Comments for
Catbox 16
Material
posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be
considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care
provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene
Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may
be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes
provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution,
please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com
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to Catbox 15
OK gang, 15 is edited.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 16, 2000
S1
Steve here.
I don't mean to put you on pedestal Irene. I just believe you have
helped me very much. For that I can't help but be thankful. Thanks
Steve. Please let me help you even more...
Irene (to Asha) -re: Lawyer indicating Steve's emotional development
is on par with his kids: "Actually, I don't think Lurking Lawyer's
analogy is a bad one."
Well...if you agree with her...hmm...
You are saying my emotional development level is the same as my kids.
That's quite broad-sweeping, and general - enough to mean almost
anything. Therefore, of not much use in a therapeutic sense.
So, in a sense, it doesn't feel at all like most of your stuff Irene.
There are many more harsh things you say to/about me which may appear
more hurtful, but yet have great value to me, and help me grow. This,
doesn't seem to have value. Too general, and
"label-intensive". I can't find any growth in this. Steve,
the content of the comment is not untrue. My consensus with it is not a
zinger and is certainly not intended to get you defensive, though I knew
it probably would. I have to commend you for bringing your objections up
here so calmly.
The emotional development thing is exactly
what you are working on! Think: Nobody would expect a kid not to react
emotionally to stuff like this, but the expectations for an adult are
different. To relate it to the stuff I tried to explain to you on the
last page, Lurking Lawyer made some observations. Not that it matters,
but I detected no zinger in any of her comments. Cut and dry,
straight-talking, this is how this lady sees the world. (Pretty healthy,
I think.) I agreed with her observations. I hesitated before throwing in
my editorial
If you apply the same steps I outlined for you
regarding your relationship with Asha to LL's opinion (and my
consensus), you would simply agree or disagree with the opinion. It
would not be experienced as threatening (More correct: You would not
create a threatening experience.) because you are secure in the self, do
not need consensus, you are OK
with being not OK.
In other words, it really doesn't matter.
There is no / little ego-involvement, simply an interest in the truth
and in doing the best for the higher Self.
If you agreed with the opinion or aspects of
it, you would simply begin to work on those pieces. If you didn't agree,
you wouldn't because there is nothing to work on. If you were crystal
clear on this stuff, you would likely agree with the content - because
overall, it is true.
To see you agree with it, and defend it, leaves me perplexed.
Steve This is about detachment, disengagement,
freedom. High level stuff. The stuff of personal power,
self-control, and inner serenity. No one can hurt you here, because you
are untouchable. You know. There is no effort, no defense on your
part because it is not necessary, nor would it even occur to you.
This is one aspect of the essence of what
Buddha taught: Live and let live, do the best for the Self, ego is
meaningless... It is the essence of why I keep saying I am on no
one's "side," what I mean when I say I am on the side of
each person's higher Self. This is why I don't side /agree with either
(sorry for use of the words) "victim" or "abuser"
and why I get into "trouble" with both from time to time. (Did
you see the last
letter who is upset with me? Gives me way too much power!) This
state of inner peace and unshakeable sense of self is difficult to
achieve, as you can see. It is too easy to get lost defending the ego,
etc. But, there is no other way out as far as I am concerned;
this is the place to spend one's life striving for and becoming better
and better at.
From
Canto 12: "160. The self is the master of the self. Who else
can that master be? With the self fully subdued, one obtains the sublime
refuge which is very difficult to achieve."
Do you understand now Steve? By the way,
there is nothing here that you can't do.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 16, 2000
S1
Hi Lynn
Hehe - if the seatbelt thing works for you, then do what gets results
(if there is no mutually better way for the 2 of you). I just asked
because I think lots of couples (including me) experience similar
situations and I wondered from Dan's point of view if there was another
way that would "work" for you, that he wouldn't feel angry
about. I ask for my own sake.
I knew I could call you honey, that's why I did. I wasn't messin'
with you. :)
love you lots
Asha
p.s. I'd also rather be killed outright than maimed and mutilated
(and Dan, I know that wasn't your intention). :)
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 16, 2000
S1
Hi, Jay here. I really hope I don't offend anyone. The anger grew
like a mushroom cloud and exploded like a volcano. I just seem to have
so much of it in me. And if God is meant to store tears in a bottle he
better change to buckets fast! Everything turned black and painful. And
I managed to pass beyond reason into what I suppose is pure grief.
I wish I knew what this is all about as I am fine now. It just seems
to take small triggers to lose control. I suppose I could really be
depressed and need something to help things look better: but I so much
want not to have any more drugs or see any more doctors. They might
decide I really am mad and to be honest in the last 24 hours I would
have agreed.
Or it could be the Paxil withdrawal still.
The family session was AWFUL mainly as I just couldn't seem to stop
shouting. As if my voice was stuck in one mode. My husband has tried to
be nice and I can't be nice back. It is just that he is also so
B....awkward too and I can't seem to be tolerant.
I wish to God he Would post here. It would probably be therapeutic
for him just now as living with me must be hell. He is clear.. Does love
me: doesn't want a divorce. Bought me some Christmas baubles (he has
forgotten he doesn't believe in Christmas trees? )
I think I just have one huge fear of making things up. One huge fear
that if I do I will get really hurt again. He is trying but he won't
talk and in the end someone and it will have to me has to break the
cycle. I WISH I COULD STOP LOVING HIM but I can't. I want the part of
him that used to be.
The truth of it is that it has been hell this year for both of us. It
can't be easy to have had a suicidal wife and my daughter as she is for
him and I just can't seem to understand care that he does give that is
not words. I have never thought he bought things out of a sense of
guilt.
I married him in rescue mode. I thought he would stay friendless in
his university room if I didn't. He was so shy and gentle. I think I was
a whirlwind in his life as I wanted to go out and got him to.
He was always so principled. I would have lived with him like a shot:
but he did things despite a hippy image the old fashioned way. For him
it has always been important to do the right and serious thing.
Life has always been so dammed serious. Yet he still wears long hair
and hippy clothes. I want to be the wild hippy. But I am less able to
wear the clothes now.
I guess in all the grief I am missing me. I hate not having the part
of myself he liked. I hate this perpetual grief. Sure as eggs is eggs my
daughter is going to make Christmas really painful. She managed to
really make my birthday hell.
I am so tired of the pain......
So tired of tears.
I hate this emotional roller coaster.
I will never ever go to the family therapist again. I always though
it was something I could cope with but I have changed into something
fragile I never used to be - I found her insensitive.
I can't reconcile the two halves of my husband and half of me is
desperate to find the good part of the relationship again and the other
half terrified of the difficult half. We used to be so strong together
despite the way he is.
My mother in law says he has never ever put me down to her. But he
has to my own parents. he won't ever help me with things I am in
difficulty in but he has been shopping and cooking. He acknowledged my
son needs special things from me.
He is sure I am ill. In all reality I have had more than my pound of
flesh from him.
If only I could forgive him. I can't.
In all of this I still managed to do a lot today.
Maybe life's events have sent us both crazy and we are going to get
better.
This is more rubbish. please ignore. love Jay
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 16, 2000
S1
This is not Jay's husband. It is Jay trying to think what he would
post. I will call him Jake.
I do love my wife and I don't want a divorce. She has been ill and
now is not the right time to make those decisions. I do want peace and I
can't handle all this shouting. I want a peaceful coexistence and
independence but eventually I want to be with Jay. I have said I will
try and be more empathic but I NEED SPACE. How can
you take it? I do care. I do think she is not well. What
do you think is wrong with her? I do eventually want her and our
daughter to be friends. I am not proud of hurting her but she has hurt
me now. Ouchhh!
I am a shy person. I do not find going out easy. I do all the
housework almost as far as the kitchen is concerned and I make a lot of
the meals and go shopping.
I haven't cut my hair as it and my beard are a part of me now, like a
limb.
Love, not Jake
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Hi all the Honey's in the Cat Box. Lynn Honey here and I told Dan
tonight he could call me honey again. Is that progress or what? What
a Honey!
Actually, I got rather defensive and was going to post and decided he
(Steve) doesn't need me at bat for him. OK, I get the message and I hear
you all. I think Steve may (this I don't know) act immature at times,
but I never thought he was. Just guarded and ... well, whatever. Anyhow,
no need for me to get my nose into it now. Why not
Lynn? I'm not sure if I'm more bothered by the silence on the board, or
that you chose to comment on the immaturity thing - an ego thing! - when
there was sooo much more to my posts. Nevertheless, while I regard
the immaturity as peripheral, I recognize you are not alone in feeling I
attacked Steve. This saddens me greatly since attack Steve is about
the last thing I want to do. Clearly, either I didn't communicate
well enough, or, I made an error in thinking Steve - and the board - can
handle this. (Well, I'm not so sure about the board, but I think Steve can
handle this - after he has had time to think.) Meanwhile, I'm glad
you feel supportive of him. I sincerely hope you, and others
out there, not refrain from going to bat for Steve for fear of
offending me. That would just make things double-awful.
This is for all of us and I don't know if its correct thinking or
not, but Dan and I had a few go-rounds last night, He definitely won the
fight, but a pretty hollow victory it was. I get the first class award
for disengage, too. Congrats! I let him
think it out (or didn't care if he did or not) and he apologized
tonight. Not one of those, "If you felt that way I'm sorry,"
one's either. Then we had a good talk and a few laughs and here we are
with at least a talking type of communication going on.
This kinda relates to Jay's last post and the comment about really
loving her H. I look back and honestly, I don't really love Dan when he
gets in one of his righteous, never been wrong, it's all my fault and
I'll do anything I want moods. In fact I don't even like him.
So what's the big deal here? I think we (I) can make ourselves crazy
trying to make things work out. I finally suggested to Dan that maybe he
should try starting over and doing the "courting" all over
again. Remember and for the new ones, our first date was our last date.
He seduced me and we've lived together ever since.
Back to the story. I'd really like to be picked up by Dan again. Then
wooed and won. He's still the guy of choice, but some of the crap he has
pulled lately he would never have tried while (or if) we were dating.
And I would never have put up with it. So why now???
I kinda feel like he has to start all over again to win me. This
seems silly, but right now I am not ready to wait for him to
"change" and meanwhile keep cooking, cleaning and washing
clothes and dishes. I'd die of old age before that happened. So don't
say you are going to change and expect a little honey bed partner
either. I need some effort and he is making some. I've noticed myself
changing with this, too.
I go back to my original post and Dan is and can be so silver tongued
that if he spent half as much time doing as he did talking about doing
it, we would have been done and over with this by now.
Well, last night his gift of gab was plum ridiculous sounding to me
and although I didn't laugh (outside) I just couldn't be bothered with
anymore smooth talking. We both laughed about it tonight.
I also made a pretty true statement a bunch of pages back that if you
engage before marriage, do you disengage before divorce. So true. I
won't spend the rest of my life disengaged just for the peace of mind
because I can't leave the bum. I don't want a relationship like that and
won't stay in one for long. To get his attention OK, but I want a
relationship between two adults who are both wrong at times and both
make mis"teaks" and the next day don't give a darn and don't
have to fight to the finish to prove they are right.
I guess we could spend the next 30 years or so doing this and then
what? I know I need more.
Long babbly again, but I think I am glad Dan has agreed to get
actively involved in the relationship and not just talk about going to
do so...
Speaking of PMSey, you should have heard me when I had the headaches.
I said to Dan if I kept up the barking he'd have to get me a dog
license. I was and couldn't stop. Different kind of bark I guess,
because he knew that none of it was directed at him. Everyone got
it equally. Glad I was still under the bed.
Love to you all and we'll see. I'm wondering if I started dating him
tomorrow how it would turn out? Changes are harder I think when we live
together.
Food for thought here, huh, Trubble, honey? You
bet FakeHoneyMommy!
Hi, Jake, I like it! I do wish he'd read it.
Dr. Irene. You'll have to kick Trubble and LOCO off the pedestal. Actually,
they kicked me off. Crash!!!!
I do love you all and I wish us all luck. The guys in the dog house,
too.
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday,
December 17, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene (the other honey, or is that allowed with a doctor?) How
about HoneyDoc?
I think we all know you care (or at least I do). And I think only
those who make you out to be Superhuman will take offense, for any
length of time, to any perceived "attacks".
Since you were the one to mention silence on the board/fear of
offending you there was one thing I did want to mention. Not about the
Steve stuff, but about the "yukky
reader comment" (who said some negative stuff about Dr. I's
supposed "big ego") - I think you meant the comment was yukky,
not the reader, right? Neither. I don't think the
reader or the comment per se is yukky. What is yukky (i.e., sad
and disempowering) is that the reader buys into his or her irrational
underlying thinking process. That irrational underlying thinking governs
the readers thoughts, feelings and behavior. This person thinks they
have to remain silent for fear they will be blasted or whatever else it
is they are afraid of. They have essentially put themselves behind bars.
Ouchhh!
Rephrased: The reader feels helpless and
out of control and doesn't realize that the only reason s/he feels
helpless and out of control is because s/he chooses to feel that way!
Because the reader is mistakenly convinced that the size of my ego
is a factor in whether or not s/he can open their mouth. The reader
therefore blames me (i.e., gives me their power) for his or her
inability to speak! The Ouchhh! is that the reader is creating his or
her own pain but thinks that the yukkiness comes from outside (me)!
Another rephrase: The reader feels
helpless and is trying to make me responsible for his or her feelings of
helplessness, when in fact the reader is creating his or her own
yukkiness. I have zero to do with it!
The significance of all this: Not taking
responsibility for the self, giving away your personal power and
learning not to do same is what this site is all about and is what I am
trying to teach all my readers not to do because it messes with your
life. The reality is that reader can "say" whatever s/he
wants. The worse thing I am likely to do is disagree and perhaps point
out why. I don't come zooming out of cyberspace to chop off the hand
that typed rotten things about either me or the size of my ego.
More: What the reader is making
themselves afraid of is how they are going to make themselves
feel if I say something that I see as truthful, which they are
probably defending against seeing because it is experienced as an
Ouchhh!
My big ego: Has anybody noticed that I
haven't defended the size of my ego, or taken the letter as personally
offensive, or not printed it because it pointed out a "fault",
etc., etc.? This is exactly the lesson I am trying to teach.
How I feel about my big ego: I don't
have one, even though I do (though it is no bigger or smaller now than
before); either way, I don't give it much thought because it really
doesn't matter. The point is that I am not identified with my ego.
If somebody blasts the size of my ego, I am OK with being blasted. I can
understand how the reader can feel my ego is too big; I can understand
the reader's intimidation, though it saddens me. I would like the reader
to take their power so they are not intimidated, but I can't do
that for them. That the reader thinks my ego is bigger than it was
before is of no consequence to me, but I know it is of consequence to
them. I know this individual does not understand personal
responsibility, and that is sad.
On Validation: This reader's letter, how
they feel, their intimidation, how what they see as my big ego affects
them, etc. is all about them - and has absolutely nothing to do with me
- because I have no real power over them. Though, since I am given the
power to validate, I could validate more. And I do when I have to
- but I use validation sparingly since it is no more than a form of
manipulation I use to help people past hurdles in their lessons. I'm
pretty clear, I think, in pointing out that
validation
is invaluable early on, but later in recovery, validation is just a
place to get stuck in - for "victims" as well as
"abusers" by the way. Can you see how powerful
validation is - and in the "wrong" hands has the potential to
be very destructive? If you need validation, you have opened
yourself up to being manipulated by anybody who knows how to massage
your ego! Yikes!
How this relates to Steve and everybody else
out there: I am asking Steve, the reader, and the others out
there, to consider doing the same thing I'm doing: Essentially, to stop
bouncing off other people, giving them the power to hurt you, or to
require them to (codependently) behave a certain way in order to protect
your feelings by massaging your ego.
I didn't want this to be interpreted as more defensiveness on my part
by mentioning/asking about it. I also didn't feel the need to come to
*your* defense, because the comment just simply doesn't fit IMO. Thanks
Asha for cluing me in on what's going on out there. I had assumed that
my comments to the reader were understood. I guess only in my head. This
is not the first, or the last time, I will live in the clouds. I will
email the writer of that letter to come take a look at this explanation
too.
All this is extremely important stuff.
Please, do not hesitate to ask questions, Asha and everybody else who
has any. In fact, this is so important, it got it's own board. Please
go
here.
I like to read some of the yukky stuff too, because it's just as real
as the inspirational stuff. Maybe because everyone has the potential for
growth IMO, and even some of the most defensive, angry dialogues can end
up as great learning experiences (I know some of mine have anyway). I'm
glad you posted it.
I still think you're great Dr I (ego and all - :) hehe) Dr.
HoneyEgo. Perfect! (Now you have something to call me when Trubble or I
call you AkAsha! By the way, thanks for the validation Asha.
Giggle. There's nothing wrong with validation, as long as you don't need
it! Signed, Dr. FakeHoneyEgo's mom.
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Hi Guys and DocHoney, Lynn Honey here,
Somewhere in this I may have read something wrong, but I got the
impression that Steve was called "immature" he
was behaved in an immature manner in the example with
the kids and that DocHoney agreed with the comment I
did. My impression was/is that Steve may act immature at times
(who doesn't?) but where I got defensive was "labeling him."
If that wasn't the case it was in my interpretation. There
was no intention to "label" him. Given the info posted, LL
pointed out something about his behavior that he may want to take a look
at. I agree. That's all. No zinger intended.
Steve, not in defense of you, more in friendship, I seem to
understand you. What you are saying and what you are trying to say and
what you mean when you say things. I've never tried to analyze this,
except to say I see a lot of you in me.
This gets confusing because I used to think it was male vs. female in
presentation of what's wrong with our relationships. For reason still
crazy to me I understand you a lot better than I do Dan and yet I
empathize with Asha because I think I know what she wants and expects.
Crazy, too, because I can't straighten out my own life, let alone
yours.
I do have an interesting dream to relate. Woke me UP!!! Disaster of
some sorts as we were up on a mountain top (we live over a mile high to
start with) and there were huge black clouds overhead and once they
cleared I was in a seat on a bus and I can describe the seats and the
bus and my two SIL's were in the seat behind me and I turned around and
said, "By the way, did you know that I'm pregnant." (With
a cat, no doubt!)
Dream, ha! Nightmare. But a significant dream nonetheless, hey
DocHoney?
At 54 and I had a hysterectomy at 27. Black clouds gone and a new
life beginning??? Hey, I'll go for that!
My advice to Steve because is what I want Dan to do: Start over. From
scratch. With Asha of course. Somewhere and somehow I got mired in the
swamp of where we were and where we are with the dishes, dirty laundry,
dishes, "hoovering" and even sex. In the middle of this I
can't fix anything. Start over and start again. I have too much garbage
here in the middle. It's time to take the trash out. Giggle!
Hi the rest of you and Happy Trails. We have a New Year coming up and
God Bless Us All. And I still have to give Kudos to Dan and Steve. They
may both be immature jerks now that is
character assassination! and nerds :) more!
, yet they are trying as we all are....
That makes them both heroes. I really don't think this is easy for
"males." Or females. Or any other type
of human, including human cats.
Love,
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dr I
I think you make good points about how we interpret criticism,
personal attacks etc. There's no doubt that validation feels good, but
it's definitely good not to require it for our own self-approval. A life
without validation would be tough, but that's not likely to happen. Most
of us put far too much weight in how others see us, I think.
I mentioned the title "yukky reader comment" first because
of the word "yukky" Glad we cleared that
one up, I hope anyway., and also because I thought his/her
(attack?) mention about ego had some similarity to the comments about
emotional maturity/immaturity. Yes. That's what I
pointed out too. There are differences in the authors intentions,
but I can't know for sure whether the "Voice in the Desert"
had good or bad intentions. It really doesn't
matter, at least to me. For example he/she may be familiar with
someone on the board and felt he/she was protecting that person by
"enlightening" you I doubt it. The
letter was way too hostile. (with stuff I totally disagree
with, as I said earlier). There was also no way I could know the
intentions of the Lurking Lawyer (to "side" with me? to offer
straight feedback to Steve? Yes. LL is a very
straight woman. But, intentions don't really matter... etc etc)
and I didn't want to encourage any of the "siding" stuff,
because even if it momentarily feels good to my ego, I feel it overall
does more damage than good. (Though agreed, if we could "be the
Buddha" this damage could not occur.) Something
to aspire to... When you said "yukky reader's
comments" I initially thought you were referring to how you
experienced his/her comments. I understand now that's not the case. Right.
But, the letter came at just the right time to illustrate that Steve
need not take offense at being called "immature." I don't need
take offense to being accused of having a "big ego." That was
the point for the person on the receiving end. For the person on
the giving end, the point was: Why are you giving me so much
power that you are afraid to speak? And, why do you think you will be
freer to speak if I codepend with your buttons? As long as you have
buttons, you are open to manipulation! That is the yuk!
I just felt that the "Voice in the Desert" would be less
open to your comments when he/she read the title, and I think there is
an opportunity to instead draw this person in (even if it's unlikely).
Same thing with the emotional maturity comment (though Steve can handle
it). You're right. By the way, I changed it.
A more neutral title - "disgruntled reader's comment?" or
something like that?
Thanks Honey Doc and special welcome to her mom.
AshaHoney
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear JayHoney,
I haven't forgotten you. In fact I think I see and feel a lot more
than you are telling. I just have to relate my experiences with our old
therapist. I had one of those screaming, crying hysterical therapy
sessions where I couldn't take any more. What I got??? "Poor Dan,
how do you think he feels being torn like this?" Lynn,
if you react and make such a spectacle of yourself, you look like the
nut - and she'll never help Dan with his passive-aggressive stuff. One
of the major reasons to control that temper Honey. Today I think
Poor Dan my sweet young something and she can take her poor Dan and live
with him for a while. Very bad therapy for me. I do prefer Dr. Irene's
way and I do prefer the direct "cognitive" style.
At the time I was too distressed and down to think about poor Dan and
poor Lynn; was a mess. All I got was anger and resentment. It's taken me
a long time to recover from her "therapy." I'm not saying it
was wrong or bad, but it wasn't for me. I was in it to get us a better
relationship, not to pity Dan because he had a crappy abusive
upbringing. Even if the therapist knows abuse, how
can she help but not react to screaming and crying? I would take the
session and focus on your misbehavior too. Duh...
Dear Dr. IreneHoney,
Moral of your posts maybe, and simplified. Dan and I were in a bar
one night and this guy "hated" me because I was from a certain
town. Dan got mad and was going to take him outside.
My reaction? Dumb! Who cares. This guy had a lot of reasons he could
have used for not liking me, but because I lived somewhere??? Indeed. I
thought this was so silly and Dan's reaction. Well, I thought it should
have been "who cares?" The guys real reason.... In high school
he went to the town for sports and got beat up. Like this is my fault? Giggle...
Anyhow, I hear ya' DocHoney. Steve must, too as he seems to have
handled this better than some of us. I think this might be friendship
though. I feel the same about Dan. I call him lots of things, but I sure
get offended if anyone else does!
Jay, why can't you still wear your hippie clothes? I still wear what
I want. My son called yesterday and was in shorts. It was 7 above there.
I laughed. It was 8 below here and I was in shorts, too. Still am today.
Well, that explains everything: The woman
has great legs, and, that's why Dan insists on calling her
"Honey."
Talk to you all later,
Love, LynnHoney
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Hello Dr. Irene,
I have decided that there is no hope for my relationship with my
husband. The house is in my name and the main issue for me is daycare
for our three year old daughter. Money is also a big issue. Daycare is
$155. a week and a divorce will cost $2,000.
My husband is unable to work a forty hour week due to his multiple
physical ailments some documented (asthma & obesity) some not
(chronic fatigue). I could probably get myself to toss him out except
that he has no source of money, and there is always some reason he can't
stay with friends (dog dander, mold whatever). I guess I don't want to
be the bad guy and toss him in the street. I would not like the kind of
person who would do that.
He has convinced himself that I am the cause of his life's bad turns.
He has given his all to me and I am getting ready to unload my
responsibility to him. He thinks I should have gotten him on disability.
I have been in a relationship with this man for 26 years. How can I
get over this inability to cut him off? --------------Thanks Hi.
Please look here
for how to access advise options.
SteveHoney, where are you?
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family, Hello
DanHoney!
First off, I would like to comment on the remark that Steve was
acting immaturely. So do I at times Us two and
three. , as a matter of fact, there are days that I feel and act
younger than my age, days that I feel and act my age and days that I
feel and act older than my age so I see nothing wrong with Steve
occasionally doing the same. As you all know Steve and I push each
other's buttons on occasion so this isn't saying that I am siding with
him or defending his actions just saying that there are some things that
he is entitled to. If I could re-do this exchange,
I would have been more specific that Steve is not immature as in blanket
statement, but that Steve's behavior in that situation seemed immature
to me.
I went to the therapist Thursday and asked her about my family's
relevancy and she said that it was so she would know who I was talking
about and where they fit in. Also asked her about short /long term
memory and she said that it was one of the signs of depression.
Interesting, to me, I thought that it was a result of all the booze that
I ingested in my younger days. During the session, she also brought up
the nonexistence (symbolically) of my boundaries. I also told her about
your expression of disengage, Dr I, and though she hadn't heard it used
that way she did like it and agreed with it. I
think your therapist is trained in a systemic family approach. My use of
"disengage" comes from the 12-step codependency model.
I also made a comment about how when I was working I smoked less than
when I was home - as a matter of fact, while I was gone for the two
weeks last month, I managed to make a pack last two or two and a half
days. She asked me why, I have to think on that one, it was like a
homework assignment. Let us know what you come up
with.
Dr Irene, I know that you said that you would make no therapeutic
explanations but I need your insight on this please. I have been working
on the couples book, as we posted earlier, and in exercise 2 it says to
remember your earliest home and the significant people who were there.
You then have to confront them on what you felt were unfair or
mistreatments which they inflicted on you. I can remember the house, no
problem and the people who were influential, but can't remember any of
their failings where I am concerned. The above isn't exact, but
paraphrased. Is this normal (for me and others like me)? It's
typical not to remember stuff like this when there has been abuse. If
you are having difficulty remembering some of the stuff your mom and dad
did to you, just turn back to earlier Catbox pages. That should jog your
memory! This exercise has to do with our Imago.
Lynn has posted about our little misunderstanding the other night. I
have to admit that I did become indignant and that my actions were
intolerable. I also realize that I was making her responsible for my
reactions. You both bounce off each other big
time. Good that you see it.
She also asked me to think back to our first year together, and if
there would be anything that we should have done that we didn't. We
should have gotten to know each other better before we made a commitment
to each other. This statement (Lynn's) is very true, as she said last
night, and I agree the romance has left our relationship. Can we get it
back? Why not? I don't know but I'm
willing to try. We have made a date for later in the month, which
barring unforeseen events like big fires, no
doubt! , I plan to keep. I know that I have gotten complacent
with our lives. You have a habit of getting
complacent with your own life. Not a good habit. Lynn asked me if
staying home and watching movies or watching her do her thing was
fulfilling for me. At times it is, then there are times that I have to
admit that I would like to do things, but with bars and casinos the only
entertainment in this town, nights out can be very repetitive.
There are two or three high class eateries in town, but I don't like
paying through the nose for food that I can't pronounce, let alone say
that I would like or enjoy.
The big city doesn't offer much more, although they do have plays and
concerts once in awhile - but then we have to drive down there and in
the winter the road can be very slippery. And it may be a sign of old
age, but I don't like driving on those types of roads after dark. I
think it's a sign of sanity Dan. Especially when the road is full
of big city returnees, who have been skiing all day and have to get home
before the evening news. Also when Lynn can't see when we're traveling,
she feels that I can't either. (She has told me this.) She's
a back-seat driver. She could probably learn to relax, with a little
effort, if you would totally stop speeding and tailgating.
I haven't posted to any of you personally as I am still trying to
catch up on the posts, 16, sheesh, but my thoughts are with you.
Trubble,
I don't know if you are sending vibes to LOCO or not, but during
these last few days he has been extra loving and actually leaving the
tree alone, so if you are, Thank you and an extra rainbow for you. Actually
FakeHoneyDaddyDan, LOCO's been sending me vibes. I'm out from under the
bed and it's OK that you are my fake daddy.
Hugs
Dan
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear Cat Box,
I am going to try to keep "me" anonymous in this post, but
it is something I would like to post for someone here and share a
similar experience.
My daughter was molested by a male "friend" of mine when
she was 5 or 6. I'm so sorry... I had
terrible depression and horrible thoughts about myself for
"letting" this happen.
I had to forgive myself, because I didn't let it happen. I didn't
know; I was young, uneducated in the ways of some people in this world,
and really had some tough years with her as an adult - until she
confessed to me that she always thought I knew and didn't do anything
about it. This wasn't so and I told her. It was real tough for me to
talk about, but I felt she asked so she deserved the truth. Yes.
I thankfully knew some policemen and they had him thrown in jail for
something else (these were the days when this was kept silent) and
yes(!) - they set him up to be arrested. We were then put in protective
custody until he was sent to prison and I've never seen him since. And
I hope you and your kid never have to lay eyes on him again.
The morality of his jail term isn't important to this story. At the
time it was thought that this was the best way to protect the child.
Once my daughter learned what really happened, and not what she
thought I let happen, we were able to forgive and get on with our lives.
A lot of therapy for her, too.
Now for the reason, because it seems these things are here to teach
us something. Twice since then there have been instances of child abuse
where I was able to actively intercede and do something about it. I'm
glad I did and glad I was able to and would do it again. Yes...
The reason I'm telling this is because for me the fault wasn't in me
because it happened the first time. The fault now would be if I knew
and let it go for any reason. I can't nor would I excuse this type
of behavior for anyone.
The hardest thing I ever did in this lifetime is forgive myself. But,
thankfully you did. A lot of good it would have done your daughter or
anybody else in your life for you to be walking around with a dark cloud
over your head. I think I will carry scars from this forever, but
if the expensive lesson helped the two children I was able to help
later, that must have been the reason this happen to us.
Dr. Irene, if I left anything out, please help me with the wording. I
appreciate your help and for being here for all of us.
Thanks, ME Thank you for telling us
this. It is a wonderful story that shows how truth and forgiving
the self releases us.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dan
I really relate to what you and Lynn are saying about getting to know
each other better. When Steve and I got involved things were so chaotic
that I don't feel we stepped back properly in order to see if we were
choosing to be together for healthy reasons. This is what I feel we are
doing now. I had often wondered, what if I had made different choices at
the beginning of the relationship - and then I realized that it's never
too late to make those choices. We are, in a way, back to square 1, but
I know for myself, I'm in it with my eyes wide open (and I hope he is
too) - which I think is a good thing.
Steve and I didn't go through a peaceful "courting" stage -
it was filled with a lot of family turmoil. I'd like for him to get to
know me, the me that *I* want to be, better. I'd like to have time to do
fun things with him, which we never did much, having started a new
business and working long hours, and all the family junk that was going
on.
<<when Lynn can't see when we're traveling, she feels that I
can't either. (She has told me this) >>
I have to laugh at this. When Steve drives, I'm constantly braking in
the passenger seat. When I drive he hangs on to the dashboard whenever I
come to a stop. Methinks our "control" buttons are showing. :)
I confess. Me too with my hubby. But, I've been
good. Only one low scream in the last few months. Giggle.
Honeydoc:
you said: <<Glad we cleared that one up, I hope anyway>>
Yes I think we've hacked it death now. Unless of course someone has
something else to say. But I enjoyed the process. :) Same
here. Thanks Asha.
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear ME Thank you so much for your post. I am glad it has worked out
between you and your daughter and in your case the guy got caught.
The worst bit is accepting the child you were meant to have is not
the child you have and that part of the process seems to be to blame the
person closest who invariably was unable to keep the child safe.
I will forgive myself. In my case I will also forgive God. (If you
can do such a thing. I trusted him in the situation.) Good!
I think it just takes time.
Thanks so much for sharing. Not easy to do. I know.
love jay. (Who is going to do some separate posts as her computer
keeps freezing up and destroying what she writes!) Sending
some warm wishes your way Jay...
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear Jay,
Dr. Irene has my permission to tell you where the post came from (in
case you didn't guess). In case you didn't
guess... Doc won't break confidence without written and hand signed
permission. But, she will swap email addresses if two clearly identified
requests come in!
I just wanted you to know that we are not alone and I do care about
you and what's been happening. I think it affects everything for years
to come.
Love,
ME
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 17, 2000
S1
Dear EverbodyHoney,
Lynn Snookums here. Where did he ever get Snookums? Who
cares! Don't ya love it! Headache cure! I seldom leave the house
and so I don't notice, but we have had a bad valve on the gas stove for
years. I went out to the kitchen to start dinner and I felt like I was
hit in the head with a brick. Bingo! Gas leak. Pukey sick and dizzy. Oh
boy...
Dan turned off the gas for now and I'm feeling better already. But,
and a funny "but." This happened to us once before and we had
a vent plug up in a rental. I was sick for about 3 weeks and had a
headache that wouldn't go away. Found out what it was and - funny, Dan's
mother figured out what was wrong with me! "ALL those CATS were
breathing ALL the oxygen and I wasn't getting any and hence I got sooooo
sick. So that's what's been wrong all these years TrubbleHoney.
Grrrrrrr......
Suzy, I haven't forgotten you. Good luck and I'm happy for you.
Hi Jay. Hi Asha. Hi Becky. Astrid, pop in and say hello once in a
while. AJ, sounds like you are doing OK. LL, sis, doncha love it?
Hi to all the rest and Dan and Steve, get on those white horses and
get with the program, will ya? Your damsels in distress dropped our
hankies and we're ready. Giggle! Good thing
Gloria Steinem doesn't hang around these pages...
Love to all of you,
Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
Dear Cat Box,
This is from Lynn Honey and I'm going to go shopping tomorrow and I
got the giggles tonight and please, please, will someone talk to Dan.
He's here with me and laughing with me so I guess this is fair play. GiggleHoney!
Last night I told Dan I needed more romance in our relationship. He
thought about this a bit, got up and looked at the calendar and asked me
what I was doing a week from Tuesday? Would I like to go out to dinner
and whatever?
Then I read his posts. He agrees we need more romance and we all get
a road report, a dining guide and a theatrical review.
Dan, Dan, and Dan! I think I could prance around here in tassels and
you'd think I'd taken up aerobics. Lynn, Lynn, and
Lynn! If ye wants more romance in your life, bring romance to your life!
Yes dear: YOU!
Okay, okay. He heard me and he is here laughing, too, but ....
Love you all and I guess I'll go out to dinner a week from Tuesday
and see what happens. It's probably a good thing we started living
together on the first date because he might have not asked me out for
the second date yet. And what would you guys do if
you didn't complain about each other? We'd have no funny posts! Thank
you both for being who you are...
I love ya' Dan,
Lynn
Ps. LynnHoney, on the shopping trip, Trubble
suggests you pick up some catnip. He swears it's better than Viagra.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
Dear Lynn,
<<< I won't spend the rest of my life disengaged just for
the peace of mind because I can't leave the bum. I don't want a
relationship like that and won't stay in one for long. To get his
attention OK, but I want a relationship between two adults who are both
wrong at times and both make mis"teaks" and the next day don't
give a darn and don't have to fight to the finish to prove they are
right.>>
That's just how I feel right know. I don't really know how to handle
it. I feel peaceful, we are not fighting, but there is no fire, no real
emotional intimacy and I do feel that this peacefulness is not enough in
the end. We are sort of ‘dating', as in not living together, but
seeing each other on weekends on a sort of lets see what happens basis.
I think I need more than this, but am not quite sure about what it is I
need and where to start to make changes. Maybe I am frustrated, cause I
feel this peacefulness has more to do with avoiding conflicts, than with
healthy interaction. We never used to have conflicts, but I remember
where that got us.....But also I do not want to pick an argument, just
for the sake of having an argument.
I will be leaving next Sunday and he is going to bring me to the
airport, and take care of the cats, part of the time (his own offer). As
I said before, he is generally sweet, but he doesn't even call me honey
!!!! :-)
Dear Jay,
I do hope you are feeling better, and somehow I am glad you are going
to give your h. a change. Him buying ornaments for the tree at least
shows he tries IMO. Don't expect too much, neither from him, nor from
yourself. And as for the therapist, would it be an idea to call her and
see her once without your h., to give you the possibility to talk freely
about your view of the situation? Just to see, if maybe she deserves a
second change too.... Hope your Holidays will be oke and your daughter
will not give you too much trouble.
Love to all the rest of you
AJ
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
And on those yucky days when he makes you feel like you are
overreacting and going crazy..........remember you've got his game
down.......so...
YOU GO GIRL....... YOU GO GIRL........ YOU GO GIRL......... YOU GO
GIRL.......... YOU GO GIRL........... YOU GO GIRL............ Giggle!
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
Well. my goodness. My "go girl" comment was for LW....and
her awesome display of the perceptive powers........:o). When I went to
read the comments, it appears as if there is a new soap opera.....Cat
Boxes are our lives.........any help with who all the characters are??
How about a short story about the last 15 pages?? CatBox
101 soon to be available online as a 3 credit course... LOL.....anyway,
LW....you go girl.....hehehoho
Laura
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
Dear Trubble, B. here.
Yes, I'm your real mommy and you're my long lost real cat!!!! MommyBHoney!!!!
(hug hug, kiss kiss)
But don't think I'm so perfect! I am human, I make mistakes, I can be
angry and mean too. It is very difficult for me to admit to that (I
always need to be such a good girl...), but I am learning to do that. Well
that's OK MommyBHoney. You be as angry and mean as you want. But, not
with your TrubbleHoneyCat. Never, ever!
Dr. Irene, What you tell Steve, that he should learn to accept his
own faults, is true for me too. Me too! (Just ask
your long-lost son - or even my hubbyHoney!)
I see something very interesting: It does not matter many times who
is 'labeled" NDO or NEO. Many times I, who can be called "a co
dependent victim in recovery" (he he he), see I am similar to some
"abuser", and we both need to learn the same thing. YES!
The lessons are the same. The order of the lessons may be different. Like,
sometimes I see myself in Steve, sometimes in Asha. Sometimes what I do
wrong is what Dan does, whereas Lynn in that situation does not act like
me, sometimes the other way round.
I find it really enlightening. It proves that being
"victim" or "abuser" does not mean a different set
of behaviours for each "type". No fixed roles. Yes
and no, depending on the couple.
And BTW, Dr. I, if you don't mind some validation, I did understand
all the points you were trying to make with the reader who created a
monster from you and called it your "ego". Hey,
I never said I minded validation. I just am not terribly swayed (i.e.,
manipulated) by it and I don't need it. I do like it.
Also, about being immature: I would say that whenever I am not with
my SELF, I am immature. Me too. All my
behaviours, feelings, thoughts etc. that need re-programming are those
of a 4-7 year old girl. When I engage I am 5. Oh,
I'm more mature than you are; probably 7-8. When I feel used
(instead of not doing anything that will make me feel used later!) I am
probably 3. When I am reacting violently to a real or perceived hurt I
am no more than 7. Giggle!
So what?
This is where I got stuck back then. It is my job to
"raise" mySELF now and bring all my dysfunctional parts to my
true age. Yep. Everybody owes that much to
themSelf, I think.
I said it before: I want to be a wise person one day. Right now I am
still an immature child much of the time. I think
the Eastern guys had it right. They figure it takes a whole bunch of
life times to become wise...
Well, at least it helps my looks! LOL!!!! Yippee
on your self-confidence! Good think you're catching me on a good day.
Just think, if I were 7 and angry, I'd call you
"narcissistic." Giggle! Thanks B. And thanks especially for
volunteering to be Trubble's mom. He's so happpyyyy!
love and hugs, B.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000
S1
Dear B
I wonder what gets us stuck in those particular young ages in our
emotional reactions. Maybe Dr I can comment. Is it that we didn't get
certain things for our emotional development at those particular times?
I.e., if my reaction is that of a 4 year old to something, does it mean
that after age 4 I didn't receive the stimulus or nurturing I needed to
react effectively in that emotional area? Lots of
different twists in explaining this stuff; you're talking a dissertation
in the split / factioned pseudo-science of psychology - and I think
there is value in just about all the positions. Also, add genetics to
the mix. Social learning theory is my explanation of choice (do a
search!), though development is so multi-faceted that different schools
of thought simply emphasize different aspects. Basically, kids learn
from watching their parents "model" adult behavior. Kids
also respond to parental expectations. They learn according to how they
are treated and the expectations and limits placed on them (limits in
childhood result in self-control in adulthood). Firm but fair limits
help kids feel safe. Kids learn emotional trust when their caretaker is responsive
to their inner state rather than when the caretaker is neglectful
of the child or impinging upon the child (imposing the parent's stuff on
the kid with no regard for whether or not the kid wants it.). Treat a
kid like a shoddy possession or extension of yourself, and you're asking
for trubble. Lay too much adult responsibility on a kid (by not doing
your parental job or being an unpredictable or otherwise un-OK parent),
and the child learns to watch out for you. Stressed kids need to develop
a strategy to help them survive childhood. These strategies in adulthood
are generally non-productive. On the other hand, treat a kid
respectfully, like a valued and separate entity, and you're
maximizing the probability for that kid's emotional success in the adult
world.
An interesting comparison is that the average adult's drawing
capabilities don't go beyond the skills they learn between around 7 and
10 years old. In the book "Drawing on the Right Side of the
Brain" she talks about how that skill (and drawing *is* a skill,
not only an inherent talent) generally stops developing at that age.
This because of various pressures (being teased about "bad"
drawings, pressure to do more "important" things). I just
wonder if it's similar with emotional development - that if we don't
receive the "training" and have appropriate role models we get
stuck in that emotional age for some of our reactions. Yep.
Hello Laura. Haha. Dr. I - maybe the submission title page needs an
update. Explain please. You're always brimming
with good ideas and I'm listening.. And remember - no-one can
"make" you feel anything. ;) Except
maybe a yukky mommy and daddy...
Asha
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Hi Catbox family,
I need some input: (RON is my therapist)
In therapy last night I found some things confusing, and this maybe
why?
My therapist has said all along "Theressa you need to stand up
to your X and let him know that your home is your castle and defend it,
if you want to clean or not clean FINE, if he starts in your home then
its okay for you to say OUT. But don't just remain silent when he is
trying to control you speak up."
I replied: "Okay Ron but Dr Irene says that we shouldn't engage,
we should not need to defend our position as engaging demeans us and we
are worthy no matter what others say." No
Theressa. You are not engaging to defend yourself. or for the sake of
engaging. You are standing up for yourself., defending your space!
Listen to Ron. From what you've posted, it's pretty clear this guy is
sharp as a tack. Also for the record, your therapist always
supercedes what I say. Your therapist knows you best. There is much more
room for miscommunication in this type of forum than in one on one
therapy.
SO this is why I've been getting into such a mess! Confusion!! How
can one stand up for themselves but not engage??? Easy.
You tell the person what you have to say (e.g., "GET OUT!) without
defending yourself or giving too many explanations. ("Why should I
leave?" "Because I asked you to." "You are rude and
cruel." "Yes. Now please leave.")
Finally I want to ask about payoffs, B or Asha maybe you can help
since you two seem further on in recovery than me. I have trouble with
PAYOFFS, okay I'll explain - I will do xxxx for my sister even if it is
inconvenient. WHY? because her husband helps me with the heavy stuff
(the things I find hard) so if I say I can't do xxx then they won't help
me. Further my sister and her husband are not good with money, they
borrow and can't pay back. This is hard since I can't afford to lose
money.
So if I borrow money to my sister I know I won't get it back OKAY,
though her husband helps me with odd jobs how can I manage if they don't
help me, My therapist said I shouldn't do things for pay offs, THOUGH
how can I get help if I need it otherwise?
Thanks Theressa
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Dear Asha, Thanks for reminding me of the 'Right side of the
Brain" book.
I do think that if we have a traumatic event we become emotionally
stuck at that age. I think that my daughter is stuck like that
emotionally as she reacts very like a six year old a lot of the time
which is when she was abused.
Sometimes I forget that there were two adults role modeling in my
family. I am not the only one to get things wrong with her.
Jake's persistent refusal to face reality and crazy making stuff
comes out in my daughter more at present than my emotional overbalance.
It is important to remember they also pick up the good in you. That
parents are not the only role models. Friends can do lots of damage too.
What I don't get is how my son is so very different! Guess we made
les mistakes with him. He is a genuine sweetie and will make some girl
VERY happy someday.
One thing I could say is my daughter was not treated like a shoddy
possession. Not by me. However, Jake has been treating me like
that..........
And my daughter (I am too tired to tell the story has just had me
over a barrel again......I am too mad to tell the story just even madder
with myself for being classically codependent. Having been abused
accused and lied at (at least she was speaking) I then fall into going
out in the night as she is distressed about a drunk driving boyfriend
and wants me to drive her round with car and mobile untile that became
inconvenient and she found another boy to do that for her. This on a day
when the doctor has been out to see me and I am really depressed.
......WHY AM I SUCH AN IDIOT?
Of course the phone was put down this morning. And guess whose son
had to tell whose husband I was in hospital last night....He had locked
himself away and doesn't answer the phone. Locks himself away to sleep
when we are not here!
Ironic. Now they are not keen on having me in hospital......I ended
up here again at 4 in the morning depressed and weepy.....
The doctor gave me some homeopathic stuff to try. Ignatia and Sepia.
The Ignatia is supposed to stop the weepiness and the Sepia? I have
forgotten.....Just you can't drink Coffee and she didn't want me to use
aromatherapy stuff at the same time. Does anyone know about homeopathy?
Seems all my G.P' s practice are keener on it than conventional
medicine.. You can get it on the National Health. I believe Prince
Charles likes s it...
Actually this practice is REALLY unusual. I will let you know if the
stuff works. It had better she had given me a prescription I will have
to pay £18 for. 1 and a half dollars to the pound.
"Jake" is ignoring me. The hospital wanted to contact him
and I am sure they don't believe he really locks himself up at night and
can't hear the phone but that is what he does.
My real problem with the therapist is she asked me to think how I
could give him more space.........He takes it all and gives me nothing.
Yeah I am pretty mad at him. and my daughter . Mostly angry with
myself.
However he did take a booklet on depression to read yesterday. Wow,
it has taken me nine months to get him to do this. Only did it because
he talked to the doctor. Something in here about even the dogs lock the
crumbs,,,,I should be grateful he did it at last as this is a man who is
into serious denial about just about everything.
He is ignoring me as he hasn't got a clue what to do. Also it is
probably logical to ignore me as I am so angry with him........
Dear Me yes please Dr Irene please pass my email address on. I have
longed for someone who could properly identify with how I feel for
years.
Dear Lynn. I do still wear my hippy clothes, Just I don't wear
EXACTLY the same style of clothing I did when I first met Jake at 18.
Dear Jake.
I guess you are ignoring me as it is probably safer to do so at
present.
But I can promise you whatever it is it is not manic depression.
That is you as usual thinking the very worst of me.
Also, when are you going to see a therapist for you. You will say
this is abusing you but I think it is time you sought help for you.
Deliberately withholding information about our daughter???????I think
that is abusive to me and at least I acknowledge my anger and say sorry.
Of course you won't post here. It would mean you have to look at
yourself. It is the only thing i find helpful so I am sure you will say
no on principle.
All I want is for you to say sorry to me..........
I looked at my rings today. All of them memories of lovely times with
you.
If you do happen to look in, please try to read some of my previous
posts......You have made assumptions......
Give me a loan of your claws Trubble. What I need is a scratching
post. Dr Irene is going to say I am outside myself again but actually
what is inside is still an enormous desire to hurt like I have been
hurt. What I need is to sharpen my claws and find a non-human non-animal
tree to vent all I feel on. Better make sure
it's a non-plant tree too...
Jake I use humor to cover the anger. If you had a sense of humor it
would help.
Yes I do want to change them and I know I can only change me........
I wish the healthy human cat son was home to play with. He is the one
person in the family I don't feel angry with. (Yes I know wrong
motivation..........) Got to get rid of the anger for his sake and the
depression.
And for my own. But in that order.
A.J. I think I am going to ask if there is a different family
therapist. I think it is me but I don't trust the one we have.
Dear jay
I think I am in danger from you.
I love you
I will not discuss anything with you except with someone else there
I don't want a divorce. I am not having anything to do with it.
You are controlling me.......
Do you want me to make dinner?
I am not interested in what you do.
I will not get involved in helping you learn to write computer
programs not even a small helping hand although I am a programmer and
taught myself. Not even to get you started.
I don't think you have the aptitude.
Even if there are instructions for kids. You wont be able to do it.
love Jake.
Dear jake
You are controlling me.
(Round and round we go. Dr Irene I am his victim because he will
never ever break the cycle. You are his victim
because you won't break the cycle. Is he enjoying it or
just a lost soul? He is lost, yet there is some
satisfaction in "winning." Remember clawing the tree?
Sorry everyone this is yet another boring vent.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Dan. I just realized. In her original post Lynn calls you smooth,
subtle and condescending. If you were maybe you could explain what goes
on in Jake's mind.
Lynn I mean he still wears the same clothes. I mean I can't wear
quite such wild stuff as I once did. (I liked very wild stuff). I've
never worn a short skirt in all my adult life. Hated having to dress up
in jackets etc. for work...Wish I had a figure for shorts but I really
do look odd in them. (I have looked pregnant whether or not I am and no
matter what I weigh since about 14.) Sort of nice face but pity about
the figure and I get sick of being asked when the baby is due! Sometimes
I am tempted to give a date. Pregnant and the size of me looked like
twins for definite. Even had the midwife concerned. Exercise doesn't
help. My mother is just the same. Only worse. At least she doesn't get
asked when the baby is due any more.
love Jay.
I will get used to calling people Honey in time. Honeys all.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene, Catbox and everybody Honey,
Lynn here, that's LW, Laura. We seemed to have lost some of our aka's.
We need Jay to give you the synopsis. I'd make it sound like Erma
Bombeck in the Cat Box and we do take it more serious than I can make it
sound. Jay is our Cat Box writer.
I wasn't going to rehash my disengage because it was all so silly,
but Theresa, I find it really hard to disengage with Dan. But the words
and everything were worthy of a 1 credit extension class.
Dan started a sarcastic comment to me. He stopped, but I said what?
(If we were healthy he could have just said "sorry" and that
would have been the end. Instead he crossed is arms turned around and
said to me, "well when we've done this before 'you ALWAYS.'"
Then I said lets go home and he said see now you are mad. (I have to bag
he quotes). We get home and he says, Just answer me this. I want to
clear it in my own head. Why did you get mad this time and not before? I
reply that maybe I was angry before. (Meanwhile I turn on the TV to work
on the web. He then tries It's always been funny to you before. I said
OK. It wasn't this time. He is leaving the room between every exchange.
He comes in and tries another one. Well I'm sorry if you feel that way.
Don't feel sorry for how I feel. then I get Fine, I apologized and FINE,
It'll never happen again. I said OK.
Enough, all kitty litter (used). I just agreed with his comments and
got super wrapped up in family trees. After my first few I answered in
one word or less. This went on for over an hour. He would go gather new
ammunition and come back and try again. He finally said he was going to
bed. I said ok. He came back and said he wasn't walking out on the
conversation, he really had to go to bed. OK. In case the third was the
charm he came out again and said goodnight. OK again.
The next night he apologized. We talked and he agreed he was acting
like a twit. "I" was the factor in this one. I truly didn't
care. This isn't/hasn't been easy for me to learn or to do. If he asks I
tell him how I feel and why. This doesn't work.
So Theressa and Jay and AJ, We have to learn it's ok to have a messy
house, pg shape and learn to like ourselves and then when the con is on
we can agree. Theressa, when he says the house is messy, can you just
look around and agree? Shrug your shoulders. Really what's it to him?
This all sounds rude to me, but that has to be my childhood. BTW I love
it about the age levels. And learning to grow up. That's why my
preference is John Bradshaw. He just tells it like it is. He's very
understandable to me.
Is it Jay who asked about Holistic medicine? It would be my choice.
One example. An older friend had emphysema and she started and I think
she got about 10 extra years of life. She was even off of oxygen for a
number of years (during the day). I myself would love a lifetime supply
of valium. Then I'd have no problems (even if I did I wouldn't notice).
But that's not living. It's just being alive with a crutch. Don't get me
wrong. Wouldn't it be silly not to take antibiotics when we need them or
some such. I mean we can either get actively in our own life (just us)
or be drug induced forever. But as for the holistic well being and
eating healthier, etc. I don't think it hurts. PS Jay, I'm glad you
found someone to talk to.
Dear B, you sounded down. AJ, you sound resigned. Asha and Steve,
howdy and Becky and Astrid, long time no hear. I hope you are well.
Dr. Irene, Somewhere way back when and I can tell you the day and
event that our lives changed. I'm not blameless, but some of the events
since then weren't productive to a relationship continuing. Can we flunk
Cat Box 101? I hope not. I'd hate to have to go through this all again.
I want to move on to Real Life 101. And as Dan says to me, "May God
grant me patience, and please hurry!" Somewhere way back when I
drifted out of romantic when his mom called me some names. I asked Dan
what he felt and he didn't reply. Just shrugged it of. Even a,
"Honey, I never felt that way about you," would have helped.
Nothing. I guess I figured he felt that way, too. This has to do with
"romance". Dan is much more romantic in that sense than I am.
I was trying not to be so crude and say, "Honey, lets go to bed and
........." Tonight, not a week from Tuesday. This is my baggage
methinks. Yes LynnHoney. Because you carry around
the loss of romance with you every day. So his mom succeeded after all.
You gave her what she wants. When are you going to take it back?
Let's take a closer look:
Your take: Mom calls you yukky names.
You ask Dan for support of sorts. He remains quiet. You assume he agrees
with mom or something yukky like that.
My take: Mom calls you yukky names. You
ask Dan for support of sorts. He remains quiet. Having a sense of Dan I
think two things are probably going on for him:
1. He is stuck between a rock and a hard place,
and you put him there by asking him for support. Either he
"sides" with you or with mom. Either way, he's stuck with the
guilties. Yet mom induces more guilt than you could dish out in a
lifetime - plus he lives with you. More "good" reasons
to be mad with you..
2. For whatever reason, Dan probably did
something to please you that he didn't really want to do, and, it
never occurred to him to say, "No" since he wasn't even aware
he did something he didn't want to do. Or maybe you recently told him
how he messed something else up again, and he knows you're
right.. Or something like that. Anyway, unbeknownst to Dan, Dan is
mad with you.
So, you ask for support, and Dan says
nothing: thus effectively expressing his momentary anger
passive-aggressively (a sin of omission).
Therefore, assuming he agrees with his mom's
name-calling is incorrect. All these years you've given her your romance
- for nothing!
Assuming Dan's negative emotions typically
operate beneath his awareness, assuming guilt keeps him from not doing
things he doesn't want to do, etc. is characteristic of Dan's style and
is likely a much more correct assumption. Knowing this, you know not to
take his silence personally because it's about him and not you. So you
disengage and not let his silence bother you, keeping your romance on
ice for later.
I rest my case.
Love to you all and great posts. I'll get back to you later.
Love, Lynn
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Dear Jay,
who cares if you look pregnant in shorts? If they are comfortable,
wear them. I really hate this being done to us women, we always heave to
look our best and somehow it does not seem to apply to men. They can
have bellies big enough for twins and no one seems to care. But oh my,
if we have them, without a baby inside!!!! And the stupid shaving your
legs and pulling the hairs away from your upper lip and painting the
rest of your hair.... Where C. comes from, most women even take away
their pubic hair. We have to look sexy and beautiful all the time, no
matter what the cost and how painful it is sometimes. It can really
really get me up the wall that this does not seem to go for men. No
wonder woman tend to be so much more insecure then men and so much more
into people pleasing. I really feel ugly when I have too much hair on my
legs. But hey, it's still Me. But it's hard to not go for the continuous
pressure of advertising and husbands :-). Sorry Jay, I wanted to write
something uplifting and went straight into venting..... Making
a bunch of inaccurate assumptions too. This is not about men and women.
This is not about being done to. It is about what you allow to be done
to yourself.
One more try......
Dear Jay, I am sorry about your H. locking himself in. Talking about
emotional age....I used to hide when I was angry at my mother as a
child. Could not think of any other way. Guess I wanted her to worry and
show she cared. What'd you think, could that be what Jake is doing? Just
tell him to come out of the closet and have a meal. I am sorry to hear
you had to go to the hospital once more. I was wondering, if you feel
like that, would it be at all possible to stay a little while with you
church friends who helped you pray for the house? Just to get a bit of
good vibes to wallow in.... I hope you will be able to find another
therapists that can help you more. I understand it is hard to work with
one that is so biased.
As for the homeopathic medicine, I know a lot of people who use it
for various ailments, including depression, and I think it is overall
beneficial. I also heard really good result from all kinds of herbal
tea's like St John's wort (often mentioned here) and Lemon Balm.
A question, is there any possibility your depression is related to
the time of the year and the shortage of sunlight? For me even going to
a solarium helps, but I hear really great things about light therapy. If
you are more prone to depression in winter then summer, maybe you can
give it a try?
Theressa: <<My therapist said I shouldn't do things for pay
offs, THOUGH how can I get help if I need it otherwise? >>
You'll get help, just because you are a nice person and people like
you and love you. You can do things for other people too, things you
want to do, not things you do just because you need something back. It
does not work that way and will easily leave you filled with resentment
if the people you ‘do things for' don't help you back the way you
expected. I think either you make a clear bargain like: I'll help you
paint the living room this weekend, if you will help me do the garden
next week'. Or you do things for people just because you like doing them
and don't expect anything back. I think both ways are ok.
Hope it helps.
Take care all of you sweeties, honeys and kitties. I love you all.
AJ
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Honey-Steve! Lurking Lawyer here. My words were strong, because I'm
used to dealing with fellow cut-throat, vicious animals we call divorce
attorneys. Nice folks, all, We get along swimmingly. (No shark
analogies, please!) My sharp comments could have been, and were,
misunderstood. In the particular interaction that was described (and not
by you, but someone very angry with you, it seems, I take that into
consideration) regarding the boys and who should carry the dog's leash
on your walk-well, in that particular situation, your conduct was
similar to one making decisions at a kid's gut level, described neatly
by Dr. I-honey. Just that one interaction! Your beautifully worded posts
tell me, no, let me conclude, that you express yourself in a mature
manner rarely achieved by many adults. I did not intend to simply say
"He's all immature, neener, neener." No one is always
anything. At times, everybody is less than fully mature and Buddha-like.
I laughed at myself, wrapping my brother's Christmas present last
night. (Closest in age, we always vied for Mom's attention, and he
ALWAYS won, as it seemed to me at age six). In a fit of frustration over
the ribbon, I tore the entire wrapping paper to bits. And we haven't
lived under the same roof in thirty-five years! I NOTICED what I was
doing and feeling, felt silly and remembered how much I really like my
brother (well, now) and wrapped again, less elaborately. Oh well!
Forgive and forget. I had to forgive myself for returning to age six and
harming his present. So I acted really immature at that one time last
night. I was pretty mature in many other interactions that day, too.
That is what makes up all human, imperfect, and normal. We ALL screw up.
Forgive yourself for not being perfect all the time. Forgive your
partner for not being perfect. Make a list in your mind of the things
you like about her, energy or quick wit or commitment (caveat- do not
include "The way she MAKES me feel...". that is a
"You" thing, not a "her" thing, you chose your own
feelings :) ), then go over the list
when you feel like pushing buttons and doing the old dance.
I must say that you, Steve, and Dan give the most invaluable input
here. And, indeed, I am sure there is more to the dog-leash interaction
that Asha conveyed, and I'm pretty sure you remember it a bit
differently that she. It seemed that the boys just squabble all the time
in "family" situations, because they always have, and that is
what mom and dad model as normal behavior. I'll bet they can cooperate
just fine at school and other venues, because cooperation is modeled and
rewarded there. The trick is to manipulate them both into cooperating in
the presence of mom and/or dad. And there's a loaded word - manipulate.
But we all try to manipulate and persuade others, consciously or
otherwise. It's a lawyer's job to persuade. That is manipulation. A
preacher also persuades, a teacher, and even- possibly- Dr. I- honey! Who
me? Must be the cat.
I'm glad to read your input here, I enjoy reading your posts. I
benefit by relating Asha's stories with yours, and try to conclude the
"truth" that goes like a thread between the two. Truth, like
justice, is subjective, and what is true, or just, for one person may
not be at all true or just to another. And, what does it matter if I am
just a jerk and think your are simply all immature, all the time? I'd be
flat wrong, and stupid, and why should you care about what a flat wrong,
stupid person thinks? He was mad with me since I
said he was "immature" rather than practicing what I preach
and talking about about a display of immature behavior. What
may happen is that people jump to the wrong conclusions with partial
information, without the whole story. People can be wrong in their
conclusions. Don't get mad about what other people are believing. Even
me! You can't control other's thoughts, anyway. You can only
control your own thoughts. You make your reality, so make it a nice one
where people are normal and make mistakes. Don't live in a world where
people have power over you with their emotions, and you believe that are
motivated solely by "what will this do to Steve?". As Dad
always said, "Consider the source". Can you forgive my
thoughtless words? And mine.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Hi Cat Box, B. here,
Lynn, I was not down, quite the contrary, I was feeling humorous.
Jay, you are not an "idiot", you are just human, so you are
not perfect. I like reading the "Jake" lines you write for
him, because it helps you see him in a less demonic way. Yes.
However, the problem with that is too much focus on him Yes!
: you want his validation, you want him to do this and that, to behave
in a way you want, etc. Dr. I and others already told you that. Why not
try focusing instead on questions such as: What do I, Jay, want? How do
I envision my life? What would make me happy, that I can do for myself?
Or, when someone does something you don't like, sit and think: what did
I not like about it? Why? What are my feelings? Where do they come from?
Can I change my feelings about that something? Etc. Theressa, I agree
with what AJ said, concerning payoffs. You already sound angry about the
fact that they don't pay back what you loan them. So I guess you pay for
their services! I also hear what you say about them: that if you will
refuse to do something you do not want to do (set a boundary), that is,
if you will refuse to sacrifice again for her - they will "get back
at you" or "punish you" for that, by refusing to do what
you request - since they, too, so you hint, sacrifice for YOU (do things
they don't want to do, just because they want to keep on using you).
That is totally unhealthy, especially for you. Yep.
You need to learn right now to set boundaries, instead of sacrificing
yourself, fearing others' disapproval etc. When you let yourself be
USED, you feel bad. You feel violated. Your Self loses, your integrity
suffers. You have to listen carefully to your body whenever someone asks
you to do anything for them. Your sister wants money from you and you
don't want to give her because she does not return it? Say sorry, I
can't loan any money right now. Don't explain at all. If they say
"but we need it", you say, sorry, I have no money to lend
right now. Don't tell them it's because they never give it back and
you're not rich. Just say, sorry, I can't. They'll either figure it out
or not. You do not owe them any explanations. Yeah.
Be confident in your decision. Agree only to those things that
are really OK with you, otherwise you'll just be angry with her. When
you need something from her, ask her. She has the right to say NO too.
You have nothing to lose, they might say yes. If they say "no,
because you didn't do xxxx for us when we asked you to", you will
say, "each person has a right to say yes or no to a request. I
asked for your help, but I don't want you to sacrifice for me". And
leave it. I am sure you have many talents. Why not put an ad up at the
neighborhood or at a local newspaper: "Need help with heavy and
handyman jobs, can do yyyyy in return"? Maybe others will give you
more ideas. But stop selling yourself out. You suffer from it. Love, B.
P.S. lots of Salmon and caresses for Trubble! Hello
RealMommyBHoney. I love you. You are the bestest! You are so smart and
you take good care of *Me* Your RealSonCanTrubbleHoney
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000
S1
Hi guys,
Lynn back. One of those lazy days and I can't seem to get motivated,
so I'm going to quit trying. I just talked to my very fat heavy PG
daughter and this is for you Jay. Simply tell everyone you just had your
baby and aren't back to your pre-weight. Then when they ask how old your
baby is, tell them 17. hehehe heheheh
The leg shaving is a biggi
