Comments for Catbox 12

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 19, 2000

S1

Dear Asha, Yeah the hard work we are doing won't go to waste. You seem a lot further on in the journey than me. Keep with your own feelings. I wish I could get there. I think I still want to create change in the other person too much at present.

I guess with the dog and everything else it is about wanting to work out a compromise because its what you want for you and not in order to keep someone else happy at your own expense. But if keeping them happy is what you decide you want for you then that is o.k. I think. I am not feeling too clear about all this codependency stuff at the moment.

I haven't managed to start my course yet. I tried today but it just felt like I needed to feel a little more healed first.

Your and Steve's political differences remind me of my and my husband's religious differences. I believe in God and Jesus and he believes in nothing. We argued for years. But one area we did start to agree on was that we couldn't argue about religion. There was no point anyway as neither of us was going to change the others views. It took us about 5 years to work out this just was a subject on which we had to agree to differ. But on the other hand what Steve said although I am not sure what it means as we don't have the terms 'redneck and pinko' does sound offensive not just to you but to anyone.

I wish that I knew the answer to whether someone in your situation should stay close to the kids. Gut reaction is not to get too close in that situation unless it really is going to be a continuing relationship or you are just one more person who lets them down?

These are just my thoughts not trying to tell you what to do.

Sending good thoughts and peaceful vibes etc. to you too. And prayers

I actually went to a sort of church meeting tonight, In a cafe and mostly friends playing the guitar. I was totally gobsmacked when one of the guys there said he knew what codependency was. That is the first English person apart from a counselor who has among close friends. It seemed a sort of relief to talk to someone face to face who wasn't a professional and didn't dismiss what I was saying.

He was so great about my daughter too. Made me feel hopeful. He and his wife do have contact with her and he knows that she is out of line at present. The most healing thing in the world is to have someone acknowledge your pain. My daughter accepted a gift from me through my husband today so I hope we will have a thaw soon. Please God!

And no Sunday argument! If only it could always be like this except now I get the oven cleaned for me and the hoovering done....I wish I knew what that was all about. Inspired today I started to dust and that seemed well received so I am going to take it as a genuine desire to be helpful even if it isn't. I shall just determinedly misunderstand the whole thing! Somewhere today I realized that it was a matter of thinking through to what the most likely answer I will get, positive or negative before I open my mouth but I shouldn't have to live like this.

Never mind. The depression and I fought a battle and I won! Feeling normal and sane again.

Lynn now i am calling the book controlled by laundry and cleaning the oven.

Dan, when you came back you started to do lots of helpful things. What would you say is really behind all my husband's housecleaning? Or Steve. I just wondered what a guy would think.

Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 20, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and all of the Cat box,

Lynn here. Did you think I moved away? Nope. Just been busy. Tried to do the hoovering and broke the vacuum. Dan did get my bathtub installed and WOW! It's great. The first real soak I've had in years. That certainly makes life better. The comfort is super. The old tubs are square and to lounge one needed a pillow. Plastic ones didn't last, so I started using zip lock freezer bag to cushion my head. It's nice to have a slope and a tub deep enough to cover my body.

Next stage of Heaven. We took out all the Christmas stuff to try and make up a box for a couple who needed tree trimmings. I collect ornaments. Preferably old hand made. Like the kind the kids made in school. A special treat is when they are autographed. Well, I managed to pack 4 "bushel" boxes and didn't make much of a dent. It's been a good year for ornaments. 2 Auctions and friends mother died and he gave me all of her stuff. I've spent days going through them. Bliss.

Dan tried to post last night and I came in and rudely interrupted him. He accidentally hit reset and there it went....... I was making some dog biscuit cookies and the dog ate them. Paint and fake snow and all. I fed her a couple of tums. She is fine.

I got a phone call the other night from an old friend of mine I hadn't heard from in 8 or 9 years. Isn't it funny? You can pick up the conversation where you left off. We hope to meet her for a few minutes after Thanksgiving. We're going Thursday and won't be back until Sunday.

Welcome Anne. Theressa, yes you and I do do letters. I still enjoy writing to people, too. AJ, it sounds like things are good with you. Becky. Things are sounding better with you. Asha, hello and same to Steve if you are out there somewhere. Jay, get writing. There has to be a publisher somewhere. Good luck. B, Thanks. I think I got there. Astrid, how are ya?

Dr. Irene, you asked me way back.... I just read it yesterday .... why I cared so much. I never took our relationship lightly. I tried to work on it and gave my best, because I know what the rewards can be. I felt like the more I tried though, the more Dan fought me. Like if I was right, he was wrong. It didn't start working until I gave up caring what the outcome was/is. Right. 

It really isn't a matter of life and death that we make "a go of it." If he couldn't, well I had to know that I gave my all. I think I did and then decided the rest is up to him. Either he comes on this journey to old age with or without me. Que Sera Sera. Now he is.

I even got mad at LOCO last night and the guy tried to defend him. I caught LOCO red handed, actually black pawed as he was digging up a plant in my bathroom. Dan jumped in and said it couldn't be LOCO as he was with Dan. I just caught the stinker and yelled at him and he ran to Daddy. Then I bit Dan's head off! One sentence, but... Giggle! (Dan: What's going on with you buddy?)

The mice have moved somewhere. Good! I don't need little gourmet critters delivered to me. We have a neighbor trapping stray (and any) cats in those spring traps. Dan called the cops today, but I've sent bad vibes his direction. The creep! Once, just once in my life I want to set a bear trap and catch one of those sob's and let them set out all night hurt and captured and don't get me going. I could do criminal acts very easy in a case like this.

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL of you. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and even those that don't celebrate the Holiday. Stuffed roasted trout for Trubble and my best to all of you.

Love and Prayers and pleasant days ahead,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 20, 2000

S1

Anybody out there? Well, I haven't been. First time I'm able to get on site is today, the 24th - and I don't know how long it will last. Big time problems with "connectivity" as Microsoft puts it. No back up computer either. But, there is a new one on order for early December... Meanwhile....

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 20, 2000

S1

Asha here. Hello to all who are able to find this new link. I thought it was awfully silent here, but it looks like the link from Dr. I's main page goes to catboxes 11 and so that's why it looked like no-one was responding. Thus my above post. It's fixed now.

I could really use some more feedback on the dog, political, and kids stuff that I mentioned in catbox 11 and how healthy couples deal with this sort of thing. Comments anyone? Healthy couples respect each other's differences, don't impose them on each other, each feels free to think what they think. Neither person feels less "loved" for not "agreeing." There is no intimidation, no being "punished," etc. for disagreement. Healthy couples can poke fun at the differences, but there is no malice.

Jay - I like what you said about working out a compromise because it is what you want for you and not in order to keep someone else happy at your own expense. It's tricky because I'm sure even really healthy couples have areas where compromise isn't simple. But then I really believe also that if a couple is motivated to work things out they'll find some sort of creative solution. Maybe pinpointing the source of the problem i.e. what is it that *really* bothers you about the dog in the bedroom - dog hair, lack of privacy etc. and working on the specifics would maybe help. As for political/religious stuff, I know you can't change people so maybe it's a matter of how these beliefs translate to real life, and whether your partner's behaviors in these realms encroach on boundaries you have for yourself. For myself, I want to view politics with a certain "lightness" (as opposed to heaviness) and not get too threatened or over concerned about it. If there is an issue I can do something about, then *do* something about it, but don't get wrapped up in those issues I have no control over. I would like to be able to see humour in these issues, that's why Steve's reaction seemed so heavy and extreme to me. I don't know if this is a "boundary" for me, but it definitely had a "yuck" feeling to me.

Lynn

I had to mention that when Steve lived here I had mice for a short time and we managed to catch them (cat caught one and we grabbed it - the rest were caught in live traps) and drove them out to the woods in tall buckets. :) I left a stash of peanuts for one. I did end up with a serious problem with them once in another home and had to bring a pest control guy in. He left out poison, which was sad, but I didn't know what else I could do at that point. He also left something I thought was really inhumane - sort of a sticky paper that they get stuck on and die a slow death. I immediately removed all these once the guy left. I haven't had that sort of problem here though.

Take care all - talk to you soon

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 20, 2000

S1

Dear Asha

I don't know what happened today but the catbox is slow! I tried to write earlier but then my husband came in and the whole thing got abandoned.

I wish I had more to say about your situation. my mind is a bit slow from overuse at present. I spent a lot of today creating my own website. Well my 13 year old son designed it for me. He understands these things I don't.

My husband who actually works for the firm who write the program we are using and helped design the thing refused to even give a small bit of advice saying he wouldn't be involved.

I can't work out if it was pure meanness of just sick of his job! It could be he wants me to feel it is all mine and my son's effort and make me read the instruction manual.

Sometimes I don't know if I am justifying unreasonable behaviour or acting unreasonably!

I just wondered if the catbox is quiet because it is Thanksgiving on Thursday? Probably. How do you in the US cope with Thanksgiving and Christmas? I can barely cope with Christmas. Good question.

I wish I knew what to think about my daughter. She did ring today to say did I know of any reason why she might faint in the bank! Then she said she didn't want a conversation. So I just gave her the information that she should check for anemia and checked she had seen the doctor and said 'goodbye.'

Anyway, I am leaving the mobile on in case it is a thaw. She accepted some nail files for her beauty therapy course from me via my husband yesterday. So maybe there is a thaw.

I spent some of today on my codependency correspondence course. Trying to define co dependent and boy is it hard to do!

Lynn, I have started the book. I am calling it Love and the Laundry.

I feel strong again. I think for me the answer is I can't give up the stupid tablets. I seem to get worse when I try to do so. I am starting to do things again. Feeling like going out and starting to feel like I can do things properly. Like my mind works properly again. I think Dr Irene if you still look in your putting my poem up on your site helped a lot. I have to accept that as something that can't be validated by my husband. :) Not only that, I am honored!  It had to be by me and for me. The thing is I liked the poem enough to feel safe putting it in public without reference to anyone so the validation was initially from within. Other people liking it was a bonus. I didn't need that to feel good about it but then I got outside validation too.

So I think I may be wrong to ask my husband's help with the website. It just gives him another "helpless female' message. Just figure out how to do it yourself. (I even do my husband's site!)

Why do I do that to myself. I know if I need help he won't ever give it so why do I keep on asking?

It would be lovely to wake up whole and healthy and a recovered codependent. I suppose it must happen somehow if we work at it.

love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 20, 2000

S1

Hi all. Steve here. I've been busy. Very.

I've read what Asha posted, and as usual, I feel it was incomplete and very "personalized". Dr Irene may want to consider (with greater weight) the fact that when she responds to these posts, she is not responding to "reality", but to one person's "perception of reality". Nuff said on that. Why keep bringing that stuff up Steve? You think I don't know that?

Asha: "It must be so confusing to them. I don't know what would even be appropriate to tell them since things are so on and off right now, and I don't want to say anything that comes off as negative about their dad."

This concerns me. Now I need to think about the whole thing in a new light. I've completely forgotten about my own boundaries. I'm losing trust in Asha. Everyday, a little bit more. No Steve. You just don't like what she feels. You need to respect her thoughts and feelings, like them, agree with them, or not. And stop reacting so much to her thoughts and feelings. Be your own person and bounce less off her!

Next topic:

I know, that even though you all think this place is anonymous, it's actually not - believe me, I used to work at an Internet Service Provider.

And since Asha is posting things, whether truth or opinion, that sometimes I feel are inappropriate - i.e. beyond my boundaries - I will have to distance myself from her and understand that there is no privacy in our relationship. Looking for excuses to back off Steve? You don't need any. You can back off any time and for no reason.

Asha has already revealed who I am and who she is to the good Dr so I don't believe she feels any desire to respect my wishes on this. And that info stays with me, same as the info in my practice.. 

This is a boundary for me. I want someone who is willing to share a safe sanctuary with me at times. Asha cannot do this. She finds it impossible to respect my needs in this area. I think it's really reached the end of it's wick. You are just looking for "reasons" to back off. Seek and ye shall find.

I really love Asha, but I can't keep my eyes half-closed anymore. And I'm certainly not going to subject my kids to someone who may say something damaging to them about their dad. They've had enough of that from the X (who I might add at this time is becoming much much nicer to me. She appears to have had a revelation.) She loves you Steve. Stop trying so hard to look so good that the truth makes you paranoid. Stop trying to convince yourself and everybody else that you are perfect. It is OK to be human, have faults, etc. You can't have a relationship if you don't first accept all the (normal) imperfections of the self!

Take care all. Keep up the good work.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Steve

"I used to think my X had big problems with anger. Now her problems seem very small compared to what I see in AK/asha."

"They've had enough of that from the X (who I might add at this time is becoming much much nicer to me. She appears to have had a revelation.)"

Okay - so the theme repeats itself here. Is this designed to provoke, or are you really just feeling like you'd be better off with your x?

Either way, I'd prefer you don't play games with me.

"It must be so confusing to them. I don't know what would even be appropriate to tell them since things are so on and off right now, and I don't want to say anything that comes off as negative about their dad."

Steve - *read* this. I *don't* want to say anything that *comes off* as negative. You read something else into this, but not what I actually meant.

And you're right I won't share your "safe sanctuary" which keeps denial and unhealthy behavior secret. That isn't "safe" for me.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Steve here again.

About the political thing Asha mentioned...

Let me give you the history.

On the weekend with my kids, we went to Asha's parents for dinner. It was great. Although...I noted where Asha attempted to draw me into a political debate by mentioning a derogatory newspaper article about what she assumes is my preferred party. Steve, why are you making politics so important! I know, for example, that Bush or Gore don't give a hoot about me. I certainly wouldn't let them become any bigger in my life. Why are you?

I didn't bite. That was her shot number 1. So what?

When we got home after the weekend, while at her house, she started in again about my "preferred" political party.

Again, I didn't bite. Almost though, I was a little off-guard at first. I noted this as shot number 2. Seek and ye shall find.

Then, the email. Shot number 3, right over the bow. Oh please. She's probably mad at you for your pulling away or something. So what? So, she threw a shot. Let it be. Let her. Don't make it more than it is. It will pass. You have feelings, can't she? 

By this time I knew what was going on. She was looking for my buttons. And I'm sure you helped her by presenting them in full dress, saluting her. She was getting desperate because she couldn't find them. What are you kidding? You sound like one huge, shiny button! So the topic-specific email. Again I didn't bite. Instead of responding by "button-proxy", I simply emailed a humorous reply. Very light and obviously tongue-in-cheek.

She got very mad at this. Why? Here's what I think. I think the humorous email was confirmation to her that my buttons were not where she thought they were anymore. You are an expert at twisting stuff when you feel emotionally unsupported. (By the way, it's OK to let your partner be unsupportive. Plus, that's the best and fastest way to turn it around.)

When I finally got through to her on the phone (she was refusing to answer my calls - she has call display), she said she found the email offensive, and I said "It was meant to be funny. But I'm not going to change your 'mind-made-up'." But it wasn't funny. It's become cryptic communication. And she takes you too seriously too.

And I left her to her own choices. That was a good thing I believe. Yes.

So she is mad at me because I didn't "dance the dance". She'll never admit though. She likely still believes I'm the only one with problems. The problems are different. She gets too hung up on appeasing you at her own expense. You get paranoid when she doesn't, inventing how she is "against" you. 

Things are getting clearer. When you can see your own follies, the follies of others become clearer also. No Steve. Asha just has to do what is right for her, despite you. You need to accept what she does without interpreting her acts as "against you." You two are fully back in the CatBox.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Asha (to Steve): "And you're right I won't share your "safe sanctuary" which keeps denial and unhealthy behavior secret. That isn't "safe" for me."

You KNOW that's NOT what I meant. Why do you say such things? Actually, never mind. I know why.

Steve  Ugh to both of you. Throwing litter around. Yuk.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Hi guys, Lynn here. Steve, Steve, Steve. Hello there. Glad to hear from you. I have a major question for all and then I'll get back to you.

Trubble, this is for you. Send our friends and helpers because need opinions and input. Hi RealMommy. Problem is FakeMommy's been having mega computer problems. She hopes she'll be able to "save" this page! Very unreliable lately...

I mentioned that we have a neighbor live trapping cats with the spring traps. Short of buying a shotgun and or trapping him testicles in a bear trap I need some suggestions. Dan called the cops and one is a friend and he called back. OK, we have the guy watched and not necessarily under control (we need a dead or wounded cat and a trap to nail him). What we truly need in this county is a Humane Society. SOS SOS and SOS. Maybe it's time I got this lazy behind to work. How and where do I go to get this started???? What I need is a large place, rules, regulations and a whole bunch of stuff (like money). There has to be somewhere to go and start this up.

My aim and goal: One where one doesn't have to put the animals asleep. Dan suggested going to the Town Council meeting. We know the mayor and the police man who knows there is an animal problem in town.

Does anyone have a plan B or an extra $200,000.00 ?? If not cash I would appreciate suggestions.

OK Steve, now that I have my priorities in order. How are you? When we started posting I was worried about being anonymous. Mostly because of Dan's job and secondly from my kids. don't want them to know EVERY detail of their mother's life. After I got to thinking about it I figured that anyone who figured out it was us must be having at least as many problems as us or they wouldn't find us at Dr. Irene's. My next thought was the ones who thought they didn't have problems. To me, they are the ones who REALLY have problems. Working out our relationships should not be counted against us. This should go high on the list as a positive.

Glad to hear from you and Steve, we started on the Couples Book, Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix, tonight. At Dan's suggestion. Had a bit of one today. I asked him to put a 2 X 4 in the window in my bathroom (we are replacing them and this one is smaller than the hole). Translate: Take the window out. Here we go again was my first thought. Second thought, since you have the window out you may as well wash it! I just ignored him. He said he didn't understand me. I refrained from saying how tough is it to understand, "put a 2 X 4 in the corner please" ??? We talked about communicating tonight and agreed that is the priority we need to work on. Hello How are you and what do you want for dinner tonight do not constitute communication on a deep level. And my biggest complaint is Dan's translation of what I said vs. what he thinks I meant when I said it. And, to take your comments with a grain of salt. Not to feel pressured to "fix" everything. I think that's why he feels secretly angry and overwhelmed, so he does nothing or acts out passive aggressively.

OK, we have that bridge to go over. Now Jay, about your daughter. Dan's daughter used to call and ask what was wrong with her. Like did we think she needed her gall bladder removed or could it be a kidney infection? She went through some rough times and didn't take her medication, would go to a therapist and sit and answer in monosyllables (so she told me). Thought another one would be better for her but wouldn't go and was plum crazy for a while, Smarty me and Dan, too, know a lot of what is wrong with her but couldn't "fix" it. It took her a long time to get professional help and stick with it. She has been diagnosed as bi-polar, but..... Sometimes I think she just needs a life of her own without outside (family) influences. And the strength to stand on her own two feet. She finally did make a constructive move and moved away from a lot of the crazy making influences and seems to be doing much better.

Hi Asha, how are you. We're over here at 12 and hiding from you. We got most of my bathroom done. Dan even tried out the new tub. I painted up a storm, too. Raspberry. Bright raspberry. It's loud enough to keep Trubble awake. And Christmas lights around the edges, just because. I need them around the canopy on the bed now. hehehe ^_^

Hi the rest of you. Things are pretty good around here. We're going to have Thanksgiving dinner at my sisters and brother in laws cabin and the next night going to a fancy restaurant for another one and with luck will get in Chinese food (great restaurant) before we come home. We are picking up a dog (Humane Society) for my son and his family and sending him back with my other son and his family. This stuff is normal to me. He found the breed he wants there so we said OK.

My dad is real anxious to see us. 3 days. I'm real anxious to see how well I handle this. If I come home screeching, well, that's normal, too.

And for you guys with out a Thanksgiving, we here usually share both with the out of towners and then we did Thanksgiving here and then went to another of Dan's family for Christmas. The 3rd around here did Easter dinner so we worked it out quite well. We threw a monkey wrench into the works this year as we are ha Thanksgiving with my dad and sister and families. No plans for Christmas, but I'm always ready for the glitz and sequins and lights. I hate the commercial garbage, so we tend to find the funniest or funnest thrift store memorabilia and share with our loved ones.

OK Theressa, one from you and we ought to be on 13. My lucky number. And speaking of lucky or weird or what. I had a ghost visit tonight. I was cooking dinner and Dan was behind me. I turned to ask what he wanted and he was gone. In fact Dan never was. He was in the back of the house and said it wasn't him. Must have been Trubble.

Well Guys, Love to all and Love in the Laundry Room sounds like it might make a good "Soap Opera"

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Wow - Asha here - no anger, just perplexity.

"Shots 1 and 2" were never intended as "shots". In fact I don't even know what you are referring to Steve. I probably did voice my opinion on political things, but it was certainly never intended to push a button of yours. The last "shot" - emailing you a humorous political article - I thought the article was really funny, and honestly thought you would too. Especially since you had showed me a funny satirical article about the party I sort of support, and *I* found it funny, I just thought you would feel the same.

What happens when your mate thinks you are purposely pushing a button, and you are sincerely *not*? How can you let them know your honest thoughts and intentions? None of this had anything to do with Steve's "buttons". I don't remember the first two "shots" that he was speaking of because I was probably just expressing my opinion, nothing at all to do with Steve's buttons. 

This is a big misinterpretation. Why would I *want* to push your buttons Steve? What good would it do me? Honestly? Steve thinks you are pushing buttons when you are not or when you are getting a point across with humor or when you are mildly annoyed and giving it to him. He doesn't realize that none of this is "wrong," even the last one. You are not perfect Asha. You get angry and will get passive aggressive too from time to time. No matter. It's Steve's job to understand all that and let it ride for whatever reason. When he doesn't, he shoots himself in the foot because he creates problems. Even if you were angry, it is short-lived. If he respected your right to feel how you feel, he wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Problem with Steve is he needs you to affirm him at all times (lest he misinterpret something) out of his own insecurities, which, by the way, have no basis in reality. Steve needs to look at his insecurities, because anything "wrong" with him is OK. Nobody is perfect. Steve needs to stop protecting his imperfections. Only Steve can do it, and, even though he'll be real glad he did, it feels somehow dangerous to do it when you haven't done it. That's why he's so defensive.

It just seems that when I speak freely (without the "Steve-filter") you often feel I am purposely pushing your buttons. I'm just plain *not*, but if I try to control my speech so as to *not* push your buttons, then I give up my right to free speech and this feels just plain yukky. Right. Steve, please, look at your tendency to interpret other people's comments as against you simply because they don't affirm your position. You hurt yourself with this stuff. Not to mention how much energy you waste protecting something that does not need protection!

I'm not mad at you at all because you "didn't dance the dance". I was upset because something I felt we could both laugh at was treated so heavily. For some reason that makes me really uneasy.

We do have very different perceptions of reality lately.

Steve I don't think you are the only one with the problems. I have problems too. I just can't admit to problems I don't believe I have, like intentionally pushing your buttons. I didn't do this, so admitting to it would be lying. Yes I have my follies, but I don't think you are seeing them clearly.

What do you really mean by "safe sanctuary"? Honestly? (not angry here, just curious)

I also still hope to hear an honest answer about whether your intention is to provoke me with comparisons to your x, or are you really just feeling like you'd be better off with her? Stop with the insecurities Asha. Steve loves you. If he is feeling anything towards the ex these days, it is because he is angry with you. Or is there some other reason it's important to mention this?

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Asha said: "I don't remember the first two "shots".

This worries me. If you can't remember them, even after I described them, then your memory is HIGHLY selective. This was just last weekend Asha. What are you really saying here? Are you sure it isn't some kind of denial mode? Why do I remember perfectly clear as day and you can't? Actually...re-reading your post...

""Shots 1 and 2" were never intended as "shots". In fact I don't even know what you are referring to Steve. "

...I see that FIRST - you never intended them as shots, and THEN they never really existed in the first place. Interesting. Oh boy... We're off in never never land Steve.

Asha said: "It just seems that when I speak freely (without the "Steve-filter") you often feel I am purposely pushing your buttons. I'm just plain *not*, but if I try to control my speech so as to *not* push your buttons, then I give up my right to free speech and this feels just plain yukky. "

I disagree. You are pushing my buttons when you are pushing my buttons. Agreed. So Steve, if you don't want your buttons pushed, it's your job to fix them. This does not mean avoid them or convince other people to tiptoe around them, because they can't do this indefinitely no matter how they try. It means FIX them as in work them out internally. There is nothing wrong with you Steve other than your fear of accepting that you are a perfectly imperfect human. You're so-called "steve-filter" is your business. I'm not biting on that one either. As for your abdication of your right to free-speech - don't shift that on me. You choose your mode of speech, not me.

Asha: "Why would I *want* to push your buttons Steve? What good would it do me? Honestly?"

Why don't you tell me? What good does it do? Just makes me more distant, maybe that's what you really want??

Asha: "What do you really mean by "safe sanctuary"? Honestly? (not angry here, just curious)"

I cannot respond to a rhetorical question. I'm not interested in these games Asha. 

Asha: "I also still hope to hear an honest answer about whether your intention is to provoke me with comparisons to your x, or are you really just feeling like you'd be better off with her? Or is there some other reason it's important to mention this? "

I did not compare you. I was giving an update to everyone here, that there was a very positive development for myself and my children, and for my X herself. Letting go of her anger and putting her kids first is a major accomplishment from where she was 6 months ago. To me, it is important. To you, probably not.

I do not compare whether I'd be better off with her or you. You both are free to do whatever you wish. I too am free. I want to smell a whole bunch of roses, now that I've smelled some coffee and burnt toast.

Steve  Steve: You are the creator or your own roses or burnt toast. I know the stuff I've said to you will not be easily accepted. Please, please, please, look at it. For nobody's sake but Steve's!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Another comment about my situation.

I realize that I compromised myself in a negative way my first 3 years with Steve, when he went every other weekend to his ex's hometown to see the kids. He stayed with friends, visited with family, but I was rarely invited. I mentioned this before on the board. It's a touchy issue for both me and Steve. You should have been invited, not each time, but at least from time to time. If the invitation was not forthcoming, it was your job to back away from a man who shut you out of his life with his children.

I guess in the back of my mind I always felt he protected his ex from me, and wasn't sure of the motive. But maybe it was to keep a door open. Just in case... Stop with the insecurities. Even if they are true. You don't know that. Bottom line: you didn't get the opportunity to get to know his kids and for them to know you. You guys were married for Pete's sake!

I don't blame Steve for this because it was me that was silly enough to live this way. Good. In fact at one time his X was out of town and she asked him to house-sit. I could not understand why he wouldn't bring the kids here (after all we lived together!). I did not agree with his decision to stay at her place (obviously without me, maybe it would have been different if we were both invited), but again I wasn't strong enough to set a boundary. So maybe subconsciously, I created an atmosphere that was conducive to keeping Steve's X on the side lines - which wasn't fair to any of us. Right now I'm thinking that I was incredibly naive. Yep. Destructive for you.

The same thing with Steve's parents. I was kept at a certain distance from them. No. You let yourself be kept at a certain distance. When I asked Steve if he was doing this to protect his X he would get very defensive. Of course! Because the insecurity with the ex is of your making. Real or not real. She knew them for many years and I would never have wanted my presence to destroy her closeness with his family. But the fact that I was kept at a safe distance from them was never explained properly. Boy do I feel like a dummy. I think love *is* blind. And probably deaf, and dumb too.

Sorry for sounding negative. Guess I'm showing my buttons. I don't think I'm engaging. (not on purpose anyway) Just angry at myself for my naivety. OK.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Asha: "I guess in the back of my mind I always felt he protected his ex from me, and wasn't sure of the motive. But maybe it was to keep a door open. Just in case... "

You are so wrong. I'm with you on this Steve.  

I already posted a long expletive on this. Maybe you could find it. Anyway, that door has ALWAYS been open - not because I left it open. You know that. You know she wanted me back for a long time, and maybe she still does. But that's not the issue here. Perhaps I could walk through that door - or any new previously-unexplored door for that matter - anytime . But would I? No. When you and I are fully dissolved, I will consider new doors. But not the old ones. I've been there. I know what's inside. Great! Now please, look at what I've said to you so you can stop destroying the love in your life!

Just like you know the MJ door is closed forever. Or maybe you don't and that's why you don't believe me? Huh? Whatever...

Anyway, it likely doesn't matter anymore what either one of us believes. I'm beat.

Time to live. Yeah, but don't repeat the same old, same old. Asha has to deal with her insecurities. You have to let her be, stop protecting your ego and creating paranoid stuff that gives you the excuse to push the person you love away.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Steve

Regardless of whether we remain together as a couple or go our separate ways, I do want to say that I sincerely wish you healing, enlightenment, love, trust, security and strength (and the same for me).

Obviously I haven't been perfect along the way. I don't think any human is. It is our mistakes that help us grow.

I don't wish to trick you, hurt you or deceive you.

Truth is truth. What I know to be true inside is true. It does me no good to deceive myself. When I don't deceive myself, I can't deceive you. This is my path now.

This is not my ego talking, though I reacted to the issues around your X purely with ego. What I really wish for is healing for all. For her, for you, for the kids and for me. And for everybody at the catbox.

I think you are a good person, and I do want you to smell the roses.

I hope that no-one has been offended by the nature of mine or Steve's posts. I know it probably looks melodramatic, but it feels safer to me here than private email. I tend to start doubting my perceptions when I communicate privately with Steve, though I am getting better about this.

Thanks for allowing us this space.

love Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the Cat Box Family,

Asha,

I only have this to say about the "Pinko" business. Look at our Presidential election fiasco in Florida. Now if that isn't a joke, what is? What a joke is right! I think that if one shares some satirical essays or drawings about a certain political party or belief, that person should also have the good grace to laugh when this sort of thing is directed at their political beliefs. Yes Dan. It's just politics...

As for the dog situation, I think that Steve should accept that the dog was part of your life before he and that you both have to work out a compromise which will involve the three of you. Yeah...

Steve,

I realize that I have been away for awhile, and here I am offering what seems to be one sided advice. I happen to think that whatever beliefs one has, politically, religiously (sp) or whatever, one must accept that others have different point of views and if we offer ours we should listen to theirs. Case in point, down here in the US, we have a certain religion which sends out missionaries to show you the way. A couple of these people arrived at a friend's house, he let them in, and half way through their talk, he asked for their addresses as he would like to visit them and give them his religions point of view. They left in a hurry. Giggle!

I laugh at all the hoopla given to the two major parties and their Florida is mine rhetoric. One says that the other should concede because he has the most votes there, I think that since one who received the most popular votes the other should concede. Lynn says, that they both should serve on alternate days. Better yet I get to be President as we have enough Christmas ornaments to decorate the White House tree without having to have any more made for it. Trubble likes that. Then, he says, he can come hang out at the White House! Hey, what the heck, I'll come along too!

Jay

I really can't offer any clue about your H's house cleaning as there could be a miriad of reasons for it. I posted earlier how my mother would get her house cleaned.

As for the chores which I'm doing, most of it is stuff that I had let go when I went out of town.

Astrid,

Remember that a Chameleon changes to suit its environment but it still is the same lizard. If L is suddenly changing there maybe reasons which you are unaware of, or you may know what they are and he is giving a different reason.

Dear Dr Irene,

I am not sure why my insurance won't pay for the new therapist and I really don't care. I like the lady and I'm going to go to her at least until I feel that she isn't helping me or until I get a better understanding about myself. Cool! I know that I don't care for her attitude about the board, and I owe you a lot for your help and insight. I may have to do some more soul searching on whether or not to visit this site after our session Wed. My offer: you post and I give you no advice. Just cute comments.

As I said earlier, I consider this site family and you are enough of an overseeer to enable us to help ourselves. Ha ha - at least when my computer isn't having intermittent "connectivity problems."

Tonight, Lynn and I did the first exercise in the Couples book and I plan to continue.

When I got home last Tues. Lynn said that she has gotten to the point of no return. If I came up with one more excuse as to why I didn't go to therapy or why I didn't start to change away from my former behavior. 

She also said that when I told her about getting the paint out of my pants, that she took it as Little Danny trying to show Mommy Lynn how good a boy he was. That wasn't the case at all, I was just surprised that the paint came out as easy as it did. I also laughed at myself when I fell into the paint. Giggle! When I called her that night, I asked how things were going, she told me about everyone in the neighborhood. When I came home she told me that she really needed to talk but I rambled on about the paint in my pants. I didn't ask her specifically what was going on with her, so she never stopped me and said Dan, I have to talk about ....

She and I both agree that our major failing is our failure to communicate. This is more my fault as I never learned to really communicate. The only time I tried was when I got back from Nam, and I tried explaining things going on with me and was told that things going that way were for the better. I now feel that this wasn't fair to me or to the girl that I was engaged to. (High School Sweetheart)

Today I was trying to frame in a window, not exactly the way Lynn said that she wanted it, Hey, when you do it, you do it your way; when she does it, she does it her way. and I was having one of what Lynn would call a F----------- day. I couldn't seem to get it done right. I took most of the day to do a 2 or 3 hour job. 15 min if I had heard Lynn.

Trubble,

I see that everyone is offering you goodies so I hope that this means that your going to stick around. The clues that you left me at the hatchery weren't very clear, remember we have 7 cats and trying to read one cat's hints is particularly hard especially where trout are concerned. Now if it were catfish, I may have spotted them right off. I'm feeling very insecure FakeDaddyDan, like you don't love me. Or, you love LOCO more. And, I'm tired of acting like this isn't bothering me when it's clear to me that you don't love me because if you did, you would have found me. Then, I finally go home and FakeMommy grounds me. It's all your fault. (Pawprint - images cause crashes.)

Hugs to all, big hugs to those to whom I never posted to personally

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dan, you've been away, but you're still the same Dan I know.

"I think that if one shares some satirical essays or drawings about a certain political party or belief, that person should also have the good grace to laugh when this sort of thing is directed at their political beliefs."

You missed it Dan. You read what Asha said and completely missed what I said (surprise surprise). My response to Asha's email was a good-natured satire. A laugh. A laugh was not what she wanted. She was looking for "engagement". No Steve. If satire and sarcasm, when overused as with you, lose their humor. You use satire as a way of getting your anger across. Which is why, I think, you are so sensitive to when you think Asha is doing same, even when she's not. 

Rather than me repost it all again, maybe you could just read my posts Dan. Maybe? Ouchhh!

 Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Hi Everyone, B. here,

Lynn, a belated happy birthday to you!

Haven't read #12 yet so I just hope everyone's fine. Was glad to see Dan's back! Hi Dan!

I have been feeling a great relief since last week. It even gave me more strength to keep my boundaries with H. This is what happened (the main part, and as short as I can...):

I go to shiatsu almost every week. His name is Roman. He also does crystals, healing, acupuncture and others stuff, including something called B.A.T, which I can't describe. He has some sort of a small pendulum (don't know how to call it in English), which he uses to determine what we are going to do that day and for the BAT stuff etc. So we did BAT. He lets the pendulum point to somethings on boards full of words, and he tells me it came up with: the year 1968, you (I) are 6 years old, something stolen, and fear of pain.

I start thinking, what can that mean. I know my fear of pain started sometime between ages 4-7 for me (I became hysterical about blood tests, for example, and I wasn't before), it's not the first time these items come up, but I never understood why. I have always considered this the most wonderful period of my life. I still don't know what I am supposed to get in touch with, but I start to feel pain in the pit of my stomach. With Roman's help I "sit with the feeling" (actually I'm lying on my back...:-) ) and fear comes up in the form of shivers etc. I still see nothing. I don't remember anything.

Roman urges me to "go into the feeling". I am afraid, actually, but I do that (ok, of course he's doing some hokus-pokus to help me, with healing or something). And what do I see?

I see the first floor of the house we lived in at that time (for a few months). We lived mostly in the second floor. On the first there was the entrance, a staircase, one big locked room on the right (the pretty guest room, which the owners locked up - it was a rented house), my father's study on the left, and to the left of the stairs - a coat closet, in a narrow passage to a cellar, I think (never got as far as the cellar).

When I saw the closet, I told him my memories about it. My father told us that in this closet lived a witch (a Russian witch called Baba Yaga [read like: bubba yugga] - my father is an expert on all kinds of literatures and cultures, among other things) among the coats. Also, he would get a black button out of there and show it to us. My sister (3 at the time) would scream and cry in terror, crying out: "cockroach!!!! take it away!!!" and my father would laugh and show her: "look! it's just a plain black button! it's not a cockroach at all!" But it didn't help, she was still screaming and crying in terror that it IS, and to take it away.

He did this many times, telling about the witch, then laughing and saying of course there is no witch here (I think AFTER my sister would get scared he would say he was just kidding and open the closet wide to show her there was no witch there at all). I clearly remember how his hand looks with the button on it (a small button, like from the inside pocket of a jacket, which is where it probably fell from).

Telling this, I suddenly saw a monster standing right there in the dark passage between the wall and the closet! A very tall being, reaching almost the ceiling. Very thin, too, but wrapped in a dark cloak from neck to feet. I see no face (too dark) but the creature does have two frightening eyes (like eyes of an angry "cartoon" dragon or something) which look straight at me!!!

Roman asked me if there is any grown up there who can help me. I check: mother, father - no way. Grandmother (father's mother, who loves me and is very close to me) - no, not even her. "Nobody" I say. "not even my grandma". Why, Roman asks. I say that she wouldn't believe me. Roman says: "I believe you".

I realise that they can't help me, they can't protect me. And then I realise that my father can't protect me because he is the one who is frightening me!

Roman knows my father, so he gets it when I get it: This monster IS my father! (my father is very tall and thin, and for a 6 year old he probably looked almost as tall as the ceiling...)

This realisation came as a shock to me. I have never actually seen this monster before in my life, but I KNEW that 6-year-old B. knew it existed, but was reluctant or afraid to SEE it.

I started crying like a 6 year old (I have a 3 year old daughter, I could actually feel that my cry was like hers and not like a grown-up's), and when I talked, I knew it was not me, the 39 year old, but me the 6 year old. I said, how could he have done this to us? Why? He was our beloved father, he was the one who should have protected us - and instead he frightened us on purpose, again and again! My sister cried and screamed in terror - and he laughed! How could he do this to us?

I suddenly realised: it was not the button, it was not the witch, it was not the coats or the closet - it was HE who frightened us! The way he suddenly turned into a monster. It's like when your body guard tries to assassinate you! Daddy, you're the one who is supposed to protect me! Where are you? Where did this monster come from?

Even now, I see this monster and I'm still afraid!

And I also realise a very important thing: what I did, as a 6 year old (Dr. Irene, here's a glimpse into how abusers and co-dependents are made!).

My sister, who is "mama's girl", is an abuser. Notice: she had the "freedom" to feel and show her feelings. She was afraid, and acted afraid.

I, who was "daddy's girl" (was and is. I am very close to my father), did not show any fear. I laughed too. I tried to tell my younger sister RATIONALLY (Rationality is a great escape from feelings. This is my father's way, and come to think of it - just now I get it, now while writing to you!!! - he was about 6-7 at the time his beloved father suddenly left for another woman, abandoning his 3 children as well as his wife) that there is no cockroach, just a button, and no witch, just coats.

What a lie! What a fake! What a pretence!

I was just as afraid, but I hid it from him and from her. Why?

When I was 9 and she was 6, and our parents left us alone at home, I used to frighten her!!!! We had both seen a scary film about some monk, and I would hide and say "monk!!!" in a scary voice, and laugh when she screamed in terror, and tell her there is no monk, it's just me!

My therapist said this is the classic text book example to what is called "identification transference" or something (Dr. Irene or Trubble, please correct my poor psychology English!).

I was scared. So I scared her. Seeing the fear "out there" calmed me down, because it was not inside me, and I could identify with my sister's fear. (Dr. Irene, do feel free to correct my explanation for the benefit of the cat box... I'm not sure I remember it correctly).

This is what my father did: he scared us and watched our reaction. That calmed his fear. I was daddy's girl. So I imitated HIS solution: detach from your feelings, pretend they don't exist, rely on rationality, fake yourself. I chose the "pretending I'm not afraid" reaction, whereas my sister chose the "I'm scared, I'm helpless, help me!" reaction. We only had 2 role models, and we each chose the one most available us.

Just a few days before the session with Roman I wrote here that I found out what stresses me so much around people: that I HIDE myself, my true feelings, my true needs, and I am afraid that people will "find me out". I know for sure, that this realization is what enabled me to finally look the monster in the eye and discover the root of it.

It also goes well with a psychological theory I have: that as a parent, you start hurting your child uncontrollably (if you did not heal yourself) when your child reaches the age you yourself were hurt. My father's father became a monster when he was 6-7. So when his firstborn reached this age, he became a monster too.

Roman told me to do a daily meditation, where I the grown up help, hug and protect me the 6 year old, who is standing there a few feet away from the monster.

It was not the first time this period comes up in my life. One reflexologist even suggested that I might have been molested at this period, but I always knew I wasn't, so it remained a puzzle until last week. My father used to hit me until I was 15, but I knew it wasn't that either. Now I feel such a relief it's amazing.

Oh, and what was stolen?

I think maybe my childhood was stolen. My trust in my father. My feelings, or the right to let them be seen. My trust in the world at large. Maybe other things too.

Asha, I hope you liked this story too... :-)

Dr. Irene, I'd love to hear your comments on how this connects with becoming an abuser or a co-dependent. It seems to me, that co-dependents are great in hiding their painful feelings from themselves, which in turn prevents them from keeping their boundaries. Maybe I'll do an article when I catch up. I think it's a great topic!

Love you all! B.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Asha, B. here,

Read a few #12 posts, so here goes:

I think the political problem has nothing to do with politics. You feel Steve is mocking and belittling you. This hurts, humiliates and angers you. Yep. He is.

(BTW [by the way], to Steve:

I feel from your posts that "laughing" "grinning" and such are something you consider positive and innocent, but I feel is not at all. I feel it is a way for you to express anger by attack. What I have just written is not a learned analysis. It is MY FEELING when I read you, and my feeling only. Please do not answer me about that, because I do not intend to argue at all and I get really sad and upset when I read your "explaining" posts, where you try to prove that you were misunderstood. I admit right away I may be totally wrong, but I think it would serve you to think about it: Maybe, if B. feels anger in what I Steve think are jokes, maybe Asha feels that too. Maybe there is something in this. Maybe I should look at it.)

Back to Asha:

About the dog: Since I feel like Steve in this, I don't know what to say... It IS a good question why you chose someone who can't stand dogs in bed... (I love cats. Trubble, you can sleep in my bed anytime! But a dog - ugh...) Yeah! (pawprint)

About the kids: What do you feel? Forget the experts' advice. Do you feel love for them? Do you care for them? Then tell them so. They will not feel abandoned by not seeing you much, but they would feel abandoned and unloved by your detachment. Tell them your feelings about them and say it has nothing to do with whether it works out with Steve or not.

However, if you don't like them, and you only put up with them for Steve's sake - then by all means detach. You don't need to say anything at all. When you meet them you meet them, if not - OK.

Children who are torn between the grown ups in their lives mostly feel a lack of love and caring. They feel nobody wants them. If you do want them in any way, it is very important that you let them know all your good and kind feelings towards them. It will be very important for them that you care about them even if you never see them again.

All this is just what I think. If it does not feel right to you, disregard it all!

Much love,

B.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Wow what a lot on the catboard today. Too much to take in after a sleepless night but it is great to see Dan and Steve back.

I couldn't care less about ISP providers. They don't know me and I don't know anyone who works for one. Nothing in this world is secret and I had a grandmother who really did work for MI6! (true).

But Steve, I am intrigued to know what they do with the information?

Surely they have to sign confidentiality clauses. Surely it is a big deal if they reveal information? 

Also, we all have our own reality don't we? I don't think that anyone's reality is the same as anyone else's and we have to put things in the perspective of how we understand the other person sees them. I think my husband is controlling through the way he uses the housework issue. But he may be convinced this is the one thing that he can do to show he cares. My reality is I feel controlled. His might be that he thinks he is doing this to show he cares. Until we can talk we will both have our own feelings and reality and neither of us could adjust. It will take both of us to find some trust to resolve it.

There are things I think we don't share as we are not happy about strangers knowing. That is life.

love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Hi B - Asha here.

Interesting story. I doubt your father understood the profound effect he was having on you. As a child I used to see things in the dark - hands coming toward me, and I used to think there were eyes in the walls. I guess if an adult encouraged me to believe in this stuff, rather than reassuring me that I was safe, I might have felt as you did.

As for the posts about the political email, I don't know I felt mocked and belittled so much as shocked about what I saw as an angry, distrustful reaction to something that I meant to share in the spirit of humour. I felt the word "pinko" was used to demean though. Yes. The smiley felt to me like a justification for the rest of the content. Yes. Steve does not see how angry he is. He does not feel angry in a way he would recognize.

I understand now, that Steve thought I was intentionally pushing his buttons and that this was another "attack" on him. Problem is, if I worried about every button I might push when I discuss something, I would probably stop discussing anything, because there's just no way of knowing. Right. And for me to start thinking that way would be really restrictive. I remember him saying that I was "pushing his buttons" when he once asked me to help pick a restaurant. I was craving the food at a particular place that he doesn't like much, and said so. He got angry because he felt I was pushing his buttons. What to do? If "kept trying" not to push his buttons I would be frequently walking on eggshells. It's just not healthy for me to do that. Right. OK to request a restaurant he doesn't like. He can always say "no."

B, maybe you had some negative experience with dogs. My dog is extremely smart and so faithful and loving. He has been with me almost 12 years, through thick and thin. I wrote a poem once about dogs called "Angels with Fur". Maybe I'll dig it up sometime. Having said all that - I don't expect a partner to let him sleep on the bed. But I don't like shutting him out of the room. It would be different if it was a new dog with new rules. But he's been fairly spoiled throughout his life, and I believe it was hard on him when he was first made to sleep outside. From the bed, to the leaky doghouse - at least that's how *I* felt. Anyway, it bothered *me*.

And about Steve's kids - yes I love them and care about them. I just didn't know *what* specifically would be appropriate to explain. I would never, as Steve seemed to think, say or insinuate mean things about Steve. This is why I asked. I think yours and Dr. I's advice (catbox 11) about telling them they are cared for and loved is what they need. I can even do this in a Xmas card.

Hi Jay. Hi everyone else.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear all,

AJ from back home again, with very mixed feelings about the weekend. We started of real nice, lots of love and laughter and generally easy feelings. Open fire, nice food and wine. Next morning was ok too. Mist all around, which made things kind of mystical. We went out to a nearby city and on our way back C. got a phone call from a friend. He talked to her and did not say anything after finishing the call. I was really upset but, was not quite sure why and felt it was maybe not ok to want to know who he talked to and why didn't he tell me by himself. Felt kind of stupid. He noticed I was upset and started trying to get me in a better mood. Later he would say he noticed I was upset but did not have a clue as to why.

Later that evening he asked a couple of times and I said I wasn't sure yet what exactly was the matter, so I wanted to talk maybe later. He said he would really like to know and I gotten him curious. Then I started crying (wrong, should have said what I wanted to say in a respectful and dignified manner, haha :-)) and tried to explain I felt left out when he talked on the phone and said he was out for the weekend but didn't say he was there with me. He got mad, and said so you feel I should tell everyone I am here with you, the situation is still much to uncertain for that and only my best friends know. The I said it wasn't just that, I felt left out when he did not tell me who called.

Later we talked a little more and I tried to tell him for me telling some one your with who called is a very normal thing. You shut the other person out if you don't (Am I wrong on that?) Said I would tell no matter who I was with, give some kind of explanation, like, a colleague, or a friend called for this or that.

We the got into a major fight and I don't even remember what was said. I just remember he really did not understand the point or else made a very good show. He said that by saying things like this I was restricting him, and I answered if that was restricting, he was restricting me the same way by saying I could not say that I was upset.

Then I wanted to get out to cool of and told him, I am going out for a little while, you just think what you want, or don't think, whatever. He got very upset and said: so now it's all my responsibility again, I have to decide again, I am the bad guy again. I was really flabbergasted and answered, we both had to think and we both were responsible and that I wanted to go out to sort my feelings out and that I thought maybe He would like t do the same. Then he apologized for making everything so difficult again.

I still went out after a while and he said, please don't stay out too long. I said Ok, I won't. When I got back he tried to lighten up the situation and whistled at me. I just said: I want to be able to have these conversations without having to fear it means the end of a relation. He said there is no we and we don't have a relation. The he said it's just too early for me to talk about things like this, we will talk later, ok? I said ok, I am tired also anyway. We sort of kissed and made up and went to bed. He tried have sex, which I declined, we hugged though. A lot of soul searching that night, but I slept, and thought, not sleeping won't do me any good. In the morning we sort of made up.

Long story, eh. But I feel good about having said what I wanted, not sure about that I apologized for overreacting, but not too bad either, and rather good about being able to make up and not letting this fight ruin the rest of the trip. I don't not know whether I was right about being upset, I feel I was, it is shutting someone out. Anyway, even is I was not right, I think he should listen to me and respect my feelings.

Lots of talking. Did not have time to read al the post yet. Will try to do that tomorrow.

ONE QUESTION ABOUT THANKSGIVING. A FRIEND OF MINE IS INVITED TO A THANKSGIVING PARTY AND IS NOT SURE WHETHER SHE IS SUPPOSED TO BRING PRESENTS OR DO ANYTHING SPECIAL. CAN ONE OF YOU AMERICANS PLEASE FILL ME IN, SO I CAN INFORM HER?

Love you all and read and comment n all (LOL) your postings tomorrow. AJ

jkm (this message comes from the cat)

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Asha: "what I saw as an angry, distrustful reaction to something that I meant to share in the spirit of humour. I felt the word pinko was used to demean though. The smiley felt to me like a justification for the rest of the content. "

Pinko means communist. It was meant as a joke. But you know what? I don't have to prove to Asha or B or anyone how I meant it. I know how I meant it. And Asha calling me angry is sad. She is the one who was angry. I simply said, "Ok - I'm not responsible for your anger. It's your choice." 

Will anyone read this and believe I wasn't angry? Or will Asha's word be the end-all? I notice that some people here seem to miss a lot of what I post. I wonder what is the reason for that? Steve, I think you are both angry. But, I don't think you realize just how angry you are. Anger is "normal" for you.

Asha: "If "kept trying" not to push his buttons I would be frequently walking on eggshells. It's just not healthy for me to do that."

I never asked you to stop pushing my buttons. Push them all you want. But, be prepared for me to get offended or push you away. But please don't get angry when they don't work anymore. That's what I feel you are doing. It's not healthy for me to respond to your button-pushing.

Asha: "I believe it was hard on him when he was first made to sleep outside. From the bed, to the leaky doghouse - at least that's how *I* felt. Anyway, it bothered *me*."

The dog begs to be allowed outside at night. When we first allowed - yes allowed, not made - him outside, it was warm weather and he loved it. Asha coddles him too much and won't allow him to live life to his fullest. That bothers me. What do you care? I hate to see a dog get over-domesticated to the point of becoming hopelessly dependant on a human. I love dogs. Just not in the bedroom or on the furniture in the office. Fine. Treat your dog as you wish. You're out of your boundaries otherwise.

Asha really does coddle the dog. It's like a mother who doesn't want her son to get older than 2 years old because he's just so cute like that. I think the dog has been "created" to be extremely dependant on Asha because Asha is extremely dependant on the dog. So what? Jealous? (Don't take this as a putdown - it's typical stuff Steve. Please, just look at it.)

I love that dog. I sometimes think I'm the only one who really understands him. Sometimes I feel he's looking at me saying "help, I don't know what to do. This is how she wants me to be." It's her dog.

B said: "I feel from your posts that "laughing" "grinning" and such are something you consider positive and innocent, but I feel is not at all. I feel it is a way for you to express anger by attack."

I respectfully disagree. I am laughing and grinning because I want to. When I am angry - I am angry. I use humor to escape someone else's anger and aggression though. Maybe that's what you are seeing. You don't see your anger Steve. There is an undertone to your laughing and grinning and satire.

It's my way of saying "go ahead, yell all you want. I'm going to keep on smiling and maintain my balance."

This may be frustrating to someone who is used to dancing a certain way. Perhaps it's frustrating to you B because you dance like Asha. You would be irritated at someone displaying a complete disregard for your wish to have them "dance your dance". Maybe?

Anyway, I need to do what's right for me. If I don't want to dance some else's dance, especially the dance of anger, why should I? I've done that way too often in the past. This is part of my growth. Sometimes I wonder if it's my growth that is actually concerning Asha now. Perhaps she's afraid of getting left behind. Perhaps she's afraid of looking in the mirror. Of course she'd be frightened to be left behind. But, that's not what's going on now. You are not growing in these posts. You have retreated to a position of defensiveness and fear. Please check it out Steve.

In relationships, usually both have learned bad patterns and dances. If only one chooses to admit it, and change things, then the other may outwardly be very happy (perhaps even feel victorious) but later, when it starts actually affecting their life, they may become confused and feel threatened.

I'd like to say this loud and clear so Dan and B and anyone else who misses my posts can see it FOR SURE.

I WAS NOT ANGRY WITH THE EMAIL ASHA SENT ME. SHE WAS ANGRY WITH MY HUMOROUS REPLY. SHE WAS ANGRY AT THE WORD "PINKO". SHE WAS ANGRY BECAUSE I WAS HUMOROUS. SHE WAS ANGRY BECAUSE I DIDN'T DANCE HER DANCE. SHE HAD BUILT THIS ANGER UP FROM THE PREVIOUS DAYS IN WHICH I WOULD NOT RESPOND TO HER INVITATIONS TO RIDE THE MERRY-GO-ROUND. THAT IS WHY SHE THOUGHT I WAS ANGRY. BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T ACCEPT THAT I WASN'T. I HAD TO BE ANGRY. I MUST BE ANGRY. SHE "NEEDED" ME TO BE ANGRY.

I'm not. We disagree.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Asha: "I remember him saying that I was "pushing his buttons" when he once asked me to help pick a restaurant."

I don't remember saying that. However, if you are referring to trying to drag me into the WPT, I can imagine I would feel you were trying to "control" me. You know (and knew then) that I never ever want to patronize an establishment that rips people off by putting a 1 inch cube of fish inside a huge chunk of greasy batter and calls it a piece of fish. Grin.

You knew it was the last restaurant on earth I would want to go to. So why did you choose it? What is that all about? I've never done that to you. Why are you taking it so seriously! Like she's giving you a message?

It amazes me that you can remember something from several years ago but you can't remember last week/weekend. Absolutely amazing.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Steve

You and I see things very differently. No point in trying to get you to see it my way. I only know what's healthy and okay for me.

Why on earth would I "want" you to be so angry? I *don't* want you to be angry. I wish you peace and love, and me the same.

Maybe if you reread your last post at some future time, you'll see the "Monty Python" tone to the bit about anger. Or maybe not. Personally, I don't think you are being truthful to yourself. Maybe you're reacting defensively. Or maybe it's just impossible for you to see it from my point of view. That's okay, I accept this.

Anyway - peace, love, my prayers to you.

I wish both of us great things in life. I can't follow the path you are headed because I know in my heart it's not healthy for me. If you must travel that journey then I will accept it, with my best wishes.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Lynn. nothing better than having the bath bathable in! Hope that the dog is o.k.

Steve. I don't understand why you would lose trust in someone who is concerned for your kids.

In a funny way your post helped me see how my husband might be feeling although now he has come round to seeing it helps me to post.

I suspect anyway that anyone outside the codependency experience is likely to bored by what we all say. I have no idea what you or Asha look like or say Theressa who I could conceivably meet by accident one day.

Would you prefer Asha to talk to your mutual friends or to get no help at all. Part of the value of the catbox is people are honest with each other. Most of the time we are all saying is this right or wrong and not *I* am right and Trubble aka Dr. Irene is pretty straight.

How can Asha know your boundaries after the event?

Steve and Asha both, Sometimes in life we can have real genuine misunderstandings that develop into a big thing.

I always thought my husband was really mean for his reaction when I got an upper second degree. That was some achievement as I hated school and did all the real qualifications after I left. Over the years I put that into the 'covert abuse category.' I felt really put down that he never shared my delight.

That formed a lot of my feeling I was always put down. Because of my own lack of self esteem I somehow believed that maybe it wasn't so good. It wasn't a first degree after all. I missed the fact that I did this as someone who grew up in a dysfunctional family and had to work while she studied as she left home with lots of baggage, young.

So being codependent meant that I only had self esteem if my husband validated this.

I found out something about 2 years ago. We went to different universities and THEY HAD DIFFERENT GRADING SYSTEMS.....For me a 2.1 meant very good nearly excellent. His system 2.1 meant really not very good at all. His system had +++ added in and mine did not and A---A+++.

Our reality was different. The problem was one of communication. I was unable to hear because of my insecurity and he was unable to hear because of a completely different reference system to mine.

Years for me of pain. Just because of a misunderstanding.

And easy for me to see where the roots came from. In my family I had to be the 'clever' one. My sister had to be sporty. Success for me as a child was therefore measured in 'cleverness'. So what began as a minor misunderstanding that could have been sorted out reverberated down the years.

I wonder for both of you what the root of the difficulty is.

As far as I understand it. Steve is offended that Asha assumed he supported a political party. Asha is offended Steve sent her an satirical article with offensive words in about her sort of supported party but Asha says she doesn't support any particular party. Neither of you actually seems to have strong feelings about these parties. They are used to communicating in this abstract way, where little is really said but much is implied.

So this has to be about something else. I think that it is about buttons getting pushed for both of you . But neither of you really intended to push buttons. But they are pushed.

So and I may be wrong is the need to look each of you at the buttons and what the source is.

B. What you share is really spooky. What I can tell you is that my daughter started to get difficult the same age as I did. I did not abuse her. But a lot of the same patterns are repeating themselves.

AJ it sounds as if there were good and creative bits to your weekend/

Trubble. I am not offering you food you will be a fat cat if I do!

Meantime back here at the ranch.. Taken by surprise at husband coming in early for no apparent reason. I felt almost frightened but I don't know why.

He has taken the agenda without asking if I finished writing it. But I think I will just let it go.

love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box and Trubble and WOW, Another day of intense group therapy or what?

Lynn here. First to AJ with Thanksgiving party. Turkey and Stuffing and cranberries are a traditional Thanksgiving meal. Family sits down and gives thanks for Everything they have to be Thankful for. At a party I would suggest that your friend might want to bring something like a tray of fudge or even a pumpkin pie. Is this to encourage the day of Thankfulness or just a party? Either way, something to show the hostess appreciation would be nice. (I'd call hostess and say "What can I bring?")

OK STEVE, I HEAR YOU, YOU AREN'T ANGRY. I never thought you were. Once upon a time (In a bar, of course) I kicked a guy out near closing time. He went to my bosses' house and woke him up and told him he better get to the bar quick as it was full of "pot smokers and communists." My boss came flying in with his pajama tops still on and probably a gun in his pocket. I was getting ready to close up and and 3 guys there having one for the road. We talked about it the next day. My boss apologized to me. He felt so dumb and knew I could handle "pot smokers." He remembered the threat of communism though, and half asleep he panicked and came to my rescue. It really was silly in this day and age (even 20 years ago). We later joked that we could serve red beer as the drink of the week.

For me? I couldn't comprehend. I raised my eyebrows and thought .... Well I don't know what I thought, but I can guarantee I never thought of communists infiltrating my bar.

Moral of my story. What's yours? Why are you letting Asha bother you?? Or is this an old fight with another reason?

As for both of you and the jealousy. Wellllllll. I say thin with thumbs locked under the chin and fingers waving. This is tricky as I haven't told Dan about you know what, but I know from my own experience that it is nice to know that there is someone out there who wants us. It's just that if I wanted them I'd be there, not here. Dan, too. Ex fiancé. This is his story and he started it in Buddha with David and didn't continue. The gist of it is, I encouraged him to call her. His best friend, still, is her brother. He came and visited us a while back and he always talks to me about his sister. Dan managed to take on a load of guilt about how the way her life turned out (she got divorced and got well again). But... I said she might need to talk. Especially as they got disengaged and NEVER talked after that. Over 30 years ago. I can't imagine being jealous over her. He's welcome to go see her and take her to lunch or whatever.

Moral of this. If you and Asha wanted other people why are you both posting?????????????

As for Asha. Let her push all the buttons she wants. Visa versa.

Brief interruption. Just got a call from a neighbor about the now missing cats in the neighborhood. Only one stray is still out here. Dan went looking. I swear. I want this guys balls in a bear trap! And I want to sit and watch. One of those for Theressa. I can't talk when I get like this, bt the eye contact says what I think of him. Flames come out of my nostrils and smoke billows around my red eyes.

Brings me to pets in the bed. I personally love it. Like we're all curled up in a kennel together. I even sleep better with the sun shining through a window and the bunch curled up with me.

B, with the pendulum. Oh, I hear that one. Not that I was raised with the fear like that, but I had a dread fear of sharks for zillions of years. Didn't understand why, either. I'm a long way from any beaches. Finally figured it out. When I was quite young (I read at an early age) I read a story in one of my dad's magazines like Argosy or Saga about a shark eating a woman. I can still conjure up the picture illustrated in the book. I started learning about sharks and finally went on a fishing trip off the California coast. (I took pictures, I don't like to kill fish either). Saw lots of shark fins. Got better. Moral of this story. If you don't get in the deep water you don't get eaten by a shark. Actually, there are more people in my immediate area who have been eaten or mauled by bear than there are shark attacks a year, and I still go into the woods. Fear of the unknown, maybe??

Jay, Dan tries through housework to make things better.

Ok, now for Dan and I. Things are better. I will never in a million years be able to dis-engage by shutting my mouth. I've got more of a chance of being eaten by a shark. I'll eat the shark RealMommy. But I truly don't care about the outcome. My life isn't dependent on a future with Dan. That doesn't mean I don't care for him. It doesn't mean I'm leaving. It means he can leave and I won't die! It also means I might have a life without him. I don't want one, but I could get one.

Hello Trubble. Hi. Around here you would have to do your own fishing. I'm glad I don't have to kill cows to eat beef. That would turn me into a vegetarian. And I hate most vegis.  You know I'm mad at FakeDaddyDan? He loves LOCO more than me.

Bingo, we got a witness who released a cat in a trap. Now I have to look up State Laws. I think there is something about these not being allowed in residential areas. His kid helped him dispose of some garbage bags and told a neighbor that his dad caught some skunks. Can you imagine what his adult life will be with this kind of upbringing? And he's a great kid. Now. Meouchhh! (pawprint)

Astrid. My dad is meticulous about his house and home and still takes great care of it. That may be why I have a problem now with none caring about the home we live in. It's very important to me. This is my space on earth and I want it to be as good as it can be.

PS Dan put some staples out where I can locate them and told me where they are! Happy Day.

Love you all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Calamity Jane aka Lynn here (with the L this time).

I did learn years ago that there is a constructive way of handling things. Before you all think I'm going to shoot this cat monster, we've both been on the phone and have the ball rolling to get him busted. Constructively, this town needs a Humane Society and so we are rolling on this, too. That's my RealMommy! (pawprint)

Have a lot of feelers out and have a lot of phone calls coming in. I'm not going to do anything illegal. Just glad I'm not God or Buddha sometimes. My justice wouldn't be fun.

On my high horse again and with love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Jay again. A sort of vent.

But first Lynn and Dan, what you need is a cat you can prove the guy has injured so you can prove your case.

I would be mad if it was happening here.

O.K Dr Irene; as I predicted the poem was ignored. Their loss.

Tonight I feel I am being driven crazy. Not engaging. But I want to scream. Asked my son about his homework which he rarely does. The problem is he is so bright he never fails. Husband mumbles something into beard and I ask him to speak up. He is in charge of homework. Fine by me if he wants the hassle. But then in front of son how son won't be able to do his homework if the home is emotionally unstable. Son looks at me as if his Father is off his rocker and I say the discussion is inappropriate. Husband keeps trying to restart but to give him credit he did stop himself once.

All evening it has been like this. Similar things. It all seems so petty.

And he has been sweeping up. I wish I knew why this annoys me. I should maybe be grateful.

Another poem.

Tell me Not in this roundabout way Things I need to know

Tell me In words clearly Things I need to see

Tell me In easy actions What I need to do

Tell me Without my guessing What you mean

Tell me Without double meaning Who you are

Tell me Before I tell you When I leave

I think there is still something inside refusing to accept what the person I am married to is like. I want a soul mate and I have someone who seems to live on another planet and I can't seem to reach them.

Things haven't always been this bad. I just can't make it out at all.

Why is he harming us all? I used to think maybe it was just 'genius mentality.' but I live in a town full of geniuses and at least a few of them are normal.

And what is it about me that just can't accept him as he is. Is it that some things are unacceptable or I am not tolerant enough or is that the codependency speaking?

I hope codependency Is an illness as I would like to recover! I wish there were pills for it! (LOL)

If only I could be at a point where I wasn't bothered. Lynn how did you get there?

I am just so sick of not being able to be together as a family. Just want one evening where there is a proper harmony. They used to happen when the kids were younger.

And I wish I knew why I keep making excuses for him. O.K., so he lost his best friend who died. That was my best friends husband. So I lost a lot too. But he hasn't made efforts to find other friends. Other people feel it badly too.

Some days I wonder if the problem is he has no capacity to feel like most of us do. If there is a real inability for which he can't be responsible as it is part of his make up to feel or empathize.

Except it is only me it seems that feels this is the case. Don't jump to that conclusion unless he's had the opportunity to hurt. Then he is likely to feel, if he is able. I've not met anyone unable to feel; I've met many who need help to feel.

I have as they say to get a life again. Realized I just stay in at present unless actually dragged out. This is silly as there must be plenty round here to do.

But what?

love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Jay,

Lynn again, We have a cat and a neighbor who freed it. Wishes now he took a picture and stole the trap, but he was concentrating on freeing the kitty. Have some other legal thingies that are rolling, too.

As for detach. That works better for me than disengage. I had 3 weeks without Dan and truly had pretty much fun. Rude awakening. Kinda like he died and I had to get on with it. In my mind it worked.

I hear you about the irritants. Dan could say good morning and tick me off. In my mind its crazy. You're doing that one. It is like he died and went to somewhere and I mourned and grieved (our lost years?) and just got on with doing "MY Thing," It's not even without him. And the feeling is strange. It's not that I don't care. It's just that I don't care what the outcome is anymore. Maybe because I know there is life beyond Dan. I think it had a little to do with ego, too. I don't need him for EVERYTHING. Like maybe he's here on approval and if he doesn't workout I return him to the manufacturer and get a full refund. Or, maybe you stop caring, see what happens, and don't return him. 

Two weeks ago I couldn't have explained it, and I was trying hard to understand disengage. What ever, when you get it you'll know it, right Trubble? No matter what name it's called. It's in your soul, heart and just an awakening of awareness. We really don't need the bums when they act like that. We can only give so much and can only expect so much. If it doesn't work we have to know we gave our all and then go to another plan. Healthy indifference I guess. Yeah RealMommy.(pawprint)

Good Luck and If I don't talk tomorrow, we'll be back next Monday.

Happy Thanksgiving All,

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Steve here

Jay: "Steve. I don't understand why you would lose trust in someone who is concerned for your kids."

Because I don't feel she respects my feelings. I feel she thinks that whatever she thinks is ok, is ok. It is Steve. It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter. She can think what she thinks. You don't have to agree with you. You do need to respect her feelings. That's fine for her. Not for me. I have this boundary. I need to know that someone considers what I think when it comes to my kids. Maybe I'm unreasonable but here I stand. So be it.

Jay: "Would you prefer Asha to talk to your mutual friends or to get no help at all. Part of the value of the catbox is people are honest with each other. Most of the time we are all saying is this right or wrong and not *I* am right and Trubble aka Dr. Irene is pretty straight"

I don't understand where I asked Asha not to talk to someone?? She can talk to anyone. It's her right. I encourage her to get help wherever she can. Where did you get the idea I don't approve of the catbox? I like everyone here and although I disagree with some at times, I still realize that they are attempting to be helpful.

Jay: "How can Asha know your boundaries after the event?"

I don't know, and it doesn't matter anyway. My boundaries are for me, not her. Right. But, sometimes your boundaries (and Asha's) are a bit whacko. She can do anything she wants. I'm just not going to partake when it crosses my boundaries. I don't throw the fence up around anyone else, it's just goes up around me. I don't know how to be any clearer.

Jay: "Neither of you actually seems to have strong feelings about these parties. So this has to be about something else. I think that it is about buttons getting pushed for both of you . But neither of you really intended to push buttons. But they are pushed."

I think you may be getting very close to something here Jay. However, time and distance is probably necessary right now. Asha is calling my feelings "bizzare" to my face, and I don't want to engage it. It's another button I have to remove. She knows exactly what to say to hurt me, but I'm not going to let it. It's OK to feel hurt!

Lynn: "OK STEVE, I HEAR YOU, YOU AREN'T ANGRY. I never thought you were."

Why is it Lynn, that you seem to be the only one here to see beyond into the next layer? Or do you just feel sorry for me getting all hen-pecked around the catbox? Do you really believe I'm not angry? If so, why can't other people see it? I know I'm not angry. But to convince others I almost have to get angry. Lynn is exceptional at empathizing Steve. But, on anger, you and I have "talked" about this before. First of all, anger is not a bad thing. It just is. And, you are angry. Promise. And, it's OK. Now you can hate me.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family,

Haven't read any of today's posts yet, just felt that I had to get on and say some things.

Lynn and I worked the first exercise in the couples book last night and I have to say that there were a few items that we both listed that the other never, and there were some items which we both listed. Top of the list for Lynn was Communication, and I left t off mine. After making and comparing lists we had to rate them and again there were different priorities. I have to admit that communication is a major priority. I just have to start because I'm not good at it as I posted last night. Later when we went to bed, she asked if there was anything that I wanted to say about the book. After some bantering back and forth, a light went on, I really should have started working this earlier in our relationship, like when I told Lynn "if it makes you feel better." Yep.

We were also talking about various other things and she brought up my X. Then said something about women getting breast implants, I told her that I didn't think that hers were too big or too small, just right. I have always liked Lynn's looks and wouldn't have her any other way. I do like long hair and Lynn's is slightly shorter than mine but she did let it grow for awhile, it got shoulder length, but she was uncomfortable with it and cut it down to a length she was comfortable with.

I used to tell Lynn that I didn't know what I would do if we ever split up, laying the burden of our relationship on her shoulders, also I didn't think that I could take care of myself as she does. I feel that this burden is now squarely on my shoulders, because I would have to take care of myself (which Lynn's vacation and the last two weeks of work have shown me that I can do. Yes!). Lynn has told me also, that if I continue or don't doesn't make a difference to her, and that she feels better about herself since making this decision. I now have two reasons for improving, 1) for myself and 2) for our relationship. :)

I didn't do a thing today, for some reason, I just couldn't get started on anything. I get upset with myself when I get like this because I have a couple of more things to do in Lynn's bathroom and some other items which I have (want) to get done. I don't beat myself up, I just get the now you have to catch up feelings. I usually get this way after a F-------- day, which I posted that I had yesterday, it's almost a hangover feeling, the best cure is to do nothing and then start fresh the next day, although tomorrow we have so much to do before we leave Thur that I won't be able to get back to it until next week.

Today, Lynn suggested that I call my High School Sweetheart again and see if we might get together for lunch while were back in our birthplace for Thanksgiving weekend. I think I will as there is a lot of catching up to do and a few things which I have to discuss with her just to get them off my chest. Like what?

Dr Irene, I have made a decision that I am going to tell the new therapist that I want to keep posting, I feel better when I do and who says that your way is better than hers or vice versa. Yippeee!  

Hugs to all

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000

S1

AJ

I would be uncomfortable if my partner wouldn't tell me who was on the phone.

When he says "there is no we" or that you don't have a "relationship", does that mean he is free to date other women? If so, are you okay about that? Maybe you both need to decide your boundaries about this and be clear to each other just what you do expect from each other. If you are clear and honest, then you can relax and trust in what the other is doing.

OTOH (on the other hand), if there was a history of him having to report to you everything that he said to anyone in a phone conversation, then his reaction might be something different. Defensive, maybe.

I would suggest asking him just how he sees the relationship as it stands now, and does he feel free to date, or even have sex with other women, or anything else you might be fearful of. Get it all out in the open, in an honest and trusting atmosphere.

***

I'm going to say bluntly some of the things I'm feeling about Steve's posts. I think he can handle it. This probably looks like (and maybe is?) engaging, but I feel like sometimes I "protect" him by not mentioning certain things that I feel. I don't really think the "protection" is good for him. No. He doesn't even want it, really. 

In regards to my earlier dog outside post - the dog did start to like being outside because he would get through the fence and take home garbage from the neighbors homes. This was a problem. Again, with the appropriate fenced in yard, and maybe if the dog from early on was conditioned to being out at night it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But this dog was an "inside" dog all his life. Steve objected in the beginning getting a doghouse for him but still wanted the dog outdoors. The only reason I can think of for that is that he wanted to punish *me*. I still feel bad that I initially went along with it.

Steve said: <<It's my way of saying "go ahead, yell all you want. I'm going to keep on smiling and maintain my balance.">> (about the smileys, etc.) Or another possible translation - you (Steve) can appear to keep your cool so that *I'm* the one that looks bad by blowing up. This way you can still express your aggression, and you can accuse me of being the "angry one". That's a common scenario. You have to pull your buttons in, so Steve can't push them - just like he has to pull his buttons in.

Jay - your poem about clarity and honesty is a good one. All this assuming someone is doing something to push your buttons, or wanting something and not expressing it just makes life more difficult. I am making a commitment in life to being honest to myself about my feelings. I think trust and clear communication are tops in relationships - trust that there are no hidden messages, and clearly communicating needs, desires, dreams, passions etc. Also an interest in the other person's well being and concern for their feelings.

I've been trying to think about what it is exactly I'm feeling right now. There was anger, but right now it's kind of a 'sick to my stomach' feeling. I have to quit focusing on things I have n