put on a heavier coat? Any how, no biggie....Now a comment from Dan: Running joke, when you can see your breath in the house, then I can turn the heat up from 50 to 55 or start a fire.

That's his story, tee, hee. Actually, a few years back with the heat shortages and we were all asked to turn our heat down to 65 degrees, the joke in this house was, "Yea, Mom would have to turn ours up 10 degrees to get it at 65 :)."

Anyhow I learned years ago that different isn't bad. Sounds like our kind of house!

As for David. That was so strange, because I drug up a story not even related to me and took it out on him. Oh well. I'm not going to beat myself up for the rest of my life just because I took something from the Twilight Zone out on him. This may have been his test, too. This wasn't about him at all and he shouldn't (if he did) have let it bother him.

Ah ha, way up in Posts 2 about H reading posts on the sly and maybe answering some. This was here to promote Dr. Irene's books! ^_^ See if you can steer him this "Cat Box" direction. (This is how I got Dan's attention). I can't remember if this was AK or Becky. Could even have been Angry, but who cares? It's something that he is "sneaking" in here. Maybe he's being open minded, but hasn't decided yet.

I love oranges, too. Just remember to buy your own. These men, they think of anything and everything, don't they? I never thought of spiking oranges, How about you Trubble? Did anybody ever spike your Mixed Grill and take advantage of you? Of course not! You are too smart for that.

Say Goodnight Trubble OK. Say Goodnight Trubble.

Goodnight Guys, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

S1

Dear Becky.

Doo, doo, doo, doo. (Theme form the Twilight Zone). Here we go again, I just went to see if my post took (AK, if not then I can hit "back" and repost, as letter is still here). I didn't mean to leave you out of this so we will go back and read what's going on with you tonight.

Love, Dan & Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000

S1

Dear Becky aka Marion the Librarian,

One of my all time favs. Lida Rose and Shirley Jones all wrapped into one. 76 Trombones, too.... Oh, I even read Rose Garden years ago,

We have a junk drawer, too. Tooooo funny. One thing that worked for me/us with Dan....He's a collector, too. If it sits around longer than 9 months it has to GO! I figure if I can concieve and give birth in the time it takes him to get something running, it's bye-bye. Not good, maybe, but it works for us.

As for H and illegal gimmees. Dan and I were sitting here reading and looked each other square in the eye and laughed. His mother. No threat (thanks, Trubble), just fact. Not so funny, but alas true. Dan has an acid test to tell if his mother is lying......He looks to see if her lips are moving......Oh Boy, Dr. Irene, this without a fight?

I dislike his "You let me down" answers. They leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean even? This even feels yukky to me.

It does help getting it all out, doesn't it? The only (Well almost) secret I don't have posted here is my Social Security Number. I finally decided that whomever knows it's me must be having at least as many problems as I as or they wouldn't be here either. ^_^

Becky Darling, Kitty was yeowlling "Becky, let me in please." That's cat talk for I've found a new home, now open the door! Becky: she's covering up for Dan...

Take care. Dan is in the shower now, but he read your post. Keep on it. It helps (I Think) even if we are the only ones listening to you. And count the collective CATS here. Trubble, LOCO, my 6 and the rest. Quite a batch of kitties that care for all of us. This has to include our dog named Kittie.

Join us on the volcano, and remember not to take oranges from strangers.

Love, Prayers and Goodnight, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

I just love you guys!

These posts are so rich. So full of truth, emotion, and great humor. I learn then I laugh. It's wonderful. Lynn, I loved the part about the metal pyramid :)Reminds me of a friend who was drinking out of only clear red drinking glasses because of something she had read in an astrology book - maybe it was supposed to be enhanced energy? I forget. But I know that feeling when you're ready to try just about anything.

I used to be very intrigued by psychics (and still am) but I think if you take them too seriously, there is a danger that you are putting your life into someone else's hands if you allow what they say to influence your decisions. I've since decided that I'm the person that can best predict my own future. I occasionally play with tarot cards and what I find is that what rings true for me in my tarot layout are those things which I know to be true inside me already. Certifiably nuts, you say? Yes I'll join you in your 8x10 glossy picture. Nutty people are certainly interesting, at least. (And Lynn, I love your singing voice, and I'll be careful from now on about the orange thing)

Dan and Lynn - I am so impressed with your continued deep introspective. It's quite a puzzle seeing how all the past elements fit together to form the present situations isn't it?

And the suicide stuff; very distressing. I can't offer much in the way of personal experience there, but I recently finished reading a book called "Signals" which was really interesting. It's about a gay man who's friend committed suicide and the string of signals and premonitions that came to him after the death. It's a very short book, a very sad book as well, as almost all of this man's friends died of AIDS, but very hopeful about life after death. Life after death is a topic I find extremely interesting. I do believe that it's possible for loved ones to contact us after their passing. "We Don't Die" and "Saved by the Light" are another 2 very interesting books on this topic.

Dan - I understand your low feelings after posting. Each time I reveal something deeply personal about myself or my situation I feel a bit vulnerable, although it's getting better as I continue to post. It must be the same stuff Dr. Irene was posting about where somehow we make what the world thinks of us more important than what we ourselves think. It would be hard for me right now to publicly face a group (in an appropriate therapeutic situation) and talk as openly as I have here. I think it's because I know that people will judge me and I guess I make their judgments of me too important. There's also a self-protective element of not wanting to subject myself to non-constructive criticism because I know that I *do* sometimes let others' judgments affect me adversely, and I am still learning how to keep myself feeling safe inside. Having said that, I still think it's fair to be selective about when and where it is appropriate to reveal these vulnerable parts of ourselves. Talking about this stuff - and having other people hear also helps. Support groups like CODA, AA, EA and the like are wonderful for de-shaming those yukky feelings.

One thing I have changed in my behavior is that when people are cold and hostile to me, I stop trying to be excessively nice and accommodating which was my old pattern. When I reflect back their "coolness", these types of people almost always start to warm up a bit. Yes. This is something I noticed with various people in my field of work. I haven't really examined why, I'll have to think about this.

Also, don't know if you read my post to David, but on this site I sift out the advice that "feels right" to me, and what doesn't feel right, I mentally put aside. But I have found that overall most posts are helpful and that the many viewpoints represented here with the diversity of age groups, personality types, and life experiences are quite insightful. And that everybody doesn't have to agree with me for my opinions to be valid (not *right*, but valid - I don't even think there is such a thing as *right* anymore).

AngryGirl - I haven't addressed you personally much, but I find you to be very thoughtful and insightful. I think that a lot of us "tortured souls" are those who do think about a lot about our lives. Not everyone finds the tools they need to make positive changes. It seems like you are heading in a good direction.

I think that unfortunately, many people's fears about counseling (including my partner's) are somewhat justified by bad experiences like the ones you have run into. I agree with the strengthen vs fix philosophy that you spoke of.

***

So, it was a nice day for me. My partner (I think for the first time ever) took his kids and me to participate in an activity for the kids that *I* suggested. He didn't sulk about it at all and was very pleasant the whole day. He was definitely Dr. Jeckyl today. And the kids had great fun too.

I still feel residue (inside) from the earlier hurtful stuff that was said, tempered with the fact that I know he didn't mean most of it, along with his apology and explanation. I realize these big life changes can happen in small steps, but I don't want to get too close to him again too fast. I wish there were more things I could do to speed up or just help his healing process in some way (without taking on his pain). Any suggestions? Disengage emotionally; be cool, just like the strategy you noticed working with others.. (its about disengagement rather than strategy)

I really wish he was at a point where he was comfortable participating in a forum like this one. However, I know he would find a lot of what I've expressed here very hurtful so it's a tricky balance. If things progress between us it will most likely happen in stages.

My thoughts are just to continue the friendship as it exists right now and remain very clear about what I want and expect from a permanent relationship. I don't think he really knows yet what he wants, as he said in his email, things are pretty blurry for him and he feels disoriented.

I think I will continue with my email correspondence to him, maybe thanking him for his compromises this weekend, and maybe telling him that things are not hopeless between us but that they need an immense amount of work and that the work will not happen overnight. I need to think about my own level of dedication and time limits to working on this relationship as well. I don't want to put undue pressure on him, but for my own sake, there will be a time limit if there's little progress. I'm just thinking aloud here - it helps.

thanks gang - good thoughts to everyone.. catnip to Trubble (the cats all come to my garden and ravage it - there's nothing left of it now except root. But I do have my own homemade catnip mice which I make with fake fur and long shoelaces for tails - Trubble I'm sure you'd love one, every cat I've met does) Trout with a side of catnip...

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

I have a problem with jealousy. Sometimes when my new husband and I go to the bar, these women that are supposed to be our friends come up and can't talk to him without touching him. I have a problem watching women have their hands on my husband. It usually creates a problem between us afterwards. We have both been married before, and I was never jealous then. Its just with my new husband that I have a real problem. My husband says they are only friends, and they are harmless, and that I have no sense of humor if I can't understand this. What should I do or try? Not enough info.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Person who posted about Jealousy:

Here is something I saved from an internet site somewhere (sorry I can't remember where, so I can't give credit where it's due).

It outlines some different reasons for jealousy.

Self-Esteem

1.People with low self-esteem are more likely to perceive an existing relationship as vulnerable to outside threat.

2.Relationship Specific Self-Esteem refers to how confident you are about your relationship.

Dependency

1.People who depend on a relationship to make them happy are more susceptible to jealousy.

2.People who are dependent on the relationship are more likely to be possessive. This possessiveness may, in turn, lead to jealousy.

I must run. Hope this offers a little insight.

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

Lynn here, I just read your thoughtful post. I'm so glad you had a good day yesterday. Maybe he's subconsciously noticing changes in you? I know what you mean about therapy. I use to drink a lot, too, and went to a few AA meetings. Lordy, This turned out to be a place where recovering guy drunks hustled the girls. I didn't like the take advantage going on, "if you have any problems at any time, day or night, I'd be happy to come over for coffee and we can talk about this." So I drove to a nearby town and really liked the guys, I was the only woman, but we got together twice a week to play Pinochle. Pretty funny, as we did talk while we played and it was preferable. I just quit on my own and now don't often overindulge. (I wouldn't go to any meetings here too small of a town).

I think I said some hurtful things here about Dan, too. Once I plunged in I wanted him to know what hurt me. Not that I hadn't told him. I did. He can read what I'm saying and it's once removed from my tone of voice. I think that helps. Yes. You're less likely to appear angry on paper.

Thanks about the book recomends. I got the one about the Light. I truly think I kept bringing him back in my memory so strong it felt like he was here. I had a stepson who died of AIDS (late husbands son). He was the greatest man. He and I were close. He was great for me when his dad died. He didn't come in and get crazy as the rest of us were. He was on a retreat and called me a couple of times a day. He was there for me. I have lovely memories of him. (He's the one who gave me his theories on reincarnation).

About the people that are cold toward you. My mom (of the oranges :) taught us and this is so true in public, that there is something to like in everyone. It has to be sincere, though. If you see someone in that cool mood find something about them you truly like. Even "I love your earrings." (Only if you really do!). Watch the change. Yes!

I think I told you I use to be a bartender. I could never figure why the guys would come and tell us their tales of woe and not the wife. One guy had been dating an older woman and was really in love with her. He's sitting in the bar getting gooned telling ME all that he loved about her. I walked over to my tip jar and got him a dime. So funny, like he didn't believe he could call her and tell HER! He did, they married about 25 years ago and I'd like to add lived happily ever after, but that I don't know. Lost touch.

What is it about our personal relationships that gets us so messed up? I do know that my upbringing didn't help me with Dan's mother. My mother raise us to respect these people only because they were our mates parents and NEVER to air our dirty linen in pubic. Dan's mom attached to me like a leech at a funeral. Dan came in to the luncheon and there I am sitting laughing and smiling and having lunch with his mother. He got mad at me! There is nothing in me that could have or would have been able to tell her to get lost in front of 100 people. As soon as I could I excused myself and went out for a cigarette. That is one of my big one's with her. I've never had the opportunity to tell her anything alone. Funny tho.....Dan moved here first and looked for a place and left me. She and I became "girl friendish" shared a few confidences. As I've said, when I back off (translation: detach), I can pity her. Our serious problems with/about her started when "I MADE Danny move away." Now that I'm chillin' (see Trubble :) ) I can see that this is her stuff and not mine. Dan even bought into this and couldn't remember when he promised his mother he'd never leave her. Probably never. She has us confused with her life. And he has her confused with his life and with you. There are lots of indications of this.

I'm like Dan, I just wanted to tell you Good Morning and this is flowing from my keyboard, so I think I'll let it flow........

Nothing in my upbringing prepared me for her. Lying, cheating, hurtful things. As you can see.... I can yak. I have never before in my life been as speechless as this woman can render me. I can feel my breath suck in, my jaw drop and my eyes open wide, and I can't say a word. Amazing. There is a reason, right Doc? Yep.

About the kids. My late husband and I got that right. He raised my 3 teenagers. I should say we raised them. It was we first. He grounded "our" 18 year old daughter over high school graduation time. I never interfered. I personally thought he was a "little harsh" and she came to me. I told her that is was between her and him. She went and talked to him and got ungrounded. He used to say to me that she would be grounded until she turned 21 or got married. Then when he died she was crying, "He was the only person who loved me enough to ground me." They were so funny at the family dinner after his death. The son who later died of aids (the eldest) and my daughter (the youngest) were arguing over who got the urn after they scattered dad. I was his favorite vs. I am the eldest. They had the rest of us laughing till we cried. The united parents does work. Dan's daughter doesn't like this and use to call Dan and say, "Mom said." Dan would buy into this and say, "tell your mother." I jumped in and said enough, if you have anything to tell your ex, tell her yourself. He would and come to find out this/these weren't so.

That's all the therapy I can take for today. Take care all. Love to the bunch and lots of prayers. We need them, and keep spewing. I think it helps. (Oh, PS. way up there I said I could get CDS over Dr. Irene's site. That was suppose to be OCD) Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Dear Jealousy,

Welcome. Just a little from Lynn here. I am a kissy huggy person and always have been. I've never met a stranger in my life, and at the second meeting am comfortable with hugs and a kiss on the cheek. I do this with both men and women I my life.

Dan "was" aloof and almost never hugged or touched anyone. He has become comfortable with touch and hugs. (I don't know how), but I love it when he walks into a bar and one of our female acquaintances gives him a hug hello. I think it's good for him, and I think the good is in what it does for her.

We don't have a lot of jealousy problems, tho, but I do know when he's hugging another woman, it's not about his feelings for me. He's just become more touchy in his life, and that I like. 

Take care, and I'm sure Trubble has some words of wisdom for you. Glad you jumped in. Work on this before you go on for years like we all did here.

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

This is Lynn. Something about your in-law-family rang a bell here. Dan's mother (we think) has been into insurance fraud lately. We are appalled and know there is nothing we can do about it. She has been told this is risky by other family members (she denies it). She has been buying things, saving the box and claiming it was stolen or reporting something stolen that she gave to someone. It is interesting that your H doesn't like this, as we are all appalled and the younger ones find it hard to believe. They try and teach values to their children and then mom does this. They just tell their kids that it is not right and yet how do kids learn? Crazy. The 2 instances where she tried something similar on us (yes, US), we wrote her a letter telling her we'd blow the whistle if she continued using our name. One of these was when she cornered me at the funeral and blamed Dan's ex wife for the wrong doing. Too funny as they were divorced about 12 years when this came up and unless ex used my magic there was no way she was using our address and names here and now. Anyhow Dan got a letter mailed to him at his mothers address which she foolishly sent here unopened. Dan had never lived at that address. Ah, well. Taken care of from our point of view. This could be a whole new chapter, but if I get asked by anyone in authority, I will not lie for her. I'm also not going to report her, either. (Who'd believe me?) Giggle.

As for stockpiling. My late husband was like that. He was a youngster during the depression and always felt bad times were acomin' again. Dan's mother does this, too. I think this is a fear of going without again.....Maybe H has a fear of that? Trubble, how many cans of cat food do you have in your pantry? Oh, catnip! My two large shrubs are just a couple of leaves these days.

Take care and have a good Monday, With Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Lynn

I loved what you said about being a united front with step kids.

I also tell the kids that when they have a problem with something their dad does, that they need to talk to him about it.

But I have also found that it's important to be able to discuss with him how I feel about it, and make occasional decisions, without him getting defensive. He was excellent about this on the weekend.   I was able to offer my input and suggestions and we did compromise several times. It wasn't a power struggle. It was healthy discussion; at least that's how I felt about it. I know that when there is *no discussion* on these kind of things, I feel strongly that I would just rather not be part of that kind of family structure. I don't have children of my own, so this could be part of the dynamic.  I like the Stephen Covey tapes about the habits of highly effective families.

I agree about saying something nice to someone in a cool mood. This is different than trying to accommodate them. Expressing interest in someone, complimenting them, thanking them etc does seem to help, when it's sincere. When people are being miserable though, I have learned to steer clear rather than try to please them.

Lynn - what does CDS and OCD stand for?

talk to you soon.

AK 

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

OK, *this* is amusing.

My ex just called. This is good, nice to know he genuinely is interested in friendship. That, and we still have stuff to get back from each other.

He's still with the other woman, and he asked if I'd found someone new yet. I said no. He said that he was sorry. I said that there are some nice things about being single. I don't think he understands that. *chuckles*

I've had a couple offers, but they know that I don't really feel ready to be in a relationship with anyone just yet. There's one that may be the first to know when I *do* feel ready (if he is still single at that point -- ironically it's the guy who introduced me to my ex), but for now he's content with going out and doing stuff as friends or in a group of our friends, and chatting with me on the phone or online, and giving me hugs and being a shoulder to cry on in the moments when I'm NOT dealing so well.

We talked about this a lot, and acknowledged that we've always been somewhat attracted to each other (we dated briefly in college), but were too involved with other people and/or not grown up enough for something serious, depending on just when you're talking about. And if we do end up getting together, we want to do it RIGHT. And I *know* I can't give that right now. I told him not to wait for me, but who knows? It's a possibility, one that I find rather interesting, but like I said if I'm going to be with this person I want to do it right, and now is not the time.

I also want to make sure it would be for the right reasons. There is the residual "this would really annoy my ex" in the back of my mind (that's another story, suffice it to say there was a big old jealousy issue there), and there's the ordinary rebounding stuff, and neither one belongs in a good stable relationship.

But there's the whole "WOW! I can COMMUNICATE! And my wishes are respected, and I don't have to shout to be heard!" thing that's making me smile. A lot. If nothing else, I have another true friend. Yay!

-AngryGirl

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Hi guys, Lynn here,

OCD is obsessive compulsive disorder. CDS ????? typo as opposed to those little disks we have to replace our old 45 RPM records. One thing I can guarantee you. Dan has never been bored with me :) Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Good Monday!

I seriously doubt that my husband has been to this site. He doesn't have internet at his office, and the few times I've seen him using it here at home was when he was looking up business related stuff. Of course, he's home when I'm not, but again, I'd be shocked if he ever came here. As for the books remark, I think he mistook Dr. Irene for Patricia Evans. 

The stocking up--. We live in his childhood home. When we married, and I moved in, I had to clean out a lot of his mom's stuff. She was still alive but in a nursing home. The stuff that woman saved! Both parents came from deprived backgrounds, and although his dad did very well in the business, I get the feeling they couldn't shake off the "old days." And not only was every little bit saved, it was all neatly packaged and labeled, too! A paradox: my husband's "areas" around the house, and his office/business building are a mess! Stuff piled all over, falling on the floor. He can barely squeeze into his work truck for all the junk. Yet if I or my boys "misplace" anything, look out! If something's missing, it must be because I lost it! Uh-huh! I think these folks are more into controlling others than controlling themselves!

I think the something for nothing comes from the I'm-going-to-screw-you-before-you-screw-me school of thought. It also fits in with the sense of entitlement controllers seem to have, and their aversion to boundaries. If I am firm about something, he really gets his hackles up! I learned early in my marriage that the quickest way to NOT get something done was to ask him to do it, and then EXPECT it to be done! He would refuse, just on principle. But he doesn't have a problem.

Someone mentioned psychics. he was into that before we met, has lots of books. When I pair that with certain ways that he sees the world, I feel that the interest wasn't necessarily healthy. It was just another way to try to assure that he'd be in control, one-up on others because he had "inside information." Also, it hurts that he'll trust some self-proclaimed psychic in a booth at a psychic fair, yet blow off a therapist or relationship counselor as "thinking they have all the answers." (Translation: I don't have to pay attention to what they say, because they think they're better than I am. And Becky, since you listen to them, YOU think you're better than I am, too!).

Want to end with a happy moment in my day. I worked in the library today; quiet day, just 5th graders checking out books, and being "shushed" by me for 45 min. But I had some cute visitors. The 4 year olds from the preschool visited the "big building" today in search of the gingerbread man. They went to several rooms, in each they found a note directing them to another room. They ended up in the library. They were so darling, with their big eyes looking up at me, asking "Have you seen the gingerbread man?" I made a production of it, telling them that as I was coming down the hall, I thought I'd seen someone running out the door. Why, look here! There's a note on my desk! I read it to them--the gingerbread man had run back to the preschool so he could finish baking! Oh, they were so excited! The teacher had clued me in--she had made a large cookie (the gingerbread man) then smaller ones for them to eat after they'd found him. I was glad of that! One little guy declared loud and clear that they WOULD NOT eat the gingerbread man! Talk about a traumatic experience: they chase him all over the school, then EAT him! None of them would be able to sleep!

They were so sweet and innocent, and I've been quite nostalgic for the days when my own boys were that age. I remember my youngest, only a couple years older, sitting by a tulip and stroking it, then looking at me and saying, "What a sweet flower." Oh, for that innocence again!

Well, I will go wallow in my empty nest! (One has flown, the other will within a year or two).

By the way, if this conversation keeps up, we will have to plan a reunion in a year! How about Vegas, on Dr. Irene? Gee thanx...

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Dear Jealousy

I don't know if this will help or not, but I'll try to give you an insight.

I used to be a very jealous person and then I started to think, this beautiful woman is with me, and she does like to talk, she has never met a stranger, and believe me there have been a lot better looking guys than I who have approached her, but she chose to be with me so I always consider myself lucky. Our better halves do seem to know what is going on, and if your husband has never seriously ignored you to talk with your friends, then he knows/feels that you are the best looking one in the place. You have to keep telling yourself this, and I know that it's hard, but believe me it works. Eventually you will no longer have to say this, because it becomes an ingrained fact.

The reasons for jealously that AK gave you are probably true psychologically, but it will only take yourself telling yourself this fact for you to believe it. It won't happen overnight, the same with any therapy.

Dear Dr Irene, and Trubble I have probably filled three or four steno pads with my two earlier posts, but I have felt better afterwards, though a bit tired and wrung out. The true test of your remarks to our posts has been, Lynn and I can actually say something about my mother, among other things without me getting defensive. Yippeee! And Trubble, your input has been very helpful also. The cats now seem to think that beef is the meal of no choice, they want the seafood flavors. This includes Loco, who would eat anything and everything at one time. Well, that's before I educated them.

Dear AK

Congrats on a nice day with you H, and the kids. I'm glad that so far things seem to be going your way. From what you have posted, I feel that he still has a long way to go, and as far as the kids, I think that if you don't get into the Dad said no so we'll ask AK and talk it over with him, letting the kids know that this is what you intend to do, will help you instill some values into their way of thinking. Lynn and I tried to instill this into my granddaughters when they were with us for a summer. Letting them know that things that we disliked was taboo, but still allowing them to have fun. My daughter did not like the girls to get dirty, we did. Lynn even had one of them doing angels in the mud she started to have an asthma attack because she thought that she was in trouble, but Lynn showed her the amazing capabilities of a washer with mud. Once again, congrats, and I wish you all the best.

Dear Angry Girl, you are so right about rebound, and if your ex is so engrossed that he is sorry for you, I think that you were smart leaving and if the new guy and you get serious, Hurray. Many waters make the ocean so test as many as you feel comfortable with before jumping in.

Dear Becky

Hope this Monday went according to your plans. Try to keep a outlook, that one day at a time is the ultimate opportunity for your Self.

Hope I didn't miss anyone, if so I apologize.

Hugs to all

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Dear Dan.

Trubble, have Dan define "good looking guy" for us please. I once told him the only threat to our relationship would be Willie Nelson singing Crazy to me......and look what happened when Willie sang Crazy to me! Willie went on the Road Again and I'm still here :) PS...Dan, It wasn't the magic of the washer. It was the magic of the wand. Oh, and if I haven't told you... Willie wrote Crazy!

Love, Lynn  Dan, please define "good looking guy" for us.   (gray and black-brown stripes no doubt.)

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000

S1

Hi Becky, hello to the rest of the group, Trubble and LOCO, too,

I loved the reunion bit. Only how about Tahoe at Christmas. We went through a few years of not so nice Christmas' and I loved the Kenny and Dolly tape about A Christmas to Remember. I have to have snow with my Christmas. After a few years of hearing that, we've had nice Christmases. A big one (past tense) was Dan's inability to say Thank-You. Boy did we have a few go rounds on that one. I sat back and analyzed that one though and we worked it out nicely. He seemed to always slam or criticize anything I gave him and then say, "Oh, thanks" Then he'd get a few up-your-noses from me and we were off and running. He almost didn't get it. He'd say well, I really like it. Did you ever hear of thank you? Once he started hearing himself he greatly improved This even gave him the ability to go out and get me a present on his own.. I use to get so mad. He'd have someone else get me a gift from him. I asked why and he'd say he was afraid I wouldn't like it. Last Christmas he got me a beautiful cocktail dress with a matching coat. Beautiful. I love it. (My size, too). Same with a bunch of stuff now. See. He ain't so bad :)

We had to really work on the his space, my space. I like my books in order by category and in alphabetical order. Dan's filing system is wherever he used it last. When he reads a book of mine he puts it back. When I read a book of his I leave it where I used it last (just Kidding :) We are poles apart personality wise, so we have had to do a lot of adjusting (still are). That's why I like my car and he can do what he pleases with his truck. I refuse to ride with him, tho if he doesn't wash the doggie nose art off of the windows. Here's Dan, Love, Lynn

Lynn didn't say that because she can't see out her side, I can't see out of mine.... (Lynns' laughing) This is especially true at night, she's night blind. So I am, too? Seriously, there have been times when her eyes have been beneficial when I'm driving. Dan  It's so cool to "watch" you guys have fun together. That sense of humor you have is worth a million, easy...

Love your gingerbread man hunt. Wasn't that cute? We've got a great one with the oldest grandson. He had a Spanish babysitter and I asked him if he could say bye-bye in Spanish? He looked me square in the eye and replied, "Bye-Bye in Spanish." He was about 2 at the time. We still laugh at that. He and I are going on vacation next month to a pro football game (oh yes, and to visit my daughter and my favorite (only) son-in-law. He's 14 now (grandson). I like older kids, and prefer teenagers.

Well guys, time to say bye-bye in Spanish and we'll talk to you all tomorrow.

What if Trubble gets us all better? Then we will post on the Post Mortems" ^_^

See ya in Nevada anyway, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

The packrat/stockpile thing -- oh dear. This is a big part of why Mom and I both refuse to live with Dad.

I mean, is it worth fighting over the wrong brand of orange juice? I used to say Consumer Reports was that man's Bible. Just like Mom used to say the other woman was his computer. And he buys on sale, so we have three-year supplies of Coca-Cola (no Pepsi, no store brands, just Coke thank you!) and four-year supplies of Tide (his detergent of choice). Insane. I don't have room to stock up like that. :)

At least he didn't have to worry about Y2K. *chuckles* Giggle!

-AngryGirl

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

This is my last post tonight guys,

Lynn here, Dan's in bed and we do read the Buddha site, too. I wrote to Dr. Irene and she posted there what I wrote to her and her answer to me.

I naturally am a happy person. Lately things were non solvable and gloomy and it showed. One big thing was a lot of yukky stuff I couldn't let go of (I think that is one of the symptoms of abusive relationships). I started posting here and by some magical transformation I managed to let go. I think Dan reading and posting has really helped. The stockpiling of things is what brought this up. I was stockpiling wrongs "done to me." Sounds so silly and I know that keeping all this stuff isn't healthy, but I couldn't let go and forget it and get on with life. :)

Anyhow, the more I vented, spewed and just plain witched, the less it became. That's why I added my biggest let down. My friends death. I honestly can't think of another big or small one where I feel Dan let me down.

Then I wrote to Dr. Irene. I was still thinking in the back of my mind that if I let down my guard he was going to get to me again. She suggested I enjoy. I am and I haven't been this happy in years. I somehow knew I had to let go of past garbage and give it another chance. I didn't want to get into the you gave me 5 years of kitty poop, so now I'm going to give it back to you and see how you like it! I frequently gave as good as I got, if not better.

This wasn't how I want/wanted to live though. I don't want to get even. I want to get on with the life I think we can have. 60/40 sometimes and 40/60 others.

What has happened here as we both read the posts together is we find ourselves laughing and feeling sad at ALL the posts. We see ourselves in some and have sat back and thought how silly some of this stuff is. We could make such issues out of such petty things. Can you imagine anyone but us here fighting for 3 1/2 years over a leaky roof? 

What I've noticed especially is, that as I've mellowed, so has Dan. We were just in bed singing goodnight to the dog Kittie and realized something. I don't now quite what, but we held hands, kissed goodnight and there was a tenderness I don't remember in years. :) 

I am enjoying the moment Dr. Irene. What have I got to lose? I know I still have stuff and Dan still has stuff, but until that stuff comes up and we have deal with it, why ruin the moment? No reason to.

I truly had forgotten how to feel happy from the inside and yet these last few days it keeps seeping out and it feels GREAT. Dan sees it, too, and his actions/reactions are flowing along with mine. Amazing. And all because each of you stopped taking the other's inventory and instead looked inside...

False honeymoon? Who cares? When we fall back (and I'm sure we will) well have to start over and keep at it until we get it right.

Am I far from wrong? Only when you care deeply about someone can you get so upset about the little and some not so little things? Yep. I can't imagine getting this worked up over my neighbor. Some of our stockpiling stories here at the site are hilarious, yet when Dan starts in with the yard full of junk I could choke him.

I do think a lot of MY letting go has to do with the sharing with ALL OF YOU and Dan, too. OK TRUBBLE & LOCO......^_^ It really seems to be therapeutic. OK Doc, I won't question, I'll just go along with it........If I sound tooooooooo happy, it's because I am. You are choosing to be happy Lynn. This is a choice. Both of you are choosing not to be defensive and combative...

Thanks a Million and Love to all, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Hi everybody!

Wow Lynn, it's so great to hear you so happy, and Dan too. And yes, your "stuff" will come up again at some point, but you'll both have wisdom and insight that you didn't before.

I wrote my H a big email last night. Tried to put some of the energy I've put into my posts here into my email to him. I summed up the core of what I've learned here (but didn't tell him how I learned it--this site is helping me tremendously, but I know he would be very uncomfortable with my "public" exposure of our problems) I thanked him for the weekend, and talked about some of the reasons why he would say "I don't like you, or respect you" when he doesn't really mean it. That it's probably because subconsciously if he feels I'm insecure, then I won't be as likely to leave the relationship. But that the reality is that when I hear those words I lose hope in the relationship and want to flee. I summed up much of what Dr Irene has said here in the catbox and what I've learned from David's section. I told him that I also need time to heal.

When I spoke to him today, I asked if he had read it. He said yes and that it had been very deep and he could see I had put a lot of thought into it. He said he felt most of what I said was true and it got him thinking that many other people live out these scripts learned through their upbringing, and have no inkling that life can be any different. I agreed and I told him that I felt that we were just spinning our wheels unless we look at the real core of why we are doing what we are doing and what we both really want out of life. I said that I think it's important that we look very closely and honestly at ourselves, because otherwise we may be wasting each other's time.

I think we are getting somewhere. I noticed with him today that he really seems to be concerned about what others think (and I thought *I* was more that way). Worried about what people hear us saying, or thinking I might be making an inappropriate expression in a restaurant (the owners might think I don't like the food). If I say something that comes out awkwardly, he is immediately embarrassed and corrects me. I told him not to worry about it, that I know how to handle myself in public. It's strange because he always acts as if he doesn't care what the world thinks, but I realized today that he cares too much! He has a set of internal rules that are very constrictive in day to day life. Maybe that's why he feels like he can't be "himself".

Anyway, there's progress. I feel tired, but I feel like we are starting to get somewhere. I wonder where we would be right now if I didn't have some of the insight I've gained here. Probably both running in opposite directions by now.

warm thoughts and hugs to everyone.  Sounds good...

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Oh and Becky - I like the reunion idea, and I really like the "on Dr Irene" part. But on the other hand, maybe Trubble with all his stockpiling of cat food could better afford it. Hey, AK, not fair. It's hard to stockpile fresh fish!

:)

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Dear Ak,

Lynn here, Isn't it funny how the emailing each other once removes the "something" ? Great way of communication.

I thought we got to go somewhere with Dr. Irene for our reunion! Yeah? Where are we going?

and I stockpile, too! :) It's my stuff so it's different, huh? I personally think the world is full of keepers and thrower awayers. I just don't want all the kept outside in the yard.

Have a great day, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Oh, Dear AK,

This is Lynn again, The public me vs. the real me I told you about my mother. I think she was raised like that and she raised us that way. I remember, "this is a family secret, what would the neighbor's think? Let's not tell_______, and some of these are just between us." Maybe I outgrew some of this when I started working in public as a waitress and a bartender. (This was a career of choice, I hated office work, etc and always went back). I can remember the polite manipulations for me to get a "better" job. Sad but true, bartending pays well. Better than nursing back when.......What must have helped me....How about a bunch of drinkers for a peer group? They didn't care what I thought or said in public. Or how I acted or dressed. I tend to have a let it all hang out this is me attitude and if you like me fine, if not that's fine, too. That I know I didn't get from my mother. In fact she could be rather a snob. In later life she bought a business, and basically got in with the charity group and country club set. I think she was in her element here. Yet when I was included I managed to mind my manners. (From my bar days I could have told some tales on some of the club sets anyway). After rereading your post I might have made the more uncomfortable than they made me. :)

For all my yakking here, I am rather shy in public and do watch what I say. I don't have a lot of close friends, but I do have a lot of acquaintances. And I don't publicly tell my life history. Isn't the net great? Like a new form of peer support or group therapy or something...

Dear Angry,

I currently have abut 10-12 packs of Pepsi (Dan's drink). W have one grocery store here in town so when we get a sale here or Up North we buy. Ask Dad to send me some coke. Y2K is over. Have a good day:)

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Did anyone else read the Harville Hendrix Book on Couples? I did and then hid it. I felt there was too much Dan could/would (past) have used against me. Interesting concept about how we subconsciously pick our mates as they have the ability to heal our past hurts. See how defensive you were? That's how he felt about you. Promise.

Long story so I won't ........but, at one time I wanted to join the Peace Corps. Left a sore spot for years. Then when my late H and I joined the empty nest group he said, "Ok, now let's join the Peace Corps." We didn't, but I could have!

Just thinking aloud, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Lynn here again,

I seem to be doing a lot of reflecting today. Remember way back, when Dan called our "old" therapist? This is a group of.... and he left a message and requested another therapist and would they call please to set up an appointment. No one from there has called. I find this interesting. Lynn

Call again. My name is Fate and I'm intervening.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Hi Lynn

Yes of course Dr Irene would come to the reunion. She'd have to, to make sure we weren't all "mis-behaving". I just think that Trubble is in a better financial position to pay for all of our travel expenses. And even if he isn't, it's time he paid dues for his impertinent ways.

:)  Hey! Just wait one catnip pickin' minute there. You can't say that to me!

AK

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Hi, everyone!

I don't want to "start something" with the stockpiling topic! To his credit, he didn't insist that we barricade ourselves in with all our supplies for Y2K. But he has said other things that lead me to believe that he thinks it's wise to be prepared for some future "event." He's very interested in prophesy, psychic predictions, and the only part of the Bible I've ever seen him read is Revelations. None of this in and of itself is cause for worry, but when I put it together with his general mindset, that the world is untrustworthy, people, in general, are rotten, and in a disaster it's every man for himself, I worry a bit. He doesn't spend long hours pursuing this, so I don't worry too much. I just hate the cynical, "the heck with everyone else attitude"! And I have to wonder, if it's everyone for himself, and I REALLY needed him........ .

He is leaving on a business trip tomorrow, will be gone until Monday. I have conflicting feelings about that. I will miss him, yet I always have a certain sense of freedom when he's gone. I think it's because when I look at him, I see rejection, and when he's gone, I'm not reminded of it. He told me the other day that I am good for him, he considers himself a better person because of me. I don't know what to make of that! He's often told me that I've ruined his life! I reminded him of that; he had no explanation for the contradiction. What's the truth?????? And what part of him is better? I don't see in him what I consider a gentle, giving, emotionally balanced nature--at least not often! Again: what's the truth?  He loves you Becky.

I have a home extension meeting here tonight, and I need to get ready, so I'll say bye bye in Spanish! maybe I'll check in later tonight!

Adios!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, September 19, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

This is Lynn and If I knew how to say hello in Spanish I would. So simply Hello.

I read your answer to H about what he said to you and your reply about "You use to say" I use to do that with Dan, especially about the $18.75 table. I would see something I wanted and he'd ask if I was going to get it and and I'd remind him of the fight over the $18.75 table.

Somewhere in the recesses of my brain I knew this wasn't worth fighting about. And Dan, if you are reading this, please skip this paragraph as I don't need you to know ALL of my secrets. HEY DAN: LOOK HERE!

Anyhow I started by asking him, "Honey, do you mind if I get this?" He never did and I always got it. What seemed so silly to me was having to ask. Then I decided it made him feel so much better and it didn't matter to me, so I may as well ask. Selling out? Nope. I don't feel like it. See? Dr. Irene replied to me over in "B's" post to pick our fights. (I'll save the tantrum for when he tries to tell me how I'm suppose to feel again). This still seems silly to me, but apparently not to Dan sooooo What did I lose? Nada.

Long story about maybe he really meant what he said (Your H). I can be such an optimist, but maybe?

Have a great week. I really like Dan to go for a few days as I'm always glad to see him. Day after day after day he can drive me crazy. About 3 days and I'm elated.

From your son, Stop and smell the tulips?

Hi the rest of you. Crazy weather here. Was 95 over the weekend and now it's about 40. I love it.

Adios and Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2000

S1

Dear AK

Lynn here, Dan and I just wrote a 20 page post and he accidentally hit reset. Been there, done that, haven't you. Dan says it was one of his better ones so I'll let him go first this time, Lynn

Dear AK, and Trubble, I may need you help with this.

I glad that you told your H about the phone call, because if you never he might feel that you were siding with her against him, and at present that is the last thing that you need.

I understand how your H feels about the child support. When my first wife and I divorced, I wasn't making much money but paid what I could and she turned me in to child welfare services for non-payment. I then had to go and get it straightened out. I only have one daughter so I didn't have to pay as much as those fathers with more than one child. After Lynn and I got together I was able to catch up with what I was in arrears, my ex then told my daughter to tell me not to pay so much as she got a fixed amount no matter what I paid. One minute not enough, the next too much, go figure.

As for his father, I think that he is looking for something that his father can't/won't give, no matter how much he tries or does. I base this thought on personal experience and what I have been able to delve out between my mother and myself. I think by siding with your Hs' ex the father is telling him, see you're just not good enough. He will not get it from your mother-in-law either, for reasons only known herself. The losers are all.

My mother is similar to his father, only it's the daughter-in-laws who